Do you think that GT is losing the battle against Forza?

[SimRaceDriver]

...If importing US stations for personal use was allowed, I'd do that.. but Sony's been desperate to assure that Europeans HAVE to pay twice as much, wait longer for each game and not get 70% of the titles at all (which is the case)...."

Actually, I would say that EUROPEANS get more games then those of us here in the STATES...then again, this is just my own assumption, as I've seen a LOT of racing games over the years that were JUST for PAL...and unless I wanted to go out of my way to hack my PS2 and then pay for additional shipping charges, those games were out of my reach!

Example: Only the 1st WRC game came over here...the other few incarnations never materialized for one reason or another...regardless if they were crappy or not.

But as I said, this is my opinion and I've never done any type of extensive research to see which region (NTSC/PAL) actually does get more games then the other.

And as for Forza...I probably would have gone out and purchased a 360 w/Forza, but I'm a stickler for using a wheel in driving/racing games and because from what I've read and/or heard since the 360 was released, was that for one reason or another, FFB was never going to be incorporated and for me, on a console, FFB is MANDATORY!

Thus, why waste a few hundred $$ on a console/sim-racing game, when I wouldn't be able to FULLY appreciate it! That's why I've stayed w/GT4, as well as all the different TOCA games....Heck! I've even purchased a few NASCAR titles and I'm NOT even really a fan that much of NASCAR to begin with. Go figure! ;-)


SRD

 

[Ske]

from what I've read and/or heard since the 360 was released, was that for one reason or another, FFB was never going to be incorporated and for me, on a console, FFB is MANDATORY!

Actually, the MS wheel has proper Force Feedback AND vibration (means that it can do both at the same time yadi yada, great in theory). The "handling" is great, the problem is build quality... it's flimsy, a lot of wheels don't align properly, and the AC input has a tendency to fry due to residue on the circuit board.

As far as NTSC only games, most Japanese games (and they make the best games, too) make the US translation, but developers don't seem to bother converting them to PAL. Not a big deal really, since I'll probably only play GT and FF anyway... The big one is that most japanese games take AGES to get converted to PAL, usually 6-12 months from US to EU release.

 

[toyota_gt1]

gran turismo is better plain and simple.

 

[Biggles]

EU PS3s are currently over $1000 with no reduction plans

Is it really that much everywhere in Europe? We're used to paying more in Canada than the US price, but not that much more!

GT4 wins on variety, hardware and stability

My thoughts exactly: after playing Forza 1 a lot, I was very disappointed that there were so few new tracks in Forza 2, unconvinced by the M$ wheel, & concerned about the terrible failure rate of the 360.

GT5 will crush Forza though...

In spite of all the shortcomings of GT4, I have a strong feeling that this will be true, & that made me decide to shell out the $129 for a PS2 & GT4, $239 for a G25 & wait for the arrival of GT5.

I've enjoyed driving around in GT4, particularly the delicious Ring, but the appalling AI!!!

 

[Ske]

Is it really that much everywhere in Europe? We're used to paying more in Canada than the US price, but not that much more!

Yes, it's not local taxes or anything, just Sony's policy that keeps us from paying the same as you. Which, to be frank, is pissing me off.

 

[Quiet_Storm]

^^^Hi Frank! *wave*

 

[Mekanaizer]

-> As I've heard around GTP, I saw a LOT of disgrunted GT gamers over all these delays, false promises, and with the worth a while game GTHD canned. Is Forza getting the upper hand here? Turn 10 the developer of the Forza series has been very aggresive with thier media contents with a lot less hype. While Polyphony Digital with all the hype from E3 and TGS with thier GTHD, ends up empty.

-> As far as I saw some screenshots regarding Forza 1 & 2, I think they're doing the job really well with not much delay:


^ After I saw these screenshots, the more I get convinced that PD is losing on this one. After I went ga-ga with some pics, videos regarding GTHD (back then), I think despite with the HD handicap up to 720p compared to the full blown 1080p, I think that Forza is on par graphically compared to GT. Plus with damage, online support, physics, not to mention Lamborghini and some juicier Ferrari's that everybody here in GTP keeps on demanding with no result due to all the false promises.

-> What do you think guys? (:

That ALL Ferrari's will be over GT5.

 

[TopHat]

That post was made over 6 months ago.


I'm still convinced that half the people who play FM2 are only doing so till GT5 comes out. Me included.

 

[Badsight]

bla bla bla

nope , GT4 isnt perfect - sevearly constrained by the POS2 hardware

but Polyphony did a fantastic job of getting that many cars with that many tracks running smoothly (yes , smoothly) on the gutless wonder

no you dont need uber PC humbling power , but 266 mhz aint enough - especially combined with such a puny amount of RAM

Polyphony know how to optimise sony architecture & GT5 is going to be awesome

 

[Wolfe]

bla bla bla

Excellent display of tact...

nope , GT4 isnt perfect - sevearly constrained by the POS2 hardware

But that's the point -- if Polyphony Digital had done a good job of optimizing the game, GT4 wouldn't have been constrained and limited. It would have utilized the PS2 hardware to deliver a fully-fleshed-out, uncompromised gaming experience -- even if that meant leaving the graphics at GT3 caliber.

but Polyphony did a fantastic job of getting that many cars with that many tracks running smoothly (yes , smoothly) on the gutless wonder

As I tried to explain before, the total number of cars and tracks only has to do with disc storage size, not processing power.

no you dont need uber PC humbling power , but 266 mhz aint enough - especially combined with such a puny amount of RAM

I'm not going to bug you for using "ain't," but unless I'm mistaken, that's a present-tense word. This is 2007. The PS2 hit stores in 2000. Of course 266MHz isn't enough today, but it was plenty back then, especially for a console (for the reasons I noted above). And again, more power would have resulted in a higher price.

Sorry, but you can't blame the system hardware for Polyphony Digital's lack of foresight. They knew GT4 would be a PS2 game. They knew what the PS2 was capable of. They shouldn't have had to scale back, cut, or downgrade anything.

 

[MasterGT]

Sorry, but you can't blame the system hardware for Polyphony Digital's lack of foresight. They knew GT4 would be a PS2 game.

I'm not so sure about that. My gut feeling is that Kaz was waiting for new hardware and that's why SONY had to push him to release a second PS2 version, with the end result being GT4 seems a bit shoddy in its quality and completeness.

If this is not the case, then why one earth would PD spend so much time photographing and sound recording all of those cars when they knew the PS2 could not use the quality of all of that data? For Photo Mode? Give me a break! It's not that good. GIGO? Not a good enough reason either, no matter how "good" PD is. The only reason a company would expend those kinds of resources over that length of time would be if they intended to actually use them on new hardware and get a ROI from them. Kaz would have known about the PS3 design and its capabilities, so maybe some of that went to his head. The PS3 was late, then PD had to rush another incomplete and unfinished PS2 version out the door, to appease the company and us.

I may be wrong on some or all of this, but all of the circumstantial evidence led me towards this conclusion. So did we end up with our GT4 because of lack of foresight or because of a poor business plan or a bit of both?

Cheers,

MasterGT

 

[Badsight]

Sorry, but you can't blame the system hardware for Polyphony Digital's lack of foresight. They knew GT4 would be a PS2 game. They knew what the PS2 was capable of. They shouldn't have had to scale back, cut, or downgrade anything.

well , "you is wrong" , & besides that - GT4 is an optimised game for the POS2

it delivers all it can considering what its running

Ai doesnt come cheap reguarding CPU time , neither do 3d models or reasonble textures - your critisim of GT4 is unwarranted

RBR runs like crap on the POS2 , & Toca 3 doesnt compete for environment detail or texture res - both are better in GT4

for sure GT5 is going to be as complete as GT4 is , we didnt wait an extra year for GT4 for nothing , & its the same deal going on with GT5 now

how bad is it when yourr main competition is already on store shelves! - if they were out to screw the customer GT5 would have launched 2 months ago

 

[Wolfe]

I'm not so sure about that...

*snip*

...So did we end up with our GT4 because of lack of foresight or because of a poor business plan or a bit of both?

Cheers,

MasterGT

You bring up a good point. I have a feeling it may have been a bit of both.

...Toca 3 doesnt compete for environment detail or texture res - both are better in GT4

Okay. Do you want somewhat prettier backgrounds, or better A.I. and physics?

for sure GT5 is going to be as complete as GT4 is

Oh god I hope not. I'd feel sorry for everyone who bought a PS3 in anticipation of GT5, only to receive a half-baked mess.

 

[Scaff]

well , "you is wrong" , & besides that - GT4 is an optimised game for the POS2

it delivers all it can considering what its running

Ai doesnt come cheap reguarding CPU time , neither do 3d models or reasonble textures - your critisim of GT4 is unwarranted

RBR runs like crap on the POS2 , & Toca 3 doesnt compete for environment detail or texture res - both are better in GT4

for sure GT5 is going to be as complete as GT4 is , we didnt wait an extra year for GT4 for nothing , & its the same deal going on with GT5 now

how bad is it when yourr main competition is already on store shelves! - if they were out to screw the customer GT5 would have launched 2 months ago

The highlighted bit is what I want to ask about. Can you please qualify this, as RBR does not run like crap on the PS2 (and POS2 is not required and sooner or later going to start a nice little flame-war so please stop).

Many would argue (and I include myself in that group) that, aside from the limited scope of the rally environment, RBR offered one of the best physics models on the PS2 and certainly the most in-depth and complete set-up and tuning models for the platform.

You bring up a good point. I have a feeling it may have been a bit of both.

True, but you would be hard pushed to find a game that has not been compromised in one way or another. EPR is massively compromised in its layout and menu structure (something that I feel could well have put off many who bought it), not to mention its appalling tuning. FM2 dropped it for me by removing the point-to-points (or will people get them back just as a chargeable add-on) and a game that some are saying pushes the 360 too far.

All the above could be attributed to a lack of fore-sight, poor business plan or both. However in business hind-sight is a wonderful stick to hit people with.

Okay. Do you want somewhat prettier backgrounds, or better A.I. and physics?

The problem here is that PD had already set the minimum standard as far as the visuals went with GT3, any scale back on that front would have been commercial suicide and as far as a poor business plan from above goes you can't get much worse than that.

Now you know that I am more than happy to admit that GT4 was not perfect in the physics area (and the AI needs no discussion on that front), but commercial realities do need to be kept in place here.

Visually RBR is very, very good, but it only has to deal with one car at a time, TRD3 has always favoured lower visuals for big grids, damage and a descent AI (the physics are however strictly simcade).

Did PD push the PS2 a bit to far? Possibly, but I for one am glad they at least tried.

Oh god I hope not. I'd feel sorry for everyone who bought a PS3 in anticipation of GT5, only to receive a half-baked mess.

A bit of bias here maybe, LOL.

GT:HD has already shown that the physics engine has been moving in the correct direction and the latest videos shown also clearly show a much better interpretation of weight transfer and how a car moves, so the signs are good.

I do have to ask if you are going to continue to dismiss the chance that PD can step back up with GT5, after all the track record so far is good. For the time they were released GT, GT2 and GT3 all set the standard that other reached for (in all areas - apart from damage). That GT4 dropped the ball in some of these areas does not, in my opinion, warrant dismissing any chance of a return to form.

It does however, seem that you have almost made up your mind already, which is a little disappointing.

From my point of view my PS3 has been more than worth the price for what I have so far, so while GT5 being great would be a massive bonus, its would certainly not be a total loss.


Regards

Scaff

 

[Biggles]

I really think it's very unlikely that PD would put out a "half-baked mess". GT4 definitely has its weaknesses, the most aggregious of which is the AI, but I believe that what PD did given the limitations of the PS2 made sense, even if it did not satisfy everyone.

I just gave EPR another run last night & I have to say that the poor graphics, confusing displays & menus, & illogical game structure completely bury the fact that the physics are pretty good. I think that, in the end, graphics are actually a part of physics/gameplay because they represent the "interface" between the driver & the environment. This has obviously been PD's strength & where they focussed their energies with GT4. My hope is, that given the vastly greater processing power of the PS3 they are going to be able to do major work improving the very significant weaknesses of GT4 while still upping the ante on the graphics (which we have already seen in the GT5P trailers).

 

[JohnBM01]

Time for me to defend Enthusia. You know you're not going to make Wolfe very happy in describing Enthusia the way you did, biggles. Enthusia was horrible to many people. Hardened veterans of racing games will know that Enthusia is severely underrated. Maybe it's the street course driver in me, but I still enjoy racing the streets of San Francisco in Enthusia as Pacific Gateway. I actually grown fond of off-road (and even on-road) rallying in Enthusia than GT4. People complained that driving in Enthusia is like driving on ice. Of course, unlock Wintertraum, THEN try to complain what driving on ice is like. I think Polyphony Digital took some cues from Enthusia in regards to the lighting model. Ever noticed the glare on surfaces in GTHD and in the GT5 Prologue pictures? The sun's pounding of the surfaces looks amazing. It's a lot like in Enthusia. Race Dragon Range or Marco Strada (night course) to appreciate the lighting effects. The lighting, especially at night at Marco Strada in the rain, is absolutely beautiful.

I've been doing a little more thinking on GT vs. Forza. I never want to look at this as GT passing the torch to Forza as the best racing game of the modern era. I was impressed with what Forza had to offer the more I got into playing Forza at kiosks. I have to say that the race car handling is amazing. Last night on G4TV, I saw "X-Play's" review of Forza Motorsport 2. It got a 5 out of 5 for being such a through and through racing game. And in true gaming media fashion, a cheap shot at Gran Turismo was made as Morgan Webb said (indirect quote), "and this game has realistic damage... unlike another franchise." Most people are going to rag on me just because I'm not taking Forza's side I said myself that Forza is an excellent series that established itself in... two years. I called it XBOX's Gran Turismo (in no disrespect). I want to host a discussion on GTPlanet in the future about it, but it seems like the key points relate to damage and some sort of multiplayer. GT4's value was diminished simply because people wanted online and online didn't pull through in the final build. You know I'm not an online gaming guy, so this didn't bother me one bit. But if racing games are coming down to damage, then it's a shame. People get on PD like they are too lazy to make damage for cars. Let me put this to perspective. The Ridge Racer series has been around for some 14 years. Not ONE [traditional] Ridge Racer game with damage. Did Ridge Racer still remain a fun racing game series? Of course. Concentrate on the notion of damage, and you're just taking away from racing. What I mean is that you should try to focus more on racing and not wrecking cars. And if the auto companies in question as well as racing constructors don't want to see their cars damaged in any such way no matter how hard PD tries, then what's the point of ragging on PD and GT for something they have no control over? It's a racing game, not a wrecking game. Go play Burnout if damage is that important to you. How Forza's been able to get the damage and such is their business and not PD's. PD is at least trying.

People will still make things in the context of "GT is better than Forza" or "Forza is better than GT." I guess people over time still consider GT as one of the best gaming franchises of the modern era. Depending upon who you ask, some others have their own views. One would say that GT is a good franchise, but has yet to prove its full potential. Another would say that Gran Turismo can be much better than what's being released in stores. Then, some just think that Gran Turismo is for babies while real racing can be found with stuff like Forza and GTR. People will make these corrleations because they are the gaming media. They want absolutes rather than the best on a certain console or of a certain genre. I still pick GT because it's the game I'm most accustomed to and the one I like most. It's personal preference for me. No disrespect to Forza. Even with all the cheap shots people take at Gran Turismo, it's still my favorite racing game series whether people like it or not. My own personal feelings are much different from most of America and the rest of the world. Just in my humble opinion, Gran Turismo can only go in one direction- up. It's more about retaining the crown for best racing game rather than a continuous rivalry between GT and Forza. In GT's mind, Forza's just an upstart thinking upset over GT. In Forza's mind, it's a sim racing game everyone can be proud of. Especially those who think PD doesn't listen or read people's comments. Whichever is better is your call. Celebrate your choice of which game is better. Just don't put it as being less of a great series than Burnout or "Need for Speed" since "NFS: Underground." Racers have to grow up some time.

 

[Biggles]

Forget the online component: GT4 is inferior (to Forza 1, never mind 2) as a single-player racing game because of the horrible AI.

 

[Wolfe]

True, but you would be hard pushed to find a game that has not been compromised in one way or another. EPR is massively compromised in its layout and menu structure (something that I feel could well have put off many who bought it), not to mention its appalling tuning.

Agreed, but these are not hardware limitations, and the game didn't break any promises. It just didn't offer a good menu or tuning system to begin with.

Did PD push the PS2 a bit to far? Possibly, but I for one am glad they at least tried.

I'm not so much bothered by the series-consistent limitations (eg. the six-car grid) as I am the "new" limitations. The development time wasted on pushing too hard, then scaling back, then bug-testing after the scaling back, could have been used to improve the physics engine, which as you're well aware I think could have used all the help it could get.

I do have to ask if you are going to continue to dismiss the chance that PD can step back up with GT5, after all the track record so far is good. For the time they were released GT, GT2 and GT3 all set the standard that other reached for (in all areas - apart from damage). That GT4 dropped the ball in some of these areas does not, in my opinion, warrant dismissing any chance of a return to form.

It does however, seem that you have almost made up your mind already, which is a little disappointing.

Not at all. I really do hope GT5 demonstrates, as you said, a return to form. I'm just exercising a bit of trepidation, not unlike the old saying that our president screwed up -- "Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me."

Just to make sure we're on the same page here, I was merely responding to the fact that Badsight assured me that GT5 will be "just as complete as GT4 is." Considering my opinion of GT4, that's rather amusing.

You know you're not going to make Wolfe very happy in describing Enthusia the way you did, biggles.

Don't worry, John, I don't take things on the internet that personally.

I really think it's very unlikely that PD would put out a "half-baked mess". GT4 definitely has its weaknesses, the most aggregious of which is the AI, but I believe that what PD did given the limitations of the PS2 made sense, even if it did not satisfy everyone.

Differences of opinion. I definitely think GT4 was a half-baked mess.

I just gave EPR another run last night & I have to say that the poor graphics, confusing displays & menus, & illogical game structure completely bury the fact that the physics are pretty good.

I think the graphics are quite good, actually. As John pointed out, it's got great special effects, better than GT4 in some areas.

Everything else you said is right, though.

 

[Dave A]

I don't think GT4 was half baked, but I could in many ways desribe it as a bit of a mess. I think they tried, and tried very hard, they just didn't pull it off. Imo the AI was a big problem, but the biggest problem for me was the physics. Now while I'm happy to agree that both GT4 and EPR are hpysics wise pretty close, I've always said that the flaws in GT4's physics stood out more to me than the flaws in EPR's.

Also GT4 lacked a lot of direction, and I found that there was a lot less fun in replaying the events than there was in past games, thanks to a combination of structure, AI and physics flaws.

Ofcourse, many argue that given the architecture GT4 was running on it couldn' be better, maybe so, but that doesn't make GT4 a better game than EPR imo.

 

[Biggles]

Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnBM01
You know you're not going to make Wolfe very happy in describing Enthusia the way you did, biggles.
Don't worry, John, I don't take things on the internet that personally.

I'd love to love EPR, but...

Differences of opinion. I definitely think GT4 was a half-baked mess.

I wouldn't call GT4 a half-baked mess because, whereas it's very disappointing in some respects, it's pretty consistent with what PD have been doing from the start. EPR on the other hand really could be fairly described as a half-baked mess, even though the physics are not bad.

I think the graphics are quite good, actually.

The Nurburgring looks like a set from The Hound of the Baskervilles.

I'm going to try & persevere with EPR, but jumping back into GT4 after an hour of EPR is like a breath of fresh air after being stuck in a claustrophic parallel driving universe.

Look, the AI in GT4 sucks, so the racing sucks, but I still say there's no more immersive or fun thing to do in video game driving than to take the RUF Yellowbird for a spin round the Ring with my G25 - it's just that I have to drive against another ghost car from my repetoire of Time Trials rather than against a real (virtual) opponent.

 

[Dave A]

The actual scenery and track layout in EPR is better than in GT4 imo, the track surface isn't as good but the layout is.

As for immersion, I've had thousands of more imemrsive moments than any moment I've had in GT4 in several other racing games. Ofcourse, that's just my experience, Wolfe's experience will be different to mine and your different to both of ours etc. My point is, you can't say something like "I still say there's no more immersive or fun thing to do" because that's just you, someone else might agree but a lot of people will have found thier best moments ielsewhere, maybe still in GT4, but elsewhere all the same.

The flaws in GT4's tyre physics (and yes I'm including the simulation tyres) just kill the games enjoyability for me. Theres no flow in the transitions between grip levels.

 

[Biggles]

My point is, you can't say something like "I still say there's no more immersive or fun thing to do" because that's just you, someone else might agree but a lot of people will have found thier best moments ielsewhere, maybe still in GT4, but elsewhere all the same.

Well obviously we're talking about IMO, I'm not speaking for everyone else...

 

[matherto]

Forza 2 looks bloody terrible, certainly rushed, and just barely next-gen

 

[ChadSpeed]

Forza 2 looks bloody terrible, certainly rushed, and just barely next-gen

I would have disagreed with you, until all this GT prologue info and screens came out, it shame Turn10 in the graphics department. Heres hoping it can at least be on the same level as them in sound, and online options/play.

 

[V1P3R]

It's sad that people actually rather have nice pretty graphics over decent physics... but eh... whatever.

 

[SavageEvil]

I would have disagreed with you, until all this GT prologue info and screens came out, it shame Turn10 in the graphics department. Heres hoping it can at least be on the same level as them in sound, and online options/play.

They better one up Forza 2 sounds, which were rather repetitive, a lot of the cars sound pretty much identical. 360 out of commission, MS sent the coffin a few weeks back.

Forza 2 right now has customization/tuning, physics(until we actually play) and AI over GT5/GT5 Prologue. Prologue burns them in sheer amount of detail visually, looks to egde them out in online presentation, the courses are insanely detailed and there is a heck of a lot of variety to choose from. The inclusion of weather sometime down the line can only add to it.

I know everyone is entitled to his/her opinion, but why is it the comparisons between GT series and any other game turns into heart wound defense if favorite game. I noticed that each game that is brought up has glaring faults, just like GT4, but the fact of the matter is only one game is actually in the same vein and GT: Forza. GTR, no idea what this game has in common with either of the afore mentioned aside that they all have four wheeled vehicles that drive on tracks. Enthusia is closer, but the core of that game is still different, rpg type game. GT4 faults; blatantly stupid AI, with moments of brilliance, handicapped physics( lame tire physics). Forza faults; blatantly agressive AI, too aggressive at times, not enough real world courses, weird physics at times. GT4's presentation is what keeps me coming back, the wide breadth of vehicles, the courses and it's quite aesthetically pleasing to view. Oh the FF steering wheel makes it even better.

 

[Wolfe]

I wouldn't call GT4 a half-baked mess because, whereas it's very disappointing in some respects, it's pretty consistent with what PD have been doing from the start. EPR on the other hand really could be fairly described as a half-baked mess, even though the physics are not bad.

You can chalk this up to fanboyism if you'd like, but I disagree. I don't think EPR is a half-baked mess because the development team consciously made some of the odd decisions we're talking about. For example, they wanted the tuning system to be simple and accessible to anyone, and they wanted an RPG-like levelling-up system and complicated set of statistics in Enthusia Life mode. And they accomplished exactly what they set out to do.

If you can think of the console driving sim market as a cake competition, GT4 is like a cake that an experienced baker screwed up on. EPR is like a pie -- still tasty, but not quite what most people wanted/expected.

I like pies.

The Nurburgring looks like a set from The Hound of the Baskervilles.

And it probably does on a cool, cloudy, early morning. I wouldn't know -- I was there on an afternoon that ranged from partly cloudy to a slight drizzle.

 

[Biggles]

why is it the comparisons between GT series and any other game turns into heart wound defense if favorite game

???

I have no axe to grind: none of these games is perfect - all have strengths & weaknesses. I'm just calling it as I see it. If Forza 2 had more tracks & Logitech support, I would be owning a 360. As it doesn't, I've thrown my hat into the PS3 ring & I'm waiting for GT5.

 

[Badsight]

Okay. Do you want somewhat prettier backgrounds, or better A.I. and physics?

what id prefer has nothing to do with the point i made

GT4 runs at a high quality - & it does it smoothly . something that RBR rally doesnt do on the PS2

sure it fudges with generic algorithms all over the place . doesnt alter the fact that Polyphony got a classy product running nearly bug free on Sonys architecture . GT5 will probablly be delayed to hell - & it will probablly be for good reason

who hasnt brought a game recently that wasnt rushed in some way or another ?!?

 

[Scaff]

Agreed, but these are not hardware limitations, and the game didn't break any promises. It just didn't offer a good menu or tuning system to begin with.

A little perspective on the whole breaking promises thing here, first off while GT4 did miss out some of the promised features, a lot of what people wanted in in was little more than the product of internet speculation and wishes (something that we here at GT Planet are masters at creating for the GT series). Take release dates as a classic example, how many people moaned about GT4 slipping from a release date, when the reality was that Sony and PD rarely actually issue fixed dates.

This was something that Enthusia didn't have to contend with, being a clean sheet attempt, lets be honest about it Enthusia didn't have anything close to the same level of speculation that an established series has. Imagine if Enthusia 2 was announced today, the level of speculation and discussion here (along with wish-lists, etc) would be far, far greater than existed for the original.

In regard to system limitations, well Enthusia ran into similar walls to GT4 (limit of cars on track, reduced number of cars on rally or wet tracks, etc), the difference is that Konami had room to scale back in areas that PD couldn't (due to the precedents set in GT3 graphics wise) to accommodate a more details physics model.

I would also disagree that Konami didn't hit everything promised, yes the list is smaller (again due to the lack of speculation), but I do remember the promise of a randomly generated desert course, and while I do like the course, randomly generated is a generous description at best (moving the course endge about a few meters is a more accurate one).

As for the argument that they deliberately wanted an RPG levelling system and easy tuning, well I acknowledge that in regard to the levelling side of things (doesn't mean it worked well). However the tuning side was a total and utter mess, claim it was simplified to make it more accessible if you want, but that doesn't meet Konami's own claim about it...

Changing your car's settings alone does not increase the car's ability. But the truth is that it does have an effect on your lap times. The car's characteristics can differ with even the slightest change in the springs and wheel alignment.
This means the grip of the tires will change. The most important point in changing your car's settings is how well you can work up the tires. The right settings should make your car faster.

..they talk of the cars characteristics differing with even the slightest change to the settings, yet the settings have no scale on them at all. Meaning that you have no idea at all of easily getting back to a setting if you change it and discussing set-up with other people is impossible. Sorry but Konami dropped a big one with tuning on Enthusia, regardless of what they intended to do.

I'm not so much bothered by the series-consistent limitations (eg. the six-car grid) as I am the "new" limitations. The development time wasted on pushing too hard, then scaling back, then bug-testing after the scaling back, could have been used to improve the physics engine, which as you're well aware I think could have used all the help it could get.

"Could have, should have , would have", as I say hindsight is a wonderful thing. I'm not excusing GT4 for some of its mistakes, but they are not as widespread as many would believe (nor as unrealistic in all areas as some would believe).

GT4 has a huge issue with very low speed physics, but the high-speed physics are a big more forward over the majority of console racers. I've mentioned it many times before, none are perfect.

Not at all. I really do hope GT5 demonstrates, as you said, a return to form. I'm just exercising a bit of trepidation, not unlike the old saying that our president screwed up -- "Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me."

A degree of trepidation needs to be applied to everything, however its then a thin line between that and bias.

Just to make sure we're on the same page here, I was merely responding to the fact that Badsight assured me that GT5 will be "just as complete as GT4 is." Considering my opinion of GT4, that's rather amusing.

Quite aware, not a problem at all.

what id prefer has nothing to do with the point i made

GT4 runs at a high quality - & it does it smoothly . something that RBR rally doesnt do on the PS2

sure it fudges with generic algorithms all over the place . doesnt alter the fact that Polyphony got a classy product running nearly bug free on Sonys architecture . GT5 will probablly be delayed to hell - & it will probablly be for good reason

who hasnt brought a game recently that wasnt rushed in some way or another ?!?

I've asked you once and I will ask you again, provide specific examples of how RBR doesn't run at high quality (and an explanation of what you actually mean by that would not go amiss) and doesn't run smoothly.

I've played RBR to death on the PC and PS2 and while the PS2 version does not have the same visual prowess as the PC version run on a descent machine its far from the low quality, glitchy product you seem to be implying it is. Point blank RBR walks all over any other rally sim and the rally modes offered in the likes of GT4, Enthusia, TRD3, etc.


Regards

Scaff