Do you think that GT is losing the battle against Forza?

[Joey D]

I've played Forza for years and have never had that issue, but every game has bugs, including GT4. Also some video on YouTube is hardly compelling proof, you know how easy it would be to use codes to change that sort of stuff?

 

[GT4 defistation]

So still some proof.

 

[MagpieRacer]

I got rid of Forza, it bored me to sleep. Well, the races did, some were exciting some werent but it felt really repetitive, needed more tracks.

GT FTW!

Although dont get me wrong, Forza is good.

 

[Joey D]

No it isn't, people use hybrids in games all the time. Just looking at the Xbox Live leader board should show you that. I mean what if I post this video and said...look at how bad GT4 is.

 

[MagpieRacer]

eh?

 

[Digital-Nitrate]

From the GTPlanet Game Guide:

*snip*

You get the idea, I could post the others but I don't want this post to go longer than it already has.

The only idea I get is you clearly have forgotten alot about GT4... like how there are over 450 races in GT4 (excluding all the rally "special condition events") and only about 90 are against AI in race cars... that's just 20% of all the races Joey!

Besides, you also aren't making any sense. First you say...

I mean what good is a game with around 500 stock, road going car when you are forced to race the racing spec versions of them?

And yet the fact that the vast majority of the races in GT4 are against stock production cars, and many races wont even allow you to race with a modified car, you use those races as some kind of evidence to support your claim you are forced to race speced production cars!

And here's the funny thing... GT4 is flexible enough that yeah... if you want to you can race the AI in a stock production car even though they have race cars, or you can mod a stock production car so that it can compete against the AI. Seriously, you really aren't making any sense at all.

Oh, and please list the 400+ different races in Forza or Forza 2 where the AI use production road cars. Don't worry, you can't. Not only that, but GT4 uses about four times as many different AI cars as Forza 2 as well.

I really never understood why more races couldn't be like this:

Clubman Cup
Observed Opponents:
* BMW 330i '05
* TVR V8S '91
* Mercedes-Benz AMG 190E 2.5 16V Evolution II (DTM) '91
* Alfa Romeo GT 3.2 V6 24V '04
* Dodge Neon SRT-4
* Clio Renault Sport V6 Phase 2 '03
* Nissan SKYLINE GTS-t Type M '91
* Fiat Coupe Turbo Plus '00

Look closer. There are more races like that than they are of the examples you gave where the AI are using race cars, and certainly far more than any Forza or PGR game has ever offered... so again, the facts do not back up your statements.

The only reason I prefer Forza over GT is because I feel it's more fun, but the game is far from perfect when it comes down to physics.

And you finally got to the truth... its that you prefer it because it's more fun to you... which is a perfectly reasonable opinion. 👍

BTW: The problem with being too realistic is that realism is often not as much "fun" as make believe.

Then GT should not call itself "The real driving simulator" because it is not.

Agreed, nor have I ever said it should... but when products use slogans and marketing that are 100% accurate... flying pigs will be playing hockey in Hell... so why even bring it up.. or are you going to try and suggest Microsoft has never exaggerated and embellished the capabilities of Forza & PGR?

The 20 or so cars I've driven in real life that are in the game all point to the same thing. They were all stock as well since a majority of the people I know do not modify their cars or I was driving one off the dealers lot. If 20 cars say the same thing about virtual physics then I'm inclined to believe the real life car is right and the game is wrong (both Forza and GT).

So let us assume for the moment you are telling the truth, and at age 20 you have driven 20 or so cars that are in the game (although I'm sure I'm not alone in wondering what cars and what games you are refering to) , are you also saying you drove them at the same speeds and on the same or at least similar tracks as GT4, and are you saying you have done this enough to have a reasonable assessment to the actual driving physics?

Because unless I'm mistaken, you also said this:

I haven't driven anyone of the tracks either since I do not live in an area with them or own a car that is capable of taking to them. Other then seeing some of the track I have no experience with them.

And yet, somehow you feel you have enough experience to say that the 20 or so cars you say you have driven do not have realistic driving physics in GT4 let alone also making the claim the same goes for the other 700 cars you never have driven.

Wow...

So you are saying just because you drive a real car you have no idea what it feels like until you drive it on a track? That is quite possibly one of the dumbest points I've heard thus far, if you own a car you know how it feels.

That's not at all what I said and you know it, which makes you what? So maybe the only thing dumb is your assumptions?

What i said, but you have effectively danced around it, is that there is a huge difference if real life physics from racing at a car's limits on a professional track, then driving a car around town, zipping down the freeway, or even driving it above the speed limits on a twisty country road... and more importantly, even having experience in one car doesn't mean you now all of a sudden know how ALL cars drive, which is very much like what you claimed:

However I do drive a car every single day and I understand how the physics of the real world do affect it. Sure I'm not doing 100mph down my local road and slamming on the brakes to slide it around the corner at the stop light, but I do know how certain cars feel in real life and GT doesn't feel like the real thing. As I've said Forza is better but not spot on.

I own a car and I drive that car in real life, I know what they are supposed to feel like...the same with anyone else who drives on a regular bases.

And so you've never driven any of the cars in GT4 in real life at similar speeds on similar tracks...

Case closed.

 

[Dave A]

What i said, but you have effectively danced around it, is that there is a huge difference if real life physics from racing at a car's limits on a professional track, then driving a car around town, zipping down the freeway, or even driving it above the speed limits on a twisty country road... and more importantly, even having experience in one car doesn't mean you now all of a sudden know how ALL cars drive, which is very much like what you claimed.

The physics don't change, no matter where or how hard you drive, physics do not change, I'm assuming I've missunderstood you in that mind. Being on a professional track is no different to beign on a smooth road, minus the legality of it, the cars limit is the cars limit. If you try to take a corner faster than your tyre's can handle, it doesn't matter where you do it you're either understeering or oversteering. I did drive my 306 to the limit, I'm not saying I did lap times as fast the car was capable of, but I drove it to the limit, that is to say that I pushed the suspension and tyre's and what not to what they were capable of and at times I went over a little. The car did not suddenly feel like a different car to the one I drove to work in day in day out, it just felt like I was driving it faster.

 

[Joey D]

The only idea I get is you clearly have forgotten alot about GT4... like how there are over 450 races in GT4 (excluding all the rally "special condition events") and only about 90 are against AI in race cars... that's just 20% of all the races Joey!

Did you miss the part where I said I stopped posting races? There are other ones but I didn't want to make the post any long than it already was.

And yet the fact that the vast majority of the races in GT4 are against stock production cars, and many races wont even allow you to race with a modified car, you use those races as some kind of evidence to support your claim you are forced to race speced production cars!

When I played through the game it felt like I had to use a race spec car in order to win, most of the ralley events would be the same way.

And here's the funny thing... GT4 is flexible enough that yeah... if you want to you can race the AI in a stock production car even though they have race cars, or you can mod a stock production car so that it can compete against the AI. Seriously, you really aren't making any sense at all.

I tried to make a non race spec car compete and the fact is it was over powered and didn't work worth a damn. There is no point to make a car like that when it won't handle correctly or it eats through tires in a lap.

Oh, and please list the 400+ different races in Forza or Forza 2 where the AI use production road cars. Don't worry, you can't. Not only that, but GT4 uses about four times as many different AI cars as Forza 2 as well.

Where did I say Forza had more races? Or that Forza had more cars? Oh that's right I didn't. Quit trying to make me out to be a Forza fanboy because I'm not. If you want I'll tell you the huge list of problems with that game right in this very thread.

And you finally got to the truth... its that you prefer it because it's more fun to you... which is a perfectly reasonable opinion. 👍

It's only slightly more fun since I can see my tire tracks, customise my car a bit more, and I have a paint shop to play around with. That's hardly a huge leap forward. Now Test Drive Unlimited, Burnout, Midnight Club, hell even Need for Speed are fun racing games even though they aren't realistic at all.

Agreed, nor have I ever said it should... but when products use slogans and marketing that are 100% accurate... flying pigs will be playing hockey in Hell... so why even bring it up.. or are you going to try and suggest Microsoft has never exaggerated and embellished the capabilities of Forza & PGR?

Uhhh where did I say you said that? You are just trying to argue worthless points. All I'm saying that is PD should not call GT "true driving simulator" because it isn't. And once again you are trying to make me look like a Forza fanboy when I'm clearly not. I've said countless time, in the past 6 hours, that Forza is not a simulator either and it just a bit more realistic then GT4.

So let us assume for the moment you are telling the truth, and at age 20 you have driven 20 or so cars that are in the game (although I'd like to know what cars and what games), are you also saying you drove them at the same speeds and on the same or at least similar tracks as GT4, and are you saying you have done this enough to have a reasonable assessment to the actual driving physics?

GT4:
A Honda Civic, Mini Cooper, Mini Cooper S, Dodge SRT-4, Chrysler Crossfire, Camaro SS, Toyota Celica, Scion xB, Corvette Z06, Dodge Ram, Ford F-150 Lightning, Honda Element, Chrysler PT Cruiser, Chrysler 300C, Infiniti G35, Pontiac GTO, Pontiac Vibe, VW MKV GTI, Toyota Prius, Subaru WRX, Ford Taurus SHO...that's all I can think of without the list in front of me to see if I'm missing any.

I love how you try to make me out to be a liar on this, it's not hard to drive 20 cars from the game. I bet most people have if they have a license and their family and friends don't mind if you drive their cars.

I've driven most of them up to at least 80mph on the freeway and driving on city streets. You don't need to be on a race track to know how a car is supposed to feel.

And yet, somehow you feel you have enough experience to say that the 20 or so cars you say you have driven do not have realistic driving physics in GT4 let alone also making the claim the same goes for the other 700 cars you never have driven.

And how many cars have you driven on the same tracks? You said you've been on two tracks, but with how many cars? And where those cars in the game?

And if the physics feels off on 20 cars then it's reasonable to say they are probably off on a few other cars as well.

That's not at all what I said and you know it, which makes you what? So maybe the only thing dumb is your assumptions?

That's how I took it.

It seems to me you are letting you GT bias show it's colours on this one. GT is not that great of a game and has a ton of problems when compared with real life physics. Forza is no better and even I, someone who enjoys Forza, can even see that.

 

[Digital-Nitrate]

The physics don't change, no matter where or how hard you drive, physics do not change, I'm assuming I've missunderstood you in that mind. Being on a professional track is no different to beign on a smooth road, minus the legality of it, the cars limit is the cars limit. If you try to take a corner faster than your tyre's can handle, it doesn't matter where you do it you're either understeering or oversteering. I did drive my 306 to the limit, I'm not saying I did lap times as fast the car was capable of, but I drove it to the limit, that is to say that I pushed the suspension and tyre's and what not to what they were capable of and at times I went over a little. The car did not suddenly feel like a different car to the one I drove to work in day in day out, it just felt like I was driving it faster.

Yes, you misunderstood me in that mind.

I never said the physics "change", only that to claim you actually know for a fact how a car handles at specific speeds, under braking at those speeds, and on similar surfaces, similar corner angels, and so on... you must have at least some experience driving in those conditions. Otherwise you are only offering a personal opinion and likely heavily influenced by a personal preference.

Frankly though, the best comparison are from race car drivers who have taken the exact model and year car on the same track, and immediately followed that up with playing the game… or vice versa, and I’ve seen people do that at both Laguna Seca and Infineon in the garage areas, with many “weekend warriors” using GT4 to get some virtual practice time prior to a race, and among them I have never heard them bitch and moan about how unrealistic GT4 was while driving GT4’s version of their car on those two tracks. Go figure.

Interestingly enough, even the Formula 1 phenom, Lewis Hamilton, who nearly won the championship in his rookie year, commented in several interviews how he used Formula One Championship Edition on the PS3 to learn the tracks, and get some virtual practice on.


BTW: Just because two roads may be smooth doesn't mean the car is going to behave the exact same way. There are significant differences to various types of tarmac that effect the way cars drive, but this is taking the topic even farther off track... excuse the pun.

 

[Digital-Nitrate]

It seems to me you are letting you GT bias show it's colours on this one. GT is not that great of a game and has a ton of problems when compared with real life physics. Forza is no better and even I, someone who enjoys Forza, can even see that.

First of all I don't have a bias for GT... look up bias some time.

Second of all, what I have is a desire to focus on facts rather than subjective opinions, and your facts have been out of whack... and each time I point it out, you just throw in another false fact, so clearly this isn't getting us any where.

Glad you think Forza 2 if more fun, and I certainly don't doubt you feel that way. 👍

 

[McLaren]

In your opinion

Sorry, that's fact. GT is a simulator because it simulates car physics to a decent degree.

Not exactley adressing his point, a road car doesn't suddenly start to feel like a race car no matter how hard your driving it.

I'm not saying my TL became a race car. I am saying though, that there is a major difference in feeling when I'm driving the car through a auto-x setup than there is driving it through a dozen street corners.

The car feels smooth and quiet on a daily drive. However, the steering becomes very tight around high speeds, and the brakes really show their performance at higher-than-usual speeds.

What I'm saying is, there is a major difference in feeling for my car when it's being pushed than when it's just being daily driven. Or at least, imho.

 

[Joey D]

I forgot opinions aren't accepted on GTP

 

[McLaren]

I forgot opinions aren't accepted on GTP

How is it an opinion when it's an obvious fact? Gran Turismo is a car simulator whether you like it or not.

Oh btw,

GT4:
A Honda Civic, Mini Cooper, Mini Cooper S, Dodge SRT-4, Chrysler Crossfire, Camaro SS, Toyota Celica, Scion xB, Corvette Z06, Dodge Ram, Ford F-150 Lightning, Honda Element, Chrysler PT Cruiser, Chrysler 300C, Infiniti G35, Pontiac GTO, Pontiac Vibe, VW MKV GTI, Toyota Prius, Subaru WRX, Ford Taurus SHO...that's all I can think of without the list in front of me to see if I'm missing any.

I love how you try to make me out to be a liar on this, it's not hard to drive 20 cars from the game. I bet most people have if they have a license and their family and friends don't mind if you drive their cars.

I've driven most of them up to at least 80mph on the freeway and driving on city streets. You don't need to be on a race track to know how a car is supposed to feel.

Bull crap. Driving 80Mph on a freeway will never tell you how the actual car will do on a race track. Why? Because freeways don't test the boundaries of a car like a race track.

 

[Biggles]

Frankly though, the best comparison are from race car drivers who have taken the exact model and year car on the same track, and immediately followed that up with playing the game… or vice versa, and I’ve seen people do that at both Laguna Seca and Infineon in the garage areas, with many “weekend warriors” using GT4 to get some virtual practice time prior to a race, and among them I have never heard them bitch and moan about how unrealistic GT4 was while driving GT4’s version of their car on those two tracks. Go figure.

Interestingly enough, even the Formula 1 phenom, Lewis Hamilton, who nearly won the championship in his rookie year, commented in several interviews how he used Formula One Championship Edition on the PS3 to learn the tracks, and get some virtual practice on.

I don't think anyone could dispute that the tracks in GT4 are astonishingly close to RL - much more so than Forza's. This is one of the factors that contribute to GT4's "realism". However:

crappy AI, crappy collision physics & no damage is not realistic.

I've been playing mostly F1:CE over the last couple of weeks. Can't be sure about the physics, because it's been a while since I took an F1 car for a spin but the racing is exciting because of:

good AI, good collision physics, & damage.

The reason I'm a bit down on GT4 at the minute is because I came to realise that what F1:CE reminds me of is:

💡

Forza...

 

[Joey D]

There is no way I will ever consider GT4 a simulator after playing GTR2 which is far superior.

And if you continued reading, I drove them on other roads as well. You get an idea of what a car is like, acceleration, braking, basic handling by driving a car in the city. Oh and also if you would have continued reading my other post you would see that I have driven the cars in GT slower and more like a normal car to see how they were.

What makes you the authority on this oh by the way?

 

[McLaren]

There is no way I will ever consider GT4 a simulator after playing GTR2 which is far superior.

Yes, so GTR2 is a superior sim. That doesn't mean GT isn't a sim.

And if you continued reading, I drove them on other roads as well. You get an idea of what a car is like, acceleration, braking, basic handling by driving a car in the city. Oh and also if you would have continued reading my other post you would see that I have driven the cars in GT slower and more like a normal car to see how they were.

Don't believe that either. I do that crap everyday, and yet the car never feels like it did on the track.

What makes you the authority on this oh by the way?

Because I have actual track experience with my car. Where's your's to say a car on the race track doesn't feel different from driving it 40Mph down a street. Plus, the def. supports Gran Turismo being a simulator as it does very close or exactly to what the def. says.

 

[Joey D]

So you don't believe me that I've driven cars on city streets before and that I've drive the cars normally in a game? Oh well suit yourself, I guess you know my life better then I do.

 

[McLaren]

So you don't believe me that I've driven cars on city streets before and that I've drive the cars normally in a game? Oh well suit yourself, I guess you know my life better then I do.

Wow, read it again. I don't believe driving a car on the street at 80Mph will show you how it feels on a race track at all. The conditions are never the same....

 

[Joey D]

It still gives you an idea of how a car is supposed to drive and feel. If I drive a Dodge Ram in real life, something I have done more then once, and then drive one in the game at 70mph they feel completely different. I'm more inclined to believe real life. Cars feel the same whether they are on a track or on a road, physics do not change.

 

[DarthTurismo]

It still gives you an idea of how a car is supposed to drive and feel. If I drive a Dodge Ram in real life, something I have done more then once, and then drive one in the game at 70mph they feel completely different. I'm more inclined to believe real life. Cars feel the same whether they are on a track or on a road, physics do not change.

sorry to join the arguement here.... but i do not believe that a car will feel the same whether it is on the track or road..... you will discover a cars limits much easier on a track than road..... and yes i have driven my car (supra) on both road and track and it behaved differently....

also explain why some cars are rated highly for their handling on the road but when taken out onto a track they fall apart.... (read any review about the current golf gti) it clearly states that it is an awesome road car but degenerates into a plough understeering dog on a track.....

at the end of the day..... a computer game will never ever feel exactly like driving a real car until they can implement g-forces into the seat of yr pantz..... but be that as it may.... i still get a kick out of playing all my favourite car sims including gt....

my response to anyone will be simply this: if u love forza and hate gt! then play forza and leave gt alone.... if u love gt and hate forza... pgr... etc etc... then stick to gt and don't play the others.... no one is holding guns to our heads... sure everyone is entitled to their opinion on things... but really what is the point of dogging this game and dogging that game... just like everything else in this world these games are all judged subjectively.... some will love some will hate.... others will bitch n moan just for the hell of it because it's in their nature.... well i've said my peace.... now i have less than 11hours before download time

 

[Wolfe]

Yes, so GTR2 is a superior sim. That doesn't mean GT isn't a sim.

I can appreciate the sentiment that a game doesn't have to be almost perfect to be worthy of the term "simulator," but you can't tell me that the borderline between "sim" and "not a sim" is clearly defined and doesn't change from person to person. It could be argued that GT4's understeery nature was developed to make the game more accessible to the average player (less fishtailing) -- is that enough to boot it down into the category of "arcade" or "arcade-sim?" There's a degree of subjectivity here.

If we simply included everything that made an honest attempt at realism, no matter how successful they were at the task, there would be some really, really bad "simulators" out there.

...I’ve seen people do that at both Laguna Seca and Infineon in the garage areas, with many “weekend warriors” using GT4 to get some virtual practice time prior to a race, and among them I have never heard them bitch and moan about how unrealistic GT4 was while driving GT4’s version of their car on those two tracks. Go figure.

They're primarily using it to try to improve their line; the sense of speed is different and they might not pay attention to their speedo during a race; GT4's biggest flaws involve oversteer and loss of traction, two things racers avoid at all costs; unless you've watched them closely, none of us have any clue which tires they're using in the game; they probably aren't aware of other driving sims and therefore have nothing to compare GT4 to, making it seem pointless to complain about the only option they have.

 

[unv412]

sorry to chime in so late but I've found most cars (even RWD cars SHOCK!!!) will understeer when pushed, and that this phenomenon is more pronounced at a track because the track is smoother and and has more space for you to let the car run wide.On the street (in the same car) you would be less inclined to smoothley build up understeer as the consequenses of running wide ( very little space to work with anyways) could be catastrophic, not to mention lifting off in a hurry and unsettling the car even more.Instead you tend to make judgements on setting the car up for the corner with little adjustments and hope for maybe a little oversteer (to make it more fun) on the way out.By the way my credential as a hoon in Sydney OZ are exemplery Managed to blow my clutch the other week after spending my 20 minute trip home from work wheelspining in the wet....apparently 20minutes is too much for a Skyline clutch????

 

[Joey D]

Did we forget that there are street circuits in GT? Surely the road on a street course should be the same as the street itself. Also I might be thinking of another game but isn't there cobble stone like pavement in the GT games as well?

 

[McLaren]

Did we forget that there are street circuits in GT? Surely the road on a street course should be the same as the street itself. Also I might be thinking of another game but isn't there cobble stone like pavement in the GT games as well?

Yes, there are, but are you going to say your experience on Michigan roads allows you to make a conclusion of how a car will feel on roads around the world, not to mention that unlike GT, you're not actually racing around them?
There can be some awfully dramatic changes in a car's feeling after driving on US roads, and then on EU roads.

Besides that though, I think it's safe to say Polyphony has kept every circuit, street or track, smooth again....

 

[Joey D]

Does it matter? Driving 50 mph on a GT and driving 50mph does not feel like the same thing, not matter where you are in the world.

There is a lot of blatant GT fanboyism in this thread because some of you think it can do no wrong. As I've said I don't think it's a bad game, I did like it at one time, but it is not a simulator no matter how hard you want it to be...and I'm not the only one that thinks this.

 

[amar212]

Everybody has it's own idea what does the word "SIMULATOR" represents.

And none of the "simulators" on the market are true simulators. Period. So, discussion about it is so damn pointless.

Paris will cry again if this continue, and she is serious about it.

 

[Maven]

There is a lot of blatant GT fanboyism in this thread ...

Mmm, I don't think that's really it, it's more that you are unwilling to consider that you might be wrong. I'll be another person to chime in and say that regular street driving won't give you an idea about how a car will handle on a track or other 'racing' situation.

Another thing to consider is that typically people will race on GT with Sports or Racing tyres, which will change the handling of the car dramatically. Have you tried playing it with Street tyres? Oh, as well, a lot of cars nowadays have ABS and traction control, which a lot of people turn off in GT4, have you tried setting them up to mimic your own car? (or your parents' car?)

 

[Joey D]

Yes I have attempted to make the cars as life like as possible even though I typically don't play the game with them. I've tried all the tire combinations I could. I've also played around with settings to see what I could do...and as I've said Forza has the same problems.

 

[FoolKiller]

There is a lot of blatant GT fanboyism in this thread because some of you think it can do no wrong. As I've said I don't think it's a bad game, I did like it at one time, but it is not a simulator no matter how hard you want it to be...and I'm not the only one that thinks this.

On a GT fan site? Who'd have guessed?

Just by the nature of the site you are going to run into more people who like GT or think it is the best on console, than those who don't.

I can't compare Forza 2 to anything, but I know I preferred GT4 over Forza. Something about Forza felt floaty to me. I thought GT4 felt more connected to real life driving, despite the tendency toward understeer.

To me the Prologue demo had incredible physics compared to GT4 and I suspect it is a good omen for GT5.


But no matter what they do it will never feel completely real because in the end it is just a game, so preferences will come down to a combination of personal taste and driving style.

My personal thought is that both do a fairly decent job at simulation as both have had professional drivers hop in and drive with little adaptation needed. Neither will lose the battle to the other because various people have different tastes and sometime just simple console loyalty will be a deciding factor.

Personally, I think this whole debate is pointless because usually the reasoning behind liking one or the other is not something that can be debated as correct or incorrect. I mean, some people prefer Need for Speed games. They aren't wrong, just hopeless, er....I mean, they have different tastes.

 

[Joey D]

Fair enough FK, I'd +rep your post if I could since you do make a good point.