Do you believe in God?

  • Thread starter Patrik
  • 24,488 comments
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Do you believe in god?

  • Of course, without him nothing would exist!

    Votes: 624 30.6%
  • Maybe.

    Votes: 368 18.0%
  • No way!

    Votes: 1,051 51.5%

  • Total voters
    2,042
Welcome to the atheist 1984. Science explains all and all children must learn it that way, teaching anything else is criminal. And if in adult age some people, in spite of their atheist upbringing, go the freak way and believe in religious crap ... well, a few generations from now we can only hope society will be ready to put them in some asylum to avoid the mental illness to spread. Better still, we won't talk about it. And will erase all books that do.

Atheists working for the greater good.
 
buggs1a
How did God lie? He can't, he's God and is perfect. Satan lies and twists things also. Which is what Satan did.

If you mean God lied when he said if you eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil then you will surely die, and Satan said the truth, you will surely not die, but God knows that once you eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil then you will become like him.

If that's what you mean then here's my response.

God did not lie. Satan did not lie as he twisted what God said. Here's why.

God said you will surely die if you eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. God was right. They did die. They died spiritually. Sin leads to death. God is perfect. Sin is what kills. They died spiritually. We all are dead spiritually but alive in the flesh.

Satan said you will not die but you will become like them. Adam and eve did not die physically and then their eyes were open to evil and sin.

But again, without the holy spirit it is impossible for any of you to believe. Without the holy spirit you think all these things are foolish and tales of lies and that I am foolish.

Satan is real as God is real. I know this from my faith, the holy spirit and my own life. I also know this from the bible and what it says about Satan and God because I have experienced things and I have the holy spirit in me that teaches me truth and helps me in all areas of my life.

Yes I sure would love to be able to be in a space ship and go around the galaxy. I would sooo love this :)

How can God lie if he doesnt exist?
 
Obviously I'm being facetious. But these folks won't listen to any sort of logic or reason, so we're not left with a whole lot of options. :lol:

A legitimate solution though, as I previously mentioned, would be to make it illegal to indoctrinate (aka brainwash) children into your particular religion. I personally think that molestation of the mind should be treated as harshly as physical abuse, if not more so. 👍

And no Christian should have any problems with this, since there's no cutoff age for when you can accept Jesus as your savior, right?

I get your Hitler joke, in real terms the method would come under Law and medicine, at some point faith will be termed a mental illness with potential harmful effects on the individual and others who are influenced by them. Once this is established on a case by case basis medical treatment will ensue, voluntarily or otherwise. When the delusion has no obvious harm to themselves or others, such as no children or position of influence then treatment could be voluntary, but reviewed in time.
Those with Faith Disorder will need to be registered with their doctor as having the condition.
It's an interesting one as unlike say with Depression, you are not really likely to seek help from a doctor. That's as with a few other mental illnesses it needs to be recognised and diagnosed by others with a set of regulations to follow on how to manage it.
Balancing that there is nothing wrong with deciding how you view life and the way you live it. It's just it will need to be determined how much it effects quality of life and danger to others etc. Children could be the key aspect, how would you deal with it?
This is all many years away though, I mean we still have Faith schools, and Churches. But with a bit of clever re-branding they could be changed into Hospitals and learning facilities to those that have already been effected.
The theme is help and therapy not persecution or derision. And the diagnosis of what is benign and what is harmful.
 
But again, without the holy spirit it is impossible for any of you to believe. Without the holy spirit you think all these things are foolish and tales of lies and that I am foolish.

I have it, doesn't help, I much prefer logic, and I'd think a perfect God would too. Though I guess there is a chance that my church did confirmation wrong and I didn't actually get it.
 
I get your Hitler joke, in real terms the method would come under Law and medicine, at some point faith will be termed a mental illness with potential harmful effects on the individual and others who are influenced by them. Once this is established on a case by case basis medical treatment will ensue, voluntarily or otherwise. When the delusion has no obvious harm to themselves or others, such as no children or position of influence then treatment could be voluntary, but reviewed in time.
Those with Faith Disorder will need to be registered with their doctor as having the condition.
It's an interesting one as unlike say with Depression, you are not really likely to seek help from a doctor. That's as with a few other mental illnesses it needs to be recognised and diagnosed by others with a set of regulations to follow on how to manage it.
Balancing that there is nothing wrong with deciding how you view life and the way you live it. It's just it will need to be determined how much it effects quality of life and danger to others etc. Children could be the key aspect, how would you deal with it?
This is all many years away though, I mean we still have Faith schools, and Churches. But with a bit of clever re-branding they could be changed into Hospitals and learning facilities to those that have already been effected.
The theme is help and therapy not persecution or derision. And the diagnosis of what is benign and what is harmful.
👍

It sounds slightly unreasonable, but this is certainly an option. Especially the last two sentences.

The alternative is waiting. The rate of Christians turning to atheism is much higher than the reverse. My fear, with both options, is that as the number of Christians falls, they will begin to feel persecuted, even though they are not. I fear it may lead some groups to violence. Also, with the first option, I feel like it could possibly start some sort of civil war.

But it's all just food for thought. I don't really expect laws like that in the future, and I can't really say what religion will become in thousands of years.
 
I have it, doesn't help, I much prefer logic, and I'd think a perfect God would too. Though I guess there is a chance that my church did confirmation wrong and I didn't actually get it.

Even more funny: he claims that God is perfect. Yet, the bible says God created man in his own image.

So if God is perfect...why aren't we? Oh, right - because someone scribbled something into that book, whatever this person deemed to be right.
 
I get your Hitler joke, in real terms the method would come under Law and medicine, at some point faith will be termed a mental illness with potential harmful effects on the individual and others who are influenced by them. Once this is established on a case by case basis medical treatment will ensue, voluntarily or otherwise. When the delusion has no obvious harm to themselves or others, such as no children or position of influence then treatment could be voluntary, but reviewed in time.
Those with Faith Disorder will need to be registered with their doctor as having the condition.
It's an interesting one as unlike say with Depression, you are not really likely to seek help from a doctor. That's as with a few other mental illnesses it needs to be recognised and diagnosed by others with a set of regulations to follow on how to manage it.
Balancing that there is nothing wrong with deciding how you view life and the way you live it. It's just it will need to be determined how much it effects quality of life and danger to others etc. Children could be the key aspect, how would you deal with it?
This is all many years away though, I mean we still have Faith schools, and Churches. But with a bit of clever re-branding they could be changed into Hospitals and learning facilities to those that have already been effected.
The theme is help and therapy not persecution or derision. And the diagnosis of what is benign and what is harmful.

I don't even know where to begin with this other then to say that's a fairly disgusting statement. Religion is a mental disorder? Seriously? It's statements like that, that continue to fan the flames of hate in the world.

One of America's founding principals was freedom of religion, not freedom from religion. To persecute people solely on their spiritual beliefs would make us no better the Nazi Germany or Soviet Russia. You should be allowed to subscribe and practice any religion you want in America, just as you should be allowed not to subscribe to any of it. No one should be force to think a certain way, not now, not ever. If the masses want to start changing their perception of religion, then they will do so and you will see a shift throughout the country.

I am really having a hard time understand some atheist's thought processes, do you not know that trying to hold someone back from something will only make them want it more? The proof is in the countless "underground" religious movements in China where no one is supposed to be taught about religion. Trying to outlaw religion or treat at as a mental disorder would only cause the same thing to happen in America and other parts of the western world. We are beyond that, we are more civilised then that.

The one think that is a problem are fanatical groups, and this goes for anything, not just religion. There are people who are so wrapped up in religion they are willing to kill for it, which is a concern. I would be willing to be though there are just as many atheists out there would kill for their belief too. And don't even get me started on the GT vs. Forza thing or Star Wars vs. Star Trek :lol:.

My point is, trying to classify something like religion as a mental disorder is only going to divide us more. I think atheists can learn a lot from theists and vice versa. When groups are divided, that's when problems arise.

Welcome to the atheist 1984. Science explains all and all children must learn it that way, teaching anything else is criminal. And if in adult age some people, in spite of their atheist upbringing, go the freak way and believe in religious crap ... well, a few generations from now we can only hope society will be ready to put them in some asylum to avoid the mental illness to spread. Better still, we won't talk about it. And will erase all books that do.

Atheists working for the greater good.

Honestly any time anything like that is brought up is scares the living hell out of me because I could see it happening. This is why diversification in everything is a good thing. A majority should not infringe on the rights of the minority, no matter who's controlling what side.

So if God is perfect...why aren't we? Oh, right - because someone scribbled something into that book, whatever this person deemed to be right.

While I'm not saying this it the truth, the answer that is given by Christians is that God gave us free will which allows us to make our choices, whether they are good or bad.
 
Honestly any time anything like that is brought up is scares the living hell out of me because I could see it happening. This is why diversification in everything is a good thing. A majority should not infringe on the rights of the minority, no matter who's controlling what side.

It has happened, many times, during the XXth century, mainly - but not exclusively - with atheism connected to Marxism, because according to that doctrin the religious belief not only was a lie in itself, but it also was something that NEEDED to be abolished, because it prevented people to understand that they were being opressed by the dominant class.

I think Marxists also based the denial of God on the basis that through science you would never be able to prove its existence. It's a laughable concept but I still see it being used here. That's why I only re-entered this thread when I read someone taking their ANTI-FAITH as far as stating that not even Jesus Christ (the man) existed. Well ... at least that's scientifically debatable :lol:
 
Yeah. You sound just as bad as Evangelical Bible thumpers right now, buddy. Molestation of the mind? Really?
Well it's true, is it not? Being indoctrinated into religion at a young age can easily lead them to being mentally trapped from considering anything else as truth, regardless of what arguments or evidence they are shown.

They firmly believe that their beliefs are irrevocable because they've been granted divine insight from the Holy Spirit for having faith, and that anything to the contrary is the work of the Devil. This kind of thinking is dangerous. This kind of thinking is what justifies stuff like 9/11.

Not everybody indoctrinated at childhood is permanently afflicted by this, but not all of them are able to escape from these dangerous mental traps either. All I'm proposing is giving them the opportunity to make an unbiased decision as to what they believe in once they've reached the mental maturity to think for themselves about these big topics and avoid these mental trappings.


Welcome to the atheist 1984. Science explains all and all children must learn it that way, teaching anything else is criminal. And if in adult age some people, in spite of their atheist upbringing, go the freak way and believe in religious crap ... well, a few generations from now we can only hope society will be ready to put them in some asylum to avoid the mental illness to spread. Better still, we won't talk about it. And will erase all books that do.

Atheists working for the greater good.
Science doesn't explain all, will never explain all, and no scientist will ever claim it to explain all. Science only explains our current understanding. Over time, we learn more and our knowledge grows.

The notion that the idea of "teaching anything else is criminal" will lead to something like 1984 is absurd. Teaching anything else other than what we currently know? Impossible, unless we're teaching lies.

I do agree though that religion is not a mental illness. Putting people into asylums for belief would be absurd. Religion, or more accurately the continued belief in religion, is merely the symptom of mental trappings caused by indoctrination at childhood, where the child doesn't have the mental capacity to really think about what they're being told to believe in.
 
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As much as I want to believe in one true God there is always a thing that irks me. According to the Bible God punished people when they act against him. How come he isn't doing that now? Half the world acts against him in some way.
EDIT:I also quite agree with yaywalter a post above. Young people should be given the power to choose when they are mentally fit to do so. Before the choosing point they should not be fed with stories about the divine.
 
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All I'm proposing is giving them the opportunity to make an unbiased decision as to what they believe in once they've reached the mental maturity to think for themselves about these big topics and avoid these mental trappings.


The thought of this paralyzes the theist and their favourite god, because they know deep down that their wild fantasy requires the indoctrination of children, and the cycle would be broken.




Some thought from other great minds:


There is no absurdity, however palpable, which cannot be firmly implanted in the minds of all, if only one begins to inculcate it before the early age of six by constantly repeating it to them with an air of great solemnity. For the training of man, like that of animals, is completely successful only at an early age. (Arthur Schopenhaur)



The danger of religious faith is that it allows otherwise normal human beings to reap the fruits of madness and consider them holy. Because each new generation of children is taught that religious propositions need not be justified in the way that all others must, civilization is still besieged by the armies of the preposterous. We are, even now, killing ourselves over ancient literature. Who could have thought something so tragically absurd could be possible? (Sam Harris)



Imagine encouraging a child to participate in such 'twisted' rituals and worshiping of tortuous crucifixes and such like this from birth. No wonder we have so many hateful and sadistic people in our society. (Brent Allsop)




In childhood our credulity serves us well. It helps us to pack, with extraordinary rapidity, our skulls full of the wisdom of our parents and our ancestors. But if we don't grow out of it in the fullness of time, our nature makes us a sitting target for astrologers, mediums, gurus, evangelists, and quacks. We need to replace the automatic credulity of childhood with the constructive skepticism of adult science.
(Richard Dawkins)



Just think of the tragedy of teaching children not to doubt. (Clarence Darrow)



I am convinced now that children should not be subjected to the frightful mess of the Christian religion. If the concept of a father who plots to have his own son put to death is presented to children as beautiful and as worthy of societies admiration, what types of human behavior can be presented to them as reprehensible? (Ruth Hurmence Green)




Religions survive mainly because they brainwash the young. Three-quarters of Church of England schools are primary schools; all the faiths currently jostling for our tax money to run their "faith-based" schools know that if they do not proselytize intellectually defenseless three- and four-year-olds, their grip will eventually loosen. Inculcating the various competing — competing, note — falsehoods of the major faiths into small children is a form of child abuse, and a scandal. Let us challenge religion to leave children alone until they are adults, whereupon they can be presented with the essentials of religion for mature consideration. For example: tell an averagely intelligent adult hitherto free of religious brainwashing that somewhere, invisibly, there is a being somewhat like us, with desires, interests, purposes, memories, and emotions of anger, love, vengefulness, and jealousy, yet with the negation of such other of our failings as mortality, weakness, corporeality, visibility, limited knowledge and insight; and that this god magically impregnates a mortal woman, who then gives birth to a special being who performs various prodigious feats before departing for heaven. Take your pick of which version of this story to tell: let a King of Heaven impregnate — let's see — Danae or Io or Leda or the Virgin Mary (etc., etc.) and let there be resulting heaven-destined progeny (Heracles, Castor and Pollux, Jesus., etc., etc.) — or any of the other forms of exactly such tales in Babylonian, Egyptian, and other mythologies — then ask which of them he wishes to believe. One can guarantee that such a person would say: none of them. (A. C. Grayling)
 
Well it's true, is it not? Being indoctrinated into religion at a young age can easily lead them to being mentally trapped from considering anything else as truth, regardless of what arguments or evidence they are shown.

They firmly believe that their beliefs are irrevocable because they've been granted divine insight from the Holy Spirit for having faith, and that anything to the contrary is the work of the Devil. This kind of thinking is dangerous. This kind of thinking is what justifies stuff like 9/11.

Not everybody indoctrinated at childhood is permanently afflicted by this, but not all of them are able to escape from these dangerous mental traps either. All I'm proposing is giving them the opportunity to make an unbiased decision as to what they believe in once they've reached the mental maturity to think for themselves about these big topics and avoid these mental trappings.

Being indoctrinated about atheism can have the same affect though in the same way. I don't care what age you learn about anything, there can always be a spark that sets of a mental imbalance and you proceed on a course of fanatical destruction.

As Hun200kmh points out, Marxism has the belief of the non-existence of a god. Once people became indoctrinated with that and spun the beliefs how they wanted to spin them, we ended up with Soviet Russian that killed millions of it's own people or Communist China and Vietnam. So it's not just religion that produces nut jobs, atheism does as well.

I think you are glossing over that the opposite is true with your statement. I can agree that being indoctrinated to the point of being fanatical with religion can have harmful affects, but I don't see how that's different with anything else? Kids around here have been brought up to hate Japanese cars for ruining the American car industry which in turn breeds little bastards who kick, key, spit and vandalise non-American cars. Is everyone like this? No. But are there a handful? Of course. Same goes for religion and non-religion.

I know when I raise my kids I'm going to teach them about spirituality and I think they'll probably turn out just fine.
 
How would a law as you guys suggest be implemented or enforced? Keeping in mind the fine line that would have to be drawn case by case(we already have children removed from 'cult' compounds for instance), and the sheer number of religious parents in the U.S. Put all the parents in jail and all the children in state funded foster care? Just curious if you guys have thought this through or are speaking in ideals.
I cannot claim to have thought it through. It would be quite difficult to enforce, indeed. You can't really monitor what goes on in the privacy of the home, so we'd just have to hope that making it illegal to bring children to a place of religious gathering would suffice. And deciding what to do with offending parents and their children is even more difficult.

As for reverse genocide, Hitler being right etc :rolleyes: And pointing out poor grammar in response is :lol:
I never said Hitler was right. The joke implied his ideas of genocide could be effective. But it's just that: a joke, albeit in poor taste.

And my pointing out his poor grammar was perhaps condescending, but it was intended as a friendly warning. Repeated offenses could get him some unwanted attention.


Being indoctrinated about atheism can have the same affect though in the same way. I don't care what age you learn about anything, there can always be a spark that sets of a mental imbalance and you proceed on a course of fanatical destruction.

As Hun200kmh points out, Marxism has the belief of the non-existence of a god. Once people became indoctrinated with that and spun the beliefs how they wanted to spin them, we ended up with Soviet Russian that killed millions of it's own people or Communist China and Vietnam. So it's not just religion that produces nut jobs, atheism does as well.

I think you are glossing over that the opposite is true with your statement. I can agree that being indoctrinated to the point of being fanatical with religion can have harmful affects, but I don't see how that's different with anything else? Kids around here have been brought up to hate Japanese cars for ruining the American car industry which in turn breeds little bastards who kick, key, spit and vandalise non-American cars. Is everyone like this? No. But are there a handful? Of course. Same goes for religion and non-religion.

I know when I raise my kids I'm going to teach them about spirituality and I think they'll probably turn out just fine.

There's no such thing as being indoctrinated into atheism. The only thing close to it would be telling your children outright that gods don't exist. But there are no mental falsehoods or trappings that are associated with telling a child this, and thus they are much freer to question it as they grow older than they are religion.

And Marxism is not atheism.
 
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I cannot claim to have thought it through. It would be quite difficult to enforce, indeed. You can't really monitor what goes on in the privacy of the home, so we'd just have to hope that making it illegal to bring children to a place of religious gathering would suffice. And deciding what to do with offending parents and their children is even more difficult.

Once again you are aware one of the founding principals of the nation is "freedom of religion" right? Not "freedom from religion".

Making it illegal to raise your kids in a certain belief system would cause such a huge uproar in the country you would spark a serious problem, and I wouldn't be surprised of a revolution. The United States may have a lot of downfalls, but freedom isn't one of them. I should be allowed to practice whatever faith, dress however I want, drive whatever car I want, read whatever book I deem good, and so-on.

Censoring the public from something only will make them more curious and make them fight back an oppressive government, especially if it was done in the US as we are already conditioned to freedom.
 
Once again you are aware one of the founding principals of the nation is "freedom of religion" right? Not "freedom from religion".

Making it illegal to raise your kids in a certain belief system would cause such a huge uproar in the country you would spark a serious problem, and I wouldn't be surprised of a revolution. The United States may have a lot of downfalls, but freedom isn't one of them. I should be allowed to practice whatever faith, dress however I want, drive whatever car I want, read whatever book I deem good, and so-on.

Censoring the public from something only will make them more curious and make them fight back an oppressive government, especially if it was done in the US as we are already conditioned to freedom.

My proposal has no effect on "freedom of religion". If anything, it give people greater freedom of religion. Children will be more free to consider believing in a different religion than their parents. 👍

I'm not proposing making religion illegal. Just restricting access to people of age able to comprehend the subject. You wouldn't give your child a porno mag or a racist story to read, yet I'm sure you believe in freedom of speech, correct?
 
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Far enough yaywalter 👍

I grabbed a few things from the communist manifesto as the convo is going this way, sort of.

(By bourgeoisie is meant the class of modern capitalists, owners of the means of social production and employers of wage labour. By proletariat, the class of modern wage labourers who, having no means of production of their own, are reduced to selling their labour power in order to live. [Engels, 1888 English edition])

A complaint from ch1

...The bourgeoisie, wherever it has got the upper hand, has put an end to all feudal, patriarchal, idyllic relations. It has pitilessly torn asunder the motley feudal ties that bound man to his “natural superiors”, and has left remaining no other nexus between man and man than naked self interest, than callous “cash payment”. It has drowned the most heavenly ecstasies of religious fervour, of chivalrous enthusiasm, of philistine sentimentalism, in the icy water of egotistical calculation. It has resolved personal worth into exchange value, and in place of the numberless indefeasible chartered freedoms, has set up that single, unconscionable freedom – Free Trade. In one word, for exploitation, veiled by religious and political illusions, it has substituted naked, shameless, direct, brutal exploitation......

Ch2 tid bids

..."There are, besides, eternal truths, such as Freedom, Justice, etc. that are common to all states of society. But Communism abolishes eternal truths, it abolishes all religion, and all morality, instead of constituting them on a new basis; it therefore acts in contradiction to all past historical experience."........

In place of the old bourgeois society, with its classes and class antagonisms, we shall have an association, in which the free development of each is the condition for the free development of all.......

The charges against Communism made from a religious, a philosophical and, generally, from an
ideological standpoint, are not deserving of serious examination.
 
There's no such thing as being indoctrinated into atheism. The only thing close to it would be telling your children outright that gods don't exist. But there are no mental falsehoods or trappings that are associated with telling a child this, and thus they are much freer to question it as they grow older than they are religion.

Yes there is, you can be indoctrinated with any idea. How much you want to bet I could go into the GT5 forums and find someone indoctrinated with the belief that Gran Turismo is somehow the existence of everything in life?

And Marxism is not atheism.

I'm aware. All I said is that Marxism contains the belief of no god within it's idea as a whole.

My proposal has no effect on "freedom of religion". If anything, it give people greater freedom of religion. Children will be more free to consider believing in a different religion than their parents. 👍

Yes it does, you are denying a group (children) of the freedom to choose their own religion by not letting them attend worship services. Kids are smart enough to ask questions if they don't believe something and the older they get the more questions they ask.

And even then I think many kids go through their rebellion years in their late teens and start questioning everything their parents do anyway and explore other options. If they see the religion in which they were raised is wrong then they will change. Remember there is a ton of information out there now days and it's easier then ever to find. 50 years ago it was quite difficult, so the spread of ideas wasn't nearly as common as it is today.

Given time people will discover things out for themselves and believe the way they want to believe, regardless of what they were taught when they were younger. Speaking from a personal example I was raised in a conservative, Republican, Catholic home, that listened to country music and watched Fox News. Now that I'm older I'm not conservative or Republican, I'm not Catholic, I don't listen to country music and I think Fox News is media pollution.

Give kids more credit, they are smarter then you are making them out to be.

I'm not proposing making religion illegal. Just restricting access to people of age able to comprehend the subject. You wouldn't give your child a porno mag or a racist story to read, yet I'm sure you believe in freedom of speech, correct?

They get that crap in school, hell I knew what sex was in the second grade and I read enough Mark Twain to know what a 🤬 was and how racism worked. It's not like keeping that stuff away from them is going to make any bit of a difference.

However the difference is I can choose whether to give me child those thing or not. Under your proposition I wouldn't even have the right to teach my child if I wanted too...and I have a huge problem with that.

And yes, I believe in freedom of speech.
 
The thought of this paralyzes the theist and their favourite god, because they know deep down that their wild fantasy requires the indoctrination of children, and the cycle would be broken.

You are soooooo wrong ... it's almost funny how atheists in their uppity, when faced with the inevitable truth that God can't be proven or disproven, just say that this issue would be solved by stopping the religious upbringing of the theists' children.

And I firstly ask: What issue exactly are we talking about?


Because as long as I (a theist) bring up my children to respect other's beliefs and non-beliefs, it's none of other theists or atheists (or the state's) business what particular belief I teach them.

And, as you might guess because you think I'm wrong ... I think you are wrong. So, whatever education you want to give MY children I don't care. As I don't care a bit with whatever education you plan to give YOUR children.

I'll only care, and will actively work against your right to educate your own children, if you teach them to disrespect others. And I absolutely grant you back that right against me should I try to educate my children in such a wrong way.

But this has nothing to do with religion.
 
Yes it does, you are denying a group (children) of the freedom to choose their own religion by not letting them attend worship services. Kids are smart enough to ask questions if they don't believe something and the older they get the more questions they ask.

And even then I think many kids go through their rebellion years in their late teens and start questioning everything their parents do anyway and explore other options. If they see the religion in which they were raised is wrong then they will change. Remember there is a ton of information out there now days and it's easier then ever to find. 50 years ago it was quite difficult, so the spread of ideas wasn't nearly as common as it is today.

Given time people will discover things out for themselves and believe the way they want to believe, regardless of what they were taught when they were younger. Speaking from a personal example I was raised in a conservative, Republican, Catholic home, that listened to country music and watched Fox News. Now that I'm older I'm not conservative or Republican, I'm not Catholic, I don't listen to country music and I think Fox News is media pollution.

Give kids more credit, they are smarter then you are making them out to be.

Well to be precise, my idea was to make illegal forcing a particular religion on children. I have no qualms over allowing the teaching of the history of all religions in the classroom and the beliefs of each of them in an unbiased fashion, allowing them to make a decision to believe in any one of them on their own. 👍
 
OMG, so far155 people answered "Of course, without him nothing would exist!"
Not saying people are stupid, but if you REALLY think about it there are no HARD EVIDENCE that a god exists. No real reason to believe that he/she exists.
 
However the difference is I can choose whether to give me child those thing or not. Under your proposition I wouldn't even have the right to teach my child if I wanted too...and I have a huge problem with that.

And yes, I believe in freedom of speech.
Teaching is different than telling. Telling your child "God exists" is far different than telling him "The Bible is a book that says God exists. Whether you believe it or not is up to you, but I believe it." The difference of course is that the Bible is an actual object the child can see for his/herself, that everyone agrees exists, whereas a child's only indication of whether God exists is from other people or the Bible telling him/her that it does/doesn't exist.

No one's suggesting religious teachings be banned, or at least I'm not. However, if you're going to teach your child about God, show him what's undeniably true, that the bible exists, that some people believe in it, that some don't, and that it's up to him whether or not to accept it as true. And please don't tell him that if he doesn't accept it he'll burn in hell, tell him the Bible says he'll burn in hell if he doesn't. There's quite a big important difference there.

You may not care how I raise my children, but I care how you raise yours. Why? Because they're people too, and they deserve just as much freedom as you have. You don't "own" them, they're not your "property". You can't do whatever you want with them. Having a child doesn't give anyone the right to abuse them physically, why should it allow them to obstruct their freedom mentally?

I don't want nor expect you to teach any children to accept atheism, if it's even possible to "accept" such a thing. But everyone deserves to make their own decisions about those things. Just because they can decide to question it doesn't mean they will. Everyone should question their beliefs, because if it's really worth believing, they should realize that through their searching. If they realize they don't want to believe it, they wont. Why should anyone be prevented from analyzing their beliefs with threats of eternal torture? It's just wrong, whether or not they're related to me.
 
I don't even know where to begin with this other then to say that's a fairly disgusting statement. Religion is a mental disorder? Seriously? It's statements like that, that continue to fan the flames of hate in the world.

One of America's founding principals was freedom of religion, not freedom from religion. To persecute people solely on their spiritual beliefs would make us no better the Nazi Germany or Soviet Russia. You should be allowed to subscribe and practice any religion you want in America, just as you should be allowed not to subscribe to any of it. No one should be force to think a certain way, not now, not ever.

If a Doctor diagnoses someone with depression, that doctor is not hating or persecuting the individual, they are diagnosing a condition that fits the symptoms. The symptoms of a faith disorder are believing in things that don't exist, a delusion of the world around them. That can easily be diagnosed by a doctor asking "Do you believe in God?" if the answer is yes, they are ill with the condition (in simple terms, but in reality it would be far more complex so forget that example!). I would argue people do not choose to believe in god, something has failed in the brain in the way it reacts to the evidence around it or has been subjected to abuse (preaching).
I used to be a bit divisive and mocking of religious people, but I think I have matured a bit now and see believers as victims and or just ill. I don't want to create a massive divide or atheists, healthy people, believers mentally ill, as i think most people have some kind of mental disability. Faith is just something that can be categorised as a disability, if you really believe in it. If people are choosing to believe in god then they are not ill, they are just being a rebel or doing it for fun or because it makes them feel good (basically it's a decision of freewill. People who feel they are not choosing to believe god, as they know he exists, those are the ones which are ill.
For example those people declaring themselves Jedi's, and believers in the Force have chosen to do it as they like the story and the film etc. And we handily have evidence that it all came from a film with the director still alive today. He made it up. These people are not ill, they still have able minds (apart from a select few who really do believe with unshakable faith know that the force exists, they are ill.)


People who devoutly believe in god do not have any freewill, they are being controlled and are slaves/zombies to a certain process that has escalated out of control within their minds. They need medical help.







When you see someone as a victim or ill you don't hate them you hope they can be helped and it provides some tolerance also. I tolerate people with religion, as long as they don't tell their lies to children.
The processes I think need to happen are a long way away. I suppose it would have to be a gentle change.
 
They may not be proof that God does exist, but there isn't any proof that he doesn't either.

Religion has existed for millenia, what about the first people to worship deities? Surely there were some people originally who did not have parents to 'brainwash' them with religion, as they would have found it themselves?
 
They may not be proof that God does exist, but there isn't any proof that he doesn't either.

Religion has existed for millenia, what about the first people to worship deities? Surely there were some people originally who did not have parents to 'brainwash' them with religion, as they would have found it themselves?
They were not living in a conflict of reality, what they chose to believe was not contestable really. They also chose to believe in what they did, they were not instructed to, after it becomes a religion then it becomes instructed and a tool against the impressionable.
There is nothing wrong with finding something for yourself, but to argue that it's fundamentally true is not "ok". It's an idea.
 

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