Do you believe in God?

[Owen.C93]

They don't because the Bible says that nobody is free of sin, and that everybody is born a sinner. This is one of the Bible's preachings that I am skeptical about. It makes me wonder what the definition of 'sinning' is. For all we know it is written in some kind of tense that is basically saying that we are free of sin at birth, but we will all inevitably sin at some point in our lives, since even the most faithful monks, or even the Pope, for example, have probably sinned at some point in their lives.

The bible is messed up beyond belief, almost all of it is written to profit the same kind of people time and time again. There are texts that stop women having power, allow torture, teach you to eliminate any kind of other religion which may not agree with their book.

I seriously suggest you take a subjective look at your own personal stance and belief in religion before pursuing any of the tasks in the bible. Try and realise what morals you think you should live by and not what the bible says, you only have to look into the past and realise what happened to society when they live by the bible's rules.

 

[Moot]

You don't have to be religious to be crazy, but it helps.

(Moot 2011)

 

[Tic Tach]

They don't because the Bible says that nobody is free of sin, and that everybody is born a sinner. This is one of the Bible's preachings that I am skeptical about. It makes me wonder what the definition of 'sinning' is. For all we know it is written in some kind of tense that is basically saying that we are free of sin at birth, but we will all inevitably sin at some point in our lives, since even the most faithful monks, or even the Pope, for example, have probably sinned at some point in their lives.

There is no such thing as "sin"; it is a religious term. It is behaviour that goes against one's imagined god. There is undesirable, counterproductive, even hurtful behaviour, but that's it. Do we hear the word "sin" used in court? No. It's a fear/guilt/shame/god thing.




I distrust those people who know so well what god wants them to do, because I notice that it always coincides with their own desires. (Susan B. Anthony)


And that what we call god's justice is only man's idea of what he would do if he were god. (Elbert Hubbard)



If triangles made a god, they would give him three sides. (Montesquieu)


If horses had gods, they would look like horses. (Xenophanes)

 

[Moot]

There is no such thing as "sin"; it is a religious term. It is behaviour that goes against one's imagined god. There is undesirable, counterproductive, even hurtful behaviour, but that's it. Do we hear the word "sin" used in court? No. It's a fear/guilt/shame/god thing.

Sadly though we still do get terms used in court, such as "evil" by the judge etc.
It could be just figures of speech, but things like that should be more considered.

"A newly-wed who tried to hire a hitman to kill her husband was branded 'pure evil' by a judge who jailed her for 20 years."
From a UK newspaper.
Moral judgement scares me. There should just be law, and then scientific appraisal of causes and actions. Never a "bad" person did this or that. There are no bad people in this world or good people. Just people who act for various reasons of the mind. Usually the negative things are from illness. Or extreme circumstance.
I think all criminals are ill. But am I possibly being too simple there. Premeditated murder or such like can still be done because of a malfunctioning mind. At least in UK we don't kill criminals. That's another subject. But references that society, even non religious society is still obsessed and controlled by a false sense or morality and guilt and a ruthless way of dealing with it.

 

[PeterJB]

The bible is messed up beyond belief, almost all of it is written to profit the same kind of people time and time again. There are texts that stop women having power, allow torture, teach you to eliminate any kind of other religion which may not agree with their book.

I seriously suggest you take a subjective look at your own personal stance and belief in religion before pursuing any of the tasks in the bible. Try and realise what morals you think you should live by and not what the bible says, you only have to look into the past and realise what happened to society when they live by the bible's rules.

And how many Christian nations still impose these laws I wonder?

Not everything the Bible says is the direct word of God or Jesus, a lot of it was probably influenced by the culture in which it originated, some of the tings listed as 'sins' in Leviticus are absurd, but there is nothing there saying God made them.

Being a Christian doesn't mean I want to stone Women for speaking when not spoken to, or bomb followers of other religions. How many modern day Christians actively do that? There is more good in the Bible than bad. I think the Ten Commandments are a pretty respectable set of morals to follow.

 

[Hun200kmh]

Perhaps I did misunderstand, but what then did you mean by this?

You don't teach them that maybe God doesn't exist. You teach them God doesn't exist.

If you check, my quote is taken from a post where I was addressing Tic Tach. I think it's pretty clear that he considers, based on Hitchens' works at least, that the non-existence of God is proven.

You guys are mainly americans and I can't keep up now, not at 1.30 AM where I live this side of the Atlantic. SO I'm off. But I'd like something to be clear. I'm not afraid of discussing any subject, and I am not dogmatic. I have a fundamental belief, true, but also many doubts on some specifics. And I surely don't get personal in internet discussions (i.e. gtplanet, I don't venture anywhere else online) so if anyone felt offended I am truly sorry.

[joking]But beware, I'm not turning the other cheek and if atheism's progression in modern societies is going the LOGICAL AND SCIENTIFIC road of messing with the way I raise my kids, I'll receive all and any attempts to do it with lots of prayers- of course - but also a few guns to defend my freedom. And since I'm not muslim I don't plan to use them kill myself, suicide doesn't get me any virgins, just a place in hell ! [/joking]

Good night all

 

[Owen.C93]

And how many Christian nations still impose these laws I wonder?

Not everything the Bible says is the direct word of God or Jesus, a lot of it was probably influenced by the culture in which it originated, some of the tings listed as 'sins' in Leviticus are absurd, but there is nothing there saying God made them.

Being a Christian doesn't mean I want to stone Women for speaking when not spoken to, or bomb followers of other religions. How many modern day Christians actively do that? There is more good in the Bible than bad. I think the Ten Commandments are a pretty respectable set of morals to follow.

How can you trust the bible. I'm sure you're mature enough to understand right from wrong, and sinning shouldn't be a problem. Don't let the bible tell you what to do, decide for yourself.

 

[arora]

I have no proof of anything, I'm just using my brain to give opinion for discussion.
I don't think i'm making any unreasonable thoughts here.

I see, no worries then, I should have cought the imo feel of it all 👍

But I'm not sure what point you're making with the vampire type person who committed murder?

For example those people declaring themselves Jedi's, and believers in the Force have chosen to do it as they like the story and the film etc. And we handily have evidence that it all came from a film with the director still alive today. He made it up. These people are not ill, they still have able minds (apart from a select few who really do believe with unshakable faith know that the force exists, they are ill.)

I was pointing out that some of them are and they follow fantasy to sick extremes, must have missed the (apart from...) part

 

[Moot]

I think the Ten Commandments are a pretty respectable set of morals to follow.

But you are not allowed to think that. You are just commanded.

 

[PeterJB]

How can you trust the bible. I'm sure you're mature enough to understand right from wrong, and sinning shouldn't be a problem. Don't let the bible tell you what to do, decide for yourself.

I have decided for myself to believe in God and an Afterlife. I am aware that the Bible says many questionable things, a lot of which I believe is wrong. I haven't read most of it, and I don't attend Church, but I appreciate the morals it preaches, which, surprise surprise, does include things other than misodgyny an genocide.

 

[Tic Tach]

And how many Christian nations still impose these laws I wonder?

Why not? The bi-bull says that god is unchanging. The same today, yesterday and forever. (Perhaps you didn't catch it way earlier, but I was a christian for a quarter century).

Not everything the Bible says is the direct word of God or Jesus

Actually, none of it was. That's just been claimed for a long time.

...a lot of it was probably influenced by the culture in which it originated

All of it was. There's nothing in it that one wouldn't expect from the people and cultures of the time.

...some of the things listed as 'sins' in Leviticus are absurd, but there is nothing there saying God made them.

Except that this verse (and others like it) say otherwise:

"All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness"

Being a Christian doesn't mean I want to stone Women for speaking when not spoken to, or bomb followers of other religions.

Right, and that's great, but how do you pick & choose what parts of the bible are the good parts, and which are the repulsive parts? I'll tell you how, you refer to your own natural moral intuitions, and begin the tradition of "cherry picking" the bible. All christians do this. It is a veritable grocery store for whatever one wants to choose as "gods will".

How many modern day Christians actively do that? There is more good in the Bible than bad.

You couldn't be more wrong on that.

http://www.evilbible.com/

...and please check this out:

http://www.truthbeknown.com/victims.htm

I think the Ten Commandments are a pretty respectable set of morals to follow.

Gah. Not this again.

http://bahnsenburner.blogspot.com/2007/05/moral-uselessness-of-10-commandments.html

 

[BrutherSuperior]

The bible is messed up beyond belief, almost all of it is written to profit the same kind of people time and time again. There are texts that stop women having power, allow torture, teach you to eliminate any kind of other religion which may not agree with their book.

I seriously suggest you take a subjective look at your own personal stance and belief in religion before pursuing any of the tasks in the bible. Try and realise what morals you think you should live by and not what the bible says, you only have to look into the past and realise what happened to society when they live by the bible's rules.

You know that the Bible is a collection of books/texts right?

Christianity, at least Catholicism, doesn't pay much attention to The Old Testament nor are the words taken literally. (can't say the same for all forms of Christianity though)

We're all born into sin and we're all sinners...that's how we're made. That God sent his only son, perfect man & perfect God, to offer the perfect sacrifice to repay the sin debt for humankind and rose up to heaven afterward is the core of Catholicism. That's it...very simple. Mel Gibson even made a movie about it if you're not inclined to read a book.

But viewing the Bible as 1 book and comparing it to others is kinda apples and oranges. Why? Aside from Euclid's Elements, it's the longest running book in the history of man and is easily the most scrutinized and reviewed collection of works ever. No book has had every word and page put under the microscope like the Bible has.

And if religion isn't your thing, which is your choice, it's a verifiable gold mine of historical content. If the Bible was a sham or a work of fiction, it would have been called out and discredited long ago.

 

[PeterJB]

But you are not allowed to think that. You are just commanded.

If you didn't have a choice then the entire world be Christian. It advises that you follow them. Though you would be a pretty awful Christian if you didn't.

 

[Owen.C93]

If the Bible was a sham or a work of fiction, it would have been called out and discredited long ago.

You underestimate the power that the church had only a hundred years ago. It was scrutinised many times.


What I have a problem with (and TBH it doesn't even happen where I live) is that laws and ethics are still derived from the bible. Can people really not figure stuff out for them selves before resorting to an old book written in times where we had little knowledge of the world and were highly prejudiced.

 

[PeterJB]

You underestimate the power that the church had only a hundred years ago. It was scrutinised many times.


What I have a problem with (and TBH it doesn't even happen where I live) is that laws and ethics are still derived from the bible. Can people really not figure stuff out for them selves before resorting to an old book written in times where we had little knowledge of the world and were highly prejudiced.

They are derived from the Bible because they are logical. It makes sense to live in a society where it is illegal to kill or to commit theft. Their doesn't have to be a religious element behind that now, it just happens to have originated from a religious source. Obviously some commandments aren't used in political law, as it is legal to swear and work on a Sunday for example.

Why not? The bi-bull says that god is unchanging. The same today, yesterday and forever. (Perhaps you didn't catch it way earlier, but I was a christian for a quarter century).



Actually, none of it was. That's just been claimed for a long time.

All of it was. There's nothing in it that one wouldn't expect from the people and cultures of the time.

Except that this verse (and others like it) say otherwise:

"All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness"

Right, and that's great, but how do you pick & choose what parts of the bible are the good parts, and which are the repulsive parts? I'll tell you how, you refer to your own natural moral intuitions, and begin the tradition of "cherry picking" the bible. All christians do this. It is a veritable grocery store for whatever one wants to choose as "gods will".

You couldn't be more wrong on that.

http://www.evilbible.com/

...and please check this out:

http://www.truthbeknown.com/victims.htm

Gah. Not this again.

http://bahnsenburner.blogspot.com/2007/05/moral-uselessness-of-10-commandments.html

The different between us is that I can respect other peoples opinions and refrain from forcing them to believe what I believe. Something you are clearly incapable of.


Anyway, it's 2 am. I'm done.

 

[Tic Tach]

We're all born into sin and we're all sinners...that's how we're made. That God sent his only son, perfect man & perfect God, to offer the perfect sacrifice to repay the sin debt for humankind and rose up to heaven afterward is the core of Catholicism.

Yes, yes, we all know the drill. But does this wild, fantastical fable actually map onto reality, or have you too been hypnotized by the psychologically appealing idea of someone else paying for you?

Please watch.

But viewing the Bible as 1 book and comparing it to others is kinda apples and oranges. Why? Aside from Euclid's Elements, it's the longest running book in the history of man and is easily the most scrutinized and reviewed collection of works ever. No book has had every word and page put under the microscope like the Bible has.

Yes, and for those who include intellectual honesty in their scrutiny, the bible utterly fails.

http://www.logicalfallacies.info/relevance/appeals/appeal-to-tradition/

And if religion isn't your thing, which is your choice, it's a verifiable gold mine of historical content

Oh my. That ain't right. The bible is not a history book, it is a faith book.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qi833q4v-sU

If the Bible was a sham or a work of fiction, it would have been called out and discredited long ago.

You fail to appreciate that for much of the last 1500 years, one would be killed in a most horrific way if proclaiming their disbelief. Kind of a neat, built-in part of the claimed "truth".

The difference between us is that I can respect other peoples opinions and refrain from forcing them to believe what I believe. Something you are clearly incapable of.

Wrong again. I don't have any "beliefs", and I'm not "forcing" you to agree with me on anything, I'm simply showing the flaws in your seemingly endless parade of baseless assertions. I am asking that you be intellectually honest, for without that we're doomed, but you seem to refuse to embrace that. I can't help that, only you can.

 

[Owen.C93]

They are derived from the Bible because they are logical. It makes sense to live in a society where it is illegal to kill or to commit theft. Their doesn't have to be a religious element behind that now, it just happens to have originated from a religious source. Obviously some commandments aren't used in political law, as it is legal to swear and work on a Sunday for example.

It's more of a problem in the US and Asia. Texas only teaches sex ed on abstinence and they now have the highest teen pregnancies in US. People and politicians are trying to pass laws against gays and I'm sure there are other examples.

What you are saying is that the laws in pace today are the logical ones from the bible, so you must ask what purpose does it serve if it tells us about logical laws that would happen without it, but also has some awful ones.

Do you really believe the bible has been a benefit to society? I personally think it has been the opposite.

 

[BrutherSuperior]

You underestimate the power that the church had only a hundred years ago. It was scrutinised many times.


What I have a problem with (and TBH it doesn't even happen where I live) is that laws and ethics are still derived from the bible. Can people really not figure stuff out for them selves before resorting to an old book written in times where we had little knowledge of the world and were highly prejudiced.

If laws and ethics are derived from man, whether monarchy or elected, then the individuals who proceed those men may change your rights at a whim. That's tyranny.

Ever since a man picked up a rock and scribbled on the wall of his cave, the question of 'where do we come from' or 'is there a higher power' has been around.

Do you think that's a coincidence?

I don't think so...

You fail to appreciate that for much of the last 1500 years, one would be killed in a most horrific way if proclaiming their disbelief. Kind of a neat, built-in part of the claimed "truth".

Your confusing Catholicism with Islam.

Nowhere in the New Testament does it say to kill people in the most horrific way if they proclaimed their disbelief. While religion has been used as a tool to unify a populace, or more morbidly used to instill fear and force integration, that's not Christian doctrine. That's the act of a tyrant.

 

[Tic Tach]

Your confusing Catholicism with Islam.

No, I am not. Islam is just as retarded though.

Nowhere in the New Testament does it say to kill people in the most horrific way if they proclaimed their disbelief.

Please re-read what I said. It is true.

While religion has been used as a tool to unify a populace, or more morbidly used to instill fear and force integration, that's not Christian doctrine. That's the act of a tyrant.

But you're saying that through the lens of modernity. The thing is, is that all of those christians through history could find their own interpretaion of "scripture" to back up their actions, and they could argue with you all day about it. Just as the miltant muslims of today.

 

[Lain]

Funny video (language warning):

 

[homeforsummer]

Maybe we are invisible to him and vice versa, that would explain alot.

God: "Where the hell did all these cities come from? I don't remember putting those there, and the animals sure didn't make them. And why has a satellite just collided with my cloud?..."

Actually, that makes me think. Even if we can't see each other, at least God has evidence that we exist...

Like others have said, freedom of religion, not freedom from religion, should be ideal.

👍

I don't believe in God but I'll be damned if I'm forced to live in a world where other people who might like, want or need to believe in a God are banned from doing so. Persecution is persecution.

Plus, what would humankind have to discuss if the existence of God wasn't a topic? The weather?

 

[Moot]

👍

I don't believe in God but I'll be damned if I'm forced to live in a world where other people who might like, want or need to believe in a God are banned from doing so. Persecution is persecution.

I'm not suggesting you ban mental illness, it just happens, it can be helped to be prevented from becoming too ill and there will be treatment for those that are ill depending on diagnosis etc. Illness is not a crime.
There needs to be legislation on religion, just like there are on drugs/tobacco/alcohol etc. It is a public safety issue as government has a responsibility to peoples mental health, with guidance from medical science.
Again there needs to be a definition of strength of belief as to how bad the illness is.
It might be necessary in the short term to make churches for over 18's only, just like drinking alcohol in Pubs for over 18's in the UK. That's a safety issue.
Just as there are alcoholics, there will become people who are convinced in faith rather than just have it as an idea. It is a danger as they won't seek help.

 

[DK]

[...] even the Pope, for example, [has] probably sinned at some point in their lives.

I'm pretty sure that any God will take a dim view of empty apologies for atrocities committed against children...

 

[homeforsummer]

It is a danger as they won't seek help.

It's not a danger other than for anyone who is prepared to make it a danger. Plenty of people practice religion without ever affecting anyone else, and plenty of non-religious people are crazy and will hurt people.

If an individual is dangerous it's because of the individual. Whether they're dangerous under religious influence or dangerous because they've had a terrible day and have a short temper is largely irrelevant.

 

[Moot]

It's not a danger other than for anyone who is prepared to make it a danger. Plenty of people practice religion without ever affecting anyone else, and plenty of non-religious people are crazy and will hurt people.

If an individual is dangerous it's because of the individual. Whether they're dangerous under religious influence or dangerous because they've had a terrible day and have a short temper is largely irrelevant.

I meant danger to mental health, not physical danger. Someone with strong faith is self harming, whether or not that is permitted can be defined by law, it's possible to argue for and against living in a world to be free to self-harm. The more concerning danger is of that illness spreading by preaching it to others as or reinforcing it to others in groups etc.
Dangers of the mind.

 

[Owen.C93]

Ever since a man picked up a rock and scribbled on the wall of his cave, the question of 'where do we come from' or 'is there a higher power' has been around.

Do you think that's a coincidence?

I don't think so...

Of course not, it's human nature to want to learn more and explore, despite that the bible tells you not to. But now we know where we came from, that a god has no power over the earth and many claims in the bible are incorrect.

 

[DK]

There's one thing about people saying that "God told me to do it" that just drives me mental. If I were to say that the ghost of Ayrton Senna talks to me, I would be ridiculed and I will possibly spend a few dozen hours with a psychiatrist. And yet, if you said (like one front-running Republican Presidential candidate) that God talks to you, and if I were to say that's crazy, a lot of people (including the aforementioned Republican Presidential candidate's supporters) would tell me to back off.

Double standards FTL...

 

[Tic Tach]

There's one thing about people saying that "God told me to do it" that just drives me mental.

Indeed. George Bush says he speaks to god every day, and Christians love him for it. If George Bush said he spoke to god through his hair dryer, they would think he was mad. I fail to see how the addition of a hair dryer makes it any more absurd.

 

[DK]

^ Maybe he defines prayer as speaking to God. It reminds me of a line from Father Ted:
"Old women are closer to God than we'll ever be. They get to that age and they don't need the operator anymore. They've got the direct line."

 

[PeterJB]

Indeed. George Bush says he speaks to god every day, and Christians love him for it. If George Bush said he spoke to god through his hair dryer, they would think he was mad. I fail to see how the addition of a hair dryer makes it any more absurd.

I doubt he means he has literal conversations with God, just that he prays every day.