Do you think that GT is losing the battle against Forza?

[DARCwizard]

I don't think PD needs to do a lot of research to see where they can improve with GT5.
Everyone knows the AI sucks, even a small child knows you have to break and/or swerve to avoid hitting something on your way, as well as you can't overtake by hitting the back of the car in front, you have to go around the car, or even that if you're way too fast on a turn, the solution is not keep accelerating, amongst other issues.
AI should mean they have a certain (even minimal) degree of deciding what to do on each situation, GT cars don't even remotely do that, they're just programmed to do certain things and that's only what they do.

As far as graphics, I'm expecting A LOT from GT5, and have almost no doubts it will be far superior in realism at that level, compared to Forza 2.

On customization, it doesn't (imo) need much more than it already has, just a few changes (please, loose the task bar while fitting parts to a car) so that not every part is the same regardless of where you buy it would be enough to make me happy, and if it's going to have wings, please put something that doesn't ruin the car's looks, this is where they really slacked out on GT4 too.

As far as the thread title goes, as already said, you really can't compare both games (GT4 and Forza 2), only when GT5 comes out for PS3 will that comparison be valid, and I don't have the slightest doubt forza will be defeated badly, despite whatever things I may or may not like on GT5.

GT was always the game to beat, everyone else just tries to. On the same level, none has succeeded so far.

OK your right, it is the game to beat, and overall nobody has. Does that mean that PD should just keep doing what they are doing and have no improvement because they are already the best? Fact - other games do things in certain areas that are BETTER than PD and GT series. As a whole, not beaten, but there are ways that it could drastically improve, body customization is one. Graphics are a must obviously, but I don't think that taking out the task bar and updating part names is all they should do when they are being outdone in other areas....my opinion of course.

 

[Bram Turismo]

I'm still not agreeing that body customization is a way to improve a game. I'll use the NFS series as an example, you can customize cars in those games, but it's still an arcade racer. For those who want a decent race game, Enthusia and GT3 would be my choices. Yes, GT4 did a wonderfull job on the tracks and cars, but GT3's physics engine was so awesome, you can have hours of fun oversteering your Panoz Esperant GTR-1, try to do that in GT4 and your wheels will spin, but no oversteer will be there. That's why I'm leaning towards GT3 to compare to other games as well...

It's not all of adding different aspects and options, but to fine-tune every single detail included in your game, in GT4, everything was perfect, every single little detail, but instead of the oh so wonderfull GT3 physics, they used a dull new one which has experienced hardly any experimenting I think...

 

[DARCwizard]

I agree with you there. I am not trying to say that adding option (such as body customization) will improve the game, but it will make the experience more interactive is all. If the game has ****ty AI (which it does) that would make the game BETTER if it were fixed. My point is, when I played forza (for about 3 months) at which time I WAS addicted to it, I really liked all the things I could do to my car. I think that is a selling point just like any other options. Would the game still be good without it? Yes. Its just icing on the cake, but eventually, and in my opinion that time is now, serious customization of cars in simulation games (both visual and mechanical) is a must-include feature....

 

[Beerz]

Agree with Bram here, body costumization is not hte reason why I want GT5 to come out quickly.

Also, referring to post #961, that's not what I said.
What I said was that it has always been the game to beat, of course they should improve on every game, that's why I stated some of the things I'd like to see changed. There are others, those were just the first that came to mind.

 

[Dave A]

Imo customising the exterior of your car is a step GT must take for people to not drift to favoring Forza in general. As for body mods doing nothing but being visual, anyone with half an ounce of sense will tell you that isn't the case, race cars don't use the stock cars bodywork, why, because it's not as efficient at getting around the track as fast as possible as a car with bodywork adapted to benefit aerodynamically is. In terms of painting your car, then it's immersion as well as visual. How many races do you watch where you see a field of GT cars with plain single colour paint jobs racing round th e track. If I want to build a race car I want to build a race car, mechanically and visually. Forza lets me do that, Forza allows far more creativity han GT does and that is a big plus point in Forza's favour. Ofcours that's not all a game needs, Forza 2 offers a pretty decent physics engine, I hope GT5's is better but I also hope GT5 offers a much more extensive level of customisation both visually and mechanically. GT's customisation in the past has been very linear, I'd love to see it opened up, really opened up so that my highly tuned S2000 isn't exactley the same as your highly tuned S2000, both visually and mechanically.

 

[DARCwizard]

Agree with Bram here, body costumization is not hte reason why I want GT5 to come out quickly.

Also, referring to post #961, that's not what I said.
What I said was that it has always been the game to beat, of course they should improve on every game, that's why I stated some of the things I'd like to see changed. There are others, those were just the first that came to mind.

I am with you, I guess I just think, or maybe expect (which might not be fair of me) that if a game comes out, and does things right, that the competition should try and incorporate it in as well. ...........multitasking and forgot my train of thought haha....

 

[JohnBM01]

Well, here's where I stand. GT has long been the gold standard of racing games no matter what Codemasters or SimBin or Image Space or whoever thinks. The reason why I'm asking if GT is still king is because of all the people who think GT is no longer the racing juggernaut because people have flocked to Forza. I've heard and seen every conceivable cheap shot against GT (mentioned pages ago), but not too many for Forza (care to give me any examples of Forza cheap shots from media and spoken words?).

--- Car Customization ---
So you all brought up body customization. People are usually going to get the presumption that a change towards body modification is a step towards "ricing" cars. That's not always true. I still envision taking some of my cars and making them into custom race cars. I even have made a thread regarding making race cars from your street cars. Let's not make it sound like we're turning cars into "rice rockets" by adding body customization. It all comes to another scenario- will the manufacturers allow for modification of car bodies to make pure race cars and even great tuned cars? Take Houston's own- Hennessey Performance. If you want a 200 mph Dodge Viper, Hennessey will make it happen. They still have some of the baddest rides to rip up some roads and tracks. Some of Hennessey's tuned rides even have modified aero parts. I'm just providing you an example of how modifying cars can not only lead to more personalized cars, but also making your car YOUR car. Take a look at some of the cars from these links:

http://www.hennesseyperformance.com/hennesseyperformance/page.php?id=10&cart=NmxWOKNL
http://www.hennesseyperformance.com...rt=NmxWOKNL&DoThis=HPE+Racing&ActionReq=Where
http://www.hennesseyperformance.com/hennesseyperformance/Cust_Cars.php?cart=NmxWOKNL

I do sort of hope that Hennessey gets into GT5 along with (maybe) Risi Competizione. All the Houston love I'll ever need! The point of all of this was to show that some body modifications lead to personalized cars where the sky is the limit as to how much you want to modify cars. You know how I said that I want to modify cars to be more like the fantasy LM Race Car models in GT? Well, I also think I want to be able to modify some of the cars to be more like the tuner cars as well. In other words, who wants a fully-tuned car... that looks in its same stock configuration (even with a custom rear wing)? It's why I'm stressing that perhaps PD look into making some efforts to body modifications as well as graphics. I want this to not only apply to our own cars in GT5, but also for opponent cars in GT5. Think about a model in which different AI opponents have their own tuned cars both in performance and in looks. The least that can be done is some sort of driver number system like in "Ridge Racer V" or (dare I say) "Need for Speed: Most Wanted." Going to be racing? Why not look the part? Not having special graphics or body modifications is like going to a black tie event in your T-shirt and jeans (not that I have any personal experience).



I'm still under the presumption that some people think Forza's the new king. So that's why I'm going to tackle as many arguments as possible with a good thread like this. The question I asked last time is if you think GT5 will be a better game because of what Forza brings to the table? You may answer this or comment on this post you're reading.

 

[Gek54]

I hate the fact that Forza 2 didnt support a wheel with 900 degrees and thus lacks linear steering but Forza 2's physics, damage, audio and overall game structure puts Forza 2 out in front of any shown by PD so far. I was a rabid GT fan until I played forza but I am still hoping that GT5 will be able to match or better the physics from Forza 2 especially if it fully supports my G25 wheel. Seeing 18? cars on the screen is a little concerning when hoping they focus more on quality over quantity and I really really hope that wont mean 30fps. As a gearhead I was also disappointed when Kaz mentioned that he thought tunning might not really be important. Heres hoping GT5 will be great.

 

[Bram Turismo]

Would the game still be good without it? Yes. Its just icing on the cake,

Exactly, GT has always been my favourit racing game, and I've played a lot of racing games for both the PS1 and the PS2. From Toca to F1 and whatnot. But there's a certain factor that always draws me back to GT, I don't know for what reason, but I think it's the attention to detail.

but eventually, and in my opinion that time is now, serious customization of cars in simulation games (both visual and mechanical) is a must-include feature....

Though I agree with you here, I also disagree. I think ever since Forza came out on the Xbox, people started to really request the damage. When GT3 was released, nobody cared about the fact that PD did not included damage, why? GT3 was so awesome in every aspect, you couldn't blame PD for not getting into damage. If I remember correctly, GT3 was released just after the PS2 was released and if you take a close look at how GT evolved between GT2 and GT3, PD created the most awesome racing game untill today, in my opinion. GT3 was the game that sent all other game manufacturers to their drawing boards and computers, all to create an even more awesome racing game then GT3. There was no game that could do it, untill the Xbox arrived, giving other the chance to fully use the Xbox's stronger performances. The computers also became more powerful, giving PGR the chance to be better, although it never really beats GT in my opinion.

And that's when PD realised everybody else was getting dangerously close to, and if not already, beating them, because of those stronger specs of both the Xbox and PC. PD did an amazing job on GT4, bringing the PS2 to a level no other game had ever achieved, but despite that, they were never able to bring anything new to the game, and they completely missed the icing on the cake by not fully completing an good physics engine, and ruining GT3's awesome, and incredibly fun rally engine. My guess is that PD was put in a position where everybody wanted to see the game released to take on PGR and Forza, and because everyone made the deadline shorter, PD was never able to put the icing on the cake. If PD did use a well set-up rally, and driving physics engine, like those used in GT3, GT4 would be the best racing game for a long period.

Imo customising the exterior of your car is a step GT must take for people to not drift to favoring Forza in general. As for body mods doing nothing but being visual, anyone with half an ounce of sense will tell you that isn't the case, race cars don't use the stock cars bodywork, why, because it's not as efficient at getting around the track as fast as possible as a car with bodywork adapted to benefit aerodynamically is. In terms of painting your car, then it's immersion as well as visual. How many races do you watch where you see a field of GT cars with plain single colour paint jobs racing round th e track. If I want to build a race car I want to build a race car, mechanically and visually. Forza lets me do that, Forza allows far more creativity han GT does and that is a big plus point in Forza's favour. Ofcours that's not all a game needs, Forza 2 offers a pretty decent physics engine, I hope GT5's is better but I also hope GT5 offers a much more extensive level of customisation both visually and mechanically. GT's customisation in the past has been very linear, I'd love to see it opened up, really opened up so that my highly tuned S2000 isn't exactley the same as your highly tuned S2000, both visually and mechanically.

I agree with you here. But keep in mind that GT4 has 700 cars and 50 tracks. Ok, so not everyone really wants to have those amounts, but when it's been told, and you don't like it, then don't buy the game and don't start to complain afterwards. Everyone pretty much knew the direction PD was heading towards after GT: Concept, and GT4: Prologue. A racing game, with a lot of realism, a wide variety of cars and tracks, and extremism in terms of attention to detail. If GT4 sucks so much, then why is it a game amongst the best selling PS2 games ever? Well, a die-hard GT fan will always stick to GT, just because of what GT offers. Even the average racing games player will greatly appreciate what PD has done with GT4.

I would've liked to see damage in GT4 as well, but I don't really care, as I know the GT series is always fun, all of the games were games to look forward to. Every GT game had its unique features and whether it be with or without damage, you simply have to give PD credit for having even the slightest balls to begin drawing and analyzing 700 cars and 50 tracks. I can't even imagine the amoun of hours PD spent on creating the Nürburging, but it was worth it. PD created the most awesome 'Ring ever to be featured in a racing game. All of the bumps, corners, differences in heights around, even the graffiti on the tarmac, it was all there. With or without damage, it's just incredibly awesome to take out your 600 Hp racecar on the Le Mans circuit to feel the nostalgic feelings you experienced from over the years, watching various legendary racecars at that track, not too mention the awesomness PD created with the DFP.

I'm still holding my ground, yes, damage adds up to fun in a certain way but it's not needed to have fun in a game 👍

 

[DARCwizard]

I'm still holding my ground, yes, damage adds up to fun in a certain way but it's not needed to have fun in a game 👍

Totally agree, as with body customization, custom radio, having different part from different manufacturers, etc... It certainly is not needed, I think I personally just feel like to really get a jump with GT5, graphics is not enough. I think I feel that way because I saw a graphics jump from GT2 to GT3. I saw a car list jump from GT3 to GT4. I saw the track visuals taken up 16 levels from GT3 to GT4. I guess I feel like I have a "been there done that" view on it (which is extremely unfair I know) and I see what others have done that PD has not, so I feel like it should be standard. With that said, it wont take away from the fun of the game if none of these things are included, and I am extremely happy with the work they have already done!

 

[Biggles]

seeing 18 cars on screen is a little concerning when hoping they focus more on quality over quantity

My concern also. I'd rather have less cars & more quality for the physics engine & other aspects of the game.

 

[Dave A]

Well no, 18 car races means better races, provided the AI isn't too bumpercar-ish. I don't see how having 18 cars in each race is anything but a good thing over having only 6 though. Nor do I see how it takes anything or even threatens to take anything away from the physics and AI etc. The people concentrating on optomisation don't deal with modelling and the modellers don't deal with the AI and the AI people don't deal with the physics etc. It's common sense that each field has specifically skilled professionals working in it.

 

[buickgnx88]

I believe that GT could use a better level of visual and physical customization.

Visual: Wheels and (limited) spoilers just arent enough in a crowd of say 18 racers. It would be nice to have more wheel/tire options including sizing and sidewall designs (whitewall, redline, white letter, etc.). It would also be nice to have functional bodykits, more spoiler options including having them body color, and front spoilers and hood options. It could be possible to have them due to the fact that many of the vehicles are concepts, race cars, or there are many repeats of the same vehicle (skylines, civics, etc.) And the hood scoops just need to be the kind that bolt on to the stock hood so they can be used on all the vehicles.

Physical: More parts manufacturers, especially some American and European ones (Hennessey, Roush, Cosworth, etc.). The way that you buy parts also needs to be changed. No more asking are you sure that you want to buy the part, then if u want it installed for every individual part. They should have something like NFS: Most Wanted where you choose all the parts, then go to the "checkout" and pay for them all at once, and they all get installed at the same time too. I mean, 99% of the time people install the part right away (with the exception of tires). I also think it's kind of dumb having the Tuner Village parts be exactly the same and have the same effects as the normal "dealer" parts (other then the Tuner Village offering one more upgrade for turbos/superchargers and full models). They should have different parts and different effects.

 

[Ben Aracin]

Damage is and must be included for any SIMULATION to be called a real simulation, period.
The next GT DOES need better and much more detailed car visual and mechanical upgrading. It's very much a part of racing or no one would ever have or end up having half the cool cars we got in the real world.
And as for no one wanting damage before Forza came along? gee i guess i'm nobody, seeing as i've wanted damage since number 2.
I played and owned a game that had a limited form of damage way back on the PS1. It was by far one of the best racing sim type games that system had.
The game was called Test Drive: Le Mans.
I loved the simple weather effects it had as well.
And the day to night changes.
And even tho the A.I. could be a real B****, at least it had one that worked.
It even had adjustable difficulty.
Now after all these years of GT and all we've gotten is just prettier graphics and more cars and more tracks both of which had too many duplicate versions of, i Still read folk saying they are completely happy with the GT series just as it is and even call GT4 a good game.
All i can hope for is that PD finally catches up to what a PSone game did those years ago and finally put it in with Professional mode ( which i also hope is as realistic as possible) so that i won't have to buy a gaming PC to get my RACING FIX on a SIMULATION style game.
If all we are getting is damage on race cars then i want my custom made race car to LOOK like a race car and not just pretend it is one cause "i put mechanical parts on it and tuned it".

 

[JohnBM01]

I'm usually critical of those who take a hot-headed and senseless approach to GT (not knocking anyone). However, there is some validity to the final sentence to what Ben Aracin mentioned. It seconded my view that perhaps cars tuned for racing should have some damage even to some degree. Only issue is if (a) the auto makers actually allow damage to cars even modified in looks, and (b) if PD can come up with a sufficient damage model to make these work. Any ideas you want to key in on here?

Any car modified with performance parts or even functional body changes (even slightly) is a race car in my view, especially if you take it racing. That's all I'll say for now. Now it's time for you to respond to what Ben Aracin mentioned.

 

[unv412]

I hate the fact in fm2 i have to tune a 550 marenello to 700hp to race against stock gt40s and SLRS to win money .I 've never driven a 550 and would have liked to race it as a stockey to guage how good/bad it is wilst wining money along the way.I hate tuning cars.Id rather race them stock against other unmodified cars and see how they go.My 550 marenello wheel spins uncontrollably in 3rd gear......wow thats realistic!!!!! What hapened to seeing how fast a car is on its own merits???

 

[JasBird]

I hate the fact in fm2 i have to tune a 550 marenello to 700hp to race against stock gt40s and SLRS to win money .I 've never driven a 550 and would have liked to race it as a stockey to guage how good/bad it is wilst wining money along the way.I hate tuning cars.Id rather race them stock against other unmodified cars and see how they go.My 550 marenello wheel spins uncontrollably in 3rd gear......wow thats realistic!!!!! What hapened to seeing how fast a car is on its own merits???

I second that.

I would think it takes a huge amount of resources to have all these options to customize cars, especially visually, and I think the GT series should use their resources on more basic stuff like more tracks, physics, AI, damage etc.

If we look at Forza 2 I think one reason they are big on ways to customize cars is because then they have something which the GT series don't have, but I also think that's why Forza lacks in other places, because they must have used alot of resources on that particular part.

Anyways it's gonna be interesting to see how far GT5 will go on how much you can customize your car, but I don't thing they will go as far as Forza 2.

Cheers

 

[Bram Turismo]

Damage is and must be included for any SIMULATION to be called a real simulation, period.
The next GT DOES need better and much more detailed car visual and mechanical upgrading. It's very much a part of racing or no one would ever have or end up having half the cool cars we got in the real world.
And as for no one wanting damage before Forza came along? gee i guess i'm nobody, seeing as i've wanted damage since number 2.
I played and owned a game that had a limited form of damage way back on the PS1. It was by far one of the best racing sim type games that system had.
The game was called Test Drive: Le Mans.
I loved the simple weather effects it had as well.
And the day to night changes.
And even tho the A.I. could be a real B****, at least it had one that worked.
It even had adjustable difficulty.
Now after all these years of GT and all we've gotten is just prettier graphics and more cars and more tracks both of which had too many duplicate versions of, i Still read folk saying they are completely happy with the GT series just as it is and even call GT4 a good game.
All i can hope for is that PD finally catches up to what a PSone game did those years ago and finally put it in with Professional mode ( which i also hope is as realistic as possible) so that i won't have to buy a gaming PC to get my RACING FIX on a SIMULATION style game.
If all we are getting is damage on race cars then i want my custom made race car to LOOK like a race car and not just pretend it is one cause "i put mechanical parts on it and tuned it".

I remember that game, I absolutely loved it and it's a shame it doesn't work anymore for me


Anyway, I disagreee with your statement that simulators should include damage. Not entirely, because it adds up to the realism and simulation, but only in curcomstances of damage. What I'm saying is, a simulator is in my eyes a game which re-creates driving physics, whether it be a race or road car. Let us take Microsoft's Flight Simulator: The earlier versions didn't include any damage as well, but it still is a simulator, why? Because the game includes all the physics of a real plane, and that's where the line between arcade games and simulators are. NFS is a game where nothing technical is included, there is no real understeer, nor is there decent oversteer. Everything you do in NFS is perfectly controlled by the car, you try and take a corner at 120 mph, if you release the throttle, your car will either oversteer or understeer, depending on the drivetrain of the car and where the engine is located. If you take a corner in NFS at a speed of 120 mph and you release the throttle, nothing happens, you only slow down. Whilst in GT4, you'll easily encounter oversteer with an midship driven car (NSX, MR2, etc.)

My point is, there is no damage needed to make a racing game fun, addictive, nor does it make a game an arcade game or a simulation game. Think of it, if Forza wouldn't have it's current physics engine, but the same as NFS, it would be rated as an arcade game. Damage does not set the line between simulation or arcade, but physics do. Damage isn't always fun either, when you're driving in a seriously hard to complete cup, like the Opel Speedster cup in GT4, which is a real PITA, you really don't want to ruin your bodywork or get your suspension damaged, to come in and have it repaired every lap...

 

[FoolKiller]

I mean, 99% of the time people install the part right away (with the exception of tires).

Actually, ask me if I want to install them. Because when I buy a car I then go and buy EVERY part for it, except where there is a full customization part, like suspension. But I buy every NA Tune/Turbo, tire, etc available for the car, but I don't install any of them. This way, when I am just wanting to fiddle I have everything at my fingertips. Doing this gives me access to numerous set ups all at once and if I realize I could use just a few more horsepower I can just put on the racing chip. If I find I am seriously outmatched in a race I can inch the power up bit by bit until I fid a setup that allows a close race, and decent A-Spec points.

 

[Biggles]

My concern also. I'd rather have less cars & more quality for the physics engine & other aspects of the game.

I would think it takes a huge amount of resources to have all these options to customize cars, especially visually, and I think the GT series should use their resources on more basic stuff like more tracks, physics, AI, damage etc.

That was my point exactly, Bullitt. I am positive that F & F2 suffered in the graphics, tracks & other areas because Turn10 devoted so much time & resources to optomising car customisation. There is a finite amount of time & resources available to work on any game. I would rather it was spent on physics, graphics, AI & tracks. Customisation of hundreds of different cars, especially of the interiors is way down my list.

 

[DARCwizard]

I guess it really comes down to release dates. If a game company had unlimited time to do stuff there would be no games out there because they would want to keep adding stuff in, I just feel like they are pushing "real life car simulator" and missing a few *KEY* elements to make it a real life car simulator...(or what ever the slogan is, you get the picture )

 

[FoolKiller]

I guess it really comes down to release dates. If a game company had unlimited time to do stuff there would be no games out there because they would want to keep adding stuff in

It's called Duke Nukem.

 

[DARCwizard]

It's called Duke Nukem.

HAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAH you just made me laugh really really hard, at work.

 

[JohnBM01]

And remember, don't complain about delays of GT without thinking about games like Malice and Duke Nukem Forever. Those are the extreme cases of delaying. GT's delays are nothing compared to these two games (especially Duke Nukem Forever). So ease up off of GT if you talk about delays.

 

[McLaren]

It's called Duke Nukem.

That must explain "Forever" in the title. It'll remain in development...forever!
But if Team Fortress 2 can finally be available...maybe DKF could make it.

 

[DARCwizard]

That must explain "Forever" in the title. It'll remain in development...forever!
But if Team Fortress 2 can finally be available...maybe DKF could make it.

WORD!

 

[Parnelli Bone]

NO i dont' think gT is losing the battle, but it is a battle. I haven't played Forza yet, but from what i've read, both games have their plusses and minuses. 👍

 

[Kamus]

the "battle" against forza is only of 360 fanboys, most playstation owners don't even know or care to know about forza.
They are in very different leagues.

 

[Dave A]

I dissgree, Forza does certain thigs very, very well. They are both thier own games, but GT could learn some things from Forza, and vice versa. Imo, anyone who claims GT is in a different league, is a much a GT fanboy, as the people they rattle on about who they class as Forza or 360 fanboys.

 

[Formula1Driver]

I believe GT5 or GT all together is ahead of Forza. Both games have their pros and cons but Gran Turismo is still the frontrunning driving simulator. After playing Forza 2 for the first time at the CNE in Toronto earlier this week, I was actually disappointed by the graphics, gameplay not bad. I think we still need to wait until GT5 comes out because GT4 is a bit outdated being almost 3 years old and Forza 2 being what 3 months old? However, we can only make a decision when GT5 comes out.