Do you think that GT is losing the battle against Forza?

[unv412]

^RBR is all you say it is, and to many people (me) it is the epitome of a rally sim (could never get the DFP to feel right on 900 deg rotation??? 1 day!) (also needed Group B cars etc)and I also agree with Wolfe on his points of EPR.My thing with racing sims is that I,ve never been into tuning cars, to me I love that EPR/GT4 had the original colours(including names) so im not too interested in the custom painting side of mods.The other stuff like bigger turbos etc never interests me because in the real world any car,with enough money thrown at it can be made to corner/accelarate/stop better,but exactly how accurate replicating these mods are in the gameing world is all abit suspect.At least jumping in a standard car in EPR/GT/FM seems to be more realistic for me as I would hope the developers have set the physics up using actual data gained from testing real life vehicles.

 

[Tenacious D]

Well, I just got my 360 Elite back today - and would have had it yesterday if my idiot landlord had told me. Gah. I've been getting reacquainted with Forza 2's physics, and... well, let me say that Gran Turismo has nothing to worry about.

But let me explain a bit. After returning to GT4 and getting the PS3/GT HD, I have to admit to falling in love with Gran Turismo all over again. Seeing the GT5 Prologue has sent me head over heels.

But that doesn't mean I think Forza is hopelessly busted or anything. Forza does some things wonderfully. But I must say that it falls short in some puzzling areas.

The 3D perspective of Forza is still kind of weird. Or it's the physics, or a combination. But approaching a turn is almost as awkward as it is in Forza 1 and Enthusia.

This is complicated by the audio, which is one thing that IS hopelessly frooked up. For one thing, the engine sounds of all the other cars are LOUDER than mine. I've cut their sound levels way back in the mixer and they're still too loud. This makes it essential to keep an eye on your tach, which is a problem when you're trying to keep an eye on the track too. On top of that, the tire sounds are messed up. It's bad enough that they used a Buick for all the tire sounds, but they also lowered the pressure to about 20 psi, so even tiny Miatas and Elises sound kind of like a GMC truck. And that would be fine if strange, but the tires only give off a frantic roar of complaint when the tires are badly loosing grip. Prior to that, they give this soft whisper noise, and that's TOTALLY wrong. Tires complain quite distinctly as you force them through the friction envelope from grip to skidding, and while you still have useful grip, they're making quite a fuss about it. This is essential to taking a turn in racing games, and something Gran Turismo gets almost perfect.

And then there's the physics. Why Turn 10 has this thing against leaning cars, I don't know, but even street cars are practically ruler straight. On top of that, the brake discs glow on all brake systems, when it should only do that on exotic sport or racing brakes. Those are minor quibbles, but what does vex me are the exaggerated turning dynamics.

Oversteer on all cars seems to be exaggerated. What's more, Turn 10 overdoes the dynamic of taking turns. A proper turn has you braking before what's called the apex or highest point and lowest energy state of the car about a third of the way through it, and then the idea is to power out of the turn so you get max acceleration and speed. Couple the kind of odd perspective with exaggerated physics qualities, and it makes taking a turn challenging, and that would be okay. But adding in the messed up audio and lousy tire sound dynamics and it means you have to FIGHT. EVERY. DAMN. INCH of a turn. And what cheezes me off is thinking I'm doing okay around a curve only to see the ace bot powering past me with ease. There are other things to grouch about like the replay cams and driver views, but I'd be here a lot longer if I wanted to complain about everything, which I don't. I don't want to hate on this game, but dang it to heck, they seem to have gone out of their way to make the thing a better drift game than racer.

I finally got fed up and put soft racing tires on my car, a Lotus Elise currently, and to be sure it's not an easy car to drive. But driving in Gran Turismo is so natural, I'm beginning to wonder if I'll get a Live Gold account by November at this rate. Lord, this is almost as user hostile as it gets.

I still like Forza a lot, and I'm going to stick with it. I intend to create a lot of race cars with my own liveries and a bunch of custom decals. But jeepers creepers, GT5 Prologue can't come soon enough.

 

[Wolfe]

The 3D perspective of Forza is still kind of weird.

You mean the field of view? Yeah, Forza 2's sense of speed seemed slow to me too -- an effect of a field of view that's too narrow.

...tires only give off a frantic roar of complaint when the tires are badly loosing grip. Prior to that, they give this soft whisper noise...

A bit louder than a whisper, but yeah, tires do that in real life.

...and that's TOTALLY wrong.

...oh, this again.

Tires complain quite distinctly as you force them through the friction envelope from grip to skidding, and while you still have useful grip, they're making quite a fuss about it.

This could be correct depending on what constitutes "useful grip" and "quite a fuss."

If it's "starting to slip" and "a softer whine," then great.

This is essential to taking a turn in racing games...

Then am I an insanely skilled driver for being able to drive with the volume muted, or with loud music going?

Why Turn 10 has this thing against leaning cars, I don't know, but even street cars are practically ruler straight.

Agreed.

Oversteer on all cars seems to be exaggerated.

Actually, I just think there's a lack of understeer. Although oversteer is more difficult to control with a RWD car than it should be.

Also, the transition between tire grip and slip is too narrow/brief, which doesn't help your beef with the tire sounds.

 

[Biggles]

Well it's fascinating to me that the 3 major contenders for the title of "King of the Driving Sims" have such distinct approaches.

Forza addressed many of the shortcomings of the GT series, but its physics model took an almost diametrically opposed stance, favouring dramatic oversteer & lock & release braking, compared to the subtle understeer & squishy braking of GT4.

Although there are some touting Enthusia as having superior physics (& I would agree that the sense of weight transfer is, on the whole, far superior to GT4 or Forza), Enthusia's poor graphics & sound give a strangely disconnected feel to the driving (not to bring up all the other assorted weirdness in Enthusia), which, in the end, in spite of the physics, makes it very "unrealistic".

In my opinion, the acid test is to take an adult (not a video game obsessed teen with hundreds of hours of practice on their favourite racer,) with years of driving experience & put them behind the wheel of each console driving sim. Then ask them which one feels most like actual driving. I believe that the answer is always going to be GT4.

With GT5 (or at least GT5P) just round the corner, it's already clear that PD have significantly upped the ante in the graphics department, leaving Forza 2 far behind. If they manage to address satisfactorily the AI isssue, add decent online capability & some customization options, & make even modest improvements to the physics engine - I don't think there's any question that the GT series will take the lead in the sim war...

 

[JohnBM01]

Sound maybe... but come on. Enthusia isn't very beautiful, but it isn't ugly either. I thought Enthusia was very beautiful. And in the sense of good graphics, here is my line of succession ranging from best graphics to worst:

GT4 - Enthusia - Forza

Forza has the worst graphics of the three games at the time they were released. I even said it has the ugliest-looking Audi R8 I've ever seen on a console. But much like some muscle cars, you don't have to have a lot of show to have a lot of go. I've been sick of all the cheap shots directed to Gran Turismo. Here are some examples:

"...unlike the crappy Photo Mode in GT4..."
"...well at least it (Forza Motorsport 2) doesn't have the crappy jazz sounds in Gran Turismo"
"...there's actual damage, unlike another franchise..."
(something regarding cardboard people in stande, according to Play magazine about GT4)

If GT really is the king of racing games, then why aren't most media types fully satisfied? Like I say... nobody takes cheap shots at Forza. Nobody takes cheap shots at Project Gotham. And nobody sure as hell takes cheapshots on Need for Speed or Burnout. Is GT really the real deal, or a serious pretender? Has the torch been passed on to other racing games? Is GT an underdog compared to other racing games? What the bloody hell are some of these people talking about with GT? I'm always listening to what people say about games no matter how stupid they sound. I've heard some of the best things along with some of the most stupid ass bull crap my ears have ever heard and eyes I've ever seen. So I'm going to keep asking- is GT still the premeire racing game franchise, or a dethroned king? Answer a brother!

 

[Ske]

I have to say, if you think Enthusia (and GT4 for that matter) looks better than Forza 2 I'm not even gonna TRY to reason with you, John...

I've seen enough cheap shots directed at either game in forum posts (depends on where you look, obviously), but I agree that the reviews Forza's had in magazines and websites seem kinda overwhelming. It's a good little game, but not the 10/10 some reviewers try to make it.

But to answer your last question in my opinion: GT is still the king, it's just exiled at the moment while the insurgents ravage the land

For me, GT has always been a favorite because of the "RPG" flavor.. but the low speed physics have irked me for a while, and I'm sure many others too. PD can't rest on it's laurels anymore, as new and more "realistic" console sims are showing up for the first time (GT series has pretty much had a monopoly on the genre until Forza and EPR came along). GT needs to keep up with physics and at least some degree of customization if it wants to keep the throne.

Note that I don't even consider PGR, TD, NFS or BO as the same genre here, to me they're in a different ballpark... as they don't even claim to be realistic. I don't understand why some reviewers seem to want to compare them with GT or Forza.

When it comes to EPR: I bought it, and there are a couple of things that really put me off... first, the appaling user interface and tuning system. Second, I really don't think it looks that good.. especially the details. It has a very "gray" look to it that doesn't exactly excite. Last but not least, it doesn't really communicate that well through the steering wheels.. so it seems compromised and made down to a budget, even though the idea was good.

I think Forza sits somewhere between EPR and GT at the moment, and with a good presentation and good side activities like customization, it's hard do dismiss.

I cincerely hope GT5 makes a phenomenal comeback for PD's franchise, and I hope they go for compromised physics like GT4... EPR and Forza really has set higher standards as far as (at least some parts of) realism goes, so if GT5 can combine the usual stunning format with comparable physics it'll be a clear winner in anyone's book.

 

[Stevisiov]

I have to say, if you think Enthusia (and GT4 for that matter) looks better than Forza 2 I'm not even gonna TRY to reason with you, John...

I've seen enough cheap shots directed at either game in forum posts (depends on where you look, obviously), but I agree that the reviews Forza's had in magazines and websites seem kinda overwhelming. It's a good little game, but not the 10/10 some reviewers try to make it.

But to answer your last question in my opinion: GT is still the king, it's just exiled at the moment while the insurgents ravage the land

For me, GT has always been a favorite because of the "RPG" flavor.. but the low speed physics have irked me for a while, and I'm sure many others too. PD can't rest on it's laurels anymore, as new and more "realistic" console sims are showing up for the first time (GT series has pretty much had a monopoly on the genre until Forza and EPR came along). GT needs to keep up with physics and at least some degree of customization if it wants to keep the throne.

Note that I don't even consider PGR, TD, NFS or BO as the same genre here, to me they're in a different ballpark... as they don't even claim to be realistic. I don't understand why some reviewers seem to want to compare them with GT or Forza.

When it comes to EPR: I bought it, and there are a couple of things that really put me off... first, the appaling user interface and tuning system. Second, I really don't think it looks that good.. especially the details. It has a very "gray" look to it that doesn't exactly excite. Last but not least, it doesn't really communicate that well through the steering wheels.. so it seems compromised and made down to a budget, even though the idea was good.

I think Forza sits somewhere between EPR and GT at the moment, and with a good presentation and good side activities like customization, it's hard do dismiss.

I cincerely hope GT5 makes a phenomenal comeback for PD's franchise, and I hope they go for compromised physics like GT4... EPR and Forza really has set higher standards as far as (at least some parts of) realism goes, so if GT5 can combine the usual stunning format with comparable physics it'll be a clear winner in anyone's book.

I couldn't disagree with you there:tup:

BTW I think john meant forza 1, with gt4 and enthusia, not forza 2 because that is an a far better console.

 

[Ske]

BTW I think john meant forza 1, with gt4 and enthusia, not forza 2 because that is an a far better console.

Yeah I guess I thought so too, just didn't seem quite appropriate since forza 2 is the current hot debate. I haven't seen forza 1 first hand, so I'm not gonna comment on that.

 

[Biggles]

Sound maybe... but come on. Enthusia isn't very beautiful, but it isn't ugly either.

Tnere are aspects to Enthusia's graphics that are quite appealing: the car models are pretty good & some of the scenery is quite pretty (a bit like Rallisport Challenge 2), but as a whole it's rather unrealistic which is a bit odd given the attempt at a very realistic physics engine.

When it comes to EPR: I bought it, and there are a couple of things that really put me off... first, the appaling user interface and tuning system. Second, I really don't think it looks that good.. especially the details. It has a very "gray" look to it that doesn't exactly excite. Last but not least, it doesn't really communicate that well through the steering [/I]wheels.. so it seems compromised and made down to a budget, even though the idea was good.

Agreed: the interface is nothing short of mind-boggling. It took me hours of playing to have any idea of what was going on.

I actually think the FF steering wheel works very well with Enthusia. The problem is the sound: in GT4 one of the best features is the way the tire sounds communicate what the car is doing. In Enthusia there is no tire noise at all, even when drifting at high speed, until suddenly that awfull screeching kicks in. I believe this is what makes people say that Enthusia's cars seem like they're "floating" - it's not the FF or the physics, it's the lack of good sound cues (the engine sounds & car collision sounds are also terrible).

As others have commented, a little of Enthusia's physics (especially low speed) injected into GT5, would address one of the weakest areas of GT4's physics.

Forza 1's strength, compared to GT4 & Enthusia, was definitely the AI (of course the customization too), which actually made racing challenging (sometimes too much so) & fun.

 

[Kent]

Forza 1's strength, compared to GT4 & Enthusia, was definitely the AI (of course the customization too), which actually made racing challenging (sometimes too much so) & fun.

I can't agree with that statement.
I played many hours of Forza 1 and the AI was nothing special at all. They made all the same mistakes I saw in GT4. If I made a pass and stole the line, they pushed me off (just like GT4). If I went into a corner and didn't brake perfectly in sync with the guy in front as well as the one behind, there was an accident (just like GT4).

Bottom line:
Forza 1's AI was almost an exact replica of GT4's (good, bad, or otherwise). With Forza's AI being just like GT4's, the damage in Forza put a real cramp on game play... Not only did the AI run like idiots, but their stupidity always meant my car got damaged for their poor driving (which ruins the race and forces a restart).

 

[MasterGT]

At least the devs of Forza are trying to give its AI some real intelligence (freedom), though. They are not using the same kind of AI that GT uses. Forza uses unscripted AI, while GT cars are programmed to repeat the same script over and over.

Forza 1's AI has been described as a child, while Forza 2's has be likened to a teenager. Both are immature, but it is getting better, and we haven't seen PD even try to do similar things - yet.

Cheers,

MasterGT

 

[Biggles]

I played many hours of Forza 1 and the AI was nothing special at all. They made all the same mistakes I saw in GT4. If I made a pass and stole the line, they pushed me off (just like GT4). If I went into a corner and didn't brake perfectly in sync with the guy in front as well as the one behind, there was an accident (just like GT4).

In Forza the cars' lines vary from lap to lap & there is a relatively complex interplay of incidents, so that you could run the same race many times & never have the same sequence of events occur. Yes, the AI is very aggressive & unforgiving & the AI cars will often rear-end you when you brake for a tight corner, but having put hundreds of hours into Forza I can say, that getting re-ended is always a result of overbraking & as your skill level increases it happens very rarely & only when you make a mistake. In addition there is no question that the AI does react to what you do, so if you go wide it will try to cut inside you, if you cut inside it will try to drive outside you.

I've spent a lot more time in Forza than GT4, but as far as I can tell the AI cars in GT4 follow exactly the same line all the time & react not one bit to what you do. This is most obviously apparent if you stop in the middle of the track. In GT4 the following cars will just plow into you, in Forza they will (for the most part) drive around you.

 

[Kent]

Again, I feel I must disagree with the testimonies of Forza 1 presented by Biggles and now mastergt.
My opinion is that Forza1 showed no real improvements over GT4's AI. It is more than likely that GT4 and FM1 differed, but not that one showed greater ability to drive a race with the player.
Both showed the tendency to muscle the driver off the line and cause accidents under braking.
Further, I contend that if GT4's AI was as simple as to repeat identical laps from race start to race end, it would be impossible for AI to spin out or go off track only once in a multiple lap race.

GT4's AI wasn't great, in fact I believe GT4's AI was only worth about 30 on a scale to 100 (100 being perfect).

All I contend is that Forza 1's AI was no better than GT4's AI.

Just as other members mention their play-time with the game, I shall...
My experience with Forza 1 is only offline and maybe 80% complete in Career mode (haven't played for several months now).

 

[Biggles]

Kent: all I can say is that when I started playing GT4 I found the AI so bad that I tend not to race it that much. I prefer to run laps against ghosts of other cars that I have recorded. In Forza the races can be frustrating, maddening even, but they do represent a real challenge & can be exciting...

 

[H3avyM3tal]

The reason GT is getting any kind of negative feedback (of any kind and shape), is because it showed up first, invented a standard, and rolled with it. There wasnt any huge jump from gt3 to gt4, and this series was out for a very very long time.

Ofcourse its gonna get the negative feedback, because its the only series that has something to defend.

 

[Diab]

Kent I have a question, did you even play Forza ? The reason I ask is too even think that Forza's AI is like GT4's is completely laughable. I mean drive along a straight in GT4 on the racing line, slow down to a snails pace and watch as every car crashes you out of it's way.

Now try this in Forza and watch as the AI slows down and passes you, sure you might get hit by 1 on one of the rear quarters but certainly not every car will hit you.

Brake check Forza's AI, you will surprise them and they will usually brake hard to avoid a crash.

Forza had AI that raced, GT had AI that just drove. Also you do know that's Forza's and Forza 2's AI learns as the game progresses right? If you are an aggressive driver they will return the favour, if you are a good clean racer then for the most part so are they.

GT4's AI the same as Forza AI. man that's funny. Biggles good to see someone who knows the difference and likes to play games because of what they offer not because of who they are made by or what their name is.

I know this is FM2, I'll see what I can find in FM.

 

[Dave A]

The reason GT is getting any kind of negative feedback (of any kind and shape), is because it showed up first, invented a standard, and rolled with it. There wasnt any huge jump from gt3 to gt4, and this series was out for a very very long time.

Ofcourse its gonna get the negative feedback, because its the only series that has something to defend.

While I will dissagree that GT is the only series with something to defend, I will agree with your sentiment. The better something is, the higher a degree of scrutiny it comes under. A lot of people often mistake rational scrutinising for anti-GT fanboyism. I've had it myself. There are things I could go on about for days that were wrong with GT4, and from time to time I do make lenthy comments regarding flawed areas. I've had people say to me "why are you on this site if that's how you feel". The truth is, I'm only taking my time to make thoes points because I think the GT series is worth it. If I never liked GT, I'd never say more than I don't like this because of.... and it'd be brief.

The fact of the matter is, GT has a hell of a lot of potential. Ok, I didn't like GT4 nearly as much as past games, but I'd have liked to. I just didn't. I still have a lot of resect for the series, and I only point out flaws and things I didn't like in such detail because I hope the next games gets them right. I don't hope the next game get's them right because I'm a fanboy of some other series. I do that because I'm a GT fan, and want GT to be as good as it can be and more.

I think a few people who voice thier complaints, concerns and general issues with GT4 or any other GT title are often missunderstood in much the same way, I know Wolfe is. And like Wolfe, just because I hope GT is as good as it can be, I'm always open to other games too. I just think theres too many people who see criticism as an anti-GT thing, sometimes it is, but sometimes it isn't. If nothing went under scrutiny, nothing would improve.

 

[KSaiyu]

I hear ya on the anti-GT thing, didn't matter that I imported Prologue and GT4 from Japan and am looking forward to GT5 , some people just take criticisms a little too personal.

 

[Wolfe]

Enthusia's poor graphics & sound give a strangely disconnected feel to the driving...

Sound maybe...

I won't argue about the graphics, because it's hard to please people with that aspect of any game. But the sound? Aside from the music, which isn't to everyone's tastes, the engine sounds are actually unique to each car and seem to be recorded in every single case (the BMW 2002 Turbo, which has a 2.0L version of my engine and a turbo, sounds exactly like my engine at all RPM, but with a turbo "whoosh" ), and not only does the exhaust note change realistically as you gain levels, the transmission starts giving a straight-cut gear whine, and the brake pads are replaced with race-spec ones that squeal more loudly.

I've always considered the sounds to be one of Enthusia's stronger points.

In my opinion, the acid test is to take an adult (not a video game obsessed teen with hundreds of hours of practice on their favourite racer,) with years of driving experience & put them behind the wheel of each console driving sim. Then ask them which one feels most like actual driving. I believe that the answer is always going to be GT4.

Strange -- the only people I've ever met in the real world (not on the internet) who think GT4 feels even remotely like actual driving have been video-game-obsessed teens, some less than 16 years old. I don't mean to offend anyone with this. It's just the truth.

In fact, all of my friends (most of us are around 20 years old, my best friend's roommate is 27) think Enthusia is the superior simulator. And I didn't convince them or tell them to think so.

The problem is the sound: in GT4 one of the best features is the way the tire sounds communicate what the car is doing. In Enthusia there is no tire noise at all, even when drifting at high speed, until suddenly that awfull screeching kicks in. I believe this is what makes people say that Enthusia's cars seem like they're "floating" - it's not the FF or the physics, it's the lack of good sound cues (the engine sounds & car collision sounds are also terrible).

You and Tenacious D are the only people I've ever known to even question the tire noise in the game.

This video quotes a specific post Tenacious D made some time ago in this very thread, but it's still relevant to what you're saying.

The only negative thing about the engine sounds is that it's obvious where some of the samples loop. But they're all recorded, and they should all be accurate. As for the collision sound, it's simple, but it matches the way the cars hit/bounce off the walls. And we all know GT4 isn't any better with that.

A lot of people often mistake rational scrutinising for anti-GT fanboyism. I've had it myself. There are things I could go on about for days that were wrong with GT4, and from time to time I do make lenthy comments regarding flawed areas. I've had people say to me "why are you on this site if that's how you feel". The truth is, I'm only taking my time to make thoes points because I think the GT series is worth it. If I never liked GT, I'd never say more than I don't like this because of.... and it'd be brief.

The fact of the matter is, GT has a hell of a lot of potential...I only point out flaws and things I didn't like in such detail because I hope the next games gets them right. I don't hope the next game get's them right because I'm a fanboy of some other series. I do that because I'm a GT fan, and want GT to be as good as it can be and more.

I think a few people who voice thier complaints, concerns and general issues with GT4 or any other GT title are often missunderstood in much the same way, I know Wolfe is. And like Wolfe, just because I hope GT is as good as it can be, I'm always open to other games too. I just think theres too many people who see criticism as an anti-GT thing, sometimes it is, but sometimes it isn't. If nothing went under scrutiny, nothing would improve.

It's frustrating to look at that long, long list of licensed cars and remember that they're attached to a god-awful physics engine and all pretty much sound the same. Same with the long list of real-world tracks, remembering the fact that none of the banking has an effect on your cornering.

I wouldn't even need all of the problems to be remedied to be happy -- if GT4 was exactly the way it is now, but had the physics from GT3, I probably would have never stopped playing it, and would enjoy it. Of course, that wouldn't excuse GT4 from critique, particularly because GT3's physics weren't really that much more realistic. They were just far, far, far, far more enjoyable.

 

[MasterGT]

Again, I feel I must disagree with the testimonies of Forza 1 presented by Biggles and now mastergt.

It doesn't matter what I think.

Will you listen to the Turn 10 Game Director Dan Greenawalt himself, though? Microsoft is putting to work a research product they have been working on in Cambridge, England, for a number of years.

I'm not saying it is better or not, I'm just saying they are doing it differently than how most other devs do it, including PD, til now, plus it has a better path to improving, too. We will have to wait and see if PD can come up with a similarly free thinking AI on the PS3.

Cheers,

MasterGT

 

[Biggles]

It's hard to argue with you Wolfe: you're the most articulate, dedicated & unyielding of Enthusia footsoldiers out there. I have no idea what prompted you to take up the Enthusia crusade, but boy are you committed!

I don't have any problem with you touting the positive elements of Enthusia, but is it impossible for you to concede that there might exist any flaw in the Ethusia universe? Both Forza & GT4 have a very different approach to tire sounds: they both sound pretty good, but I find GT4's much more informative about what is actually happening to the car. In Enthusia the tire sound starts abruptly & resembles the sound your car might make when a piece of the exhaust system has fallen off & is being dragged behind you on the pavement.

When I was talking about adults trying GT4 for the first time (as opposed to video-obsessed youts) I wasn't talking about just-out-of-their-teens twenty year olds, I was talking about adults who have never played a video game before, but have driven for years. I have introduced GT4 to several of them, & although they have found it difficult to adjust to at first, they have all found it engrossing & realistic. The same has not been true for Forza - it's just not as natural-feeling or intuitive IMO. I haven't tried Enthusia on anyone, as I'm worried it might boggle their minds & over-tax their patience, but I'll give it a go & see what they think...

 

[Wolfe]

It's hard to argue with you Wolfe: you're the most articulate, dedicated & unyielding of Enthusia footsoldiers out there. I have no idea what prompted you to take up the Enthusia crusade, but boy are you committed!

I don't have any problem with you touting the positive elements of Enthusia, but is it impossible for you to concede that there might exist any flaw in the Ethusia universe?

Do you see me trying to refute the claim that Enthusia has a poorly-designed and rather unattractive menu/GUI? Or that its tuning system is too simplistic and limited? Or that the Enthusia Life mode is hard to understand, lacks direction, refuses to give you reward cars too often, and is inundated with useless statistics? Or that its graphics aren't the best the PS2 has to offer? Or that it lacks real-world tracks and has a few too many outlandish fictional ones? Or that its lack of online play is just as much of a bone-headed move as with GT4? Or that the sense of speed is a bit on the slow side? Or that its physics are also imperfect -- including the insane amount of grip and unrealistically friendly grip/slip transitions that the R-class tires have, the overabundance of traction in snow/dirt/gravel, the relative inability to spin a car by throwing it too hard into a drift, the relative ease with which you can avoid overcorrection, the inability to roll over or lift a wheel from cornering, the apparent lack of lift that can be generated from high-speed driving, and the generally high level of grip that the game offers compared to a PC sim like Live for Speed? Or that the game limits/helps you in a few unrealistic ways, including a computer-controlled clutch that minimizes wheelspin, the inability to do a brakestand burnout, and a steering model that responds too slowly (at least with the controller) to do a 180 spin from reverse to forward? Or that, in general, most people find the game too difficult to play with a controller?

Yes, I know full well that Enthusia isn't perfect. Nothing is. But for me it represents a far closer approximation of reality than GT4 does, and I enjoy the game. On top of that, several of the flaws listed above and mentioned by others are negligible to me (menu/enthusia mode/fictional tracks/etc), and I find others to be acceptable given the format of the game and the fact that it was still considered to be "way too hard" by the general gaming public (oversteer a bit too easy to control/clutch that minimizes wheelspin/high grip compared to Live for Speed).

So no, I'm not going to go out of my way to point out the game's flaws. But don't think that means I'm blind to them.

When I was talking about adults trying GT4 for the first time (as opposed to video-obsessed youts) I wasn't talking about just-out-of-their-teens twenty year olds, I was talking about adults who have never played a video game before, but have driven for years.

Actually, unless you let this hypothetical adult spend plenty of time with each and every driving sim, a video-game-playing 20+year old is the more credible source. Bear with me here...

The problem with giving an older adult a go on GT4 and then asking them about it is this -- they don't know what to compare it to, they don't know what to expect, and unless they have experience with high-speed/near-the-limit driving, they're barely a more credible source than someone with half as much time spent behind the wheel.

All they'll do is play for a while, notice that there aren't any turbo boosts or crazy jumps or other such nonsense as seen in arcade-style racing games, and go "yeah, this game is pretty realistic." And even if you let them try other driving sims, they'd have trouble noticing the difference because they aren't used to videogames either way.

Meanwhile, a video-game-playing 20+year old knows what else is out there, knows what to expect, has been playing videogames long enough to easily discern small differences between two similar games, and has been driving just long enough to know what a car should feel like, especially if their earlier years involved immature stunts at greater-than-legal speeds.

The best of both worlds, and the most credible source of opinion, would be an older adult who not only has plenty of experience with videogames and driving sims but also experience with driving various real-world cars at high speeds, particularly as a professional. That reminds me of someone...

If you disagree with the above, well, all I can say is that the 27-year-old roommate I mentioned in the last post has very little experience with driving sims (or anything made for a console newer than the Sega Genesis), and he found GT4 awful yet enjoys Enthusia. Take what you will from that.

 

[JohnBM01]

I will say that some of the American cars did sound more... American than GT4. Some of the racing game folk who play the nationality card would probably laugh in me saying that a Japanese maker (Konami in this case) recording believable sounds than a Japanese racing game juggernaut (Polyphony Digital in this case). If Forza's American car sounds were crap, people would be flaming Turn 10 like they were dopes with a middle school education. The ability for Konami to have those sounds for the Mazda RX-7 when in your in-car view... I consider that more of details than sound. Most of you know I love racing Pacific Gateway and Löwenseering, even though I talk more about Pacific Gateway. I love the song for Pacific Gateway. I almost immediately think of San Francisco on a sunny day or a clear evening. Here's a rule of thumb in judging games by music- not every racing game with classical and/or jazz music is automatically a bad game. And I'll agree- Enthusia isn't easy to comprehend right away. I, too, was surprised at how my little Morris Mini Cooper could actually take on a Mitsubishi Pajero Dakar machine. I had to go with the Odds system. What the hell are Enthu Points? Know what I mean? Enthusia still remains a great game no matter what any jackass thinks.

Retrospect on Forza
Now on to Forza. Allow me to backtrack for a moment. I played a demo of Forza 1 at a Wal-Mart store. I played the game for the first time and thought: "THIS is better than GT4?" I hinted the game's AI got me to intentionally get knocked off the road as I started the demo race at Laguna Seca. It was here when I got to hate Forza as well as the people who supported (my views at this time) this garbage. It was a GT4 thread about which was the better game- GT4 or Forza is the bettern. As soon as I offered my evil view of Forza, I've got flamed like I was in an AOL chat room. In fact, here is the exact post I made on February 7, 2005, that got some in agreement... and others who agreed that I'm a stupid bastard: < https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showpost.php?p=1447176&postcount=3609 and (especially) https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showpost.php?p=1447178&postcount=3610 >. I was thinking, "excuse me... Just because I love Gran Turismo doesn't mean you have to hate on me on a GT forum." Thought it was absurd to offer negative feelings of a non-GT game and get blasted for it. I still had yet to believe Forza's better than GT, especially as EGM said the exact same words in a review. Some "fanboys" on G4TV's forums stated that Forza's a better game than GT simply because Gamespot said it was better. I told them that just because Gamespot said so doesn't mean anything. Just means some guys who can't tell a good racing game from a great game doesn't mean it's the absolute favorite. A few times at Baybrook Mall (Webster, TX, USA), I played Forza Motorsport on the second floor of the Sear's store there. I began to garner a little more interest in what this game brings. I still thought the game isn't as lovely a game as GT4, but I still thought over time that this game is great for what it is vs. what it isn't. Forza can be described like most muscle cars- may not be pretty to look at, but can still kick some butt in a number of fields (and I do have my favorite muscle cars. Just wouldn't call them ugly, though). I would offer a softer view on Forza on June 5, 2005 here: < https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showpost.php?p=1688261&postcount=2 > And as this game series got one year old, I made a thread in the XBOX forums called "Forza Motorsport: One Year Later..." here < https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?t=80646 >. And over time, my respect for Forza got to increase every so often. I began to appreciate what Turn 10 was trying to do with this title for XBOX racing fans. I even anticipated Forza 2 as well as the Speed Channel mini-series called "Forza Motorsport Showdown."

Even by just clicking on some of these old posts, you kind of get an idea of older times on GTPlanet. When I had been chatting on here with my GTP friend, Darin, the colorful McLaren's Angel, Scaff wasn't a Moderator at these times, we had the cobragt/code_kev battles, and that stuff.

-end


What I was getting to is that I've been one of the biggest Forza haters until I actually played the full product. I still love Gran Turismo, but I didn't have as much respect for Forza then as I do now. I just get more along the lines of, "who am I to believe?" I'm not 100% convinced Forza is better than GT, but the series has earned my respect. I can say that I've hated Forza more than I've hated Project Gotham. Simply because these were two different genres. What gets me is about if Forza is better than GT simply because of what many XBOX-heads think. I keep hearing of how PD doesn't listen to their fans while Turn 10 does. I was completely hateful that Forza was judged as a better game simply because of Ferrari and Porsche, online play, and damage. The idea of an online-integreated Career Mode provided a nice experience and a real innovation in racing games. Nothing boiled my blood more than people thinking GT4 is all about slow cars and no big-name companies. GT4 didn't have online and what did people (some of you on GTP as well) do? You flamed PD. You flamed me. Forza's innovations and features sometimes seem to outweight GT's innovations and features. These features of Forza's were more along the lines of what XBOX gamers wanted- online play, damage, and some sort of usage of XBOX-Live. It was Forza who respects Gran Turismo and kind of made a game in its mold. And it's the gaming media and fans who makes this a rivalry. I said that the better game comes to personal preference and perhaps even your favorite system.

I'm always asking on here, "what do you want out of PD?" A number of my comments came under fire. I said you didn't need online play to have a great game. The game has to be great in single player before worrying about online. I just ask if Gran Turismo really is the best racing game on consoles no matter what Forza comes up with. A number of comments usually let me know that GT isn't exactly the best. This means that Gran Turismo is no longer the giant it was according to some people. But look at it like this. I haven't heard of people who think any other game is better than the HALO series. So apparently, the HALO series is still king vs. whatever other competition there is (or lack thereof). So is GT trying to regain its glory with Forza in the way? Is GT a dying franchise? What's it going to take to surpass Forza and may even be better than some PC racing titles? Or have people gotten so sick of Gran Turismo that they don't want GT to EVER be better than Forza (this would be "fanboy-ism" if you're keeping score)? Then again, that is the question this thread asks: is GT falling behind of Forza? I love Gran Turismo, so I'm asking what can be done to make it better? I love the series and don't think it's lagging behind any other racing game in its class. And I'm sure as hell not putting it over Burnout. Those punks are the ones that really get under my rough skin. Why would you put a game that Burnout provides that ends up being better than GT or even Forza? That's just my thing. Gran Turismo seems to be too hard and too uninteresting, so they look for an arcade racer that can be completed in maybe a month rather than months on end with GT. And with Forza, the replay value is multiplied because of the different experiences XBOX Live and online-integreated Career Mode provides for gamers. So it leads me to believe that PD needs to find ways to keep gamers interested for long periods of time so that as few gamers switch to Forza for racing thrills. Same goes for media types who disregard GT and love Forza. Something has to be done. If GT is really on the ropes, then something needs to be done for more people to care about GT. Otherwise, you get more know-it-alls who love to hate GT. I don't think GT is dead. A lot of my peers online and off disagree with me. Maybe one day, GT will finally be respected more and hated less. When will that day come (return)? You be the judge.

 

[Biggles]

Wow!

Honestly, I don't think it requires such in depth analysis, John. IMO it's pretty simple: GT4 provides a better overall driving experience (and also has way more content), but Forza 1 provides a much better racing experience. EPR provides much more detailed physics especially in the area of low - to - medium speed than either, but falls far short in the graphics, sound, tracks & presentation department.

I think Forza 2 has been able to take the leadership away from GT because it's the first next-gen console sim, but it still suffers from many of the same shortcomings of Forza 1 (especially IMO limited track content).

I suspect that given the power of the PS3 (& what we have already seen of the graphics), GT5 will regain its leadership position. But only time will tell.

Wolfe: most of what you say I would agree with, but it's a question of balance: the good physics of EPR cannot compensate for its many weaknesses. I enjoy playing EPR for the positive elements in the game, but overall I consider it significantly inferior to both GT4 & Forza.

 

[Kent]

I just want to clear up what many have completely mis-quoted...
I did not say the AI in Forza 1 and GT4 were alike or the same or similar.
I said they were both horrible.
There's a big difference between being the same and both being horrible.

With that in mind, I don't see how videos of FM2 or testimonies from developers can change the plain fact that FM1 (as well as GT4) had bad AI.

Someone asked me if I had even played Forza...
This is a good sign to me that it is not simply coincidence that people are going on and on about AI in FM2 when I've been talking about FM1. Actually, questions like that, videos from FM2, and quotes from FM2 staff all combine to tell me that people are not taking the time to read what I've said.

I get the feeling that saying Forza1 had bad AI is like saying "call to arms, defend the brand."

Please guys, take the time to realize I compare GT4 with Forza Motorsport 1. To compare GT4 with anything on the next gen is foolish and unfair in my opinion... Of course, I'm cool with other people doing that because I know there isn't much time before GT5P and GT5 destroy the competition.
So get it out while you can because I get the feeling this entire thread will be one huge moot point after GT5 is released.

 

[Biggles]

Kent: Forza 1 & GT4 pretty much equal in my mind. What tips it in GT's favour for me is simply the Logitech wheel support, which gives GT4 the overall edge IMO.

 

[Diab]

Kent if you see what I posted including the video I actually did talk about Forza Motorsport and then tried to find a video of FM but could only find FM2 at that specific time, I'll show some Forza Motorsport later.

And GT5P and GT5 "destroy" the competition, I would like to see that but personally I think GT5 will just be GT but with better graphics just like the last 10 years have given us.

 

[Kent]

Possible but I doubt the full online support will amount to just another GT game that looks a little better.
Of course, there is still the chance that GT5 will not be an online racer.

I suppose we will all find out what GT5 is in due time.
Until then I will just wait patiently (as I have with both next gen systems up to this point in time).

 

[FoolKiller]

Of course, there is still the chance that GT5 will not be an online racer.

Wow, how would they explain off Prologue selling better that the full version?

 

[Diab]

Possible but I doubt the full online support will amount to just another GT game that looks a little better.
Of course, there is still the chance that GT5 will not be an online racer.

Funny guy, of course online will be there but will the single player be like? Will the AI actually give you a race? Will you be able to paint and put a design on your car that shows you as an individual when racing online? Will customisation be more than just a Spoiler and some wheels?

I hope the answer to these questions is yes but what I mean by just a typical GT is an evolution in graphics but not much else, and yes online would equate to that too as what would be the point of sticking to the track if careering into walls, barriers and other cars was the fastest way to lap?!