Do you believe in God?

Tic Tach · Jul 23, 2011

PeterJB
They may not be proof that God does exist, but there isn't any proof that he doesn't either.

Actually, that's not true. Once again I will suggest you read up on the subject:

Here.

I mean really; do theists ever read material that looks critically at supernatural beliefs?

Religion has existed for millenia....

I guess if people read the links I provide, they wouldn't keep coming back with the already refuted assertions.

http://www.logicalfallacies.info/relevance/appeals/appeal-to-tradition/

http://www.logicalfallacies.info/relevance/appeals/appeal-to-popularity/

...maybe read the other logical fallacies on the menu on the right. Critical thinking skills are good.

....what about the first people to worship deities?

Gods and other supernatural explanations were simply primitive humanity's "first guess". We sought agency in things where there were none.

Surely there were some people originally who did not have parents to 'brainwash' them with religion, as they would have found it themselves?

See above.

PeterJB · Jul 23, 2011

Moot
They were not living in a conflict of reality, what they chose to believe was not contestable really. They also chose to believe in what they did, they were not instructed to, after it becomes a religion then it becomes instructed and a tool against the impressionable.
There is nothing wrong with finding something for yourself, but to argue that it's fundamentally true is not "ok". It's an idea.

In the same way that you are saying it is fundamentally not true. I'd say that can also be considered not "ok", and an idea.

I don't care if people do or don't believe in God, that's their choice (and yes I know you'll start ranting about how all thiests are brainwashed, but most people aren't as simple-minded as you seem to be saying), but to be insistent that all people believe one of the two ways are mentally ill is ridiculous. I am a Christian, I don't attend church, I believe in an entity and an afterlife, but I don't try and convert others, nor do I deem people of other religions or no religion at all to be mentally ill, I respect their decisions, as it's their choice. I only deem thiesm or athiesm to become a problem if it causes people to inflict deliberate harm on non-believers (of believers), like Al'Qaeda for example, as a way of converting others.

There is no proof either way, both sides of the argument have compelling evidence, and we are unlikely to find proof for either side. Unless God (whoever one holds that to be), appears for all to see, or somebody discovers the cause of the big bang and/or what happened before it.

arora · Jul 23, 2011

Moot,can you provide some proof of this illness claim?

I can't find it here http://allpsych.com/disorders/disorders_dsmIVcodes.html or in any other credible source for that mater.

Or, are you speaking of the 'god helmet'? That did not prove religion was an illness and the theory was debunked anyway. In fact, I think you can buy one on the Internet as a party toy. I'm sure there are Christians with epilepsy but not every Christian has epilepsy, besides, how positive of an experience can you have from a seizure?

Your Jedi argument makes no sense either as there are people convicted of murder because they thought they were vampires after watching movies, wanting to drink their dead friends blood and such. Allan Menzies is one of them.

http://www.trutv.com/library/crime/serial_killers/weird/vampires/13.html

I don't think he was found mentally ill but cba to read up on him, doesn't mater as you'll probably say The Queen of the Damned was his bible just as the holy bible is mine.

I bit, hook line and sinker on your outrageous claims because I want to read more of your posts 👍 I hope I'm wrong because I would sincerely like to read up on possible causes as well as proposed treatments.(seriously)

PeterJB · Jul 23, 2011

Tic Tach
Actually, that's not true. Once again I will suggest you read up on the subject:

Here.

I mean really; do theists ever read material that looks critically at supernatural beliefs?

How does one book prove anything? If scientists worldwide managed to unanimously conclude that there is no God, and in a way that all people could see and understand, then we probably wouldn't be having this discussion. Science has the potential to find explanations for everything except who, or what created the universe, and what it started from. When science can find concrete explanations for both of those questions, and it is not God, then I shall accept that He does not exist. Though I can't imagine either of those questions will be answered any time soon, if ever.

Owen.C93 · Jul 23, 2011

PeterJB
They may not be proof that God does exist, but there isn't any proof that he doesn't either.

Religion has existed for millenia, what about the first people to worship deities? Surely there were some people originally who did not have parents to 'brainwash' them with religion, as they would have found it themselves?

Religion was a common solution to the idea that nobody had the slightest clue how things worked in the world. Later on when the 1st world began to understand the world it was purely for profiteering on peoples blind believe for those in a higher stature than them.

The fact it still exists in the first world now is pretty scary, the hold that religion has on the world is unfounded but you have to say it is dieing off at an incredible rate.

Grand Prix · Jul 23, 2011

"Daddy, what happens when we die?"

"Sorry Billy, I can't tell you that until you're 18."

"Why?"

"I can't tell you that, you'll find out in due time. Now go sleep."

To enforce a ban of teaching religious ideals is to curtail inquisition in the first place. Most atheists are atheists, because they learned to question beliefs, as Tic Tach's latest image shows. Children are told about Santa Claus so that they can learn to question that belief in Santa Claus later on, or indeed, question anything. Whether they want to apply that same question to God should be completely up to them. Not many do, and understandably so. A belief in God offers many more benefits than a sack of toys.

Like others have said, freedom of religion, not freedom from religion, should be ideal.

PeterJB · Jul 23, 2011

Owen.C93
Religion was a common solution to the idea that nobody had the slightest clue how things worked in the world. Later on when the 1st world began to understand the world it was purely for profiteering on peoples blind believe for those in a higher stature than them.

The fact it still exists in the first world now is pretty scary, the hold that religion has on the world is unfounded but you have to say it is dieing off at an incredible rate.

As I have said before, science can explain how everyone and everything in the universe operates, but it cannot explain why it operates the way it does.

How is it scary that 90% of the world believes the universe was created and is controlled by an all powerful being and that there is life after death? I find it scary to think everything is just there because it is and that we become nothing when we die. It gives everything no point to its existence.

Moot · Jul 23, 2011

PeterJB
In the same way that you are saying it is fundamentally not true. I'd say that can also be considered not "ok", and an idea.

I don't care if people do or don't believe in God, that's their choice (and yes I know you'll start ranting about how all thiests are brainwashed, but most people aren't as simple-minded as you seem to be saying), but to be insistent that all people believe one of the two ways are mentally ill is ridiculous. I am a Christian, I don't attend church, I believe in an entity and an afterlife, but I don't try and convert others, nor do I deem people of other religions or no religion at all to be mentally ill, I respect their decisions, as it's their choice. I only deem thiesm or athiesm to become a problem if it causes people to inflict deliberate harm on non-believers (of believers), like Al'Qaeda for example, as a way of converting others.

There is no proof either way, both sides of the argument have compelling evidence, and we are unlikely to find proof for either side. Unless God (whoever one holds that to be), appears for all to see, or somebody discovers the cause of the big bang and/or what happened before it.

I'm not saying it's fundamentally untrue am I. I'm saying to be convinced of something like god is an illness. To have an idea of god is not an illness, to have an idea there is no god is not an illness.
For you to believe there is an afterlife is a mental illness. But if you have the idea of it and hope it is true is not a mental illness. So I would define you as mentally ill in that respect. But I get the impression you think you are healthy to believe in an afterlife?

PeterJB
How is it scary that 90% of the world believes the universe was created and is controlled by an all powerful being and that there is life after death? I find it scary to think everything is just there because it is and that we become nothing when we die. It gives everything no point to its existence.

That's 2 different fears.
One fear is seeing about recognising how impressionable our minds are to be led up the loony tree ( I just made up that figure of speech, it doesn't really exist).
The other fear is about death.
It's kind of helpful that we are naturally scared of death. It's keeps us alive.

Both are valid fears.

Hun200kmh · Jul 23, 2011

Tic Tach
Actually, that's not true. Once again I will suggest you read up on the subject:

Here.

Look, Tic Tach ... I already wrote in this same thread how marxism dealt with religion, you don't need to put up a link to a marxist writer, what those guys think, and especially how intolerable it is to them that THEIR TRUTH isn't accepted ... is history now.

Anyway, atheism and atheists don't bother me, I always like a good discussion about the subject. I only demand from them and their belief in their purely material existence that they respect the fact that I think there's more to Man than meets the eye, and of course, that I have the freedom to raise my children telling them what I think of such a fundamental issue.

Of course, as you pity my kids for me to raise them that way, you must also consider I pity your kids for being raised according to your own dogma. You don't teach them that maybe God doesn't exist. You teach them God doesn't exist. By all means, do it. I guess my kids will have more chance to question what I tell them than atheist's kids have.

rocko100 · Jul 23, 2011

Hun200kmh
Of course, as you pity my kids for me to raise them that way, you must also consider I pity your kids for being raised according to your own dogma. You don't teach them that maybe God doesn't exist. You teach them God doesn't exist. By all means, do it. I guess my kids will have more chance to question what I tell them than atheist's kids have.

exactly

PeterJB · Jul 23, 2011

Moot
I'm not saying it's fundamentally untrue am I. I'm saying to be convinced of something like god is an illness. To have an idea of god is not an illness, to have an idea there is no god is not an illness.
For you to believe there is an afterlife is a mental illness. But if you have the idea of it and hope it is true is not a mental illness. So I would define you as mentally ill in that respect. But I get the impression you think you are healthy to believe in an afterlife?

Oh great, now we've resorted to direct personal attacks.

I think that saying people are mentally ill for have a fundamental thiest believe is basically ones way of saying they have a fundamental athiest belief. You would to be pretty certain of one idea to have such an extreme view of those who believe in the other. How an I damaging anybody or myself by believing in an afterlife? I don't try and force that belief onto others, nor do I declare them insane for not believing in it. By your definition, 90% of the world is insane, surely with such an overwhelming majority, this 'insanity' should be considered the norm?

Joel · Jul 23, 2011

PeterJB
How is it scary that 90% of the world believes the universe was created and is controlled by an all powerful being and that there is life after death? I find it scary to think everything is just there because it is and that we become nothing when we die. It gives everything no point to its existence.

I find that a peaceful thought to be honest. It means to me that I was nothing for billions of years before I was born, and I'll exist for a period of roughly 70 to 80 years or so if I'm lucky, and after that I'll be gone and things will be just the way they were for billions of years. It makes me appreciate the little things in life when I look at it that way.

When I was younger and a Christian, I used to think that my life on Earth would suck, and that it wasn't that much fun because Heaven was supposed to be way better. Now that I've left my faith behind and embraced the idea of no afterlife, I find joy in all kinds of things in life. Simple things, like waking up and seeing a blue sky, or driving down a country road on a sunny day, playing sports, laughing, spending time with the people I love, I cherish all of these moments and enjoy them, because it's all I'll ever have. And I'm OK with that.

The way I find purpose in my life is to be the best person I can be, and treat the people close to me right. I think that's all the purpose I need to live my life, and I'd much rather be doing things out of service for others as I do now, than to do it for God so I can get to heaven as I did when I was younger.

Owen.C93 · Jul 23, 2011

PeterJB
As I have said before, science can explain how everyone and everything in the universe operates, but it cannot explain why it operates the way it does.

Yes it does.

PeterJB
How is it scary that 90% of the world believes the universe was created and is controlled by an all powerful being and that there is life after death? I find it scary to think everything is just there because it is and that we become nothing when we die. It gives everything no point to its existence.

Because there is no reason to believe that. When has there ever been any reason to suspect that infact facts are wrong and everything is controlled by something beyond our control. When has there ever been reason to believe that something extraordinary happens when you die, that's just something made up not to make you feel depressed about the idea of dieing.

As to the point of existence, well everything wants to multiply, if it didn't it would exist in the first place. So some creatures multiply by being incredibly horny, we have these things called emotions which stop us killing each other so we can reproduce more and these lead us to want to be nice and feel happy. If you can't find a point to living other than hoping you get to live for some more in a place slightly better for eternity then that's worrying.

Tic Tach · Jul 23, 2011

PeterJB
As I have said before, science can explain how everyone and everything in the universe operates, but it cannot explain why it operates the way it does.

a) You are wrong in saying that our tool of science (the best tool we have in knowing and understanding our world and the cosmos) cannot explain something. You must display that it cannot, and you can't, for what we now know thanks to the hard work of science is staggering.

b) You also walk into a snare when you conclude and insist that there is a "why". Perhaps you run around in circles like a dog chasing it's tail when you keep chasing the why question. The universe doesn't owe you meaning.

How is it scary that 90% of the world believes the universe was created and is controlled by an all powerful being and that there is life after death?

Does it not give you pause that much of the world is illiterate, or that something like 95% of the Academy of Science is non-theistic? If you're impressed with numbers and popularity, why not listen to the smart people?

I find it scary to think everything is just there because it is and that we become nothing when we die. It gives everything no point to its existence.

Your fear has invented your god.

Men have had the vanity to pretend that the whole universe was made for them, whilst in reality the whole universe does not suspect their existence. (Camille Flammarion)

Exorcet · Jul 23, 2011

PeterJB
It gives everything no point to its existence.

What point does anything need? I came to the conclusion that there is no purpose to my being here a long time ago and it only made life easier because it meant I could do what I wanted, not what I was "meant" to do.

Owen.C93 · Jul 23, 2011

I think there is a difference in religion and non religion which needs to be mentioned, religious people believe the universe was created for them and thus they have a purpose, when in reality we are just a by product of the natural growth of the universe. Which is why there doesn't need to be a purpose.

Tic Tach · Jul 23, 2011

Well I don't think we are for anything. We're just products of evolution. You can say “Gee, your life must be pretty bleak if you don't think there's a purpose.” But I am anticipating having a good lunch. (James Watson)

Isn't it enough to see that a garden is beautiful without having to believe that there are fairies at the bottom of it too? (Douglas Adams)

MatskiMonk · Jul 23, 2011

PeterJB
I find it scary to think everything is just there because it is and that we become nothing when we die. It gives everything no point to its existence.

I despise this way of thinking in a way I can barely articulate... How does a greater being give validity to an individual's existence.. why do you need something higher to justify your existence..?

... life is a reaction, an equation... if the answer was already there, THEN there would be no point to anything... but the answer isn't there... people who see religion as the answer to the BIG question are negating the journey in favour of the answer...

.. do I rule out a "God", no, I have an open mind... have I yet heard a definition that would fit what I believe a "God" would be? no. What I do believe is that one day, Science will be able to explain why religion exists.

.. hhmmm

PeterJB · Jul 23, 2011

Owen.C93
Yes it does.

Because there is no reason to believe that. When has there ever been any reason to suspect that infact facts are wrong and everything is controlled by something beyond our control. When has there ever been reason to believe that something extraordinary happens when you die, that's just something made up not to make you feel depressed about the idea of dieing.

As to the point of existence, well everything wants to multiply, if it didn't it would exist in the first place. So some creatures multiply by being incredibly horny, we have these things called emotions which stop us killing each other so we can reproduce more and these lead us to want to be nice and feel happy. If you can't find a point to living other than hoping you get to live for some more in a place slightly better for eternity then that's worrying.

If I saw no point to this life and felt that Heaven was the only way forward then I probably would have already blown my brains out. I accept that some people believe there is no afterlife, and I accept that this could be true, as there is no proof against it, however I also accept that the existence of an afterlife could be true, I can't prove either, but I simply chose to believe that there is an afterlife. I believe in living this life to the fullest and embracing all I can about it, because for all I know this could be it, but I prefer to think it isn't.

dylansan · Jul 23, 2011

Hun200kmh
Of course, as you pity my kids for me to raise them that way, you must also consider I pity your kids for being raised according to your own dogma. You don't teach them that maybe God doesn't exist. You teach them God doesn't exist. By all means, do it.

That's a pretty big assumption. I, for one, don't plan to tell my children that God doesn't exist. (For one, that's not even what atheism is...) I plan to tell them nothing about God, and when they hear about it from other people, hopefully they will ask me, and I will tell them that I don't have any reason to believe in a God, and that there may be one, but I do not

I guess my kids will have more chance to question what I tell them than atheist's kids have.

You show a lack of understanding of what atheism is. It is not the belief that there is no god, it is the lack of belief that there is one. Atheists wouldn't tell their kids there is no god, without proof that he doesn't exist. That's just as bad as saying God does exist. Atheists would tell them not to believe there is a god or isn't a god unless they find evidence to prove either way. All the kids have to do is look for evidence, and if they find substantial proof for or against god, well there you have it.

For the record, I don't believe anyone has told you how you will raise your kids, but merely brought up how some people raise their kids, and you have taken it personally, I assume because that is how you plan to/are raising them. The fact that you assert how all atheists raise their kids is quite irritating. :irked:

Owen.C93 · Jul 23, 2011

PeterJB
If I saw no point to this life and felt that Heaven was the only way forward then I probably would have already blown my brains out. I accept that some people believe there is no afterlife, and I accept that this could be true, as there is no proof against it, however I also accept that the existence of an afterlife could be true, I can't prove either, but I simply chose to believe that there is an afterlife. I believe in living this life to the fullest and embracing all I can about it, because for all I know this could be it, but I prefer to think it isn't.

There's no proof that the god wont end the world tomorrow either. But it would be pretty irrational to believe it, no?

You would be considered the craziest man in the world if you believed in everything that didn't have proof against it.

Moot · Jul 23, 2011

PeterJB
Oh great, now we've resorted to direct personal attacks.

I think that saying people are mentally ill for have a fundamental thiest believe is basically ones way of saying they have a fundamental athiest belief. You would to be pretty certain of one idea to have such an extreme view of those who believe in the other. How an I damaging anybody or myself by believing in an afterlife? I don't try and force that belief onto others, nor do I declare them insane for not believing in it. By your definition, 90% of the world is insane, surely with such an overwhelming majority, this 'insanity' should be considered the norm?

Why are you thinking being thought of as ill as a personal attack? I don't mean it in a vindictive way. My interpretation of your symptoms is that it's of a mental illness. I don't dislike you for being ill, or hope bad things happen to you.
I have a mental illness with depression and i'm glad when people can recognise it whether they are strangers or medical professionals (not if they are being plain rude or mocking though). I acknowledge I have it, due to documented symptoms, and I enquire and discuss it with my doctor. And I have, with strong deliberation gone through and accepted actual treatment.
Contextually I can appreciate just being called "your mentally ill" would be rude and impolite perhaps, but I can't see other ways of giving my view on that. You can say it back to me if that balances the exchange.
I have already said I think most people are a bit ill in the mind. That is the norm. But it's interesting to sift through to see what particularities there are, religion is one mental illness, depression is another.

Oh and I'm not saying you are harmful to others. But I could think in some ways it is harmful to yourself. But not severely so. I would think it was harmful to others if you told them afterlife exists, if they were young or otherwise vulnerable.

MatskiMonk · Jul 23, 2011

PeterJB
If I saw no point to this life and felt that Heaven was the only way forward then I probably would have already blown my brains out.

Doesn't suicide result in Hell not Heaven? and if Heaven existed for those that were free from sin, then shouldn't all those that believe in heaven kill all new-born babies before they have chance to sin, in order to garauntee their off-spring a place in heaven.... this of course would lead to an extinction of the species...

Tic Tach · Jul 23, 2011

MatskiMonk
What I do believe is that one day, Science will be able to explain why religion exists.

Do you believe in God?

Do you believe in god?

Of course, without him nothing would exist!

Maybe.

No way!

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