Do you think that GT is losing the battle against Forza?

[Nova solo]

I am really very surprised that there are people who find that TDU is not a simulation!?!?! I find the behaviors of the cars very realistic when all the assistances are removed.

Personally, I always preferred GT4 than Forza. And then, Nurburgring on Forza is ridiculous and much less realistic than on GT4.

I do not think only one play which manages the collisions is more realistic than a play which do not manage them. Most important it is the behavior of the car and the feelings of drive.

As for Forza 2 on xbox 360, I think that its lifespan will be very short, because it should not be forgotten that there will be soon GTR.

Sorry for my english 'cause i'm french

 

[Cobra_UK]

I never had a chance to try TDU in depth mate. I had a few runs at a friend's house but I haven't bought a XBOX360, that will probably change next year when FM2 and GTR are released. I did like TDU but I'm more of a circuit racer myself.

I didn't like the Nurburgring in FM as much as I liked it in GT4 either but since it's such a big track, over 130 turns, or around that, I do think it's easier to drive on for novice players due to the suggested line aid.

I hope FM2 improves on that because The Ring is important to me. By the way, if anyone from UK is considering going there in the next year or so join the club, and here is a website with a lot of information you'll need.http://nurburgring.org.uk/

 

[Scaff]

FM needs to improve the 'ring in a big way for FM2 as the current version has some quite serious issues in terms of width, length and corner make-up.

Having driven the real thing (I also am hoping to revisit next year during the ADAC 24hrs) FM version is just plain nasty, the stupidly high curbs need to go, the track is too wide in almost its entire length and its also about a 1/4 too long (taken from the Forza guide length).

EPR gets the corner structure right and GT4 gets the bunpy nature right and its great to see the track in so many games, but I'm still waiting on the definative version so fingers crossed for FM2 or GT5 (and maybe EPR2).

Regards

Scaff

 

[MasterGT]

I have yet to see any evidence that PD gives a flying flip about any game, anywhere, on any platform, except Gran Turismo. They live in their own world and find their own path.

We are just accomplices or co-conspirators that pay their way.

Cheers,

MasterGT

 

[Cobra_UK]

They live in their own world...

I'm afraid that there may be their genius and their demise. I can't imagine console gaming world without a GT game, but it's not GT's world any more. Forza Motorsport has proved to be a contender for the crown and the competition will be fierce. I think that's good news for us and it hopefuly means better GT and FM games.

 

[Zer0]

In the real world GT4 Prologue sold more copies than Forza, the Forza brand become a minimal impact in GT series, when this number raises then may be we can speak about a real battle(I think that PC sims have more impact in GT4 than Forza does).

GT5 seems the major upgrade in the series(g25+clutch, cockpit view, damage, online, physics, etc), Forza2 is happy with his first 240º FF wheel, no cockpits and no major gameplay announced. Graphics attempt 100% sure than become less impressive than the Polyphony can do this time with an equal or superior hardware.

I don't see a real battle, instead of the typical forum battles.

 

[Mr Fox]

I guess it's just down to personal preference.

I don't think GT is loosing to FM just yet. I don't think overall GT4 is better than FM. I think GT will loose the next round, FM2 vs no GT in 2007. We'll see what happens when GT5 is released, whenever that may be.

I agree FM will win the next round, as PD arnt even in the running, this is crucial point imo.

The absence of a Next-Gen GT title to compete with FM2, will see many of PD's fans looking towards FM2 for there raceing fix, If FM2 lives up to its promises and hype, Fm will garner many new fans many poached directly from GT's fan base, the battle should heat up once FM3 is released though.

At the end of the day its which game GT5 or FM3 delivers the content/features that the majority of driving/racing fans want, FM have to take what they already have and make big improvements as well as adding new vehicles & tracks ect ect, wheres as PD have to break into new areas (such as online multiplayer), they are going to have to take on FM's features directly, and improve certain aspects of the gameplay that the GT fans have been moaning about for years now. fancy shmancy graphics and crap loads of cars wont cut it imo as both games have great graphics and both offer loads of cars, its the features like online Multiplayer, car customisation, and quality gameplay/driving physics, that will be the deciding factors imo.

hopefully this new contender to GT's crown , will give PD that much needed kick up the ass to focus on what they really need to do to stay top dog, competition is a good thing as both GT and FM will try harder to win over the fans

 

[MasterGT]

In the real world GT4 Prologue sold more copies than Forza, the Forza brand become a minimal impact in GT series, when this number raises then may be we can speak about a real battle(I think that PC sims have more impact in GT4 than Forza does).

GT5 seems the major upgrade in the series(g25+clutch, cockpit view, damage, online, physics, etc), Forza2 is happy with his first 240º FF wheel, no cockpits and no major gameplay announced. Graphics attempt 100% sure than become less impressive than the Polyphony can do this time with an equal or superior hardware.

I don't see a real battle, instead of the typical forum battles.

Bingo!

The only comment that I may not agree with 100% is just how much PC sims affect PD's thinking. In the past, it seems they have had their hands full working around the PS2's hardware problems. In other words, it didn't matter what was in other games, the hardware limited just what could be accomplished.

I've never seen FM unit numbers, but yours don't surprise me. FM2's may be a bit different, though.

Cheers,

MasterGT

 

[Zer0]

The only comment that I may not agree with 100% is just how much PC sims affect PD's thinking.

I've never seen FM unit numbers, but yours don't surprise me. FM2's may be a bit different, though.

I say because I see a lot more GT players going to PC sims than to Forza.

Gran Turismo 4 Prologue PS2 Sony 0.78 0.00 0.56 1.3
Forza Motorsport XBX Microsoft 0.00 0.45 0.56 1.01

http://www.vgcharts.org/

 

[Cobra_UK]

Gran Turismo 4 Prologue PS2 Sony 0.78 0.00 0.56 1.3
Forza Motorsport XBX Microsoft 0.00 0.45 0.56 1.01

http://www.vgcharts.org/

Wow , I've never looked into how many sales FM had but that's not may at all. It will be interesting to sse how well FM2 sells.

 

[Kent]

Personally, I'm not suprised by those sales.
When I bought a used xbox they were giving away copies of Forza.
I've come to think Forza was more hype than anything else. I think the best racing community for Xbox is probably the PGR group.

In the future, much like someone else here mentioned, if GTR comes to the box there will be little chance for Forza to make a great claim to the market.

None the less, with AC and RE coming to the X360, I'm thinking a Forza2 adventure will be in my future.

 

[RedOak]

I'd like to point out that when i bought my second PS2, they were giving away a copy of GT3 (Gt4 not out at the time)... Not sure if the sales figure is a good example.

 

[Zer0]

I'd like to point out that when i bought my second PS2, they were giving away a copy of GT3 (Gt4 not out at the time)... Not sure if the sales figure is a good example.

 

[amar212]

This debate has no sense IMHO.

There an't be any "winning" or "loosing" since GT and FM are on different platforms. Also, GT series has coped 40M copies in sales in past 5 years, while Forza maybe did 1M, while no sure about FM numbers since I lack offical numbers.

GT4 has sold in over 6M, and it still sells because Sony has put in inside special bundle - at least for PAL territories - together with PS2 and Tourist Trophy for 149 euros, mantaining PS2 production and sales. On the other side, Xbox is stopped in market and MS is just selling X360 at this point - as far as PAL is concerned - and I guesss same situation is on other territories.

Lack of true force feedback in X360 is something I rather would't comment - MS payed zillions for different licences, techologies, patents and so on - but they didn't pay Immerssion for True FF software - even they'd payed millions to them in fabulous rumble-court-case, while Sony didn't. In the end, PS3 has just added support for all DFP wheels in last PS3 update, while X360 just got that wonderful childlish-looking "force feedback"wireless wheel that I do not have a slightest urge to buy.

I would really like Forza 2 to be a great game, and I'm also looking forward to GTR on X360 - but lack of true FF technology will - in many aspects - determine the answer of the question of this thread.

 

[MasterGT]

Hmmm, I thought the 360 was getting true force feedback.
Without it, I'm afraid FM2 is doomed to be a second tier game.

Thanks, Amar212,

MasterGT

 

[MasterGT]

PD's own GT4 numbers are:

Release Title Units (K)*
2005/03/10 GRAN TURISMO 4 (Korea) 60
2005/03/09 GRAN TURISMO 4 (Europe) 4,400
2005/02/22 GRAN TURISMO 4 (North America) 2,410
2004/12/28 GRAN TURISMO 4 (SE Asia) 60
2004/12/28 GRAN TURISMO 4 (Japan) 1,130
2004/05/26 GRAN TURISMO 4 “Prologue” (Europe) 410
2004/01/15 GRAN TURISMO 4 “Prologue” (Korea) 50
2003/12/04 GRAN TURISMO 4 “Prologue” (SE Asia) 110
2003/12/04 GRAN TURISMO 4 “Prologue” (Japan) 790

*as of September 2006

GT3's North American number is so high because it was packed with the console, for a while.

Cheers,

MasterGT

 

[VNAF Ace]

amar212... The new Xbox 360 Wireless Racing Wheel has true force feedback.

 

[Cobra_UK]

amar212... The new Xbox 360 Wireless Racing Wheel has true force feedback.

Thanks for confirming this, I thought it did but I wasn't sure. The wheel is apparently quite good but I've heard it's not adjustable in terms of sensitivity. Is this true? I'm looking to buy GTR and FM2 and it's really important to me that I can set the sensitivity to match in both games.

Master GT can you post the sales figures for GT, GT2 and GT3 please? Or at least tell me where to find them. I want to check something out.

 

[Scaff]

Thanks for confirming this, I thought it did but I wasn't sure. The wheel is apparently quite good but I've heard it's not adjustable in terms of sensitivity. Is this true? I'm looking to buy GTR and FM2 and it's really important to me that I can set the sensitivity to match in both games.

Master GT can you post the sales figures for GT, GT2 and GT3 please? Or at least tell me where to find them. I wan to check something out.

http://hardware.teamxbox.com/reviews/xbox-360/69/Xbox-360-Wireless-Racing-Wheel/p1/

While the review is rather 'gushing' to say the least it does confirm true force feedback (which is a plus) but also confirm the lack of set-up adjustability (which is a minus).

Regards

Scaff

 

[Zer0]

Master GT can you post the sales figures for GT, GT2 and GT3 please? Or at least tell me where to find them. I wan to check something out.

http://www.polyphony.co.jp/english/list.html

 

[GT40 MKII]

Ill still stick with GT

 

[VNAF Ace]

IGN: Xbox 360 Wireless Steering Wheel Review

 

[JohnBM01]

I normally thought the biggest selling point to Forza vs. GT4 was that Forza could be played online via the highly-popular and highly-successful XBOX Live. Most people threatened to kill themselves or petition Polyphony Digital when GT4 dropped online play. I always said that the game has to be good on its own before anyone can enjoy it online. Only a few games can actually be better online than offline. And I'm not talking about ditching AI-controlled opponents for human opponents, but more of "can an online experience be better than going alone? Is the single player horrible while multiplayer is senational?"

Forza did create something that people either loved or hated- the first-ever fully-integrated online Career Mode. What do you make of this Forza/GT deal in terms of multiplay?

 

[amar212]

I would not go bashing over IGN or whoevers review, but I stay pretty much confident when saying that X360's OS isn't compatible with force feedback technology as we know it from PS2 - GT series, F355, TOCA and other FF games respectivelly. X360 supports force feedback technology known as axle force feedback, which is not true FF but derivate of it.

However, I could be wrong, which is always an option.

 

[CAMAROBOY69]

I was a huge GT fan from GT2, GT3 (loved the hybrids) and even enjoyed GT4. Spent many many hours in the photomode and shared with this site.
I am very open minded and non-bias but I have to say that Forza completely pulled me away from the GT series. On their first try they really nailed it. The demo sucked but the full version was excellent. I don't even plan on getting a PS3 or GT5 unless they make some major changes. The ability to actually play online with your friends really put the GT series to shame. I am not a GT basher or hater. I just got converted to a Forza fan after getting hooked on the game for almost a year straight. You could sell cars to friends and buy cars along with much much more. You could even play the career online and make money. Yes GT4 definetly has better graphics but I had much more FUN playing Forza with all my friends. Plus we could completely customize our cars and the physics were better.
Do I think GT is losing the battle to Forza. No. However I feel there is much more replay value in games like Forza when you can actually play online and you have the ability to fully customize your car. Also Keep in mind Forza 2 is going to be much better than the first one. I know it wont have the grapics of GT5 but its still going to be a great game.
I will keep an eye on GT5 and if it really impresses me then I might even consider buying a PS3 eventually. As of right now my vote goes to Forza.

 

[Cobra_UK]

Thank you for the links ZerO
GT4 just under 8 million copies sold
GT3 over 14 and a half million copies sold
GT2 over 9 million copies sold
GT just under 11 million copies sold
(quick maths...)

So far GT4 was the longest GT game in development, around 4 years, and the worst selling. Before GT4, GT games usually took around 2 years to develop. GT3 was the best selling game, probably partly due to it being bundled with the PS2 at times (although so were GT, GT2 and GT4). Given the fact that GT4 had the widest PS2 consumer base it's number of sales show popularity of the GT series is declining. Just under 8 million copies sold is still a financial success for Sony and PD but the GT franchise market share is slipping. If GT5 gets delayed to 2009/2010 (more than likely) it will make it the longest GT game in development, 5/6 years. Match that to the fact that the PS3 might not have the widest consumer base again, in this generation of consoles. The fact that the Forza Motorsport franchise may have 2 releases until then and that PD has upset a lot of GT franchise fans recently with the promise of GT4 Online and GTHD cancelled and the future doesn't look so rosy for the "King" of driving games. I do still believe that the GT franchise won't go away and PD studios will always be a force to be reckoned with.

 

[Kent]

Let's not forget you are looking at just over a year of sales on GT4 and the others are all showing total sales.
That means GT4 is actually doing rather well. 👍
Especially considering the fact that it his one year before the PS3.

Also, I still content that Forza's physics were not better than GT4's (not even close). 👎

Finally, I just want to remind you guys that this is about the next gen, not this one. If the simple fan-boy-tastic back and forth of GT4 and Forza continues this thread will not have much of a future. 👍

In terms of the next gen...
I still believe GT5's changes will be the deciding factor.
Xbox Forza guys are already set to buy Forza and probably own a 360.
Most of the PS3 possibles are waiting to see GT5 before anything is bought.

So basically, the fanboys on each side are getting in line as you would expect but it is mostly the Sony people who are waiting to decide (it seems most of the Forza guys already know what they are going with).

Once you've shown that you have no intention of buying one, it is hard to take commentary as unbiased (especially if there is subjective evaluation such as physics ratings).

I'm waiting to see everything before I purchase anything... I just hope it pays off (regardless of the system I go with).

 

[Famine]

I've got a feeling that the whole gaming industry is in a bit of a decline.

The boom in computer/video games sales was driven by the now-30-somethings. They (by which I mean "we") grew up with the first spurt of home computers, then found ourselves with little time for it (due to studying/jobs/girls) - coinciding with the late 80s/early 90s slump - and, at the end of the 90s, found ourselves with some free time and disposable income. Now we're running out of time and income due to wives/jobs/kids.

Have a look at console sales...
Sony PlayStation 2 (Released 2000): 103.69 million
Sony PlayStation (Released 1995): 102.49 million
Nintendo Entertainment System (Released 1985): 60 million
Super Nintendo Entertainment System (Released 1991): 49 million
Nintendo 64 (Released 1996): 32.93 million
Sega Mega Drive/Sega Genesis (Released 1989): 29 million
Microsoft Xbox (Released 2001): 24 million
Nintendo GameCube (Released 2001): 21.20 million
Sega Master System (Released 1986): 13 million
Sega Dreamcast (Released 1998): 10.6 million
Sega Saturn (Released 1994): 10 million
Sega CD (Released 1992): 6 million
(Source: Wikipedia)

The PlayStation bucks the trend, as it has become synonymous with home video gaming - and has quite the lifespan for each console. But look at Nintendo - each sells poorer than the last. The 2001 XBox is outsold by the 1989 Sega MegaDrive. The top selling game of all time - Super Mario Bros. 3 - is for the 1985 NES, and only 6 of the top 20 were for machines now comprising the previous generation (PS2/XBox/GameCube).

Though GT's sales may be falling, you can't necessarily conclude that its market share is falling because the whole industry seems to be in decline. If any of the current gen consoles (PS3/XBox360/Wii) sells as much as their predecessors I would be very surprised.

 

[Mr Fox]

I personally dont belive were seeing a decline in computer gaming, what i do see is a market that is starting to level out.

Im part of that generation you speak of, i grew up with the NES then the SNES/Mega Drive, then spent my mid/late teens on the playstation, in fact i grew up on a steady diet of gaming, weather that was in the Arcades or at home on the PC playing day of the tentacle

back then gameing wasnt taken seriously, the majority people who played those games were around my age, very very few people older than myself played computer games let alone console games.

what we noticed through the mid 90's to the present is the industry moveing from infancy to full blown mainstream acceptance, today gameing isnt just sumthing for the kiddies to do, people of all ages (generally men) are gamers, go back to when i was a kid, no one i knew over 30 was seriously into computer games, they just bought the darn things to keep their kids happy.

nowadays everythings differant, but now computer gaming has reached mainstream status its leveling out, so what were going to see from now on isnt going to be major declines or massive booms, but market fluctuations atleast thats how i see it.

 

[ixnay]

Where's the NFS: Underground option?