Do you think that GT is losing the battle against Forza?
- Thread starter The Vanishing Boy
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- England, Warwickshire
- GTP_Sigma
Comparing forza 2 to GT4 is foolish, very foolish.
To put it simply Forza 2 is on a MUCH BETTER CONSOLE and therefore, the developers would have to be constantly drunk to loose out to GT4.People compare forza1 to GT4 because it is the most recent situation where both developers were on a level playing field, i.e. Similar release times and similar consoles. We won't be able to compare Forza 2 till we see GT5 then it will be a case of similar consoles.💡
- 24,553
- Frankfort, KY
- GTP_FoolKiller
- FoolKiller1979
Maybe you are braking too soon? Typically the AI cars brake earlier than me so I usually have to be more careful of hitting them than worried that one will come up and hit me.
Do you also compare Gears of War to Halo 2 or are you thinking Halo 3 will blow it away? Or jump consoles and compare Resistance to Halo 2, one is on a next gen console and the other is last gen. You can't make that comparison.
- 454
- Australia
changed my mind over FM2 after playin Enthusia again. I cannot afford to get an xbox360 (2 consoles a bit to expensive) just for FM2 when I have all fun i need playin Enthusia still.Nothing can explain the sheer joy after AI covered inside (when i faked to inside) and i nailed a perfect over & under coming out of hairpin......or the fact that the AI see's you coming down the inside but deems it unsafe to cover and has this little wiggle as it try's to decide whether or not to run u off the track, requiring you to have total commitment under brakes.LOV IT!!!.So for me I will just have to put up 👍 with Enthusia until GT5 comes out and PS3 gets cheepa.....will miss the ferrari's/porches/lambos from FM2 though????? (now to see what my mate with FM2's doin tommorrow night???
- 6,062
- Simcoeace
Well it's impressive how easily we have been able to arrive at a consensus on this AI issue. 
Yes, the AI in Forza 1 drives badly sometimes, but at least there is an AI. The AI cars react to what you & the other AI cars do & there is an element of randomness to it. As far as I can tell (I am not that far into the game yet), in GT4 the AI cars always follow the same racing line.
The other issue is the AI difficulty: in Forza increasing the difficulty increases the skill level of the AI drivers. In GT4, as far as I can tell, increasing the difficulty just sets you against faster AI cars, which is an entirely different thing...
Yes, the AI in Forza 1 drives badly sometimes, but at least there is an AI. The AI cars react to what you & the other AI cars do & there is an element of randomness to it. As far as I can tell (I am not that far into the game yet), in GT4 the AI cars always follow the same racing line.
The other issue is the AI difficulty: in Forza increasing the difficulty increases the skill level of the AI drivers. In GT4, as far as I can tell, increasing the difficulty just sets you against faster AI cars, which is an entirely different thing...
- 26,829
- Houston, Texas, USA
- JMarine25
Another ToCA RD 3 example... I raced Symmons Plains with the Australian V8 Supercars. I won the race the first time, but decided to do it again to try to win the race without spinning. The problem was that I spun out at the very sharp hairpin in my second attempt. As I tried to gather up my Ford Falcon BA, I noticed someone basically ran into me from the side like I was nonexistant. As I continued to gather up the car, the other jackass drivers rammed into me from the rear. It was almost as if I'm punished for bad driving. And oh yes... I retired from the race after trying to win the race. Maybe Codemasters' racing titles are focused towards straight-up pros and not the casual gamer. Which is why I go back to GT.
Regardless, you never know what bad driving is like until someone whacks you off the road like you're nonexistant. And I think that if you keep getting whacked from behind trying to brake in the corner, perhaps you need to adjust your racing tactics and race the course better. I race the same way I probably would in real life- loving an aggressive style while still trying to corner effectively. I consider myself skilled in using the throttle in effective ways to corner and balance the car. I sometimes even take aggressive lines, usually leading me to fly off the course while trying to fight back to win a race. Think of my skill as being at a B-Spec pace of 3, but willing to shift into B-Spec paces 4 and 5 at will when critical moments arise. I do want to go against some tough-to-pass opposition, but not be impossible to beat. I don't want to race against thugs. I'm looking for some competitive racing without being knocked off the race track. It's never happened to me all that often as other GT gamers think is a common occurance.
I did some reading on Forza 2 in regards to the AI naming deal. Here's a paragraph from a Forza 2 interview in regards to AI driver names:
"The AI you face in Forza Motorsport 2 will have names and personalities that were specifically trained/created by the designers. Some will be fast, but tentative in traffic. Others will take slower lines, but will be more aggresssive toward other cars. By giving them names, the players will be able to recognize the fast and the dangerous drivers from the field." -from: http://www.xboxworld.com.au/articles/interviews/forza-2-interview-xbw-&-microsoft-game-studios.htm
I think this is something GT can attempt, even if you just come up with some random names with random driving styles and personalities. Think of all the races in GT as well as trying to actually keep up with all the drivers and have their own pace towards success (for example: think of an AI driver that races along with you in Family Cup events who eventually works his/her way up to the Gran Turismo championship. Perhaps even winning it all). It was my unique idea of a "roster" of racers to work with. Do you think something like this could be done in GT5 and perhaps extend the deal Forza 2 started?
Regardless, you never know what bad driving is like until someone whacks you off the road like you're nonexistant. And I think that if you keep getting whacked from behind trying to brake in the corner, perhaps you need to adjust your racing tactics and race the course better. I race the same way I probably would in real life- loving an aggressive style while still trying to corner effectively. I consider myself skilled in using the throttle in effective ways to corner and balance the car. I sometimes even take aggressive lines, usually leading me to fly off the course while trying to fight back to win a race. Think of my skill as being at a B-Spec pace of 3, but willing to shift into B-Spec paces 4 and 5 at will when critical moments arise. I do want to go against some tough-to-pass opposition, but not be impossible to beat. I don't want to race against thugs. I'm looking for some competitive racing without being knocked off the race track. It's never happened to me all that often as other GT gamers think is a common occurance.
I did some reading on Forza 2 in regards to the AI naming deal. Here's a paragraph from a Forza 2 interview in regards to AI driver names:
"The AI you face in Forza Motorsport 2 will have names and personalities that were specifically trained/created by the designers. Some will be fast, but tentative in traffic. Others will take slower lines, but will be more aggresssive toward other cars. By giving them names, the players will be able to recognize the fast and the dangerous drivers from the field." -from: http://www.xboxworld.com.au/articles/interviews/forza-2-interview-xbw-&-microsoft-game-studios.htm
I think this is something GT can attempt, even if you just come up with some random names with random driving styles and personalities. Think of all the races in GT as well as trying to actually keep up with all the drivers and have their own pace towards success (for example: think of an AI driver that races along with you in Family Cup events who eventually works his/her way up to the Gran Turismo championship. Perhaps even winning it all). It was my unique idea of a "roster" of racers to work with. Do you think something like this could be done in GT5 and perhaps extend the deal Forza 2 started?
- 29,984
- Cuddington, Cheshire
- JDA1982
The problem John is that in a race, irl, if you spin, you wait until it's clear before you try to turn around and get going again. I've done a lot of races in RD3 and almost every time when I've been hit and though "damned AI" and watched the replay, it's been my fault for me crossing into their path, me not sticking to a line round a corner etc. I rarely see the AI changing thier lines into me. You can think your passed them and pull across the track, if you clip them with your rear wing it will spin you, but it's not the AI's fault.
Now, in GT4, I get hit by the AI pulling across the track into me, and not sticking to a line in the corners when your abreast with them. They're like drones in GT4, they are much, much better in RD3. If you drive clean and safe in RD3 you won't ge t much more than the odd rub and that's only inthe tin tops. A casula racing style in RD3 will probably result in a lot of cotact, because you might not realise how much your driving is sending you off line, I'm not talking about the racing line here, I'm talking about lines in the track you use when your in a pack. When your racing in a pack you have to be aware that there's a car to your left so you cannot attempt to occupy that space even if it's on the racing line, and there's a car on your right as well. So your apporaching a corner, between two cars, you need to keep your line in between thoes cars, drifinting wide, or trying to take the racing line in the corner will both result in contact. That's how it should be, as long as the AI sticks to it's line as well. GT4's doesn't.
Now, in GT4, I get hit by the AI pulling across the track into me, and not sticking to a line in the corners when your abreast with them. They're like drones in GT4, they are much, much better in RD3. If you drive clean and safe in RD3 you won't ge t much more than the odd rub and that's only inthe tin tops. A casula racing style in RD3 will probably result in a lot of cotact, because you might not realise how much your driving is sending you off line, I'm not talking about the racing line here, I'm talking about lines in the track you use when your in a pack. When your racing in a pack you have to be aware that there's a car to your left so you cannot attempt to occupy that space even if it's on the racing line, and there's a car on your right as well. So your apporaching a corner, between two cars, you need to keep your line in between thoes cars, drifinting wide, or trying to take the racing line in the corner will both result in contact. That's how it should be, as long as the AI sticks to it's line as well. GT4's doesn't.
McLaren
Premium
- 45,462
- Texas
And that's about all it has going for it. Awareness. That doesn't mean though it's actually learning squat. The only thing I see them learning is braking at multiple points. Certain ones like to brake early (mostly when I'm behind), and some like to brake late and pull off a near impossible corner.
The only thing I suspect of the AI having awareness is because each one is given different intelligence. Everyone knows 1 driver drives aggressive, 1 is a little slow, and the rest vary. I believe that's the only reason the AI is so "aware". They all have different coding into them, yet they all drive the same way they have before, just on different courses.
The only thing I suspect of the AI having awareness is because each one is given different intelligence. Everyone knows 1 driver drives aggressive, 1 is a little slow, and the rest vary. I believe that's the only reason the AI is so "aware". They all have different coding into them, yet they all drive the same way they have before, just on different courses.
As said the AI learn for you and the way you race, yes they can be aggressive and yes they do seem to not be able to tell when you are right next to them but apart from some small flaws they do actually give you a race and put up a fight rather than the dumb as mud bots in GT4. And I know the limitations of hardware keeps popping up but enthusia proved that fairly good AI can be done on the PS2 so there should be no problems nowadays.
Each racer has a confidence imo and they know how you will react to them also, I have seen many times a driver dive inside me because I will not shut the door on them but rather take them on the next few corners plus I have noticed drivers pulling to the outside out of corners when I'm approaching for a pass as they seem to have gotten use to this method of me passing.
Each racer has a confidence imo and they know how you will react to them also, I have seen many times a driver dive inside me because I will not shut the door on them but rather take them on the next few corners plus I have noticed drivers pulling to the outside out of corners when I'm approaching for a pass as they seem to have gotten use to this method of me passing.
- 29,984
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- JDA1982
I did a little experiment a few weeks back to test Forza 2's "learning" AI. It wasn't scientific by any means, it was just to see it chenge myself on a noticable level.
I started a race and the first thing I did was swerve into the car to my right, I restarted and reeated a couple of time, then about the 4th time the car on my right swerved into me as I tried to swerve into him. It was rossi btw, but because the AI had learned that I was agressive to a notable degree, the agressive AI bots became more agressive towards me, while the passive Ai bots stayed well away from me.
I started a race and the first thing I did was swerve into the car to my right, I restarted and reeated a couple of time, then about the 4th time the car on my right swerved into me as I tried to swerve into him. It was rossi btw, but because the AI had learned that I was agressive to a notable degree, the agressive AI bots became more agressive towards me, while the passive Ai bots stayed well away from me.
McLaren
Premium
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- Texas
See, dirty racing is the only thing I've ever seen the AI learn, and I don't race dirty. I guarantee you this learning is due to each driver having different coding. I wouldn't be surprised if you put Rossi's coding into the other 6, they'd all act the same. It's something PD should adopt though.
- 29,984
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- JDA1982
Thats not right though, some of the cars got more agressive as I did, others got more passive and avoided me more. So they did learn to be more passive. The problem is, the passive drivers are all at the back of the grid, the faster drivers like M Rossi and the other fella who's not far off Rossi's equal, are both more agressive drivers, so when they're driving passively it's not really passive. But the drivers who have a more passive nature do a lot to avoid contact, you just can't be racing with thoes drivers and be winning, because they're never near the front once the lights go green.
- 26,829
- Houston, Texas, USA
- JMarine25
Yeah, but if I'm there, I at least want to know that the other drivers saw my car sideways and doggone near the tire wall. Another aspect of my style is that I immediately try to get back on the track after a spiin or a near-miss with a barrier. Think about boxing. Do you lay down on the mat and simply give up after the other boxer damn near caves your face in? No. What you do is that you muster as much energy as possible to get up. Then, you stand on both feet and hand the other boxer some punishment. You never back down for an extended period of time. It's not smart for a racing perspective, but that's just me. I don't want to go way to the back and hand somebody a win that I've perfectly tried to earn. And especially not in the closing stages of a race. I'm all about ambition and heart. Also momentum. I don't want to be punished for not driving like a pro. I want to have my own style and have my would-be rivals respect it.
So you actually admit that it's been your fault for crossing their path? Is this reverse psychology on AI racers? Most people complain of AI racers being stuck to a certain racing line while a human racer is responsible for passing them successfully. This model you bring up is that YOU are supposed to be the one stuck to the racing line while the AI tries to pass YOU. Is that what you're mentioning, Dave A? If so, then that's doggone weird and unusual. I think there should be clean passes and the aforementioned AI awareness. I believe in competitive racing. Maybe do some side-swiping. Just don't knock somebody off the road (and I'm talking about the AI drivers). I want to be the one to have the best chance to win the race by the end of the day. I don't want to be "let's get rid of this guy/girl and race to win without him/her." It's a foul racing deal no matter how you look at it. I have my own style. Just don't introduce me to your driving style by disabling my race car. And if need be, I'd be more than kind to deliver a tap to your rear wheels in saying "NOW try and pass me!", or "now we're even." It's the attitude I've shown in a number of racing games when I keep being pushed around like I haven't earned my way up to a certain level of racing. Some of you defend the ToCA Race Driver AI, but I don't. I drive as best as I can even if I try to recover from spinning out. Least that could be done is acknowledge that I'm here and need help. Perhaps even throw a REAL local yellow flag at a certain sector. The best example of great racing from games I've played is likely rFactor (not that I've analyzed GTR fully). I rarely been tagged after recovering from a spin or not driving all that well. What I'd like best is better recognition from enemy racers.
Another component regarding care behavior against AI racers is that of a game's physics engine. Proper physics of a car in a game usually mean you're guaranteed to spin if front tires meet up with the rear tires of another car. Trying to recover from a spin can be very difficult. I even remember in GT2 when I was racing a TommyKaira ZZ-2 at the Apricot Hill endurance as some car spun out. I had to adjust and try to pass the spun car successfully. He didn't try to tag me or knock me off the road. It was a clean pass that I could recall. I've been running rounds around Eiger Nordwand with assists off. If this physics model for GTHD carry into GT5, cars may be a bit more realistic in terms of collisions, which carries over into potentially tougher ways to escape from a spin. So this could be a contributing factor as to how AI plays out in GT5.
This has basically turned into an AI discussion, so I wanted to get that out of the way and get back to some GT vs. Forza tidbits in future posts.
So you actually admit that it's been your fault for crossing their path? Is this reverse psychology on AI racers? Most people complain of AI racers being stuck to a certain racing line while a human racer is responsible for passing them successfully. This model you bring up is that YOU are supposed to be the one stuck to the racing line while the AI tries to pass YOU. Is that what you're mentioning, Dave A? If so, then that's doggone weird and unusual. I think there should be clean passes and the aforementioned AI awareness. I believe in competitive racing. Maybe do some side-swiping. Just don't knock somebody off the road (and I'm talking about the AI drivers). I want to be the one to have the best chance to win the race by the end of the day. I don't want to be "let's get rid of this guy/girl and race to win without him/her." It's a foul racing deal no matter how you look at it. I have my own style. Just don't introduce me to your driving style by disabling my race car. And if need be, I'd be more than kind to deliver a tap to your rear wheels in saying "NOW try and pass me!", or "now we're even." It's the attitude I've shown in a number of racing games when I keep being pushed around like I haven't earned my way up to a certain level of racing. Some of you defend the ToCA Race Driver AI, but I don't. I drive as best as I can even if I try to recover from spinning out. Least that could be done is acknowledge that I'm here and need help. Perhaps even throw a REAL local yellow flag at a certain sector. The best example of great racing from games I've played is likely rFactor (not that I've analyzed GTR fully). I rarely been tagged after recovering from a spin or not driving all that well. What I'd like best is better recognition from enemy racers.
Another component regarding care behavior against AI racers is that of a game's physics engine. Proper physics of a car in a game usually mean you're guaranteed to spin if front tires meet up with the rear tires of another car. Trying to recover from a spin can be very difficult. I even remember in GT2 when I was racing a TommyKaira ZZ-2 at the Apricot Hill endurance as some car spun out. I had to adjust and try to pass the spun car successfully. He didn't try to tag me or knock me off the road. It was a clean pass that I could recall. I've been running rounds around Eiger Nordwand with assists off. If this physics model for GTHD carry into GT5, cars may be a bit more realistic in terms of collisions, which carries over into potentially tougher ways to escape from a spin. So this could be a contributing factor as to how AI plays out in GT5.
This has basically turned into an AI discussion, so I wanted to get that out of the way and get back to some GT vs. Forza tidbits in future posts.
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- The_Ske
- PzR Ske
Comparing forza 2 to GT4 is foolish, very foolish.
People compare forza1 to GT4 because it is the most recent situation where both developers were on a level playing field, i.e. Similar release times and similar consoles. We won't be able to compare Forza 2 till we see GT5 then it will be a case of similar consoles.💡
Actually, I don't think it's foolish... GT4 can still give Forza 2 a run for it's money (Apparently Turn 10 had a couple too many at the staff meetings
), especially in the feedback, track surface and mass handling departments... not to mention logitech vs MS as official wheel suppliers...Anyway, I've never played FM1 so I'm not gonna argue with the points against it... I just think that arguing for and against a game that already has been replaced is pointless ...the least you can do is use the latest version as comparison. It's quite easy to ignore the next gen advantages in this case, as they're kinda limited to graphics and sound.
Rossi's the one that keep pressuring me as well, seems there's some kinda "personality" to the AI oppnents in fm2.. which I like the concept of. Note that they don't just ram me at full throttle like in GT, it's more of an aggressive attack in corners to try and "steal" my line or force me off it.... some slight body contact, but it's always side to side and not end to end. They're usually hopelessly slow through corners, though...
Quiet_Storm
(Banned)
- 495
- xQuietStormx
- xDANOMITEx
If you guys want to test out the AI in Forza 2. I found this out on accident and was very disappointed. Hopefully it's not just on my copy but I'm sure it's the same across the board. Ok....
Pick the lower ranked racers and "hire" them to race for you. Now pick that one event where you race on New York reverse and watch your hired driver hit the same damn corner over and over again. It's that really tight double apex after the long straight away. This proves that they don't really learn from their mistakes.
Don't misunderstand me, I'm not bashing Forza 2 in any way, shape or form. I'm simply pointing out the fact that Forza 2's AI isn't as advanced as we (including myself) all thought. Also, try and stop right in the middle of the track. They'll slow down but they'll keep on ramming into you but none has the sense to throw it in reverse and go around? lol
Pick the lower ranked racers and "hire" them to race for you. Now pick that one event where you race on New York reverse and watch your hired driver hit the same damn corner over and over again. It's that really tight double apex after the long straight away. This proves that they don't really learn from their mistakes.
Don't misunderstand me, I'm not bashing Forza 2 in any way, shape or form. I'm simply pointing out the fact that Forza 2's AI isn't as advanced as we (including myself) all thought. Also, try and stop right in the middle of the track. They'll slow down but they'll keep on ramming into you but none has the sense to throw it in reverse and go around? lol
Quiet try that in the higher level races, the AI especially the Japanese sounding driver is actually pretty good to hire from what I've heard and is very reliable. I'm not going to deny FM2's AI has it's dumb moments, it does but then GT4 did hit the guardrail at Nurburgring every bloody time also! Even the pace car did it. lol
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- 1,258
- NY, NY
- GTP_shawtyoner
- shawtyoner
As far as I'm concerned, FM2 has the better AI over GT4, GT3 and FM1, never played Enthusia so i can't comment on that. Granted it's not perfect and i honestly don't think any game will ever get anything perfect, its still pretty damn good for what it is. I haven't been more involved in an offline race than i have playing FM2, playing the factory spec races are great fun and a real challenge against the AI in my opinion. Whatever the case, PD cannot afford to blow this issue in GT5, just imagine how fun it will be racing against 15 cars with the same mentality as the AI in GT4, i would kill myself!
- 29,984
- Cuddington, Cheshire
- JDA1982
But if you don't wait for cars to pass when your pulling back onto the track, you can't complain that they hit you when you pull back right infront of them.
But that's never going to happen, do you think in a real race a driver should behaive like he's the only one on the track and that the other drivers should respect that? If you drive like that in a real race, you'll lose a lot of respect from your fellow racers, and should the way your driving be deemed dangrous, deducted points and ultimately disqualified. I'm not trying to deny you from having your style, but I'm jsut saying that it's unreasonable to drive without care of the other cars and then complain when the inevitable happens.
Yes, when I cross into an AI cars path and there's conrtact it is 100% my fault. It isn't bad AI programming.
No, not at all. What I'm saying is that the AI cars should drive like that, that means the AI will not be changing lines into you round corners like GT4's does to me all the time, orusing the racing line when your infront and on it as well. That leaves it upto the player to drive either, like the AI and not trying to occupy thier space as they don't yours or drive like your the only one on the track, in which case the vast majority of inevitable contact will no doubt be the players fault. Neither should attempt to occupy the others space. There's a big difference between wanting AI that can hold it's line when it's abreast of other cars and wanting AI that's a mindless drone an a continous loop around the track.
Exactley, and to be competetive you need to be fair, you can't expect the AI cars to back off you and let you occupy thier space. The AI don't do that to you in RD3, and the races can be extremely competetive. You can race just fine without getting spun once, as long as your aware of the other cars around you. Let me put it this way, how your driving against the AI in RD3, is that how you would drive against real people, cutting them up and trying to occupy their space? Because from experience, people who use lines like thier the only car on the track and they are entitled to use whatever line they want to at all times, even if there's another car there, get booted from gaming sessions quite quickly. Ofcourse, even if your good at a game you'll make the odd mistake, but that's not the same as a frequent habbit. I just dissagree with you on this RD3 AI thing
.Then set the difficulty so that you can win, all you need to do in RD3 is remember that theres cars around you and drive accordingly.
GTR's AI is imo very passive, but again, even in GTR or RFactor, if you pull aross right infront of an opponents car there will be contact. The consequences of that contact varies in thoes games though, I personally think that RD3 simulatess the consequences of contact far better than GTR and RFactor, even though GTR and RFactor are much more realistic games when it comes to driving the cars. I like racing game to give you the same pressures as real racing would, or at least attempt to. GTR and RFactor do very well, overall better than RD3. But RD3 does better in some ways imo.
Ofcourse, the more realistic the physics the better and more natural it will hopefully feel to be driving under any circumstance, loss of control included. It will feel right.
Anyhow, as you said, let's just agree to dissagree on the RD3 AI, I love it, you don't. We don't agree on the why's perhaps, but it's not that important at the end of the day
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- 1,391
- GTP_GTXLR
- gtxlr
Dave,, there are those of us who are racers and there are those who are gamers.
Racers know that you cant charge into any little space, and get away with it, in the real world you would likely be lynched if you drive dangerously, And why should they give you any ground, after all they want to win too.
In racing more often than not you will have to back out of a move,as the guy in front defends or you find simply dont have the track to pull off the move succesfully, this is where strategy comes into play, you have to learn where your faster than your opponent, then hang back slightly and punish your opponents weaknesses, late braking manouvers into turns are always the most risky of passes, and you need to be sure of you and the cars abilty to pull off out braking passes as they are most likely to end in tears. Most real world tracks have only 2 or 3 ligitimate passing places, other passing opportunities come from errors from your opponents,simply being fast at a certain point ofthe track doesnt mean that its a viable passing place.
Those that are not r/l track experienced or have no interest in the realism of racing etiquettes do not appreciate this, in r/l it takes great skill to be a winner and requires great race craft, gamers want to win, Yes they want to beat fast AI, but most dont have the skill or race craft to do it without making moves that would never pay off in r/l.
And many would be bored by AI that was so good they would find it difficult to keep up.
Racers know that you cant charge into any little space, and get away with it, in the real world you would likely be lynched if you drive dangerously, And why should they give you any ground, after all they want to win too.
In racing more often than not you will have to back out of a move,as the guy in front defends or you find simply dont have the track to pull off the move succesfully, this is where strategy comes into play, you have to learn where your faster than your opponent, then hang back slightly and punish your opponents weaknesses, late braking manouvers into turns are always the most risky of passes, and you need to be sure of you and the cars abilty to pull off out braking passes as they are most likely to end in tears. Most real world tracks have only 2 or 3 ligitimate passing places, other passing opportunities come from errors from your opponents,simply being fast at a certain point ofthe track doesnt mean that its a viable passing place.
Those that are not r/l track experienced or have no interest in the realism of racing etiquettes do not appreciate this, in r/l it takes great skill to be a winner and requires great race craft, gamers want to win, Yes they want to beat fast AI, but most dont have the skill or race craft to do it without making moves that would never pay off in r/l.
And many would be bored by AI that was so good they would find it difficult to keep up.
Scaff
Moderator
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- ScaffUK
John, think about it this way. If you were racing against other people on-line an someone did that to you, how would you feel about them?
I have to agree with Dave A on this one, TRD3 has an excellent AI, and would concur that anytime I have been forced off the track its been my own fault. Principally because I failed to notice the other car, and often it not a case of the AI not trying to get out of the way, rather with a large grid and busy track it simply does not have the time or room to do so.
What I also like about the AI in TRD3 is that it changes depending on the series, with open wheel events being much more cautious but tin-tops (and the Aussie V8 supercars is a good example) containing a lot more aggressive driving. However I have never once been of the opinion that it doesn't play fair. Hell its a good job they don't model the AI on the BTCC, now that would be nasty, those boys (and girl) play rough.
Regards
Scaff
- 6,009
- Austin, Texas
- D-Nitrate / GTP_DNitrate
+REP 👍After close to a thousand posts in this thread, and the hundreds of thousands of posts that have been made over the last 10 years about the AI from all sorts of different driving games, one thing is absolutely true, and that as a group dynamic, there is no such thing as one AI being better than another because so much of it completely depends on the preference of each player.
Some people like AI that is extremely consistent, others prefer AI that is inconsistent, others prefer arcade style rubber-band AI, others prefer passive AI, other prefer aggressive AI, others prefer AI that has a "personality", others prefer AI that has multiple "personalities", and so on, and so on, and so on...
So when some people claim GT3's AI is better, and others claim GT4's AI is better, and others claim LFS's AI is better, and others claim F2's AI is better, and soon we will likely hear others claim GT5's AI is better, and others claiming PGR4's is better. Guess what?... they are all correct!
"Judging" and comparing AI is almost entirely a subjective thing, and thus mostly only impacts players at an individual level, and debating which AI is better among a huge group of individuals with their own personal preferences is mostly a lost cause.
The only time I would be willing to declare one game's AI as being significantly better than another game's AI is if a game allows each player to truly customize the AI for the desired effect for that specific occasion.
For instance, when a game comes out where the player has the ability to adjust the AI level and choose what type of AI they want for a race, like an AI that is consistent, or one that is inconsistent, or one that has arcade style rubber-band, or one that is passive, or one that is aggressive, or one with a "personality", or one with multiple "personalities", and so on, and so on, and so on... I will personally go out on a limb and declare it, and only it as having the very best AI of any other game out there, assuming no other game also doesn't offer the same wide variety of AI settings to choose from.
What gamers really need are choices and options that support their individual preferences, and to have games that offer enough variety and options that in case you change your mind on what style of AI you like, or maybe you like to change it up from one day/week to another, that game will allow you to do that! In this day and age, a game should be advanced enough to give players these types of options.
It's not just AI either. Driving games like GT and Forza should be giving players options on a lot of different criteria, like crash damage, mechanical damage, racing penalties, pit stop action/control, weather, time of day, etc, and frankly in time these games really should offer multiple settings within each of these and many other types of game settings such that each gamer and group of online racers in a league, can adjust the game to match their specific wants/needs much more closely than what games have offered in that past, and still today.
Until games offer a wide variety of finely tuned gameplay options, there will always be heated debates on which is better, and much of it will always remain largely based on subjective opinion, thus there will never be a true agreed upon "winner".
OK... I've gone way over my $.02 limit.
- 6,062
- Simcoeace
One of the biggest problems IMO with game racing is the lack of peripheral vision. This makes racing neck-to-neck, either with AI or human opponents much more difficult as it's very difficult to make fine judgements as to your position with regard to the cars around you.
- 26,829
- Houston, Texas, USA
- JMarine25
Well, I always consider myself half-gamer, half-pure racer. It's why I'm not easily excited at times about making Gran Turismo into a hardcore racing sim. I still have that "just play" in me. It's unique to my tastes in racing games. On the end of racing AI in regards to ToCA Race Driver 3... I've just stated my opinions and don't feel that I'm getting any sort of agreement about ToCA RD 3's AI. Regardless of my views vs. others, I still highly respect Dave A and Scaff.
--- GT vs. Forza: Cars and Bias ---
***CARS*** Let me talk about Forza and GT in regards of cars as well as bias. One of my key complaints about Forza as far as what people say is that they let Ferrari and Porsche be the weapon towards why Forza is better than the Gran Turismo series. If you ask me, Forza's approach is a bit American opposed to the kind of Japanese approach of Gran Turismo. Some would say that Forza crushes GT in the department of cars. GTP's YSSMAN noted that it was groundbreaking to feature Gran Turismo-style play with Ferraris and Porsches. That was in my one-year lookback on Forza. But as of last year, GT will put Forza to the test because they notched up a deal with Ferrari. I was real surprised the day Ferrari will debut for Gran Turismo. It was a bit coming because GT4 got Bentley. Then Tourist Trophy got Ducati and Aprilia. PD CAN (and probably will) get the big-name companies, as if they don't have some prior to Ferrari. The inclusion of Ferrari in both game series mean that it will likely come down to driving experience. Will driving a Ferrari in GT5 be as enjoyable as racing a Ferrari in the Forza series?
As some racing game fans fail to realize, there are other car companies in games besides the aforementioned big-name companies. Some of the worst performers stilll need to be as good to drive in addition to racing the bigger cars. Gran Turismo tries to look for a lot of cars from a world of companies. Over 700 cars were in GT4. Then, maybe 300 or so in Forza 2. Here's something else some people fail to realize- you don't have to drive or own all 700 cars. This just means that you have as many cars from as many companies to maybe find your favorite. Some of them are simply variations of certain cars. The Forza series has far less Skylines than GT4. GT4 debuted South Korea, Sweden, the Netherlands, and Spain. Forza has themselves a decent variety of cars ranging from daily driving economy cars to the most supreme of sports cars and competition cars. GT4 has the same sort of variety, though most will dislike the Kei cars. Which leads me to...
*** BIAS *** Bias is one of my least favorite topics in regards to cars and tracks and such. Think about it like this. Codemasters' racing games usually has bias towards the United Kingdom since Codemasters is a British group. Forza has a good deal of American bias with a lot of American cars with some sick sounds. Polypohny Digital is based in my favorite city in the world- Tokyo, Japan. You have a lot of Japanese cars as well as some Kei cars. I'm going to make a little demonstration here. Person "A" is an American racing gamer, Person "B" is a racing gamer from the United Kingdom (not necessarily England), and Person "J" is a Japanese racing gamer. All three love their racing games. But when asked about certain features of Forza and GT, their reactions differ. Person "I" is an interviewer asking these three about some of the different bias-related themes. These three hypothetical gamers are not intended to resemble anyone here on GTPlanet or on another message board. Check it out:
I: What do you make of Kei cars?
A: "I hate them. They are terrible. Nobody cares about these stupid... toys.
B: "Japan has some pretty nice superminis, but we certainly do have our own potent Minis.
J: "Kei cars can be very fun. I don't see why others don't at least like them."
I: What do you make of American muscle cars like in Forza?
A: "I love American cars. I don't care about anything European or Japanese or even Australian. All about my muscle. Maybe PD should look at Forza and stop pretending they know muscle cars."
B: (positive) "While I'm not really a muscle car-type person, they are quite as amazing as my own European cars." (negative) "Muscle cars are terrible. No handling, no style, no go."
J: (positive) "I do like muscle cars. They may not be all popular here in Japan, but they are pretty cool to race." (negative) "Muscle cars are good, but I'm more accustomed to my own Japanese sports cars."
I: What do you think about the majority of tracks should be featured?
A: "Anywhere but Japan. Japan thinks the world revolves around them. Hey, PD! How about more American venues? Hell, I'd even race more events in Europe... so I can hammer them with my American cars."
B: "The automobile was born in Europe and so was motor racing. Why not a broader European focus? Enthusia did pretty well. Why not you guys, PD?"
J: "Japan is a beautiful place. We have some challenging tracks here with the crown jewel being Suzuka. However, I'm still game enough to race anywhere against any competition Hell... I'll even race in Antartica!"
I: What should be the balance of cars for both GT and Forza?
A: "As long as American cars are featured, I'm happy. I'm okay racing other cars from other countries, but I still want a strong prescence of my own American cars. There should also be a healthy balance of European cars as well. Just don't dominate it with Japanese to the point where they have more cars than our own American cars combined."
B: "I like both American and Japanese autos. I'd still like to see a good number of European cars. Our cars and car companies have a great deal of history in automobiles as well as in racing. I'd love to see European cars a bit better represented."
J: "American car fans aren't going to like seeing or being able to race Kei cars. Kei cars for Japan are like most compacts in America. Not the most powerful of cars, but they are our true compacts whether others like them or not. Don't like them? Don't race them. Understandably, I'm okay with my country's cars. Most of our sportscars aren't dominating. However, they can be upset-minded machines against the best of American and European cars when nicely tuned. Wish we were a bit more represented in Forza. Maybe Japan will like the XBOX better if we get a little more representation in Forza."
What I'm trying to get to with these makeshift examples is that the issue of bias can really determine if a game can be more enjoyable when there isn't too much focus on one specific nationality. Think of the ToCA Race Driver series with the American series. You don't see foam turn-markers on American ovals. But still, that's the way a number of European tracks are. They have the European style of tracks and racing rules with Codemasters racing games. Majority of Codemasters track locations are in Europe, much less the United Kingdom. * Now look at Forza. Forza has mostly American influence. This ranges from all the different American tracks and even vehicles from the Speed World Challenge series. You may even recall that "Forza Motorsport Showdown" on the Speed Channel. Most of us Americans liked that this was basically a GT-style game mostly biased on us. Even features some of Europe's best sports cars and racing cars. I've heard few complaints with this formula for Forza here in the States. * Gran Turismo is a Japanese-made game understandably mostly about Japan. Comments range from "I don't mind Japan" to "can't we race and drive in cars other than Japanese?" People will play the nationality card to incredulous levels. Gran Turismo is no different. I love Japan and love being involved with Japan. I'm okay with this. Some of my American peers would think otherwise. I do think seeing the world from cars and tracks is always a beautiful thing. GT does a pretty good job without being too much of its native Japan (many will disagree with me). My own Americans would want deeper American involvement especially with better-sounding American muscle. I guess some Euro types aren't as picky with Japan and Europe items in GT games. I still think an even balance works great. You can't make 100% using three variables. So if you want to play by percentages, cars and tracks from America and Europe both would make up 33% or less while Japan would be the 34%. Countries and continents besides the aforementioned locales would comprise a somewhat smaller percentage. I'm talking about races and cars from places like Australia, Malaysia, China (imagine the uproar of Chinese cars in GT5), the Korea Republic and stuff like that.
What do you think about GT vs. Forza in regards to either/both cars and/or bias?
--- GT vs. Forza: Cars and Bias ---
***CARS*** Let me talk about Forza and GT in regards of cars as well as bias. One of my key complaints about Forza as far as what people say is that they let Ferrari and Porsche be the weapon towards why Forza is better than the Gran Turismo series. If you ask me, Forza's approach is a bit American opposed to the kind of Japanese approach of Gran Turismo. Some would say that Forza crushes GT in the department of cars. GTP's YSSMAN noted that it was groundbreaking to feature Gran Turismo-style play with Ferraris and Porsches. That was in my one-year lookback on Forza. But as of last year, GT will put Forza to the test because they notched up a deal with Ferrari. I was real surprised the day Ferrari will debut for Gran Turismo. It was a bit coming because GT4 got Bentley. Then Tourist Trophy got Ducati and Aprilia. PD CAN (and probably will) get the big-name companies, as if they don't have some prior to Ferrari. The inclusion of Ferrari in both game series mean that it will likely come down to driving experience. Will driving a Ferrari in GT5 be as enjoyable as racing a Ferrari in the Forza series?
As some racing game fans fail to realize, there are other car companies in games besides the aforementioned big-name companies. Some of the worst performers stilll need to be as good to drive in addition to racing the bigger cars. Gran Turismo tries to look for a lot of cars from a world of companies. Over 700 cars were in GT4. Then, maybe 300 or so in Forza 2. Here's something else some people fail to realize- you don't have to drive or own all 700 cars. This just means that you have as many cars from as many companies to maybe find your favorite. Some of them are simply variations of certain cars. The Forza series has far less Skylines than GT4. GT4 debuted South Korea, Sweden, the Netherlands, and Spain. Forza has themselves a decent variety of cars ranging from daily driving economy cars to the most supreme of sports cars and competition cars. GT4 has the same sort of variety, though most will dislike the Kei cars. Which leads me to...
*** BIAS *** Bias is one of my least favorite topics in regards to cars and tracks and such. Think about it like this. Codemasters' racing games usually has bias towards the United Kingdom since Codemasters is a British group. Forza has a good deal of American bias with a lot of American cars with some sick sounds. Polypohny Digital is based in my favorite city in the world- Tokyo, Japan. You have a lot of Japanese cars as well as some Kei cars. I'm going to make a little demonstration here. Person "A" is an American racing gamer, Person "B" is a racing gamer from the United Kingdom (not necessarily England), and Person "J" is a Japanese racing gamer. All three love their racing games. But when asked about certain features of Forza and GT, their reactions differ. Person "I" is an interviewer asking these three about some of the different bias-related themes. These three hypothetical gamers are not intended to resemble anyone here on GTPlanet or on another message board. Check it out:
I: What do you make of Kei cars?
A: "I hate them. They are terrible. Nobody cares about these stupid... toys.
B: "Japan has some pretty nice superminis, but we certainly do have our own potent Minis.
J: "Kei cars can be very fun. I don't see why others don't at least like them."
I: What do you make of American muscle cars like in Forza?
A: "I love American cars. I don't care about anything European or Japanese or even Australian. All about my muscle. Maybe PD should look at Forza and stop pretending they know muscle cars."
B: (positive) "While I'm not really a muscle car-type person, they are quite as amazing as my own European cars." (negative) "Muscle cars are terrible. No handling, no style, no go."
J: (positive) "I do like muscle cars. They may not be all popular here in Japan, but they are pretty cool to race." (negative) "Muscle cars are good, but I'm more accustomed to my own Japanese sports cars."
I: What do you think about the majority of tracks should be featured?
A: "Anywhere but Japan. Japan thinks the world revolves around them. Hey, PD! How about more American venues? Hell, I'd even race more events in Europe... so I can hammer them with my American cars."
B: "The automobile was born in Europe and so was motor racing. Why not a broader European focus? Enthusia did pretty well. Why not you guys, PD?"
J: "Japan is a beautiful place. We have some challenging tracks here with the crown jewel being Suzuka. However, I'm still game enough to race anywhere against any competition Hell... I'll even race in Antartica!"
I: What should be the balance of cars for both GT and Forza?
A: "As long as American cars are featured, I'm happy. I'm okay racing other cars from other countries, but I still want a strong prescence of my own American cars. There should also be a healthy balance of European cars as well. Just don't dominate it with Japanese to the point where they have more cars than our own American cars combined."
B: "I like both American and Japanese autos. I'd still like to see a good number of European cars. Our cars and car companies have a great deal of history in automobiles as well as in racing. I'd love to see European cars a bit better represented."
J: "American car fans aren't going to like seeing or being able to race Kei cars. Kei cars for Japan are like most compacts in America. Not the most powerful of cars, but they are our true compacts whether others like them or not. Don't like them? Don't race them. Understandably, I'm okay with my country's cars. Most of our sportscars aren't dominating. However, they can be upset-minded machines against the best of American and European cars when nicely tuned. Wish we were a bit more represented in Forza. Maybe Japan will like the XBOX better if we get a little more representation in Forza."
What I'm trying to get to with these makeshift examples is that the issue of bias can really determine if a game can be more enjoyable when there isn't too much focus on one specific nationality. Think of the ToCA Race Driver series with the American series. You don't see foam turn-markers on American ovals. But still, that's the way a number of European tracks are. They have the European style of tracks and racing rules with Codemasters racing games. Majority of Codemasters track locations are in Europe, much less the United Kingdom. * Now look at Forza. Forza has mostly American influence. This ranges from all the different American tracks and even vehicles from the Speed World Challenge series. You may even recall that "Forza Motorsport Showdown" on the Speed Channel. Most of us Americans liked that this was basically a GT-style game mostly biased on us. Even features some of Europe's best sports cars and racing cars. I've heard few complaints with this formula for Forza here in the States. * Gran Turismo is a Japanese-made game understandably mostly about Japan. Comments range from "I don't mind Japan" to "can't we race and drive in cars other than Japanese?" People will play the nationality card to incredulous levels. Gran Turismo is no different. I love Japan and love being involved with Japan. I'm okay with this. Some of my American peers would think otherwise. I do think seeing the world from cars and tracks is always a beautiful thing. GT does a pretty good job without being too much of its native Japan (many will disagree with me). My own Americans would want deeper American involvement especially with better-sounding American muscle. I guess some Euro types aren't as picky with Japan and Europe items in GT games. I still think an even balance works great. You can't make 100% using three variables. So if you want to play by percentages, cars and tracks from America and Europe both would make up 33% or less while Japan would be the 34%. Countries and continents besides the aforementioned locales would comprise a somewhat smaller percentage. I'm talking about races and cars from places like Australia, Malaysia, China (imagine the uproar of Chinese cars in GT5), the Korea Republic and stuff like that.
What do you think about GT vs. Forza in regards to either/both cars and/or bias?
- 22
You exaggerated the American guy quite a bit.
The Vanishing Boy
Premium
- 9,000
- Quezon City, Philippines & Las Vegas, NV
- GTP_VanishingBoy
- Vanishing Boy
John-> I like to back up on what you've said on the previous post:
--- GT vs. Forza: Cars and Bias ---
***CARS*** If you ask me although its still lacking some. I think GT has the perfect balance of cars of all console racers. I love the way how diverse the the cars are. Its the first driving game the featured cars that most people are not aware of, Skylines, Kei-cars, and countries that were not featured before.
*** BIAS *** I'm not really biased on any car that these games are offering as of now. I just like to have more cars in GT, just look on my wish list! I've made a parody of Johns 'interview with a reporter' scenario:
I: What do you make of Kei cars?
VB: Although most people dispises them, I like to see them in GT. These cars offer the best learning curve on a racetrack. And I like when it teaches you for being patient of pushing these 'slow' cars around the big Nurb.
I: What do you make of American muscle cars like in Forza?
VB: I do like the variety of muscle cars, they represent the American way of the automotive lifestyle. I have no grudges on them for being wallowing boats.
I: What do you think about the majority of tracks should be featured?
VB: I do understand that implementing race tracks is a very daunting task. So far I like the variety and accuracy on what GT is offering. Sure I would like more from Asia, Australia, and Europe, but they can take their time on that one.
I: What should be the balance of cars for both GT and Forza?
VB: The more the merrier, I should say. But seriously, Forza kinda left out some special or should I say more daily driver cars. As far as I see on this, Forza has a good amount of cars that are 300hp and up. And on GT is the other way around, but PD overlooked some cars like the Pontiac Trans Am WS6 (US), Mitsubishi Eclipse GSX (JP), Honda Civic SiR (AS) sedan and the legendary BMW [E30] M3 (EU).
--- GT vs. Forza: Cars and Bias ---
***CARS*** If you ask me although its still lacking some. I think GT has the perfect balance of cars of all console racers. I love the way how diverse the the cars are. Its the first driving game the featured cars that most people are not aware of, Skylines, Kei-cars, and countries that were not featured before.
*** BIAS *** I'm not really biased on any car that these games are offering as of now. I just like to have more cars in GT, just look on my wish list! I've made a parody of Johns 'interview with a reporter' scenario:
I: What do you make of Kei cars?
VB: Although most people dispises them, I like to see them in GT. These cars offer the best learning curve on a racetrack. And I like when it teaches you for being patient of pushing these 'slow' cars around the big Nurb.
I: What do you make of American muscle cars like in Forza?
VB: I do like the variety of muscle cars, they represent the American way of the automotive lifestyle. I have no grudges on them for being wallowing boats.
I: What do you think about the majority of tracks should be featured?
VB: I do understand that implementing race tracks is a very daunting task. So far I like the variety and accuracy on what GT is offering. Sure I would like more from Asia, Australia, and Europe, but they can take their time on that one.
I: What should be the balance of cars for both GT and Forza?
VB: The more the merrier, I should say. But seriously, Forza kinda left out some special or should I say more daily driver cars. As far as I see on this, Forza has a good amount of cars that are 300hp and up. And on GT is the other way around, but PD overlooked some cars like the Pontiac Trans Am WS6 (US), Mitsubishi Eclipse GSX (JP), Honda Civic SiR (AS) sedan and the legendary BMW [E30] M3 (EU).
^ You might say that, but it is very true. Based on my longest experiece as a member here in GTP, John really hit the spot on that one. I'm not pointing out on people here, but there are quite a lot of these things bashing on Kei-cars especially coming from here in the US.AZ_Sidewinder
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