Do you think that GT is losing the battle against Forza?

[The Vanishing Boy]

-> Now with the force feedback issues concerning about GT5 being discussed on the other thread, many feared that if FFB won't be featured will result as a "step backwards" on the series. And right now, XB360 introduced a wireless steering wheel not too long ago. Is Forza already inching in GT right now?

-> Are Forza fanboys laughing their butt off, because GT fanboys will never learn that the GT series is on a brink of rotting itself out? Please continue the discussion guys!

(:

 

[Hun200kmh]

I can't comment on Forza, because I've never driven it. But, being an Enthusia fan myself (a game that is almost unknown so, profit-wise, a loser), I must say that if any strong company wants to battle GT, this is the moment.

Why? Because - at least to me - GT4 clearly showed the limit of the Gran Turismo series progression: Awesome graphics (the best), hundreds of cars (no game has more), lots of excelent, well-designed phantasy tracks, and well-recreated real tracks.

But ... how about AI, physics and sound? (note to readers: I don't care much about online and car damage; and I couldn't care less about many other "features" discussed in these forums, like car painting and such ... )

What I'm trying to say is this: If GT5 isn't a REVOLUTION concerning mostly two factors (AI and physics), and if they're still putting all their effort in the graphics, I bet both konami (in the PS3) and Microsoft (in the Xbox) have their major oportunity.

PS - Considering the dissapointing lack of news about a possible Enthusia 2 (wishfull thinking: maybe konami wants to keep it secret for now), the "game" now seems to be just between PD and MS.

 

[Greycap]

People are beginning to see only the bad sides of Gran Turismo nowadays and the good sides of Forza are slowly creeping out from under the rocks. What is forgotten is that most of these people are actually comparing GT4 (a game of the past generation) to Forza 2 that is a game of the current one. Even the power of the consoles used to run them is tenfold so the comparison isn't necessarily the fairest one out there, about as fair as to compare a Pentium III to an Athlon X2 (yep, I'm a computer guy by profession)... so let me make a comparison.

The most complained about thing in GT is the Artificial Idiotism as it should actually be called. Sure, I admit that it's bad, but while looking at the great graphics of the game the complainers forget that all this needs computing power to create and the old PS2 is already struggling to produce the visuals. Maybe it's not bad AI programming, maybe it's the cold fact that the machine can't run the more complex behaviour figures? We're talking about a six-year-old piece of hardware here, ancient by every imaginable way of measuring.

The most complained about thing #2 is the car selection. There is a hell of a moaning about the 50+ Skylines, but some of us like them and want to find every single difference between them. That's where the "real driving simulator" thing raises its head again, this game is about driving cars and seeing the personalities inside them. I bet most of you don't see any difference between an R32 N1 and an R32 V-SpecII but I can assure you there are people who do, and they see it clearly. Forza on the other hand gives us a selection of cars that ranges from the bottom to the top, but with a lot less variety on the way. I think it's nice to be able to select a vehicle from many with pretty similar specs rather than be faced with only three or four choices inside a certain class.

And there is complaining about the car physics in GT4. Now I'd be happy if someone told me how a game that actually transmits some kind of a feel about the weight of the car can be so bad, whereas the competitor makes the cars feel like hovercrafts that have glue in their tyres to ensure staying on the ground? From the experience I've gathered, GT4 is a lot closer to a real car than Forza.

Then the new wheels and the fears of Force Feedback disappearing from the GT series.

Microsoft has produced a wireless wheel? Good for you if you want less wires and more transmitter trouble as I've yet to see a wireless machine that doesn't have any connection troubles. And the "wirelessness" is thrown out of the window as soon as you want FF as it necessitates the use of the power supply cord. Does this magnificent new wheel have a realistic lock to lock turning? Nope, less than 360°, which is clearly a thing of the past. The wheel is made of plastic and rubber, while the competitor...

...is the Logitech G25, a high-quality wheel constructed of metal and leather. 900 degrees of lock, a H-pattern shifter and a clutch pedal are all features you're not going to find in the MS product. It has a cord, but does it really matter unless you are going to run around the house with the wheel? this wheel was partly made for GT5 and they may even be coming up with a more refined design as we get there. It has force feedback and I don't think it is there for nothing.

And the answer to the question. No, it's not losing, it's a game for a car collector, something that Forza can never be unless they begin copying the idea directly.

- R -

 

[Wolfe]

...And there is complaining about the car physics in GT4. Now I'd be happy if someone told me how a game that actually transmits some kind of a feel about the weight of the car can be so bad, whereas the competitor makes the cars feel like hovercrafts that have glue in their tyres to ensure staying on the ground? From the experience I've gathered, GT4 is a lot closer to a real car than Forza...

This man speaks the truth, people.

I mean, it's well-known that I hate GT4's physics with a fiery passion, but Forza takes disappointment and failed promises to a whole new low on that front.

 

[Kent]

+rep to greycap. 👍
"Truth all the way" is exactly what I thought and that means I certainly agree with Wolfe.

To address the subject of the thread again though... I don't think GT will lose the battle to Forza. I do, however, feel that Forza will be a good substitute for X360 players who can't get GT on their box.

 

[newbielives]

I thought it was an easy choice going with GT5 but now that there is talk that GT5 may not support Force Feedback, I'm not too sure anymore.

 

[ChadSpeed]

I am one of the millions to not get a PS3. Now hearing about GTHD from all of you I see that besides amazing graphics i'm not really missing anything. I truly hope PD steps it up bigtime for GT5. I would love to see a tire physics overhaul. I like to use Road tires in GT4, but while I think the side to side grip is realistic, the straightline is way off, you can't even achieve real 0 to 60 times with sport tires equiped especially in a FF car. I would also like to see more everyday car that are from other countries besides Japan. Like theCamry(268hp), Maxima(265hp), while they are Japanese companies they are only sold here I think. Also I would love to see the sportiest versions of cars like the MazdaSpeed Protege, instead of the regular base model. A Dodge Ram SRT10, instead of a 4wd Lux truck. More intuitive menus were you aren't required to change your setting every time you play to HD. These are just some of the things that have gotten really irritating in GT4 and after playing all of them its time for a change. I'm sure every one has problems with the series, but I just am sick of PD not improving much from game to game, pretty graphics are just not enough anymore. I lovfe the GT series and will probably always play them but I would love to be truly impressed by PD once again, like I was with GT3.

As far a Forza is concerned I have completly different issues with it. I liked the physics, but it didn't look as good as GT. I hope FM2 is a big leap ahead of FM1. And hope PD also has a big leap ahead of GT4 with GT5. It just seems like teh Forza team knows what I want and don't want. They know I want a Lingefelter Corvette instead of a 15hp Citroen. They know I like to piddle around with drag races, so I can throw on wide slicks and set up the suspesion to perform weel at the strip. They know I don't like not being able to reproduce real world 0to60 and 1/4 mile times. They also know I like to make my car look like I want it too with parts that are for it specificaly, not a generic set of wings that look terrible on most cars. They also know I like cars to be divided into classes so we can race competitively. They know I don't like picking a Muscle car and being pitted against NSX's, and Skylines. I geuss Forza had more of the things I liked in a racing game than GT has ever had, but I have played GT4 longer than Forza because GT is so pretty, and is nice looking even when switching between 360 and PS2. I voted for it will be a good battle because I am not a fanboy, and see all the phaults with both games, for me personnaly GT just had more irritating ones than Forza.

And the answer to the question. No, it's not losing, it's a game for a car collector, something that Forza can never be unless they begin copying the idea directly.

- R -

I agree about that, Forza has no comparision in this department. But as a whole I think the battle will be much closer. For me it was kinda wierd at first playing Forza after years of GT. I hated the physics at first, but liked the car selection, sounds, and the customization. I only played Forza a month before going back to GT4, but eventually I got tired of the same old same old in GT4, and went back to Forza and stayed on it for a good year, racing online and off, spending hours painting cars, tweaking them to the top of each class, and making fun drift and burnout replays(even though the replay camera was terrible). And I expect the GT5 and Forza 2 battle to be evn more heated for players such as myself who love both games. Sounds like FM2 will have a lot of non racing stuff to do, like tuning cars online for other players, painting and customizing online for other players, and even just talking cars online. I know the PD team may not be big on online( Japanese in general don't care for it much) but they can really make the GT series much more fun by letting us race each other. I hope that GT5 also has some sort of class breakdown. FM2 has to improve on its classes also as there were always cars that were better than any other in the classes, which lead to them being banned by hosts in online races. Also FM2 will have to do something to hold it players in it for as long as GT can, maybe all the online extras could do that. But I played GT3 everyday until GT4 came out, with no online, and terrible A.I. Mostly just made up my own class by power to wieght ratio and did timetrials on all the tracks for them, lame but I loved it. Boring now though and could'nt make GT4 any longer by doing that. I'm just curious but have you actually owned Forza or just tried it out at best buy? They are both good games, I think overall GT4 was better, but I think GT5 and FM2 will be a much closer battle for me at least....I hope.

 

[LGforce]

And the answer to the question. No, it's not losing, it's a game for a car collector, something that Forza can never be unless they begin copying the idea directly.

like me 👍

 

[SkylineObsession]

I like both series equally as each have good and bad points (some listed below).

Forza Motorsport
+ Can do decent burnouts/donuts
+ Can easily drift cars (bit too easy but hey)
+ Can modify the looks and performance of the majority of cars
+ Looks great
+ Has cars which Gran Turismo should have had too...
- Doesn't have very many cars
- Handling is a little dodgy at speed
- Decals can be a little hard to match up if, say, you want them to go from the side of the car onto the bonnet/bumpers
- Not a huge wheel selection
- Doesn't seem to be a whole lot of difference in handling between road cars and race cars

Gran Turismo 4
+ Insane amount of cars
+ Photo mode
+ Extremely accurate tracks
+ Lots of varied races to do
+ Cars handle better at speed than they do in Forza
- No paint shop
- Low speed physics are bad
- Car sounds are very hit and miss (which i hope are just because they have been 'detuned' for PS2)
- No body modifications
- Only six cars on the track

I love both games though, mostly lean towards Forza if i want to modify the appearance of a car and go drifting or lean towards Gran Turismo if i want to try out different cars and have compeditive races.

I also believe that those who restrict themselves to just one brand are silly and are missing out on a lot of fun. There is no reason in the world that both series' of games cannont co-exist.

 

[chau_alain]

I say its going to be a good battle...

For me I havn't played much of FM but from my friends they are much into FM just becuase of online play...They would tell me all the time to get it becuase you could be XBox Live chatting and playing at the same time. I Did give FM a few trys while at my friend house, and it isn't a bad game at all. I would say it is another simulator racing game and its has Good and Bad jsut like GT4 and other GT series.

Having playing both... I still like the GT Series, we all know the physic arn't too good but I mean I think its better than FM, while playing FM it just seem like i'm breaking before a corner and just turning with any type of car. Where in GT4 I would actually feel how some cars have oversteer and some have understeer.

There are so many comparison that could be made about GT vs. FM, I think its just up the player, you will play what you like.

Greycap

There is a hell of a moaning about the 50+ Skylines, but some of us like them and want to find every single difference between them. That's where the "real driving simulator" thing raises its head again, this game is about driving cars and seeing the personalities inside them. I bet most of you don't see any difference between an R32 N1 and an R32 V-SpecII but I can assure you there are people who do, and they see it clearly.

I totally agree with you on this, this is one of the things I really like about GT4 sometime I would just tune one of the many cars that they are and race in the same make races to see how they perform just becuase I want to see how well they do especally the one make skyline race =]

 

[ChadSpeed]

Oh yes, your way right. I wish the fanboys of both series would just give each other a good try.

 

[FoolKiller]

I also believe that those who restrict themselves to just one brand are silly and are missing out on a lot of fun. There is no reason in the world that both series' of games cannont co-exist.

I have tried multiple brands and decided I prefered GT4. Forza is good in its own way, but the things I like best were in GT4.

Besides, I don't have the time to get indepth in two simulation racers. I probably already spend too much time with GT4 by itself. I have rented Le Mans 24 Hours over the holidays and that arcade game alone took up a lot of time that I didn't expect it to hook me in on. If I had a second simulation game I would be in big trouble.

That is purely the only reason I didn't buy Forza after deciding my preference was for GT4. I played it long enough to adjust to the different physics (which just seem unnatural to me) and enjoyed it, but it would have taken up too much time. I play it when it is available to play at a friend's house or when Microsoft had their gaming tent at the state fair, but if I bought it it would have been a waste as I wouldn't have given it the attention it needed for me to get the full experience.

I also tried Enthusia but just didn't enjoy it. It was promising but needed work.

 

[SkylineObsession]

I'm yet to try Enthusia and not sure if i will yet.

 

[red70mach1]

i LIKE GT because Forza accuracy issue on certain racetracks. Laguna Seca looked narrower on Forza as opposed to GT.

 

[V1P3R]

I'm heading to the other side (Forza/Forza 2), it's gonna be in the PS3/GT5's court and so far it's not looking good.

 

[Kent]

i LIKE GT because Forza accuracy issue on certain racetracks. Laguna Seca looked narrower on Forza as opposed to GT.

While I can not comment on Laguna (as I am not too well versed in the Forza version), I can comment on the Nurburgring...

Forza's Ring is horrible.
The Ring is so bad on Forza that I have doubts about the team even visiting the track none the less driving it. I am almost certain they merely watched the videos I've watched (and probably not as many!).

If Forza repeats the Ring mistake I have no doubts that GT will be the best console racer.
With each having something to counter-act the other's good points I just don't see Forza coming up with a fix for the tracks (other than getting the real world track right!).

 

[AUFordFalconFPR]

i play Gran turismo 3 more than i play my copy of Forza. Great Games but for me

GT >>>> Forza

 

[ChadSpeed]

While I can not comment on Laguna (as I am not too well versed in the Forza version), I can comment on the Nurburgring...

Forza's Ring is horrible.
The Ring is so bad on Forza that I have doubts about the team even visiting the track none the less driving it. I am almost certain they merely watched the videos I've watched (and probably not as many!).

If Forza repeats the Ring mistake I have no doubts that GT will be the best console racer.
With each having something to counter-act the other's good points I just don't see Forza coming up with a fix for the tracks (other than getting the real world track right!).

They made the ring like that to support online play. I hated it at first because some turns were not as sharp as GT4s version, and the whole track just looked way to wide. PGR3 got the exact same version as Forza. I hope that in FM2 they have an online and offline version to deal with this, because GT4 is the only game that captures the ring almost perfectly. It not as much of challenge in PGR3 of Fm1. But yea Turn 10 does their homework and they do it well, just go check out my last post over in improved engine sound. I think they just did the crap version of the ring for online, as GT4s would be hell with so many other cars, but it would also be realistic.

 

[panjandrum]

This might turn out to be less a contest between GT5 and Forza 2 as it is a contest between XBox 360 and Playstation 3. The more I read, the more I hear, the less I want a PS3 as my next-gen system. The whole blu-ray thing has just hit a dead end with a new development (see http://www.cdrlabs.com/news/byte/4631 ) that will, with almost complete certainty, send blu-ray the way of the betamax.

So, with those issues in mind, it looks to me like Forza 2 will probably be the way to go. I still have a wait and see attitude, because if Forza 2 is crap compared to GT5 it might change my mind. If I do go Forza, I'll be sure and post my G25 and DFP for sale on these boards!

 

[Kent]

They made the ring like that to support online play. I hated it at first because some turns were not as sharp as GT4s version, and the whole track just looked way to wide. PGR3 got the exact same version as Forza. I hope that in FM2 they have an online and offline version to deal with this, because GT4 is the only game that captures the ring almost perfectly. It not as much of challenge in PGR3 of Fm1. But yea Turn 10 does their homework and they do it well, just go check out my last post over in improved engine sound. I think they just did the crap version of the ring for online, as GT4s would be hell with so many other cars, but it would also be realistic.

I doubt they would purposefully ruin the Ring for the sake of online. Chances are that GT5 will have online at the same Ring from GT4.

With that in mind, I think they did the Ring poorly because the makers of the game didn't really care enough to put in the time, effort, and money to properly research and replicate the Ring.

When you beat the world championship in GT4 you are treated to a real world video of a 350Z running the Ring... PD's main man was driving that car- I doubt anyone from Forza's team ran the Ring. 👎

Fact is, I don't think the people from Forza even watched as many on-board videos of the Ring as I have, none the less, actually visit the Ring.

Bottom line for me:
The Nurburgring is a perfect example of the differences between Forza and GT.

 

[ChadSpeed]

Yea the more I think about it your right. And the difference in the " Rings " is a perfect illustration of the different games. I recently started Fm1 again and it way different than GT4 in almost every way. Dosn't feel as classy and elegant as GT4 can be. I also noticed the tracks like Laguna Seca, and Tsukuba that they seem to be different from GTs as well. I love watching videos from the ring, and if it wasn't for GT I would not know of so many tracks. I noticed Cote'D Azur the other day on some racing movie on Speed. the movie was from the 60s I think and I could still tell. Now with GT5 I think Kaz will be able to put much more into it than they could with GT4, they have already done so much work waiting for the PS3 that it should be wonderful. As for FM2 I have been on thier site reading Turn10s weekly updates and gaining some nice perspective as to how they are coming along. In the end I hope they both come closer to each other, and to being a really fun simulator.

 

[FoolKiller]

In the end I hope they both come closer to each other, and to being a really fun simulator.

Best case scenario right there. 👍 They both turn out to be too good to choose between.

 

[ChadSpeed]

My point exactly, we all win, and get what we want.

 

[Kent]

In the end I hope they both come closer to each other, and to being a really fun simulator.

Close but not exactly, I'd hate to see them meet in the middle... I'd rather Forza just steps it up to match PD's product (assuming GT5 is an improvement in atleast some kind of way).
Might take a little extra work for the guys at Forza but I am sure it would pay off for them.

The way I see it, Forza isn't competition for GT since they don't run on the same system. Simple as that.

Here's the thing, if Forza doesn't step up the quality, better racing games for the 360 will come along.
GT on the other hand... It's gonna take something special to unseat them with the Sony crowd. Of course, I didn't mention the obvious (but)... If someone's lucky enough to have both systems they're probably wealthy enough to cover the cost of both games.

Bottom line for me (once agian)
The differences between tracks in GT4 and Forza1 leave primarily playing GT4. In the next gen, we will not even compare Forza and GT (more than likely).

Something tells me a certain PC game is going to own the Xbox360 market (assuming that certain game comes to the 360).

 

[Dave A]

It really depends what you count as meeting in the middle, physics wise both need to improve, okay GT's are better than Forza's overall, but they both need to improve so let's say they both do, to a similar level, but then GT5 includes body modifications and a paint shop. Technically that's meeting in the middle, Forza has moved the physics forwards more so that it can meet with GT and GT have moved the customisation to meet with Forza that's 1 all right there. That wouldn't be a bad thing imo. But physics wise I'd like both to improve. GT4's is better but GT4's does not satisfy me, I just don't get the enjoyment from it that I get out of other sims. I'd like to, and every now and then I try to, I love so many of the cars in GT4. But I just can't get the level of enjoyment from the game to keep me hooked. The same can be said for Forza, at least if it wasn't fo the paintshp, the physics don't hook me, but I'll happily boot it up and spend half an hour or so painting a race modded 350Z.

 

[sbursi]

Something tells me a certain PC game is going to own the Xbox360 market (assuming that certain game comes to the 360).

I'm assuming that means GTR (a series which both-Forza and GT-could do well to borrow traits from)


geez I wish my PC met the requirements for GTR- I can barely even run Grand Prix Legends (released 1998)

 

[KSaiyu]

Something tells me a certain PC game is going to own the Xbox360 market (assuming that certain game comes to the 360).

That's definetly my highlight at least for this first half of the year, although unfortunately I don't think the xbox market will ultimately appreciate it. I'm looking forward to Forza 2, especially with the FF wheel, but it will have to (like GT5 will) deliver on it's promise of better physics. I would have thought by now we can expect competent physics in console driving games, and if GTR proves this is the case then there should be no excuse for Turn 10 or PD.

 

[killer1022]

I think Forza is way more enjoyable than GT4. You have online, you can modify your cars up the wazooo, and you could paint them, who doesnt like racing in a custom batman car.

Also, some of you guys are ragging on the physics of Forza, this is their first entry into the genre guys. I think it did a damn fine job for being their first game.

What set GT4 and Forza apart for me was the online play. Racing against other peoples custom cars, or selling ur car online, getting the best tuned car, or competing in clan races. These things were Awesome! Forza sparked the online racing community, there were tourneys all over the place. People made pace cars to watch the racers.

Im not saying GT4 sucked, cause it didnt by any means, i just enjoyed Forza way more. I have both the PS3 and 360 so i will enjoy both games. Right now, i really like GTHD, i think its the best game on the ps3, and its a demo lol. Unless Forza 2 messes up the gameplay, which I highly doubt, I will enjoy Forza 2 cause it will have a leg up on GT5's online play. Also, it comes out earlier

 

[FoolKiller]

who doesnt like racing in a custom batman car.

Superman? Seriously though, these are the personal preferences things. I personally wouldn't make these kinds of changes. I would rather have a stock Autobianchi to putt around in.

These are the small differences that make you prefer one over the other, but won't kill either.

Also, some of you guys are ragging on the physics of Forza, this is their first entry into the genre guys. I think it did a damn fine job for being their first game.

Thsi is teh only statement you made that I have an issue with. Being their first game doesn't suddenly make it better. You may excuse that it isn't better as a first shot, but in comparison it still isn't as good. Making excuses for it doesn't solve the issue. With luck it will be better in their second try.

What set GT4 and Forza apart for me was the online play. Racing against other peoples custom cars, or selling ur car online, getting the best tuned car, or competing in clan races. These things were Awesome! Forza sparked the online racing community, there were tourneys all over the place. People made pace cars to watch the racers.

Im not saying GT4 sucked, cause it didnt by any means, i just enjoyed Forza way more. I have both the PS3 and 360 so i will enjoy both games. Right now, i really like GTHD, i think its the best game on the ps3, and its a demo lol. Unless Forza 2 messes up the gameplay, which I highly doubt, I will enjoy Forza 2 cause it will have a leg up on GT5's online play. Also, it comes out earlier

I can agree with the rest of this, although I didn't have either system online, so it could be that I enjoyed GT4 more because these extra features were not something I could take advantage of in Forza. I doubt it would have made the difference though since I love tooling around in the wide variety of cars.

 

[Cobra_UK]

What set GT4 and FM apart for me was the online play. Racing against other peoples custom cars, or selling your car online, getting the best tuned car, or competing in clan races. These things were Awesome! FM sparked the online racing community, there were tourneys all over the place. People made pace cars to watch the racers.

Well if Sony/PD/KY want to succeed they need to realise that online is extremely important. If a solid online, free, feature is established for PS3/GT5, Sony could compete with MS/XBOX360. There are still boring single players out there but the buzz word of the last 5 years is online multiplayer. There is no better opponent/team member than another human.

I do believe that at the moment in stages of development and established customer base the XBOX360 is on top but Sony's PS3 is just revving up. FM2 is closer to release than GT5 and also has guaranteed online, damage, 60FPS and next-gen graphics (physics/AI and sound I'm also very confident will excel). But if support for the DF and DFP with FF gets sorted and KY's promises are to be believed (tough call there, my PD/KY bulls***-o-meter is at it peak and has been for some time), GT5 could come back with a vengeance in a few years.

If I was honest, I would have to say I believe FM2 will take GT's crown. But what I want is KY's vision and promises to come good and a GT5 so good it'll redefine the driving games genre.👍