Do you think that GT is losing the battle against Forza?

[FoolKiller]

what would be the point of sticking to the track if careering into walls, barriers and other cars was the fastest way to lap?!

Because no one who races properly would race you anymore and then you are stuck in a wall-riding race.

Then if people can watch online races we will laugh at you as you bounce around like a drunken stooge.



Or, self respect, just maybe.

 

[Kent]

Damage is one thing... Custom stickers and paint is another...
I can't even guess regarding damage.
Paintshop so to speak, I'm betting that will be included (but again not sure).
Stickers, I doubt.

Personally, I think my priorities would be (this is for me, not anyone else)...
Paintshop
Damage
Stickers

Customizing my car's appearance is really the last thing I care about in the next GT game.
I just don't care about getting stickers and decals on my cars (even in Forza 1 I was the type to do plain jobs without stickers).

As for being an individual online...
That comes from being a good racer, not a good looking racer.

Of course, again, that's just me... I'd rather be known as the fast driver than the guy with cool sticker designs.
Probably just another reason I didn't spend as much time with FM1 as I did with GT4.

In any case, if you're top priority is to judge GT5 by the presence or absence of decals and paintshop then I doubt you will be happy with the game.

Of course, that brings me to think of the differences between players... We all have different priorities, mine just happen to be on subjects other than decal editors.

As for careening into walls and online not being a step forward...
If you can't see the point in racing clean then please feel free to race dirty. With or without damage, I'm sure dirty racing will never earn you respect as a fast racer or respect as a winner (or respect of any kind for that matter).

Now that I look at your post again I can already see that you must have been one of the people during the history of GT who never cared about running clean races (since your logic would imply that there was no point to staying on the course in any of the previous GT games).

In any case, I've always been big on clean racing so dirty racing is something I don't really care for or respect (as some of you might know based on my OLR here on the GTP).

Btw, good answer foolkiller. 👍
I just couldn't word it so concisely.
I think you hit the nail on the head with one phrase... Self-respect, something I doubt any dirty racer knows anything about.

 

[Dave A]

With regards to applying decals and stickers though Kent, I and many others find that there's a lot of enjoyment and satisafaction to be gained from creating you own masterpieces visually, not just performance wise. I love recreating race car liveries and creating authentic looking fictional ones as well.

 

[Ske]

With regards to applying decals and stickers though Kent, I and many others find that there's a lot of enjoyment and satisafaction to be gained from creating you own masterpieces visually, not just performance wise. I love recreating race car liveries and creating authentic looking fictional ones as well.

What springs to mind is adding numbers to the cars... not necessarily an intricate livery, just starting numbers to identify the cars. Imagine an online race with a dozen cars that look exactly the same, how would you (or spectators for that matter) know who's who without having to "compromise" the UI?

 

[Biggles]

I think GT5 will just be GT but with better graphics just like the last 10 years have given us.

I believe this is where the arrival of Forza on the scene really has changed the playing field. I don't think it is possible for PD to simply put out a prettier version of the last GT.

 

[Dave A]

I agree there, I think if Kaz just does a rehash but prettier it could spell the beginning of the end for the series dominance. Though I think Kaz is aware of this. Something that may be forgotton by a lot of people is that brief mention Kaz made of engine swaps being in GT5, we've more recently seen increased grids. We've seen a livery editor on a potential to do list, so we know they had at elast been discussing these things. Also Kaz has mentioned a couple of times that the cars are modeled body part by body part so that you can swap parts. He also said body parts would be a mix of licensed and fictional kits. So these discussion certainly have been going on, and I think if Kaz pulls out of including such features in GT5 he may well find himself out of favour with the fans. Forza 2 recieved great reviews and is doing well in Japan, Kaz knows that and I think that Forza 2;'s Japanese success will if nothing else, be what would spur him on to make the GT series stand out again.

 

[Kent]

I agree with Dave A on both of his last replies.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not against decals and all that stuff, I just don't value it over other elements of game play. In my list of priorities for GT5 decals comes somewhere after weather and sometime before umbrella girls.

As for Forza2's success in Japan... I think it is great for the exact reason Dave listed. You just can't get around the fact that Kaz must be feeling the heat and I doubt he's ready to get out of the kitchen at this point.

 

[mind]

Guys, I didn't read all your posts but I just think that if you've got a Xbox360 you buy Forza, when you have a PS3 you buy Gran Turismo 5, simple as that in my opinion...

 

[Quiet_Storm]

^^^Yes, simple if you already own either one or the other system. What if people are waiting to see if GT5 will be worth dropping $600 down for over having to only drop $300-400 for the 360. As for me, I have nothing to worry about since I already have both and am currently enjoying Forza 2 on my 360 while the PS3 is just sitting there collecting dust until a worthwile game comes out for it.

If Kaz is putting out another GT4 with prettier graphics and better sound. You can count on the end of the GT franchise because Forza 2 has so much more to offer right now. I'm sure Kaz knows what's going on and I'm sure all the guys at PD has been keeping a closed eye on Forza 2's success with what it's offering so we really have nothing to worry about. Think of it as 2 car manufacturer going at it with a specific model of car. Dodge's Viper and Chevy's ZO6 Corvette. They're keeping a close eye on their competition so they can 1 up them with the next model.

 

[Wolfe]

Wolfe: most of what you say I would agree with, but it's a question of balance: the good physics of EPR cannot compensate for its many weaknesses. I enjoy playing EPR for the positive elements in the game, but overall I consider it significantly inferior to both GT4 & Forza.

And this is where things turn completely subjective. In a driving sim, I value realistic physics over everything else, which is why I play Live for Speed with its miniscule list of content and already-outdated graphics, and prefer Enthusia over anything else any console has to offer.

Also, I do still think you're underrating Enthusia's graphics and sound. But that's also subjective, at least partially.

 

[scandisk]

If Kaz is putting out another GT4 with prettier graphics and better sound. You can count on the end of the GT franchise because Forza 2 has so much more to offer right now.

In the eyes of hardcore / sim-racers maybe, still, I wouldn't go that far. And if that happens then expect a lot of criticisms and negative reviews/feedbacks. But with its fan base, you can still count higher sales. (though it could be lower than their expectations)


edit: It still irks me that DIRT outsold Forza2 in overall sales in it's first week (VGchartz anyone?)

edit2: Despite earlier reports that 500,000 copies had been sold, it turns out that this figure from Codemasters was misleading. Codemasters have sold 500,000 copies... to retailers! That is, according to an interview Joystiq had with VG Chartz president Brett Walton.

 

[Earth]

This is what KY has planned for GT5 (OFFICIAL):

- All Ferraris
- Online Garage
- Minimum 12 player online races
- HOME support
- Time Trial
- Track Day
- B-Spec Race
- License Test
- Drift Contest
- Tuning / settings features
- Friend List
- Lobby
- Voice Chat
- Bulletin Board
- Damage for racing cars
- Spectator Mode
- Team Builder
- Club Builder
- Coloring / Livery Editor
- Number Plate Editor
- Race Builder tool
- Photo Album

So I doubt GT will lose the battle vs Forza. It has already won the battle in terms of # of cars on track, 8 vs 16, and graphics.

 

[Badsight]

Forza 1's AI was almost an exact replica of GT4's (good, bad, or otherwise). With Forza's AI being just like GT4's, the damage in Forza put a real cramp on game play... Not only did the AI run like idiots, but their stupidity always meant my car got damaged for their poor driving (which ruins the race and forces a restart).

no way . GT4 Ai are just plain dumb , & with only one line

at least in FM1 they had additional lines they could take

Ai is one of the biggest CPU hogs there are . running them takes huge amounts out of each CPU clock cycle . no game has Ai . its all scripted , what more power allows is more scripting

& GT5 badly needs to improve on GT4's Ai

 

[scandisk]

This is what KY has planned for GT5 (OFFICIAL):

- All Ferraris
- Online Garage
- Minimum 12 player online races
- HOME support
- Time Trial
- Track Day
- B-Spec Race
- License Test
- Drift Contest
- Tuning / settings features
- Friend List
- Lobby
- Voice Chat
- Bulletin Board
- Damage for racing cars
- Spectator Mode
- Team Builder
- Club Builder
- Coloring / Livery Editor
- Number Plate Editor
- Race Builder tool
- Photo Album

So I doubt GT will lose the battle vs Forza. It has already won the battle in terms of # of cars on track, 8 vs 16, and graphics.

hmmmm..... those are future plans, and none of the highlighted text are official (AOTM)

 

[Earth]

I don't know what AOTM means, but the higlhlighted text is offical, they do plan to include it among their 'online features'

 

[JohnBM01]

I'm guessing "AOTM" probably means "as of this moment." Yeah, I know. I usually try to avoid text message-speak on GTPlanet. I think I'm most intrigued by the coloring/livery editor. I'd like the Team Building deal to be for online AND offline. It would be micromanagement to get together some AI teammates together to traverse through GT5, but I'd still like to be able to build my own race team like in some of my past threads.

--- Artificial Intelligence... or Artifical Ignorance? ---
As far as AI goes, I (finally) found my ToCA Race Driver 3 CD and played it for the first time in months. I was reminded to how much I like to look at people funny and get angry when someone mentions that GT's AI is the worst in any racing game. The ToCA RD3 reminded me of why I'm so hateful of people thinking GT's AI is terrible. I did the Supertruck International Racing series with the semi trucks. I was trying to make passes, but some of the AI intentionally rammed me off the road. I then did a race in the Japanese Works GT cup at Adelaide. My NSX was basically put into a wall as people knocked me from one wall to another. GT's AI does punt you from behind at times, but usually never to the point in which I go off the road into a spin. The AI in ToCA RD 3 is competitive, but too overaggressive and terrible. I'm upset when someone says GT has the worst AI of any racing game when there are other racing games that infuriated me with terrible AI. Even a lot of the negative Forza comments were against the AI. I still think it's no excuse to say that an online-enabled feature purely gets rid of any AI issues. You make the AI competitive even if a person wants to go online and race against others. You don't intentionally (generalization) make AI so bad that you are required to go online to find better competition. What do you do in the meantime? Find some varied talent to race the cars and let their moves and emotions determine the pace. My recommendations in the AI department:

My GT5 AI Recommendations
1.) No drivers should intentionally ram me off the road when trying to make a pass or in being passed.

2.) Competitive AI is perfectly fine, but not to the point of crashing into me. If the AI designers put so much effort into doing "real racing" against me, why don't the drivers whack OTHER drivers off the track?

3.) I think AI racers should make mistakes on the track. This even includes front-runners. More experienced racers are less-likely to be part of race-changing crashes and spins, but they should still possess some human, non-perfect attributes. Think about the ALMS race at Long Beach earlier this year when a GT Porsche spun out one of the Audi R10's. The less-experienced types should be the ones you usually have to avoid often.


And if it means anything, maybe introduce some "roster" of racers complete with their own levels of personality, driving style, attitude towards others, skills, and that sort of thing. This would help make believable AI. Some sort of random name scheme would also be interesting for GT5. I'm not usually hateful of GT's AI. I think they could maybe enhance the AI to be more human and be a bit more competitive and aggressive (without overkilling the aggression).



Overall, AI is just AI. It's not meant to be overly impressive unless you have a game like GTR or maybe rFactor where you're in a purely profesisonal environment. Let me get to a different kind of topic in regards to GT vs. Forza. Neither game is a hardcore racing sim in the sense of GTR or the ToCA Race Driver series. Do you think GT's (or even Forza's) respective values are tainted because they aren't pure racing games?

 

[Ske]

Do you think GT's (or even Forza's) respective values are tainted because they aren't pure racing games?

If you mean value as in "play value" or fun factor, it's a pretty definite no for me. I'd rather have close to real physics and enjoyable presentation with a nice car selection, various timesinks and "side games" as I like to call them, than true to life physics and no light entertainment at all... which is why I prefer console "quasi sims" over hardcore stuff like LFS/GTR.

If you mean something completely different, please elaborate

I do want the physics to be as real as possible, but not at the cost of the "RPG" factor. The freedom to take a whole bunch of cars and go do whatever on a whole bunch of tracks with great graphics and sounds. I think a combination of Forza's traction and GT's load physics would be perfectly possible to do if PD and Turn10 learn from eachother, and that would create a pretty good simulation, I think.

This is also why EPR failed to capture me. It still had "console" compromises and physics - albeit they might be closer to reality -, but none of the little extra something that you find in GT and Forza.

...And on the topic of AI, I like what Forza 2 has done. The AI might be slow and pretty poor racers, but they don't crash into you unless provoked. You always race the same, named AI drivers, and from what I understand some are more aggressive than others, and they tend to give you a taste of your own medicine. If you race cleanly, they "respect" you and avoid contact... but if you ram them they'll more than likely return the favor. If not in this race, possibly the next one as I think karma is stored in the savegame, so to speak

Back on the OP topic for a split second: I sincerely hope that PD will learn from Turn 10 as well as the other way around. Since PD doesn't participate in the community like T10, we really have no idea if they're listening to the audience or how they think... which is a shame. I think the times have changed, and that developers need to develop some sort of interaction with their customers in form of a forum or similar..

 

[Drift_Kid35]

I personally cant wait until i get Forza 2 but when i do i will still play gt. I like how on forza2 you can customize almost everything including engine swaps and body kits

 

[Biggles]

I'm still puzzled why Kent, John & others find the AI so bad in Forza 1. It makes me think that they have simply not played it enough to fully understand the AI.

When I started I found the AI very aggressive, constantly running into the back of my car on tight corners. After putting a lot of time in, however, I found this hardly ever happened, & I realised that the reason they were rear-ending me was because I was "unexpectedly" overbraking. If an AI car would brake unexpectedly hard or early going into a corner, I would rear-end it too.

I have never experienced being deliberately "run off the road" by the Forza 1 AI. It is true that contact with an AI car often results in spinning out. This seems to me to be pretty realistic & is what is sadly lacking in GT4 - it is a major reason why you have to try & race "clean" in Forza.

Overall, I believe the AI in Forza 1 is pretty impressive: varied & very tough. Every race unfolds differently with the result that you can re-run the same race many, many times & still find it interesting & challenging. This is certainly not true of GT4 where once you have "beaten the game" in a race, you tend to move on to another race.

 

[Diab]

Now that I look at your post again I can already see that you must have been one of the people during the history of GT who never cared about running clean races (since your logic would imply that there was no point to staying on the course in any of the previous GT games).

Wow for a mod on a GT board you are unsurprisingly very narrow minded and thanks for the assumption that I am one of those racers who just careers off everything just because you can. Where in fact you couldn't be more wrong, I am one of the cleanest racers on Forza, Forza 2 and even when you could get a decent lag free game of GT4 over Kai raced very clean and considerately around the Nordschleife.

So please take your head out of your rear and don't make general assumptions based on your own narrow minded opinions. If you honestly think that most people online will race in a certain manner just to be civil and respected then you're way wrong, how many have glitched on Forza, how many wallbang on PGR, how many cut massive corners in sims like GTR and rFactor? Answer; Many people because it can be done and GT has always been the worst for it and if it stays that way then it will just get laughed at, fantastic photorealistic graphics or not, as believe it or not for many, Gameplay > Graphics.

@biggles: Oh man I hope you are right, Forza will hopefully make PD take note and implement as well as improve their franchise otherwise GT will no longer be joint top on podium in this genre.

 

[FoolKiller]

Answer; Many people because it can be done and GT has always been the worst for it and if it stays that way then it will just get laughed at, fantastic photorealistic graphics or not,

Fortunately for us we have this happy little GTP community where we can find reputable people to race against and if this became an issue I would personally start a thread listing every cheap shot, wall riding, corner cutting player. A black list, if you will.

as believe it or not for many, Gameplay > Graphics.

This is why I bought a Wii first.

 

[Ben Aracin]

Well JohnBM01 what your suffering from a far as Toca3 is concerned is called the Gran Turismo syndrome/sickness.
You've gotten used to the mind numbingly boring and line attached car/opponents from the GT series for so long that when another racer comes out with an A.I. that DOES move around the track and gets aggresive that you have a harder time enjoying the race.
Don't get me wrong Toca3's A.I. has it's moments of stupid but it does have different kinds of A.I. opponents to deal with.
I'm not saying you do as a fact but maybe if you start watching your replays you'll find your the one causing at least half the accidents/crashing.
I know i did when i first got Toca3 i hated the A.I. but after watching some replays i realized that i was the one doing alot of non race element style racing, ala GT.
I have had good runs where the A.I. differs as much as day and night, everything from passive and conservative opponents to the aggresive ones that block me at every turn and my favorite, the AI that races with me down a long straight, trying to get to the turn first only to run right of the track because it wasn't "paying attention" to where it was on track.
As for your GT5 suggestions i pretty much agree with you on all of it.
Now the rest of this post is just for whoever.
I did play the first Forza and besides the bit much arcade style it was fun at times even with it's A.I.
It was the same thing i mentioned above, at first i couldn't get why they were made to bust me every chance.
I started over and started watching my line, if i couldn't pass clean i didn't.
Eventually the A.I. opponents grew more "aware" of my style and while they did improve it wasn't a perfect fix.
There was still dumb moments but most of the time they ran with me, not into me. I really do believe that any form of A.I. opponent is way better than the botA.I. that GT has always had, with a bit of exception from GT2,3,and 4 where going down a long straight they did SOMETIMES go around instead of trying to "breed" with my car. I also think that if GT5 prolouge and finally GT5 have an decent A.I. the same thing i hear about other games A.I., i'll hear about GT's as well, simply because most folk are "used" to it being the way it was instead of reacting to their human opponents.
It's going to frustrate people, and it will hopefully make them rethink the way they run in a race.
On a last note even though i will always enjoy Enthusia (have since i got that game a long time ago) The A.I. in it DID react to me as well.
Love that game and am STILL trying to get all my Enthusia life cars fully upgraded, about halfway there, only five more years to go, heh heh.
I'll also agree with Diab as Gameplay > Graphics. To me that's a given,always has been always will be.

 

[Kent]

Well I don't know what to say...
There are many here who disagree- simple as that.
Some believe Forza1 had great AI while GT4 had poor AI. Something think the opposite and some think both were poor.

As for me, I spent enough time with Forza1 to feel like I understood the game rather well. Enough said.
If we disagree about the AI in FM1 fine.

The only thing that bothers me is the intention to make things personal. Suggesting I take my head out of my rear-end, not make assumptions etc etc...
I wasn't the one who said...

...and yes online would equate to that too as what would be the point of sticking to the track if careering into walls, barriers and other cars was the fastest way to lap?!

Now really, isn't the quote shown here just as much of an assumption as what I said? It is an assumption that racers will race dirty because the lack of damage could allow wall-riding to be faster (the assumption in that quote is quite simple and obvious in my opinion as well as far more generalized).

Even worse to me is that fact that my assumption was based on the logic shown in what I quoted, it had nothing to do with the fact that I disagree with the person in question (nor did I include any sort of personal insult).

So with all this aside, I just want to emphasize that when you disagree with someone it's no reason to suggest they are ignorant or narrow minded.
I've been polite enough not to suggest such things and I would appreciate the same in return.

My "assumption" was that a racer who believes a lack of damage warrants poor driving could likely be a racer who would practice poor driving based on the logic presented by said driver.

I never made personal insults or suggested members who disagree with me had their head in their rear-end or were narrow minded.
Please keep that in mind when colorfully responding (along with the basics of the TOS and AUP).

It's not about me... It's about the board in general.
If we can't disagree politely then the argument will come to an end one way or another... Catch my drift?

 

[MasterGT]

I just want to clear up what many have completely mis-quoted...
I did not say the AI in Forza 1 and GT4 were alike or the same or similar.
I said they were both horrible.
There's a big difference between being the same and both being horrible.

With that in mind, I don't see how videos of FM2 or testimonies from developers can change the plain fact that FM1 (as well as GT4) had bad AI.

Not once did I say AI from GT was better or worse than Forza's. All I said was they are different, how Forza 1's AI was related to an improved Forza 2 AI and why, and that Forza's AI has a better path to improving, even while racing. We all know they could be done better and they did try to improve the Forza 2 AI. We just don't know how PD will change things related to improving AI in GT5 yet.

I put this info forward to make sure everyone was on the same page, because if you don't understand the differences between the two methods of AI, then you can't debate very well, and having it come straight from Forza's devs would be a bit better than trusting me.

But none of this matters now because both GT4 and Forza 1 are dinosaurs and one has already been rejuvenated, with the other one about to be updated soon.

Cheers,

MasterGT

 

[Diab]

My "assumption" was that a racer who believes a lack of damage warrants poor driving could likely be a racer who would practice poor driving based on the logic presented by said driver.

Wait so by your logic, you think that someone who points out a potential problem in the racing aspect of this game is the same kind of person who would race in the manner that he is in fact protesting about and doesn't want to see happen? Hmm that seems right.

And your assumption was the first attempt at making this personal as you feel because I have pointed out this huge and fundamental flaw of the entire GT series to date, that I must in fact be a bad racer who barges his way to the front, yeah thanks for that. To answer your question though, no, the assumption is based on fact and time proven experience with the series from the very first GT back in 1998 and with the advent of the internet seeing videos that have been posted by people showing how to "beat" certain challenges and the like.

I like discussion and have had a good few here, at Forzacentral (where I will actually point out the good of GT but I also know of it's flaws) and there is also a really good conversation going on at the official Forza forums also, what I despise is fanboys or narrow mindedness which is apparent in all camps that even when you point out that title B does something better than title A, it's completely disregarded or shot down with some stupid comment.

What I think people fail to realise, is that they are loyal to a brand and for no real reason at all as what do you get in return for it? Nothing, notta, not even an acknowledgement to say they are even listening which is apparent as in 10 years nothing has really changed with GT except for the usual adding to the roster. I really hope PD get their finger out due to Forza and enthusia but if they don't then we'll probably be hearing about Forza 3/GTR and hopefully an enthusia 2 close to or on GT5's release. PD can't be lazy anymore, simple as that.

 

[Biggles]

Not once did I say AI from GT was better or worse than Forza's.

You may not have said it, MasterGT, but I certainly have no problem saying it: Forza 1's AI may not be perfect, but it is far, far beyond what is in evidence in GT4.

Gameplay > Graphics

I know people like to say that, but in the end graphics is part of the gameplay. I find it easier to judge the turn in for a corner in GT4 than in Forza or Enthusia because the visuals cues are better. This makes the driving more precise & more immersive.

 

[toyota_gt1]

overall gt was prevall. one problem i have is 2 player in gt it's just the 2 of you

 

[SavageEvil]

No it's not losing to Forza, in fact it's about to open up a can of Blu Ray sized whupp-you know the rest.

I'm sorry Biggles, but I own Forza 1 and 2, along with GT4. Forzas' 1 AI can be the most ignorant thing i've come across, from time to time. I have played the game until I just couldn't bear the cheapness of the AI. If you select the NY course where the straightaway leads to that left turn, you'll know what I mean. I have never witnessed such stupidity, AI will barrel down the straight and smash into the wall while trying to turn, damn near every lap too(this was a very consistent happening as well). I for one have never witnessed that in GT4 EVER. Both GT4 and Forza 1 AI's aren't the most intelligent, but they aren't that far apart in idiocy.

Diab, what are you going on about? If you undeniably made that comment, then you either have concerns or are guilty of doing it/thinking of doing it. But as others have said they prefer to race cleanly. Like uncle ben said "with great power, comes great responsibility...", just cause you can't damage your car, doesn't mean you have to cheapen the experience by using otherwise frowned upon methods of driving. Look no car damage the game is less of a game because it doesn't punish me for driving off the road, i'll take advantage of it and cheat. Hey as a gamer, I do hold myself to my own code of gameplay ethics. I refuse to cheat or take advantage of a games flaws, voluntarily that is. Now that you are on GTP, if you are a clean driver, damage or no damage you will be able to have clean races. Soo pretty much the damage issue isn't much of an issue now is it?

 

[JohnBM01]

This is what I mean... I don't complain about bad AI if I've never been knocked off the track and eventually lost. I did a... Formula 3 race, I believe, in ToCA RD 3. It was the final lap as I was trying to retain the lead from another car. The car I was trailing tagged my rear tires. I spun, I lost the race, I was mad as hell. Some of you would think this is good AI despite my misfortune because not everyone has an easy path to the finish line. However, we do have a such thing as avoidable contact. Let me give you an example of aggresison vs. clearly bad driving:

Aggressive (but clean) Driving Example
The 2007 12 Hours of Sebring - the classic GT2 battle between Risi Competizione and Flying Lizard came down to an aggressive, yet clean finish. The ALMS didn't even deem this as bad driving. It was great racing even though Flying Lizard wasn't too happy with losing to Risi at Sebring. Neither car spun out.

NASCAR Busch Series at Mexico: 2007 - Juan Pablo Montoya spun out Scott Pruett(?)'s Juicy Fruit car. The contact was unintentional despite the fact JPM tapped Pruett's left-rear tires.

Darlington 2003 - Ricky Craven vs. Kurt Busch ended up in a race to the finish. Craven basically made Busch brush up the outside wall. Regardless, Ricky Craven won the race in a thrilling finish in a motorsport in which thugging on the race track makes great ratings and gets people hating on anything that isn't NASCAR.


Clearly Bad Driving
San Jose Grand Prix 200? - One example was when Paul Tracy (my favorite controversial racer) was off the track and rejoined... just to collect one of his fellow countrymen, Alex Tagliani. The two had their rumble off the track while on the streets of San Jose. Tracy didn't seriously acknowledge

Bristol (Day Race) 2004 - Dale Earnhardt Jr. intentionally spun out at one point during a race at Bristol. You can read more about what Dale Jr. tried to accomplish by reading this online article: < http://www.thedailystar.com/sports/2004/04/03/sppbob.html >. It was simply a way to force a caution to try to give his teammate a chance to win the race late down the stretch.


So you see, there's a difference between aggressive driving and bad driving. Bad driving is basically (and I'm going to get on some people about it) the game developers making AI so bad that it's a cheap promo to show off how car damage looks in the game. Bad driving means that I'm simply trying to win a race while people knock me off the race track like I'm a piece of s:censored: compared to the other jive turkeys on the track. Bad driving means that every race aren't races- they're fights. It means I have to beat the AI senseless so I can win races, even if I end up on one tire running with a f:censored:ed up engine. It means the AI is so belligerent that the AI opponents literally prevent you from winning races. I think back to my Forza demo experience when I was running just fine until some jackass motherf:censored: clipped me and knocked me into the outside wall on Laguna Seca's main straight. Pro Race Driver has some of the worst AI of all time. It was only 8 cars to a track (for the PS2 version), but I've never been so enraged racing against a bunch of AI gamers. Sure, more human opponents would be more sane. However, Codemasters should have been ashamed of themselves for making a racing agme with bull:scensored: AI. The kinds of racers that will literally knock you off the track even as you're trying to simply finish a race, much less win. ToCA RD 2 was alright. It's been a while for me playing that specific title, so I don't know what the AI is like there. ToCA RD 3 shown no evolution in terms of smart drivers who don't make cowardly moves like spinning out somebody. And sometimes when I'm mad, I intentionally whack somebody off the track just to show that I'm not going to take the bad AI anymore.

Having made these rants, I still think GT is the best at the end of the day. I'll get roughed up and tagged from behind, but never enough to be knocked off the track intentionally. Only once in GT4 have I been whacked and almost lost the race. But when it's a habit that I'm against inferior AI, then I'll complain. I raced as best as I can, and I rarely seen GT AI cars try to intentionally take me out like a hitman having a bad day. If it hasn't happened to me all that much, I won't complain. It may even be strange to say that I'm glad GT4 didn't have damage because I'd be ticked off if someone screweed up my car by whacking me and making my repair bill rise for the car I'm racing. It's all about competitive AI while not putting thugs behind the wheel of perfectly-fine cars. With a game of 16 cars to a track (20 or 24 would be great), I'd rather race 15 Tom Kristensens than 15 Tony Stewarts.

 

[Ske]

I've been knocked into the sandpits on 80% of the times I head into a turn with an AI car chasing me in GT4.

In Forza 2, the AI (if possible) manages to avoid hitting me by either compromising it's own braking or line. I noticed that once I started driving more aggressively, they started knocking me a bit back, but nothing like GT4 where I'd basically be rammed at high speed.

In GT4, no AI cars just don't compromise their speed or programmed racing line for obstacles. As far as I'm concerned, it's not even AI... the difference is like night and day, but not in GT's favor.

Also note that I'm talking about Forza 2, not 1, because that's where the battle is... I don't see any point in discussing Forza 1 anymore unless you wanna compare it to GT3 instead.