Do you think that GT is losing the battle against Forza?

[Japspecvr6]

Are you saying Forza is chessy or cheesy?

Sorry For the Spellin......

 

[Joey D]

Honestly I have, I think Forza is a very good game but it doesnt have a strong following....and the game play i think is a bit cheesy....but i was diggin the cockpits what they had....Trust me Im a unbias gamer....

You are not an unbiased gamer, if you were then you wouldn't be claiming Forza is "cheesy as hell". Forza has quite a large following, just not here on a Gran Turismo website. There are several Forza websites out there that you can visit that are just like this one.

You might prefer GT over Forza which is completely fine, but it isn't a bad game like you are making it out to be.

 

[Japspecvr6]

You are not an unbiased gamer, if you were then you wouldn't be claiming Forza is "cheesy as hell". Forza has quite a large following, just not here on a Gran Turismo website. There are several Forza websites out there that you can visit that are just like this one.

You might prefer GT over Forza which is completely fine, but it isn't a bad game like you are making it out to be.

But thats the point im not saying forza is a bad game. i just think its a little cheesy overall. there is some features that stick out that GT could take but that game just aint there yet.

Its like the nba 2k VS live thing. There was somethings in 2k like the animations that would kill live but the gameplay wasnt there. Now its a total different story 2k has it all now and nobody can deny it. I know people that coded for Live 08 and they run home and 2k8 and trust me i'm a unbias gamer bro !

 

[Dave A]

So you know game developers, car to elaborate? With regards to the cheesey comment, to an extent I'd agree, in that the game lacks a polish that Gran Turismo has, game play wise though it is certainly not cheesey, the races are good, more fun than GT4's, but the gaems presentation lacks polish.

 

[Joey D]

Care to elaborate on how Forza is cheesy and GT is not? They more or less do the same thing, except the tuning in Forza is a little different.

 

[Japspecvr6]

So you know game developers, car to elaborate? With regards to the cheesey comment, to an extent I'd agree, in that the game lacks a polish that Gran Turismo has, game play wise though it is certainly not cheesey, the races are good, more fun than GT4's, but the gaems presentation lacks polish.

Basically. Thanks

 

[Biggles]

I have no idea what you mean by cheesy.

I'm not that familiar with Forza 2, but IMO even Forza 1 was superior in "presentation" - ie. more polished - to GT4. Where GT4 was superior was in quantity & variety of cars & (especially) tracks, & in the realism of the graphics (especially in the superb replays). On the other hand, Forza 1 was significantly superior in the AI, collision physics & of course, damage, as well as offering online. All this meant that Forza 1 provided a far superior racing experience than GT4.

Playing GT4, I often feel that many of the races are simply a chore to get through, to advance in the game, offering little in the way of challenge or excitement. I prefer to set up my own races in Arcade mode where I can choose the most interesting courses (Nurburgring & Le Sarthe) & cars, on the higher difficulty settings. In Forza 1, there were many races in career mode that I ran many times, because they were always difficult, varied & challenging.

The one other area where Forza was lacking was in not offering support for Logitech wheels. This is why I decided not to get a 360 (& the 30%+ failure rate) & buy a PS3 instead. With F1:CE I am finding a lot of the racing challenge that was in Forza. I just hope that when GT5 comes along it provides a similar racing experience.

 

[Japspecvr6]

I have no idea what you mean by cheesy.

I'm not that familiar with Forza 2, but IMO even Forza 1 was superior in "presentation" - ie. more polished - to GT4. Where GT4 was superior was in quantity & variety of cars & (especially) tracks, & in the realism of the graphics (especially in the superb replays). On the other hand, Forza 1 was significantly superior in the AI, collision physics & of course, damage, as well as offering online. All this meant that Forza 1 provided a far superior racing experience than GT4.

Playing GT4, I often feel that many of the races are simply a chore to get through, to advance in the game, offering little in the way of challenge or excitement. I prefer to set up my own races in Arcade mode where I can choose the most interesting courses (Nurburgring & Le Sarthe) & cars, on the higher difficulty settings. In Forza 1, there were many races in career mode that I ran many times, because they were always difficult, varied & challenging.

The one other area where Forza was lacking was in not offering support for Logitech wheels. This is why I decided not to get a 360 (& the 30%+ failure rate) & buy a PS3 instead. With F1:CE I am finding a lot of the racing challenge that was in Forza. I just hope that when GT5 comes along it provides a similar racing experience.

Just read a couple posts up. Point blank Forza just doesnt have it.👎

 

[Wolfe]

You know what I think is cheesy? Fancy, polished graphics and neat little musical scores draped over a GUI/menu system that is by all means an overly complicated and time-consuming-to-navigate mess. I'm looking at you, GT4.

Just about the only thing I could complain about with Forza 2's GUI is that laggy "slide" when switching between menu choices. On the other hand, if it wasn't for that slide then the famous money trick wouldn't exist, and my friends and I would actually have to slog through the game to get enough money to build what we want.

 

[Biggles]

You know what I think is cheesy? Fancy, polished graphics and neat little musical scores draped over a GUI/menu system that is by all means an overly complicated and time-consuming-to-navigate mess. I'm looking at you, GT4.

Exactly. Other than in-game graphics, Forza looks much more "polished" than GT4.

 

[amar212]

Damn, Paris is crying again.. Stop fighting, now!

 

[cudadude2]

http://www.ripten.com/2007/12/11/famitsu-review-gran-turismo-5-prologue-3940/

heres some scores for prolog and forza

 

[J-PaP]

must say i agree forza does seem cheesy in a sence. By cheesy though I would interpret it as arcady. The cars look cartoonish, handling just doesn't feel pleasant and there is a lack of volume compared to that gt4 has. Guess the best one sentence answer would be that its a lot easier to immerse yourself in gt than forza.

 

[Joey D]

I found the handling in Forza to be far more realistic than GT's. GT was way to understeery to be realistic.

 

[J-PaP]

not sure if above comment was towards my post but to clear up i'm not saying gt feels more realistic than forza. just saying i prefer the way cars handle in gt than forza.

 

[Digital-Nitrate]

That's OK, I'll say it then... From my on-track experience (Laguna Seca & Sears Point - aka Infineon) and my experience playing GT3, GT4, Forza, Forza 2, PGR3 and PGR4, I have found GT4 driving physics overall feel the most realistic, but I can understand why some prefer Forza, like PGR4 it's overall physics and handling is more forgiving than GT4.

 

[Joey D]

But GT makes just about every car seem like it understeers way to much. I personally did not find GT4 to be very realistic at all other than the car looked the way they were supposed to. The gearing seemed off, the sound wasn't even somewhat correct, and the brakes didn't feel like they should.

Granted most of the time I played with traction control and stability control on, but I did experiment with turning them off so that I had the full effect of the game. Personally it didn't do much for me. GT4 seemed like PD put all of it's time into making cars and making it look pretty but forgot to do anything else.

Forza is better although I don't find it as realistic as it should. Some of the cars experience way to much oversteer, do not display enough body roll, the brakes are unrealistic as well (and heat up way to fast), and the damaging modeling is a bit weird.

I quit playing GT4 once the first Forza came out and I haven't really revisited since other then to look through some cars or play with photomode. The races were just so lame I couldn't play it any more. If I wanted a Le Mans racing game I would have bought one. I mean what good is a game with around 500 stock, road going car when you are forced to race the racing spec versions of them?

 

[Digital-Nitrate]

Well everyone is certainly entitled to having their own personal opinions, but I would disagree with much of what you just said, especially the comment about being forced to race the racing spec of the 500 stock cars... that's just completely wrong, and there are countless threads on GTP that prove that is not at all the case.

In addition I certainly disagree with you when it comes to comparing the level of realism in the driving physics, but maybe you have more experience driving many of the cars from GT4 on the same tracks in GT4 than I have.

It certainly might help better understand how it is you would know that one game's physics is more realistic than another, other than based on your own personal preference.

 

[Joey D]

Well everyone is certainly entitled to having their own personal opinions, but I would disagree with much of what you just said, especially the comment about being forced to race the racing spec of the 500 stock cars... that's just completely wrong, and there are countless threads on GTP that prove that is not at all the case.

There were many races, especially in the higher level events that made you race a racing spec car if you wanted to even have a chance of winning. I like a challenge, but really it's only a game and I shouldn't be getting so frustrated that I want to chuck my controller through the TV. I don't want to race racing spec cars, I do not care if there are JGTC, D1 Grand Prix, Le Mans and Trans Am series cars in the game. Like I said if I wanted a game like that I would buy one, probably GTR2.

In addition I certainly disagree with you when it comes to comparing the level of realism in the driving physics, but maybe you have more experience driving many of the cars from GT4 on the same tracks in GT4 than I have.

I have not founding a racing game yet that offers realism. For one the acceleration in games seems to be way off as well as the gearing. On a normal road car with no modifications what so ever I would not be doing 60mph in 1st gear, yet the game seems no problem with that, whether it be Forza or GT. But that's another topic.

I haven't driven anywhere near the number of cars in GT or Forza around a track, I don't think many people on these boards have. I haven't driven anyone of the tracks either since I do not live in an area with them or own a car that is capable of taking to them. Other then seeing some of the track I have no experience with them.

However I do drive a car every single day and I understand how the physics of the real world do affect it. Sure I'm not doing 100mph down my local road and slamming on the brakes to slide it around the corner at the stop light, but I do know how certain cars feel in real life and GT doesn't feel like the real thing. As I've said Forza is better but not spot on.

Whether this is due to longer development time or just a different focus of funds, I do not know. After playing GT5 demo I can clearly see PD spent a large portion of it's budget to make the game look amazing, while Forza just looks ok. This is from the car models to the tracks to the scenery surrounding them, everything in GT is more detailed.

It certainly might help better understand how it is you would know that one game's physics is more realistic than another, other than based on your own personal preference.

As I've said I own a car and I drive that car in real life, I know what they are supposed to feel like...the same with anyone else who drives on a regular bases.

 

[Digital-Nitrate]

There were many races, especially in the higher level events that made you race a racing spec car if you wanted to even have a chance of winning. I like a challenge, but really it's only a game and I shouldn't be getting so frustrated that I want to chuck my controller through the TV. I don't want to race racing spec cars, I do not care if there are JGTC, D1 Grand Prix, Le Mans and Trans Am series cars in the game. Like I said if I wanted a game like that I would buy one, probably GTR2.

Could you be specific on which of the races you are forced to drive a race-speced stock car in order to be competitive?

You are very much making it sound like that is the normal situation, and that simply is not the case... far from it. In fact, if you have issues with being forced to use particular cars and set-ups, then if anything GT4 should be your favorite driving game as it more than any other racing game offers the absolutely widest variety of choices in terms of the pool of AI cars you are up against, the selection of cars you can use, the tuning choices you can make, and the mods you can use.. or not use.

Really, your observations so far suggest you may have either forgotten all the aspects to GT4, or may not have played it much, or some other reason, as there is ample evidence to prove what you claim is not true.

There is certainly nothing wrong with preferring one game over another, but please use actual facts if you want to support that opinion.

I have not founding a racing game yet that offers realism. For one the acceleration in games seems to be way off as well as the gearing. On a normal road car with no modifications what so ever I would not be doing 60mph in 1st gear, yet the game seems no problem with that, whether it be Forza or GT. But that's another topic.

Quite true, and of course there are sooo many aspects needed to create a 100% realistic driving simulation that no console will ever be able to do. Even $100,000 pneumatic simulators still can't completely recreate all the aspects of actually driving.

I haven't driven anywhere near the number of cars in GT or Forza around a track, I don't think many people on these boards have. I haven't driven anyone of the tracks either since I do not live in an area with them or own a car that is capable of taking to them. Other then seeing some of the track I have no experience with them.

However I do drive a car every single day and I understand how the physics of the real world do affect it. Sure I'm not doing 100mph down my local road and slamming on the brakes to slide it around the corner at the stop light, but I do know how certain cars feel in real life and GT doesn't feel like the real thing. As I've said Forza is better but not spot on.

Whether this is due to longer development time or just a different focus of funds, I do not know. After playing GT5 demo I can clearly see PD spent a large portion of it's budget to make the game look amazing, while Forza just looks ok. This is from the car models to the tracks to the scenery surrounding them, everything in GT is more detailed.



As I've said I own a car and I drive that car in real life, I know what they are supposed to feel like...the same with anyone else who drives on a regular bases.

So here appears to be the big problem. You’re making a massive leap of faith believing that all cars in general are going to behave roughly the same way, and that's as far from the truth as you'll ever get. In brakes alone, there is a huge difference between different types, as there are with tires, transmissions, suspensions, chassis, etc, etc etc.

By the standard you suggest, anyone who has ever driven a car can equally determine how realistic a driving simulator is... even though it has different cars, different set-ups, different racing conditions, and different tracks.... which of course is wrong on so many levels, and ignores the hundreds of thousands real life variables and hundreds of thousands of variables in a game like GT4.

So clearly at least at this point, your basis of what is realistic has very little to do with what the games have, and thus your comparisons to real life are extremely limited, and thus, understandably are far more reflective of your personal preference and not compared to having actually driven the same cars on the same tracks... which would be the only reasonably accurate way of comparing how realistic a game is.

I really am not trying to put your opinion down and certainly not trying to have an argument, only that is important to distinguish between a personal opinion and preference to actual facts and making accurate comparisons.

 

[FoolKiller]

I like a challenge, but really it's only a game and I shouldn't be getting so frustrated that I want to chuck my controller through the TV.

You must have hated Ghosts and Goblins.

Anyway, I find this kind of funny as most people complain that GT4 was too easy.

Based on the Prologue demo though I can say that that I feel GT5 won't have a case of too easy to win. With the simulation physics you had to be pretty good to pull off a win.

 

[Joey D]

Could you be specific to which of the races you are forced to drive a race-specd stock car in order to be competitive?

From the GTPlanet Game Guide:
Gran Turismo All Stars
Observed Opponents
* Mazda 787B Race Car '91
* Nissan R89C Race Car '89
* Mazda RX-7 LM Race Car '01
* BMW V12 LMR Race Car '99
* Nissan R92CP Race Car '92
* Minolta Toyota 88C-V Race Car '89

Dream Car Championship
Observed Opponents
* Mitsubishi FTO Super Touring Car '97
* Pagani Zonda LM Race Car '01
* Toyota RSC Rally Raid Car '02
* Honda NSX-R Prototype LM Race Car '02
* Subaru IMPREZA Super Touring Car '01
* Mazda RX-7 LM Race Car '01

Like The Wind
Observed Opponents:
* AMG Mercedes CLK-GTR Race Car '98 - Does not pit
* Audi R8 Race Car '01 - Pits lap 4
* Bentley Speed 8 Race CAr '03 - Pits lap 3
* Ford GT LM Race Car '02 - Does not pit
* Gillet Vertigo Race Car '04 - Does not pit
* Jaguar XJR-9 Race Car '88 - Does not pit
* Mazda 787B Race Car '91 - Pits lap 3
* MINOLTA Toyota 88C-V Race Car '89 - Pits lap 3
* Nissan R390 GT1 LM Race Car '98 - Pits lap 4
* Nissan R89C Race Car '89 - Pits lap 3
* Nissan R92CP Race Car '92 - Pits lap 3
* Playstation Pescarolo C60/Judd Race Car '04 - Does not pit
* Pescarolo Courage C60/Peugeot Race Car '03 - Does not pit
* Peugeot 905 Race Car - Does not pit
* Sauber Mercedes C9 Race Car '89 - Pits lap 3
* Toyota TS020 GT-One Race Car '99 - Pits lap 3

Formula GT World Championship
Observed Opponents:
Formula Gran Turismo '04 (different colours)

Real Circuit Tours
Observed Opponents:
* AMG Mercedes CLK-GTR Race Car '98
* Audi R8 Race Car '01
* BMW V12 LMR Race Car '99
* Ford GT LM Race Car Spec II '04
* Mazda 787B Race Car '91
* Nissan R390 GT1 Race Car '98
* Nissan R89C Race Car '89
* Peugeot 905 Race Car '92
* PlayStation Pescarolo C60/Judd Race Car '04

Gran Turismo World Championship
Observed Opponents:
* AMG Mercedes-Benz CLK-GTR Race Car '98
* Audi R8 Race Car '01
* Chaparral 2D Race Car '67
* Chaparral 2J Race Car '70
* Ford GT LM Race Car '02
* Gillet Vertigo Race Car '04
* Mazda 787B Race Car '91
* MINOLTA Toyota 88C-V Race Car '89
* Nissan R390 GT1 Race Car '98
* Nissan R89C Race Car '89
* Nissan R92CP Race Car '92
* Pescarolo Courage C60 Race Car '03
* PlayStation Pescarolo C60 Race Car '04
* Sauber Mercedes C9 Race Car '89
* Toyota GT-ONE Race Car (TS020) '98

You get the idea, I could post the others but I don't want this post to go longer than it already has. Look the the game guides to see what I am talking about. I really never understood why more races couldn't be like this:

Clubman Cup
Observed Opponents:
* BMW 330i '05
* TVR V8S '91
* Mercedes-Benz AMG 190E 2.5 16V Evolution II (DTM) '91
* Alfa Romeo GT 3.2 V6 24V '04
* Dodge Neon SRT-4
* Clio Renault Sport V6 Phase 2 '03
* Nissan SKYLINE GTS-t Type M '91
* Fiat Coupe Turbo Plus '00

Normal-ish cars racing around the track, cars real people might actually own and race. I don't know about you but I do not have an Audi Le Mans car sitting in my garage...all I got it a Mini Cooper.

You are very much making it sound like that is the normal situation, and that simply is not the case... far from it. In fact, if you have issues with being forced to use particular cars and set-ups, then if anything GT4 should be your favorite driving game as it more than any other racing game offers the absolutely widest variety of choices in terms of the pool of AI cars you are up against, the selection of cars you can use, the tuning choices you can make, and the mods you can use.. or not use. Really, you observations so far suggest you may have either forgotten all the aspects to GT4, or may not have played it much, or some other reason, as there is ample evidence to prove what you claim is not true.

This shows your bias for the game, if you want to win many of the races in the Extreme Hall you more or less have to use a race spec car. You can use a normal car but you either have to add so much power to it that it is impossible to control or you just can not beat the other cars.

I've shown you several races in which a race spec car is required to win the race, like I said I can show you more but I feel like you should get the idea. It's not me being biased against the game either, I hate the higher level races in Forza for exactly the same reason.

There is certainly nothing wrong with preferring one game over another, but please use actual facts if you want to support that opinion.

The only reason I prefer Forza over GT is because I feel it's more fun, but the game is far from perfect when it comes down to physics.

Quite true, and of course there are sooo many aspects need to create a real driving simulation that no console will ever be able to do. Even $100,000 pneumatic simulators still can't completely recreate all the aspects of actually driving.

Then GT should not call itself "The real driving simulator" because it is not.

So here appears to be the big problem. Your making a massive leap of faith believing that all cars in general are going to behave roughly the same way, and that's as far from the truth as you'll ever get. In brakes alone, there is a huge difference between different types, as there are with tires, transmissions, suspensions, chassis, etc, etc etc.

The 20 or so cars I've driven in real life that are in the game all point to the same thing. They were all stock as well since a majority of the people I know do not modify their cars or I was driving one off the dealers lot. If 20 cars say the same thing about virtual physics then I'm inclined to believe the real life car is right and the game is wrong (both Forza and GT).

By the standard you suggest, anyone who has ever driven a car can equally determine how realistic a driving simulator is... even though it has different cars, different set-ups, different racing conditions, and different tracks.... which of course is wrong on so many levels, and ignores the hundreds of thousands real life variables.

So you are saying just because you drive a real car you have no idea what it feels like until you drive it on a track? That is quite possibly one of the dumbest points I've heard thus far, if you own a car you know how it feels. I've driven the Mini Cooper in the game and it feels nothing like the real thing, this goes for both Forza and GT as well. And I'm not talking about adjusting the cars in the game, I'm talking about stock car in the game v. a stock car in real life, set up how you would drive it off the show room floor.

So clearly at least at this point, your basis of what is realistic has very little to do with what the games have, and thus your comparisons to real life are extremely limited, and thus, understandably are far more reflective of your personal preference and not compared to having actually driven the same cars on the same tracks... which would be the only reasonably accurate way of comparing how realistic a game is.

Once again because I have not driven the cars around a track that makes you right and me wrong? I guess I'll just continue driving my car even though I have no idea how on earth it is supposed to feel in real life.

I really am not trying to put your opinion down and certainly not trying to have an argument, only that is important to distinguish between a personal opinion and preference to actual facts and making accurate comparisons.

You really could have fooled me.

 

[McLaren]

Then GT should not call itself "The real driving simulator" because it is not.

Then Forza 2 should not be called a simulator either. And neither should Enthusia.

That is completely stupid. While no game can accurately represent every detail of the real world, that doesn't mean they aren't simulators. That's why they're called simulators. They're supposed to give you an understanding of how the "subject" can react. However, any sensible person should understand that a simulator can not represent every detail and that it can never truly represent what might happen. However, GT comes pretty d*mn close is and is still worthy of being called the real driving simulator.

BTW, please read the meaning of simulator.

A simulation is an imitation of some real thing, state of affairs, or process. The act of simulating something generally entails representing certain key characteristics or behaviours of a selected physical or abstract system.

A simulator only has to recreate the basics in an advanced way so that those main elements act like they should in real life. Forza 2 & GT do this very well. They don't have to create every single aspect to be called sims. It helps, but it isn't a necessity.

So you are saying just because you drive a real car you have no idea what it feels like until you drive it on a track? That is quite possibly one of the dumbest points I've heard thus far, if you own a car you know how it feels.

Um, no. That only works to a degree. Driving your car at 70Mph does not tell you how a car could feel on a race track. I've gladly experienced this in my TL as I easily found out what the Type S is really capable of, and it feels like it when it's being pushed on a 9-corner track, not my daily 13 street route to classes.

 

[Joey D]

Then Forza 2 should not be called a simulator either. And neither should Enthusia.

Correct they shouldn't, and I don't call them that. They are video games.

Um, no. That only works to a degree. Driving your car at 70Mph does not tell you how a car could feel on a race track. I've gladly experienced this in my TL as I easily found out what the Type S is really capable of, and it feels like it when it's being pushed on a 9-corner track, not my daily 13 street route to classes.

Who says I drive around the track in GT4 at 200mph and actually try to set the fastest time? A majority of my time spent on GT4 was driving around the tracks looking at the detail and taking photos...which meant seeing what it was like to do spirited street driving. I didn't find either Forza or GT4 to be accurate with this.

 

[McLaren]

Correct they shouldn't, and I don't call them that. They are video games.

That are simulators to a degree.

Who says I drive around the track in GT4 at 200mph and actually try to set the fastest time? A majority of my time spent on GT4 was driving around the tracks looking at the detail and taking photos...which meant seeing what it was like to do spirited street driving. I didn't find either Forza or GT4 to be accurate with this.

That doesn't disqualify them as simulators.

 

[Biggles]

Digital: I'm surprised that you (or anyone) would think that Forza is "easier" than GT4. IMO the Forza physics make the driving much more difficult than GT4 - the braking & steering in GT4 is just way more forgiving.

When you combine that with an aggressive & tough AI (perhaps too much so), much more realistic collision physics, & damage, you've got a far more challenging racing experience to deal with. Let's put in this way, in GT4, with the same car, I would expect to smoke the AI on any course - I generally have to give away 30 - 40% horsepower to the AI in order for it to give me a close race. In Forza, winning against an equally matched AI car is extremely difficult, even on the "Medium" setting, let alone the "Hard" setting.

To be honest, I've found much of the racing in GT4's "career" mode to be rather tedious - a chore to complete to gain more cars & advance through the game. After winning the race I would very rarely consider re-running it. In comparison, much of the racing in Forza's "career" mode is challenging & interesting & there are many races that I re-ran many, many times, for fun!

PD did a masterful job with the car modelling & the tracks in GT4, which really contributes to the superb sense of "realism". This is enhanced by the excellent wheel support. But the actual physics leaves a lot to be desired & without decent AI & collision physics, & with no damage, the "sim" aspect is seriously compromised.

 

[Joey D]

That are simulators to a degree.

In your opinion

That doesn't disqualify them as simulators.

In my opinion.

 

[Dave A]

m, no. That only works to a degree. Driving your car at 70Mph does not tell you how a car could feel on a race track. I've gladly experienced this in my TL as I easily found out what the Type S is really capable of, and it feels like it when it's being pushed on a 9-corner track, not my daily 13 street route to classes.

Not exactley adressing his point, a road car doesn't suddenly start to feel like a race car no matter how hard your driving it. I have tracked a car a total of 3 times, and all three times I knew exactley how my car would feel and even before tracking it and roughly how hard I could push it. I'm not saying I was a master on the track, but driving my car fast felt like driving my car fast. The steering didn't firm up beyond anything I'd experienced before, the car didn't shake any more than I've had it shaking down the M6 (the car in question was a diesel).

Of course there's an on-the-edge element when you start pushing, but the cars feel remains pretty much the same in my experience. If you over push, then the result generally in a road car is that you plough on and miss the corner. The feel of a proper road car and the feel of a track car are two very different things.

On the topic of GT being a simulator, well yes it is, it simulates, it's a simulator. If GT isn't a simulator then the only thing that is is something that equals real life, which is nothing. Since real life isn't simulating real life, real life itself isn't a simulator.

 

[Wolfe]

Not exactley adressing his point, a road car doesn't suddenly start to feel like a race car no matter how hard your driving it. I have tracked a car a total of 3 times, and all three times I knew exactley how my car would feel and even before tracking it and roughly how hard I could push it. I'm not saying I was a master on the track, but driving my car fast felt like driving my car fast. The steering didn't firm up beyond anything I'd experienced before, the car didn't shake any more than I've had it shaking down the M6 (the car in question was a diesel).

Of course there's an on-the-edge element when you start pushing, but the cars feel remains pretty much the same in my experience. If you over push, then the result generally in a road car is that you plough on and miss the corner. The feel of a proper road car and the feel of a track car are two very different things.

Yup. You don't have to have real-world experience driving an NSX around Tsukuba to have an idea of what it should be like. Just having experience pushing a car near its limits, and having an understanding of how the many variables of a car affect its handling and performance, is enough. Besides, it's not like any console game is anywhere close enough to real life to be scrutinized and compared down to the most minute details.

When I took my two laps around the Nürburgring on my trip to Germany in '05, I wasn't concerned with how the car would feel on a track at all. Even though I had never driven an E60 525ti before, I knew what to expect based on experience and knowledge of the car's specifications -- decent grip for a car of its type, followed by understeer when pushed, and that's exactly what I got. I managed a bit of oversteer at one point, but as I expected from the open differential and automatic transmission, it wasn't something to try on every corner.

On the topic of GT being a simulator, well yes it is, it simulates, it's a simulator. If GT isn't a simulator then the only thing that is is something that equals real life, which is nothing. Since real life isn't simulating real life, real life itself isn't a simulator.

A good point to make, but in my opinion, GT4 lies near the lower threshold for deserving the title "simulator." It tries to simulate reality, but doesn't do a very good job of it.

 

[GT4 defistation]

Unlike forza GT4 doesnt have lag which can really make players mad. For example,

and
So I think there is a clear winner here.