Do you think that GT is losing the battle against Forza?

[ChadSpeed]

The real battle imo will be decided on which game provides the best online expiriance, and heres where i see Forza series having the edge.

1: PI system: love it or hate it, the PI system is a great idea, it allows you to take pretty much take any car you like and race it competativly in more than one class.
Example: take a lotus exige, it starts out in B class, its very competative in its starting class, but you can upgrade the car to be competative in A class and S class aswell and it can still hold its own, due to the large variety of upgrades on offer, meaning you can take the car you like most and upgrade it to the class of your choise and still remain competative.

(im not saying the PI system in forza2 is 100% perfect, but its far better than what im currently seeing in GT)

2: Damage & penaltys: car damage is vital to racing online, if you wall ride or shunt other players really hard you damage your car, pratically ending your chances of a win, this is very important as this feature ensures that the majority of players try to avoid car contact or wall riding during online play, of coarse there is a small minority of players who dont drive clean or try to cause crashes, but that reality exists for all online racing games and GT5 will be no exception.

3: custom paint jobs: I cant big up enough how awesome having your own cusom paint livery is when racing online, its gives your vehicle that feeling of personality and indervidualisim, that sets your car apart from everyone elses, your vehicle becomes instantly recognizable by your friends and others your have raced with before adding to that sence of idervidualism/personality.

Sure there will be a few daft designs, but in reality most of the custom paint jobs you see online attempt to create a realistic race livery look to there designs, some are even exact copies of existing real life liverys not provided by the developers.

theres nother sweeter than taking out your custom designed "Vitafone" S class MC12 and kicking some major as, its a really great feeling seeing your awesome looking designs in replay mode after a hard days online racing.

Coarse Cutting: Atm from what i have seen theres no penaltys for coarse cutting in GT5P or GT:HD, that would stop most people from cutting corners to win races, atleast in Forza2 if you cut a corner your car slows down to a snails pace effectly ruining your chances of catching up to 1st place, so kudos to turn 10 for that.

another thing is the upgrades, in Forza2 you can take a pretty much any car and make it waaaaaaaaaay quicker that it came in stock form, GT3/GT4 really didnt give you that much to work with imo, sure you could get the engines up to some serious horsepower, but in when it came to Aerodynamics or improved body parts GT was lacking imo, the only game in the GT series that was on par with Forza2 in this area was GT1 with it Race body kits, but since then then series has imo gone backwards in regaurdes to upgrading your cars, giving you less not more.

You have some great points, I agree with all of them. Its so silly to me that Turn 10 and PD can't look around at what the other is doing. If Turn 10 would just watch a replay in GT, and PD would just race FM2 online they could learn some valuable stuff.

 

[toyota_gt1]

GT is not even close to losing the battle to Forza. There are only a couple of things that Forza has that GT doesn't.....insane amount of custimization (spelling) and damage models. The custimization isn't really that important to me. If i want custimization, i'll just pick up a NFS game. I won't however because I don't like NFS games. I suspect damage to possibly be in GT5 as downloadable content. If not, it will definatly be in GT6 which might have to wait for the PS4 since the PS3 has been out for over 2 years now and GT5 won't be released for at least another 9 months.

 

[Joey D]

The wait time is what is killing the GT series, Forza 3 could easily be out by the end of the year or beginning of 09. I understand they want to make the game perfect but the delays are killing it which is one thing I personally do not like. Also I hope GT5 isn't like GT4 in the way that we waited forever for it and it was only GT3 with a more cars and tracks, and I still think GT3 is better.

I still have more fun playing Forza but I will get GT5 when it comes out and see how that is. I'm just hoping the emphasis is more on building up a normal car to race instead of using racecars or even higher end sports cars and super cars.

 

[Mr. Boy]

The wait time is what is killing the GT series, Forza 3 could easily be out by the end of the year or beginning of 09. I understand they want to make the game perfect but the delays are killing it which is one thing I personally do not like. Also I hope GT5 isn't like GT4 in the way that we waited forever for it and it was only GT3 with a more cars and tracks, and I still think GT3 is better.

That makes me wonder how many cars the final game will have. Surely they can't go for a crazy number like 700 again. 300 to 350 cars would hopefully let the game go gold by the end of the year. I really don't want to see the next GT delayed a dozen times again.

 

[Kryz11]

If new Forza 2 game is 30 dollars right now in about less then a year. GT4s price dropped down after many years. So im guessing GT is still winning so far

After playing the GT5P game, Forza2 feels like a arcade game now.
So I don't think GT is loosing the battle.

 

[Mr Fox]

I still have more fun playing Forza but I will get GT5 when it comes out and see how that is. I'm just hoping the emphasis is more on building up a normal car to race instead of using racecars or even higher end sports cars and super cars.

thats the main point of my argument as to why forza series has the edge, its the ability to take a regulare car and upgrade it to the point where its a serious racer.

theres absolulty nothing "ricer" about being able to heavly modify regulare cars to the point where they are as good if not better than custom made race cars or supercars.

this following Video shows you exacly what im talking about, seriously why the **** dont PD give there customers the nessesary upgrades to get the normal or street cars up to this level of performance.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g4BIql8sWC0

Forza2 delivers this type of performance, if PD dont come down from their Ivory tower and look around and see what the competition is doing there going to get left behind.

man that vid is awsome im gonna watch it again just for kicks

 

[Joey D]

That is one thing I really like about Forza, I can turn an everyday car into a race car. I think this is something PD could pull off quite well and really take GT to that next level.

 

[isamu]

The wait time is what is killing the GT series, Forza 3 could easily be out by the end of the year or beginning of 09. I understand they want to make the game perfect but the delays are killing it which is one thing I personally do not like. Also I hope GT5 isn't like GT4 in the way that we waited forever for it and it was only GT3 with a more cars and tracks, and I still think GT3 is better.

I still have more fun playing Forza but I will get GT5 when it comes out and see how that is. I'm just hoping the emphasis is more on building up a normal car to race instead of using racecars or even higher end sports cars and super cars.

great post and agreed 100%

 

[Leonidae]

well, now that the prologue seems to be epic already with 70+ cars and hi def graphics, I believe that actual GT5 will be BIBLICAL. must.. get .. PS3.. soon.. so MFT can continue.. in hi def..

 

[nissan tuner]

GT is not even close to losing the battle to Forza. There are only a couple of things that Forza has that GT doesn't.....insane amount of customization

if you call 3-4 body kit brands for Japanese and some American cars "insane amount of customization" you are mistaken.

 

[Rykon Zero]

And the paint shop.

 

[Tenacious D]

A couple of points.

- I can take any sports car in Gran Turismo and modify it to insane levels of performance, just like Forza1/2. I've taken a few over 1000HP, but it's stupidly powerful and a bear to control at full speed, just like real life. Forza is too forgiving in that respect.

- In GT5 Prologue, you get penalties for cutting corners now. You slow down to first gear and there's a time delay till you can go full throttle.

So right now, the only edge Forza has is the paint shop and body customization. But I'm hopeful that Kazunori-dono is as conscious of this aspect of motorsports as he is drifting and others. And aren't we getting a drift mode once again? He knows what's popular in the racing game world, and is going to do everything he can to deliver it.

 

[McLaren]

A couple of points.

- I can take any sports car in Gran Turismo and modify it to insane levels of performance, just like Forza1/2. I've taken a few over 1000HP, but it's stupidly powerful and a bear to control at full speed, just like real life. Forza is too forgiving in that respect.

- In GT5 Prologue, you get penalties for cutting corners now. You slow down to first gear and there's a time delay till you can go full throttle.

So right now, the only edge Forza has is the paint shop and body customization. But I'm hopeful that Kazunori-dono is as conscious of this aspect of motorsports as he is drifting and others. And aren't we getting a drift mode once again? He knows what's popular in the racing game world, and is going to do everything he can to deliver it.

You are very right about the first part. Forza fans love to criticize GT for letting you go ridiculously fast speeds without certain equipment.

Well, that same negative applies to Forza 2. I have a 240Mph capable Honda NSX-R that has no body work and only produces 711Hp.

 

[BMfan]

Forza is so so,i would rather play gthd and gt5 demo for 12 hours straight than 2 hours of forza.I have played forza and the only bit of fun i had was when a mate and i started trying to crash into each other at very high speed.It was loaned to him to download some stuff(he has internet the owner doesn't)

 

[Spec M]

Forza's physics are just to off for me. Most FR cars oversteer and loose grip in the rear wheels just by disabling TCS. For ex. even a low torque car like an S15 Spec B with TCS off the rear wheels spin at every turn. Tracks and times arent very accurate. You can drive a perfect race and have a tightly tuned car but someone that has a car with all HP mods (particularly 69 Chargers, Comaros, Stingrays, Eclipse GSX etc) can crash at every corner but manage pass you on every straight.

 

[unimental]

You can drive a perfect race and have a tightly tuned car but someone that has a car with all HP mods (particularly 69 Chargers, Comaros, Stingrays, Eclipse GSX etc) can crash at every corner but manage pass you on every straight.

Simple solution: set damage to full. Those high-HP beasts dominate a lot of the hot-lap leaderboards, but being able to actually race one competitively takes an even greater amount of skill.

And if GT5 doesn't have an option to turn off the online "grip penalty" applied to lead cars, the finer points of tuning your ride aren't really going to matter.

 

[Wolfe]

Forza's physics are just to off for me. Most FR cars oversteer and loose grip in the rear wheels just by disabling TCS. For ex. even a low torque car like an S15 Spec B with TCS off the rear wheels spin at every turn.

In real life there are RWD cars with significantly less torque than the S15 that can spin their wheels in corners.

 

[ROAD_DOGG33J]

- I can take any sports car in Gran Turismo and modify it to insane levels of performance, just like Forza1/2. I've taken a few over 1000HP, but it's stupidly powerful and a bear to control at full speed, just like real life. Forza is too forgiving in that respect.

How so?

Which GT?

 

[Dave A]

In real life there are RWD cars with significantly less torque than the S15 that can spin their wheels in corners.

I think some people underestimate how powerful horsepower actually is and how much it can do if you don't use it right.

 

[Spec M]

In real life there are RWD cars with significantly less torque than the S15 that can spin their wheels in corners.

I didnt say there arent. The point im making is that they went a bit overvboard with the physics when it comes to most of the RWDs. When I say break traction I mean the rear-end swings out (oversteer).

Im comparing a STOCK S15 in Forza with TCS off to a STOCK S15 in GT with TCS off. Horse power has nothing to do with it, I can get the same problem with a Miata on Forza. Im pretty sure I didnt "underestimate" the HP, and I believe it would have more to do with torque. Does anyone have any actual track experience with a vehicle with disabled/or no TCS. Because I do (83 Comaro 305ci), and it didnt make the car's tail swing out (oversteer).

 

[Wolfe]

I didnt say there arent. The point im making is that they went a bit overvboard with the physics when it comes to most of the RWDs. When I say break traction I mean the rear-end swings out (oversteer).

Im comparing a STOCK S15 in Forza with TCS off to a STOCK S15 in GT with TCS off. Horse power has nothing to do with it, I can get the same problem with a Miata on Forza. Im pretty sure I didnt "underestimate" the HP, and I believe it would have more to do with torque.

Being derived from torque, peak horsepower is more relevant than you may think, particularly if the engine is in the upper RPM range. The torque curve is what's really helpful here.

In any case, torque and horsepower only explain power oversteer. What few people realize (I'm not assuming that you do or don't) is that oversteer is more than gunning the throttle and hanging on -- it can be induced in several different ways, and is dependent on several different factors. Once you're sideways, the car's ability to power oversteer is what determines how long the slide will last.

Does anyone have any actual track experience with a vehicle with disabled/or no TCS. Because I do (83 Comaro 305ci), and it didnt make the car's tail swing out (oversteer).

My car is about half as powerful as the S15, originally producing ~100hp and ~110lb.ft of torque in 1985. Last September I attended an autocross on a small oval and found that even with the relatively slow speeds and gradual corners, I could feel that I was on the cusp of oversteer through much of the course. I've been driving my car for over three years now, and I'm confident that given a large open area and free reign to screw around, I could get it truly sideways. I've already done so more than once on dry pavement.

On other occasions another friend of mine has kicked the tail out on a Mk.II Celica-Supra, also on dry pavement, and that car produced 170hp and 170lb.ft of torque in 1985. Having driven the car myself, I know it's more than capable of the feat.

200+ horsepower and pound-feet of torque may not seem like much in videogameland, but it's nothing to laugh at in the real world, and will catch out anyone not paying attention.



Now, having said all of that, Forza's oversteer is far from perfect. However, its simulation of tires breaking loose is one of its stronger points. From my experience, the two biggest problem areas are that A. cars exhibit too much forward momentum and don't "arc" enough towards the inside of the corner while oversteering, and B. the virtual driver sometimes doesn't seem to countersteer as fast as a real driver might.

 

[Spec M]

Why are we getting so technical. Can I just simply state this without someone trying to correct me. Im a fan of the S15 Spec B Aero and the first one I had in GT4 has about 315hp and handle like a absolute dream, the factory tires are great and it has no weight reduction. I purchased this same exact car in Forza and I was disappointed with the handling in its stock form. To get descent traction I bought DOT spec tires, rear wind, and suspension (dont remember what level). But all this for a machine with factory power. Someone was off with there physics, was it PD or Turn 10. Im going to have to say Turn 10 given the fact that PD has about 10yrs more experience.

 

[shaka]

lol at forza graphics.

nice try though.

 

[Spec M]

lol at forza graphics.

nice try though.

I know right, the physique of some cars are a little off and look more hand drawn and then rendered instead of photo-realistic. Come on Microsoft this is Xbox 360 and GT4s graphics are still more convincing

 

[Perfect Balance]

Why are we getting so technical. Can I just simply state this without someone trying to correct me. Im a fan of the S15 Spec B Aero and the first one I had in GT4 has about 315hp and handle like a absolute dream, the factory tires are great and it has no weight reduction. I purchased this same exact car in Forza and I was disappointed with the handling in its stock form. To get descent traction I bought DOT spec tires, rear wind, and suspension (dont remember what level). But all this for a machine with factory power. Someone was off with there physics, was it PD or Turn 10. Im going to have to say Turn 10 given the fact that PD has about 10yrs more experience.

Why not get technical? You were saying that Forza is too far off in terms of physics. Isn't that comparing to real life? In real life, 315hp is a massive amount of power, enough to spin all through 3rd gear on a car like the s15 with street tires. In gt4 you can probably barely spin second without starting the spin in 1st gear first, or turning to get the back a little loose.

 

[Vtec Inside]

I know right, the physique of some cars are a little off and look more hand drawn and then rendered instead of photo-realistic. Come on Microsoft this is Xbox 360 and GT4s graphics are still more convincing

So true. Forza's cars do sound better though.

 

[Spec M]

Why not get technical? You were saying that Forza is too far off in terms of physics. Isn't that comparing to real life? In real life, 315hp is a massive amount of power, enough to spin all through 3rd gear on a car like the s15 with street tires. In gt4 you can probably barely spin second without starting the spin in 1st gear first, or turning to get the back a little loose.

Im not even going to try and make sense of what your saying. Read the post again carefully and you will find that the GT4 S15 with 315hp is not the problem, the the stock one on Forza was. Iam not the only Forza player that is annoyed by this, its a well known problem. This is the third time ive went over this... Please comprehend next time you reply to a post so no ones time is wasted.



>Vtec: Yea the sound is a 100 times greater but coming from a Xbox360 it better be.

 

[Perfect Balance]

Im not even going to try and make sense of what your saying. Read the post again carefully and you will find that the GT4 S15 with 315hp is not the problem, the the stock one on Forza was. Iam not the only Forza player that is annoyed by this, its a well known problem. This is the third time ive went over this... Please comprehend next time you reply to a post so no ones time is wasted.



>Vtec: Yea the sound is a 100 times better but on a 360 compared to PS2 it better be lol

I read your post, a few times actually while I was replying. I'm pointing out that while you thought the GT4 S15 wasn't the problem, and the Forza one was, the GT4 S15 isn't nearly as realistic as the Forza one. The drifting is a bit better in gt4, but just in terms of how the cars break traction, Forza is a lot more realistic. You cannot take a 250hp (basically stock s15), hit full throttle and just wait until it regains grip (much like gt4) It's going to take a bit of control, especially when it starts to grip. If you're a bit sideways in a real car when that happens it really swings the car around. (much like forza)

Forza replicated low to moderate speed grip loss very well, much better than gt4 at least. You can't even do a donut or a decent handbrake turn in gt4.

EDIT: My post was very easy to make sense of. Do you have trouble reading?

 

[Spec M]

Yes your totally right 👍

 

[Perfect Balance]

Yes your totally right 👍

So much for having a nice discussion.