Do you believe in God?

[Famine]

So basically you have a problem with reality?

 

[Joey D]

I was intrigued by the reaction video as much because it is wonderfully amazing to see someone ACTUALLY talk about similarities as it is to see how many similarities there are. Seriously. I grew up in WNC (and I love it here! ), and there are people who will OPENLY hate me (and others of my church) simply because I am a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. It is downright weird at times. Seriously.

It's not weird. An individual who's Mormon can be the nicest person ever, many of the people I know are Mormon and would happily give you the shirt off their back. However, the LDS church as a whole is terrible with cultish behavior and teaches people to hate non-Mormons. Not everyone buys into that thankfully, but enough do that it makes being around a large number of Mormons unbearable. Not to mention, the church itself continues to be rather racist since they haven't shaken the teachings prior to 1978 and they're still deeply sexist as they teach women to "submit" to their husbands. Mormonism just doesn't work in the modern world.

 

[UKMikey]

Mormonism just doesn't work in the modern world.

It sure was hard to find a picture of him not smiling...

 

[Har1MAS1415]

I do.

 

[TRLWNC7396]

It seems like you're saying "God" has killed more than "Satan." "God" has killed and people have killed. All "Satan" did was..."lead"...whatever that means.

Your contention is with the accounting. It's the focus because you made it the focus, "questionable" or otherwise.

Really, this boils down to semantics. Either way, it just has to do with your personal view. (shrug)

Why does "Satan" have anything to do with it? What is the basis for the delusion that "Satan" has anything to do with it?

This is a dodge.

You also dodged my question regarding homosexuality, by the way.

Satan promotes evil. Therefore, if a person chooses to do evil, they have followed that prompting. The opposite is true.

However, you ALWAYS have a choice.

Rape isn't sex. Rape is violence. Rape is a violation of rights. Rape is about the power one has over another and nothing else.

I have to agree. Truly the most terrible thing that could ever happen. Even if it isn't full intercourse, any level of molesting or sexual forcing is beyond bad, and is a violation. Can't agree more. So sad....

It's not weird. An individual who's Mormon can be the nicest person ever, many of the people I know are Mormon and would happily give you the shirt off their back. However, the LDS church as a whole is terrible with cultish behavior and teaches people to hate non-Mormons. Not everyone buys into that thankfully, but enough do that it makes being around a large number of Mormons unbearable. Not to mention, the church itself continues to be rather racist since they haven't shaken the teachings prior to 1978 and they're still deeply sexist as they teach women to "submit" to their husbands. Mormonism just doesn't work in the modern world.

Wow... Not sure where to begin. But there are many very drastic problems with this. Let me think about how to respond decently.

 

[Danoff]

Satan promotes evil. Therefore, if a person chooses to do evil, they have followed that prompting. The opposite is true.

However, you ALWAYS have a choice.

With regard to real morality, this is necessarily true. With regard to supposedly supernaturally perfect morality, such as Judaism, Christianity, or Mormonism, it is not true. These religions teach the concept of a thought crime, and you do not always have a choice in what you think or how you feel.

I have to agree. Truly the most terrible thing that could ever happen.

Terrible, but not the most terrible.

 

[HenrySwanson]

Satan promotes evil. Therefore, if a person chooses to do evil, they have followed that prompting. The opposite is true.

Could it be argued that God has chosen evil in the past?

Also, I'm not sure why you responded to my post about a disorder concerning grief in that way...? Do you not have a response?

 

[TRLWNC7396]

Could it be argued that God has chosen evil in the past?

Also, I'm not sure why you responded to my post about a disorder concerning grief in that way...? Do you not have a response?

As man now is, God once was. As God now is, man may become.

It's always possible that God was once an imperfect man, just like us.

However, now that He is in the position He is, I am sure that he doesn't do anything evil.

As far as a grief disorder, that is an interesting question. Does a person with any mental disorder choose there illness? Not typically. I mean, yes, we can influence the mind with drugs or trauma, but typically there is not a choice.

Yes, you have asked a good question. At what point does grief and stress go from choice and/or the ability to overcome to something that can't be, and needs greater assistance.

I'm sure that each person has their own level of tolerance. And must be answered personally.

 

[Danoff]

As man now is, God once was. As God now is, man may become.

So where does God come from then?

 

[Joey D]

So where does God come from then?

Mormons believe, and I'm simplifying it here, that God was a man named Elohim who lived on another planet. That man became exalted through eternal progression and became God for us. God also, apparently, lives near a star or planet named Kolob, which may or may not be Sirius.

So if you want to boil it down to something simple, Elohim was a humanoid alien who was so good that he became God and took up residence 8.6 light years from Earth. Oh and 1 day on Kolob is equal to 1,000 years on Earth. It's talked about in the Pearl of the Great Price but I honestly don't understand it.

I have been utterly fascinated with the concept of Kolob too and I asked every single missionary who's visited me (and it's been a lot) to point it out on a star chart for me. They have difficulties with this.

 

[Danoff]

Mormons believe, and I'm simplifying it here, that God was a man named Elohim who lived on another planet. That man became exalted through eternal progression and became God for us. God also, apparently, lives near a star or planet named Kolob, which may or may not be Sirius.

So if you want to boil it down to something simple, Elohim was a humanoid alien who was so good that he became God and took up residence 8.6 light years from Earth. Oh and 1 day on Kolob is equal to 1,000 years on Earth. It's talked about in the Pearl of the Great Price but I honestly don't understand it.

I have been utterly fascinated with the concept of Kolob too and I asked every single missionary who's visited me (and it's been a lot) to point it out on a star chart for me. They have difficulties with this.

But it doesn't answer any questions. Many people turn to religion because they don't understand why reality exists. But this answers nothing. It just says "from reality" which is wholly unnecessary to answer that question.

 

[UKMikey]

Holy Ron Hubbard... it all makes so much more sense when it's set to music by the South Park guys (4'24").

 

[Joey D]

But it doesn't answer any questions. Many people turn to religion because they don't understand why reality exists. But this answers nothing. It just says "from reality" which is wholly unnecessary to answer that question.

I totally agree. I just think Mormons at least give a tangible starting point of Earth God instead of using the Abrahamic religion cop out of God has always been. But if God was a mortal man who was good, then where did his lineage come from? Supposedly, the God of Elohim's world was another mortal person that went through the same path. So basically it's just aliens becoming God all the way down.

I don't believe any of it, of course, but it's still an interesting take on the idea of a forever god.

Also, Mormons don't exactly question things. If they did, they'd wonder why their ancestors were drinkers and why now they don't even want to see alcohol. Or why they can drink a cold energy drink but not hot coffee. So the explanation laid out by the Church President is likely what's taken at face value and then they don't think any more of it.

 

[TRLWNC7396]

Okay....

To clarify at least somewhat.

No one knows ACTUALLY what Kolob is. Nor WHERE it is.

Also, the origin of God is a VERY strange argument that there is no actual proof of. We do accept that God was put into power a LONG (!!!!!!!) time ago. The quote that I wrote above is actually from a president of our Lorenzo Snow.

Yes, there have been humans put into place on the infinite number of planets that have been created. They have all had the chance to achieve not only immortality, but become gods themselves. This is why there is an infinite number of gods.

As far as questioning things, that is actually promoted. We are encouraged to question for ourselves and find out truths for ourselves.

As far as the idea of alcohol, tobacco, and civil rights, there are some easy explanations and some hard explanations.

In the early days of the church in Kirtland, there was a class that was sponsored by Joseph Smith. All of the people who attended smoke and chewed tobacco as well as drank alcohol. Joseph's wife would clean up afterwards, and she got truly sick of all of the mess on the floor. She asked if this was okay, and Joseph asked for clarification. The answer is now Doctrine and Covenants section 89. If you would like to read it, here is the link: https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/89?lang=eng

Because of this, we believe that alcohol is NOT for human consumption. After all, it is a poisonous fuel. However, it is wonderful for cleaning, etc. Tobacco is also not for consumption, but can be used to help with sicknesses. Caffeine is an interesting question, but really boils down to loss of choice. If you can't live without something, then you lose the choice of living without it.

It is not specifically stated that we have to (or not) refuse caffeine, but it is highly discouraged to lose agency to a need.

As far as civil rights, there are some interesting questions for that. The church will NOT give a specific reason for it, but the theories range from personal prejudice to societal complicity. Either way, all people are allowed to receive ALL things that are available. No matter what. As long as you want them, and are worthy.

 

[Famine]

Also, the origin of God is a VERY strange argument that there is no actual proof of. We do accept that God was put into power a LONG (!!!!!!!) time ago. The quote that I wrote above is actually from a president of our Lorenzo Snow.

Yes, there have been humans put into place on the infinite number of planets that have been created. They have all had the chance to achieve not only immortality, but become gods themselves. This is why there is an infinite number of gods.

So... which one talks to you?

Are there an infinite number of Satans?

Sounds like a right load of absolute Kolobs.

 

[TRLWNC7396]

There is only one God for our world. All others have their own creations to rule and deal with.

Yep. It's interesting to think of all of this. Try grasping infinity.

 

[Famine]

Try grasping infinity.

Not really a problem.

However, once again my question is "Which one?".

 

[TRLWNC7396]

The one that I believe in, follow, and understand to be the only God that I worship.

Why is that hard to accept?

Also, a new video that explains better about our beliefs vs mainstream christianity:

 

[Famine]

The one that I believe in, follow, and understand to be the only God that I worship.

Why is that hard to accept?

While still interesting that, out of the billions of deities on this planet (and the "infinite" number you assert to be on others), you've somehow managed to find the exact right one first time, I wasn't actually talking about deities:

Try grasping infinity.

Not really a problem.

However, once again my question is "Which one?".

What's interesting is that you didn't entertain the possibility of my question being about multiple infinities, despite it being entirely encapsulated within the post, and went to something else instead...

Which makes me wonder if you "grasp" infinity, or if you're just using to mean "big number" (while appearing to be quite condescending about it)...

 

[Liquid]

Which makes me wonder if you "grasp" infinity, or if you're just using to mean "big number" (while appearing to be quite condescending about it)...

Always relevant: Graham's number doesn't mean infinity.

 

[TRLWNC7396]

While still interesting that, out of the billions of deities on this planet (and the "infinite" number you assert to be on others), you've somehow managed to find the exact right one first time, I wasn't actually talking about deities:

What's interesting is that you didn't entertain the possibility of my question being about multiple infinities, despite it being entirely encapsulated within the post, and went to something else instead...

Which makes me wonder if you "grasp" infinity, or if you're just using to mean "big number" (while appearing to be quite condescending about it)...

Your answer did point at both directions to me, so I just went with that, especially since this thread is about God. (shrug)

However, I have no problem with multiple infinities. I watched the Veritasium video about it, and I agree fully that it is possible. There is no possible way to define how many possibilities there are, either.

On the idea of finding the right God, that's an interesting assumption. It's almost impossible to explain why I feel that way without having an agreement on both sides of what is being talked about. (shrug)

 

[HenrySwanson]

As far as a grief disorder, that is an interesting question. Does a person with any mental disorder choose there illness? Not typically. I mean, yes, we can influence the mind with drugs or trauma, but typically there is not a choice.

Yes, you have asked a good question. At what point does grief and stress go from choice and/or the ability to overcome to something that can't be, and needs greater assistance.

I'm sure that each person has their own level of tolerance. And must be answered personally.

So, if I'm understanding, God gave them this disorder to test them?

And....suicide, for instance, would be failing that test?

Does that mean to pass the test you have to continue to suffer, or can you only pass if you "deal with it" in some unspecified way?

If you've seen the movie "Manchester by the Sea", I'd be interested in your thoughts on what the protagonist goes through (although put it in spoiler tags for those who haven't seen it).

 

[Danoff]

Yes, there have been humans put into place on the infinite number of planets that have been created. They have all had the chance to achieve not only immortality, but become gods themselves. This is why there is an infinite number of gods.

Aside from pure wish fulfillment, what possible reason do you have to believe any of that? It's like listening to a child, or narcissist, describe their poorly considered desires.

 

[Famine]

However, I have no problem with multiple infinities. I watched the Veritasium video about it, and I agree fully that it is possible.

I don't know what this means; it's not "possible", it's true. I don't think you truly "grasp" what infinity is - and it's not "a really, really big number or amount of things".

 

[TRLWNC7396]

So, if I'm understanding, God gave them this disorder to test them?

And....suicide, for instance, would be failing that test?

Does that mean to pass the test you have to continue to suffer, or can you only pass if you "deal with it" in some unspecified way?

If you've seen the movie "Manchester by the Sea", I'd be interested in your thoughts on what the protagonist goes through (although put it in spoiler tags for those who haven't seen it).

Wow. You really do have a need to know why there are problems.

Everyone has a trial. It is impossible to go through life without one.

So, yes, it's possible that there is a disorder that will test people. Is this because of God, or because of the result of circumstances?

I can't answer. Each person has their own limits, and therefore their own problems.

Suicide is a VERY interesting question. Is it first degree murder, or is it allowed?

Another question that I, personally, have no chance or ability to understand. That will be judged by God when it is appropriate. I have known someone who ended up taking their own life, but I feel that they ended up okay. So that is literally a personal answer for each person. No idea how to generalize something that is so directly specific. Because I can't.

I am unsure how to answer about the whole "deal with it" or continue to suffer. Do MS patients just "deal with it"? That is a person by person answer, again.

There is no general statement that answers all of the questions you have. Each one must be answered by each person.

But, in the end, it's more about the direction you are facing than it is about anything else. If you are willing to look at as much as you can in a positive way, then you will have a happier life. That doesn't depend on belief in God or not.

I don't know what this means; it's not "possible", it's true. I don't think you truly "grasp" what infinity is - and it's not "a really, really big number or amount of things".

Again, wow. If you can explain to me all of the possibilities of all of the possibilities of what and how many infinities there are, then by all means give me "facts".

I cannot fathom why you are so desperate to be right. No one is or can be. Yes, I have attempted to grasp infinity. I was very young, and I tried to see if I could. My brain stopped letting me. I actually tried a second time, and the same thing happened.

Good luck proving what can't be proven.

I am fine with the idea and possibility that there is a never-ending reach to everything. How many digits are there between 0 and 1? How can we define all of them?

The possibility that there is a possibility is fine by me. I'm not trying to prove OR disprove it. It is possible.

Why does it HAVE to be "true" to be possible? What are you trying to prove?

 

[Famine]

I cannot fathom why you are so desperate to be right.

Good luck proving what can't be proven.

 

[TRLWNC7396]

You know, it's funny. As I was writing that, I kept thinking to myself that @Famine believes in God. He just won't accept that there is a person. It HAS to be numbers and facts.

He has proven that he accepts infinity.

So do I.

 

[Famine]

You know, it's funny. As I was writing that, I kept thinking to myself that @Famine believes in God. He just won't accept that there is a person. It HAS to be numbers and facts.

Then you are incorrect. I'm not sure why it is you think that you can speak for me either.

He has proven that he accepts infinity.

So do I.

Yet you don't seem to have any understanding of what it is. You're just throwing the word round like it's even relevant...

I suspect that it's the usual theist approach of "God of the Gaps", where they act like stuff is so unimaginably large that it's unknowable and that means their god (and again, amazingly they picked the right one, as written in a book in their native language, from hundreds of thousands at the first attempt) did it because there's no other explanation.

But, along with the usual flaws in that approach, that's got nothing to do with the concept of infinity, which is not "unimaginably large".

 

[p78]

I want to know why the disparity in such a test? Why are some children tested with cancer and others are tested with taking out the trash, why is one person tested with overwhelming poverty and someone else is tested with being born into a wealthy family?

Either God has his favorites already lined up or there is no God, if there is a God, he sure is an ...

 

[Joey D]

As far as questioning things, that is actually promoted. We are encouraged to question for ourselves and find out truths for ourselves.

I'm not so sure about that. I lived in a Mormon Theocracy, things were rarely, if ever questioned. When they were questioned, it got buried fairly quickly.

Because of this, we believe that alcohol is NOT for human consumption. After all, it is a poisonous fuel. However, it is wonderful for cleaning, etc. Tobacco is also not for consumption, but can be used to help with sicknesses. Caffeine is an interesting question, but really boils down to loss of choice. If you can't live without something, then you lose the choice of living without it.

It is not specifically stated that we have to (or not) refuse caffeine, but it is highly discouraged to lose agency to a need.

Here's the thing though, almost every Mormon I know drinks even though they will straight-face tell you they don't. The old saying back in Utah was "Why do you invite two Mormons to fish with you? Because if you only invited one, he'd drink all your beer." I do agree that most Mormons don't smoke, but I think that's just standard across the board regardless of religion. They're heavy drug users though and while they might not be snorting rails of coke, they pop antidepressants and pain pills like they're candy. The entire Salt Lake Valley has a huge problem with prescription abuse among Mormons.

As for caffeine, caffeine isn't banned and the LDS Church specifically said in 2012 that caffeinated sodas were fine. BYU even sells caffeinated soda on campus. What Mormons can't do is consume hot drinks. So no coffee, but they can chug energy drinks until their heart explodes. Mormons drink more pop than any other group I know of too. My boss drinks at least 2L of Diet Coke a day, if not more. The guy I shared a cube with drank Monsters all day, every day and probably had 7-8 of them. However, if I asked either if they wanted coffee, they'd refuse. Hell, Utah even has these weird drive-thru soda shops where they put sugary syrup in sugary pop, then add whipped cream to the whole thing. How diabetes rates among Mormons aren't insanely high is beyond me.

As far as civil rights, there are some interesting questions for that. The church will NOT give a specific reason for it, but the theories range from personal prejudice to societal complicity. Either way, all people are allowed to receive ALL things that are available. No matter what. As long as you want them, and are worthy.

Except the early Church apostles said that blacks were "fence sitters" in the pre-existence where they were halfway between righteous and evil. They outright claimed that whites were more righteous than blacks. But both Joseph Smith and Brigham Young subscribed to the idea of the Curse of Cain where Cain was black and because he was cursed by God due to killing his son, all blacks must therefore be cursed as well. If that wasn't bad enough, they also used the Curse of Ham to justify slavery. The only reason the Church allowed black was due to the apostle Bruce McConkie saying the curses had been lifted somehow in 1978. The Church itself didn't recognize how ridiculous this all was until 2013.

Racism is still ripe with Mormons too since many have been taught and still are taught about being "white and delightsome". They believe Jesus was white with blue eyes (which isn't likely due to him living in the Middle East) and that the devil has black skin. They see God as white and believe that God made his children in his own "white" image and they also believe that when you're resurrected, you'll be white. Granted not every Mormon thinks like this, but enough do that it's still incredibly prevalent. I saw it frequently, even among people I didn't think were racist in any way.