Do you think that GT is losing the battle against Forza?

[PaleRider]

" My personal thought is that both do a fairly decent job at simulation as both have had professional drivers hop in and drive with little adaptation needed. "


You mean Bob?

 

[un_peacekeeper]

Question: Does X360 have a decent wheel yet? Something like the DFP or better?

 

[Raitziger]

Question: Does X360 have a decent wheel yet? Something like the DFP or better?

No. So driving feel of Forza and GT are not comparable on same level(of wheels).

 

[FoolKiller]

" My personal thought is that both do a fairly decent job at simulation as both have had professional drivers hop in and drive with little adaptation needed. "


You mean Bob?

Maybe I should have thrown in talented.

But for both games when they premiere them they always have some professional race car driver show up and drive his car on a track he likes using a wheel and they usually get times relatively close to their real-life times.

Question: Does X360 have a decent wheel yet? Something like the DFP or better?

It has a wheel, but between mediocre reviews from other gamers and a recall because it could start a fire I wouldn't recommend it.

 

[Joey D]

The wheel for the 360 isn't very good, but then again I've never found a wheel I actually like.

 

[Stevisiov]

Try the logitech G25, or if you are looking for something a little more affordable, a Logitech Driving force pro.

 

[Wolfe]

But for both games when they premiere them they always have some professional race car driver show up and drive his car on a track he likes using a wheel and they usually get times relatively close to their real-life times.

It's hard to find a big-name driving sim that didn't have something like this at launch. Hell, for Enthusia, Konami interviewed several automotive industry representatives from around the globe in addition to a couple of Japanese racing drivers (if you're interested, you can find them here).

No matter which game, it's all marketing, and you rarely know for sure if they've tried any other sims (any remotely-realistic game will seem excellent if you have nothing to compare it to). So for those reasons, although I don't disagree with what the interviewees said about Enthusia, I don't try to present their words as some sort of gospel. It's only fair, considering the skepticism I have for the similar appraisals of Forza and Gran Turismo.

 

[Supercar_Killer]

Try the logitech G25, or if you are looking for something a little more affordable, a Logitech Driving force pro.

Last time a mate of mine tried to put a G25 on his 360, it killed his system.
Are there cnosole specific G25's like other wheels? Or is it compatible with all next gen consoles and pc? or is it just microsoft being microsoft and making their console not compatible with the rest of the world?

 

[Biggles]

Any driving game is some kind of simulator. How close the physics are to RL is another matter.

I personally have enjoyed driving in Forza, GT4 & Enthusia. IMO the DFP & G25 make for a better driving experience in GT4 & Enthusia than in Forza, but the racing is superior in Forza irrespective of the physics because Forza has better AI, better collision physics & damage (not to mention online). These elements are also the reason I'm really enjoying F1:CE at the minute.

If GT5 does not dramatically improve in these areas, then, regardless of how beautiful it looks, it will be losing the battle against Forza, as far as I'm concerned.

 

[Joey D]

GT4's AI was awful and while Forza 2's was better I don't think it was really anything to write home about.

 

[McLaren]

Last time a mate of mine tried to put a G25 on his 360, it killed his system.
Are there cnosole specific G25's like other wheels? Or is it compatible with all next gen consoles and pc? or is it just microsoft being microsoft and making their console not compatible with the rest of the world?

The G25 only works on the PS2/3 & PC. Microsoft only allowed Logitech to make 1 wheel for them, and from my experience with it, it's a much better wheel than that wear-out-in-1 year wheel MS backs with full support.

 

[Wolfe]

...better collision physics...

If that's referring to Forza 2, they're not exactly what I would call "excellent." The whole "tap the wall ever so gently with the tail of your car and do a complete spin every single time" thing gets old really fast. I know the idea is to stay on the track, but no one is perfect, especially when they're just screwing around for fun on the Nürburgring and may or may not be sober.

 

[boci]

You guys have to realize that GT4 came out before either forza 1 or forza 2 so they didnt have any competition on the market for when it was released, so this will be the first GT game that has existing competition and i think they are doing a good job in making their game the best on the market.

 

[Tenacious D]

I have no idea what you mean by cheesy.

I'm not that familiar with Forza 2, but IMO even Forza 1 was superior in "presentation" - ie. more polished - to GT4. Where GT4 was superior was in quantity & variety of cars & (especially) tracks, & in the realism of the graphics (especially in the superb replays). On the other hand, Forza 1 was significantly superior in the AI, collision physics & of course, damage, as well as offering online. All this meant that Forza 1 provided a far superior racing experience than GT4.

I'm gonna have to seltzer water you on this.

First of all, having spent almost a year playing Forza and six months on FM2, I have to add some dissenting opinion here. The presentation in Forza 1 was kind of like Need For Speed, and I expect that's because much of Turn 10 was lured away from EA's NFS team. That's not a bad thing, it just means it has the feel of a street racing game. Junkie XL's music helped in that regard too.

Second, going back to play Forza 1, I had my eyes opened in a big way. It truly is one of the most awful, horrible racers ever. Mostly this has to do with lack of FFB steering (NOT rumble, kiddies), but other factors include the iffy tire sounds and decidedly MS/NFS physics, which were okay, but had plenty of things wrong with them. A big problem I had was re-learning how to brake, as it was slow to kick in, and re-learning the sounds of the tires to judge how well I was holding grip. Furthermore, the A.I. sucked BADLY! They were just horrible. They tried to wreck you, and I have one replay where a car decided to stop in the shadowed straight on the Sunset Oval, right in my path. It had no problems and had no damage. The only purpose was to park so I'd more than likely hit it. If they were humans, they'd be banned from all the servers.

Forza 2 is distinctly improved all the way around. The bot drivers have interesting personalities and don't try to kill you. I'm of the opinion that someone from Turn 10 read my suggestions for GT5, because many things in FM2 seem eerily similar. On the other hand, Forza 2 has a distinct genetic connection with FM1. Some of the issues:

• As stated elsewhere, the cars have always refused to lean around turns for some reason.
• Oversteer. It's MUCH worse in Forza 2. Practically every car oversteers like the steering model is messed up.
• Tire dynamics, which are interestingly modelled. But the loss of grip seems to always be smooth. Grip lost and regained rarely has any snap at all. It's very mushy.
• Oh, and the tire sounds. MUCH worse. They used a Buick with low pressure tires (WHY?? one reason only) so everything including Miatas and Minis sound like SUVs. And the tires only make a slight chuffy sound as you push the grip, and don't really start complaining until you start to lose it. And sometimes I'd lose grip with no tire sounds to start with at all.
• Yanking the wheel can restore grip in a slide.
• Yawing is very strange. Every car, big or small, has the same period, and it doesn't vary.
• Bugs... ZOMG the bugs. The game will occasionally freak out, flick to rear view for a second, then drop a gear - damaging my engine in the process and slowing me down. Worse, it will get confused and pull full hard left or right, sometimes for the full duration of the race! Very NOT fun. The vinyls you lay down in the paint shop slide around over time. VERY frustrating to have to fix your car every so often. And if it's a locked livery you can't get to, you're out of luck. And then there are the freezes and crashes.
• The replays in Forza 2 are worse than in FM1. One series of camera positions, every lap, over and over.
• There's more but it's already after 3am here.

Even more, the music in Forza 1 was quirky and dopey sometimes, save for the wonderful menu music JunkieXL did. But Forza 2 hands down has to have the WORST soundtrack in gaming history. It sounds like some bottom of the list garbage from a Seattle college station.

Gran Turismo is slick, polished and tasty, and the music is delightful - save for the rap and industrial stuff. Watching replays with music tracks is SO unbelievably refreshing. I went back to GT4 from Forza 1 and thought it was MUCH better. For that matter, I went back from Forza 2 and was amazed how well it stacked up all the way around! And this on a console fully TWO generations behind the 360.

Polyphony does a few things better than any other game company I've ever seen.

• Connect you tangibly to the car.
• Give you a great view of the track. With GT4 and 5, this is especially true.
• Provide tire sounds which are a fantastic tool to judge how well your car is gripping the road.

Digital: I'm surprised that you (or anyone) would think that Forza is "easier" than GT4. IMO the Forza physics make the driving much more difficult than GT4 - the braking & steering in GT4 is just way more forgiving.

When you combine that with an aggressive & tough AI (perhaps too much so), much more realistic collision physics, & damage, you've got a far more challenging racing experience to deal with. Let's put in this way, in GT4, with the same car, I would expect to smoke the AI on any course - I generally have to give away 30 - 40% horsepower to the AI in order for it to give me a close race. In Forza, winning against an equally matched AI car is extremely difficult, even on the "Medium" setting, let alone the "Hard" setting.

In Gran Turismo, the car is a partner more than an opponent and works with me, save for certain examples. In Forza, it's the other way around. Except for wimpy D Class cars, I have to fight the cars like unruly girlfriends every step of the way.

To be honest, I've found much of the racing in GT4's "career" mode to be rather tedious - a chore to complete to gain more cars & advance through the game. After winning the race I would very rarely consider re-running it. In comparison, much of the racing in Forza's "career" mode is challenging & interesting & there are many races that I re-ran many, many times, for fun!

While I agree that GT4 had a gob of wussy races with what I refer to "dinkmobiles," I wouldn't change a thing about GT4, except possibly to pull trucks out. But I know some people luves those trucks.

PD did a masterful job with the car modelling & the tracks in GT4, which really contributes to the superb sense of "realism". This is enhanced by the excellent wheel support. But the actual physics leaves a lot to be desired & without decent AI & collision physics, & with no damage, the "sim" aspect is seriously compromised.

Eh, we're going to have to agree to differ on those.

I've driven most of them up to at least 80mph on the freeway and driving on city streets. You don't need to be on a race track to know how a car is supposed to feel.

As said before, there's a something of a jekyl and hyde thing going on with cars pushed to their limits. A relative of mine autocrosses in his Nissan group, and his Sentra Spec V was showing up a few Corvettes. I got to ride with him and that "family" sedan suddenly took on a whole new personality. It's like a guitar taken from polite jazz music to metal and prog extremes, or any of a multitude of allusions. You just have to experience it yourself to understand.

Another thing is, driving a decent sports car even 90mph, unless it has rock hard suspension and tires is going to seem... effortless, unless you're whipping around turns threatening to eat a telephone pole. I'm really surprised at how 80mph speeds seem like nothing. I can practically watch every spec of asphalt come up to me almost at my leisure.

It seems to me you are letting you GT bias show it's colours on this one. GT is not that great of a game and has a ton of problems when compared with real life physics. Forza is no better and even I, someone who enjoys Forza, can even see that.

Well... but that's just your bias showing here. You say Forza has issues too, but... you just don't care because you loves you some Forza. I think you just need to recognize this and let it go at that.

sorry to join the arguement here.... but i do not believe that a car will feel the same whether it is on the track or road..... you will discover a cars limits much easier on a track than road..... and yes i have driven my car (supra) on both road and track and it behaved differently....

also explain why some cars are rated highly for their handling on the road but when taken out onto a track they fall apart.... (read any review about the current golf gti) it clearly states that it is an awesome road car but degenerates into a plough understeering dog on a track.....

at the end of the day..... a computer game will never ever feel exactly like driving a real car until they can implement g-forces into the seat of yr pantz..... but be that as it may.... i still get a kick out of playing all my favourite car sims including gt....

Dude! A fellow Supra owner! *high fives!*

I can't improve on that one bit. +1.

It (360) has a wheel, but between mediocre reviews from other gamers and a recall because it could start a fire I wouldn't recommend it.

Er... okay, I'm going out on a limb here and recommending the MS FFB Wheel. Mine broke after two months of rather gentle handling. It still looks like new. And it's not as tight or well connected as the DF Pro in GT. But you have to drive Forza 2 with forcefeedback, or you're missing out on the good aspects.

 

[Scaff]

I've driven most of them up to at least 80mph on the freeway and driving on city streets. You don't need to be on a race track to know how a car is supposed to feel.

I both agree and disagree with this point.

What I agree with is that you will of course get a feel for a car on the road, but only to a certain degree, as unless you drive on the road like a total Muppet then you are not going to get even close to the full limits of the vast majority of cars.

Public roads are designed and constructed in a totally different manner to tracks, from the layout of the corners, the radius' present, to the grade of surface material used (tracks use a much finer grade of stone resulting in far more grip but less drainage), different camber profiles, etc, etc.

They are simply different environments to use a car in, a track will much more readily push the limits of a car, after all that is part of the purpose of a track, and how a car feels and behaves at 6/10ths compared to 10/10ths can and often is totally different.

Simply put most cars that are designed specifically for road use will generally feel very different when pushed on a track, almost always with understeer being the dominant and initial state on the limit.


Using experience of how a car feels on the road to state how a car feels on a track is a quite dangerous thing to do in the real world, the are not the same environments and they are not driven on in the same way.

One very clear 'real world' example of this I have experienced is the Renaultsport Clio V6 (Mk1), on the road this is a potentially lethal car, prone to huge amounts of lift-off oversteer and given its short wheel base will spin very readily (I know I almost binned one), driven ay even 5/10ths on the public road (particularly if its wet) can be an utterly terrifying experience, with the car feeling too fast and darty for its suspension set-up.

Take one to a track however and its characteristics change massively, tracks being wider than roads gives you more room to set the car up for a corner, so slight lift of the throttle allow you to tweak the rear of the car to a degree that simple does not happen on the road and the car feels wonderfully adjustable. Don't get me wrong its still an easy car to spin, but the nature of a track (and the run off in most cases) gives you more confidence to explore the cars limits and its even feels like it could do with a lot more power in this environment. Basically they feel like two totally different cars (and in the case I'm talking about its was exactly the same car as my experience was during the product launch training courses for the car, which I was running).

Road feel and track feel are not the same, driving a car in the road give you a feel for the car in that environment only, to know what the same car feels like on the track, you have to drive it on the track.


Regards

Scaff

 

[Joey D]

The thing is though I have driven some of the cars in GT4 as well as Forza like one would on the street to see how they feel. There are also several street circuits to drive which should be similar to real world road conditions.

You can get a general idea of what a car feels like at 80mph or through spirited street driving. No you won't know the limits of the car, but you will get an idea. Like if you exit the motorway at 80mph on a corner that is rated for 45mph (I'm not saying this is safe or a good idea) you will feel the car either under or over steer depending on tires, type of car, weather condition etc. If you do a similar thing in GT or Forza I don't think it feels the same as in real life...not even close.

I'm not giving my opinion on the track performance because I've never been to any track that is in the game (asides for the streets of New York City) and driven on them. I'm talking about lower speed physics that someone would experience while doing spirited street driving. If the car doesn't feel right at 80mph on a street course I have doubts that it feel right at 200mph on a race circuit.

**What is it like to drive like a Muppet?

 

[McLaren]

The thing is though I have driven some of the cars in GT4 as well as Forza like one would on the street to see how they feel. There are also several street circuits to drive which should be similar to real world road conditions.

Street Circuits in games are pretty much always smoothed out to the race track quality. There will obv. be a different feeling here than on a real road.

 

[Joey D]

So then what you are saying is that all the street circuits in games are not realistic what-so-ever because you'll be hard pressed to find that smooth of a road, especially in a city like New York.

 

[Scaff]

The thing is though I have driven some of the cars in GT4 as well as Forza like one would on the street to see how they feel. There are also several street circuits to drive which should be similar to real world road conditions.

You can get a general idea of what a car feels like at 80mph or through spirited street driving. No you won't know the limits of the car, but you will get an idea. Like if you exit the motorway at 80mph on a corner that is rated for 45mph (I'm not saying this is safe or a good idea) you will feel the car either under or over steer depending on tires, type of car, weather condition etc. If you do a similar thing in GT or Forza I don't think it feels the same as in real life...not even close.

I'm not giving my opinion on the track performance because I've never been to any track that is in the game (asides for the streets of New York City) and driven on them. I'm talking about lower speed physics that someone would experience while doing spirited street driving. If the car doesn't feel right at 80mph on a street course I have doubts that it feel right at 200mph on a race circuit.

You seem to have taken my comments as an opinion of how real or not Forza and/or GT4 are, which would be wrong.

My single point (and keep in mind that I both agreed and disagreed with your point) is that how a car feels at any speed on the road will not give you a true picture of how the same car will feel on a track. They are totally different environments.

I clearly agreed with you that you would be able to say how you believe a car feels at speed 'X', under circumstances 'Y' on the road, what I disagree with is that this can then be taken as how the same car will feel on a track (and this is based on one hell of a lot of personal experience).

**What is it like to drive like a Muppet?

Must be a British thing, to drive (or do anything) like a Muppet is to do it poorly, with little thought, etc. A less polite way would be to say 'drive like an idiot'.

So then what you are saying is that all the street circuits in games are not realistic what-so-ever because you'll be hard pressed to find that smooth of a road, especially in a city like New York.

I would have to say that I've never considered any of the road circuits in any game to be 'correct' in terms of the track surface, all seem far to smooth in comparison to any public road I have ever driven on or heard about.


Regards

Scaff

 

[Biggles]

If that's referring to Forza 2, they're not exactly what I would call "excellent." The whole "tap the wall ever so gently with the tail of your car and do a complete spin every single time" thing gets old really fast. I know the idea is to stay on the track, but no one is perfect, especially when they're just screwing around for fun on the Nürburgring and may or may not be sober.

I was referring to Forza 1. Definitely not "excellent", but much better than "nothing", which is basically what you get in EPR & GT4. I'm curious if you've tried F1:CE, Wolfe: if you hit something with any force, your tire falls off. Makes for very "focused" driving.

Tenacious: we're going to have to agree to disagree on practically everything - my copys of Forza & GT4 must be different from yours...

 

[Joey D]

You seem to have taken my comments as an opinion of how real or not Forza and/or GT4 are, which would be wrong.

My single point (and keep in mind that I both agreed and disagreed with your point) is that how a car feels at any speed on the road will not give you a true picture of how the same car will feel on a track. They are totally different environments.

I clearly agreed with you that you would be able to say how you believe a car feels at speed 'X', under circumstances 'Y' on the road, what I disagree with is that this can then be taken as how the same car will feel on a track (and this is based on one hell of a lot of personal experience).

I think we misunderstood each other, I'm merely saying if I take a car in Forza or GT4 and drive it like a normal car it won't feel the same. I'm not referring to what a car would feel like on a track, not matter what speed you are at. I just think if the car feels incorrect at a slower speed then it will probably not feel correct at a higher one.

Must be a British thing, to drive (or do anything) like a Muppet is to do it poorly, with little thought, etc. A less polite way would be to say 'drive like an idiot'.

Got it, I'm surprised I've never been exposed to that before.

I would have to say that I've never considered any of the road circuits in any game to be 'correct' in terms of the track surface, all seem far to smooth in comparison to any public road I have ever driven on or heard about.


Regards

Scaff

My comment wasn't directed at you and I apologize if you thought it was.

 

[McLaren]

So then what you are saying is that all the street circuits in games are not realistic what-so-ever because you'll be hard pressed to find that smooth of a road, especially in a city like New York.

Nope. I'm just saying you really can't compare street circuits to real roads because road conditions in games are generally very smooth so that they can be raced on. The only roads in GT4 which are quite a lot like their counter parts are Monte Carlo, & that Italian Rally track through the village.

 

[Tenacious D]

Tenacious: we're going to have to agree to disagree on practically everything - my copys of Forza & GT4 must be different from yours...

Err... well, I think our brains are involved somewhere along the way.

Like, the first time I played the Forza demo with the FFB wheel - I couldn't do squat with a hand controller - I took an Acura RSX to the first turn, thinking I'd come to terms with Forza 1 fairly well, what problem could there be? Except I sailed right off the track. Woah... I could see right there this was going to be a different beastie. As I got tuned in, I saw where the physics engine was massively improved, where it was more of the same, and where it had strange warts. To be sure, it's an admirable engine, but as with all art, and driving games are certainly a bit of that, there are tastes, and elements that because of the way things are coded, you're just stuck with them. It does seem that Turn 10 did manicure certain aspects to favor drift fans, with other parts suffering a bit as a result.

Going back to Forza 1 when my bro mentioned wanting to play FM1 again, I tried my hand at it after a long hiatus, and... ZOMG, what a mess. Not having FFB left me at a loss as to how well the car could take a turn. Braking was shockingly bad, and lock up way too easily at 100% pressure without ABS, while at the same time feeling late to engage. The view of the track was worse too, but I did miss a few courses like Blue Mountain and Road America.

Gran Turismo is such a different animal. Is it too forgiving? Maybe, but then you're missing almost EVERYTHING a car communicates to you in real life. A game has GOT to help you out a bit, or it's an exercize in frustration. The key for me are the tire sounds, and as a few have said along with me, GT's sounds are actually very close with small to mid sized sports sedans on street or sport tires. I suspect even racing tires sound similar. And the sound follows the grip envelope of a car being pushed around a turn amazingly well. When I lose it in a turn in Gran Turismo, I know why. If I do it in Forza 2, I may not, especially with the cruddy sounds they used.

I know with everything, taste and preference are the final deciders.

So anyway, going to buy that Prologue now, and create some more race cars in Forza.

 

[maximumGTO]

Well considering I got rid of Forza after I beat it, the answer is no.

Forza is nothing but a "fill in" game while we wait for the new GT!!

 

[Biggles]

Err... well, I think our brains are involved somewhere along the way.

Like, the first time I played the Forza demo with the FFB wheel - I couldn't do squat with a hand controller - I took an Acura RSX to the first turn, thinking I'd come to terms with Forza 1 fairly well, what problem could there be? Except I sailed right off the track. Woah... I could see right there this was going to be a different beastie. As I got tuned in, I saw where the physics engine was massively improved, where it was more of the same, and where it had strange warts. To be sure, it's an admirable engine, but as with all art, and driving games are certainly a bit of that, there are tastes, and elements that because of the way things are coded, you're just stuck with them. It does seem that Turn 10 did manicure certain aspects to favor drift fans, with other parts suffering a bit as a result.

Going back to Forza 1 when my bro mentioned wanting to play FM1 again, I tried my hand at it after a long hiatus, and... ZOMG, what a mess. Not having FFB left me at a loss as to how well the car could take a turn. Braking was shockingly bad, and lock up way too easily at 100% pressure without ABS, while at the same time feeling late to engage. The view of the track was worse too, but I did miss a few courses like Blue Mountain and Road America.

Gran Turismo is such a different animal. Is it too forgiving? Maybe, but then you're missing almost EVERYTHING a car communicates to you in real life. A game has GOT to help you out a bit, or it's an exercize in frustration. The key for me are the tire sounds, and as a few have said along with me, GT's sounds are actually very close with small to mid sized sports sedans on street or sport tires. I suspect even racing tires sound similar. And the sound follows the grip envelope of a car being pushed around a turn amazingly well. When I lose it in a turn in Gran Turismo, I know why. If I do it in Forza 2, I may not, especially with the cruddy sounds they used.

I know with everything, taste and preference are the final deciders.

Well, I think that, in fact, we would agree about a lot in comparing the games. The difference, I suspect, is that most people on this forum had played the GT series for a long time before thay tried Forza, so they had GT established as the "norm" in their expectations. I played Forza before I played any of the GT series, so I wasn't comparing it to GT when I started.

When I started playing GT4, I immediately found the physics in GT4 more "natural" feeling than Forza's, but this is partly due to Logitech (G25) wheel support. I appreciate the impressively "real" graphics & beautiful tracks (particularly Nurburgring) in GT4, but I do miss the collision physics & damage from Forza & the AI, which - & this is where I appear to completely disagree with you - while not perfect, is IMO far superior to GT4's & makes for much greater "replayability" of Forza. I never played Forza online, but this would obviously increase it's "replayability" factor.

Overall, I would rate GT4 & Forza 1 about equal, with GT4 getting the edge simply due to its G25 support.

I didn't get Forza 2, because of its lack of G25 support & its lack of signifcant new content (plus bad reliability of the 360). Obviously, compared to GT5 it was "rushed to market", but is still a "big" game compared to GT5, which is coming out almost a year later. I guess the true comparison may be GT5 & Forza 3...

 

[Rocket Punch]

If GT5 is equal to Forza 2 in every way, then GT5 will win because of the cockpit view alone. However, I don't see the need to take sides; Just because you like something more doesn't mean you have to hate everything else.

 

[Tenacious D]

I don't see the need to take sides; Just because you like something more doesn't mean you have to hate everything else.

Indeed. I'm actually still playing Forza 2 more than Prologue, even though Gran Turismo is my true love, because the darn game is still such a blast. I just created British Touring Cars out of a Lexus and a Foose Design IS430, giving them some kind of quaint yellow-green and blue livery based on something I came across, adding some unique touches here and there to make them my own. Later today after a nap, I'll have at it some more to create something which hopefully will work well in my thirst to race.

I have several virtual drivers I'm creating different identities for, and unique race liveries along with them. Nigel Fox is my personal one, but I want to create racers from Germany, Japan, Italy, Switzerland etc and give each of them something cool I can gawk at in those lackluster Forza replays. GT has such awesome replays, and I'm afraid Turn 10 will never get a clue.

 

[Mr Fox]

The real battle imo will be decided on which game provides the best online expiriance, and heres where i see Forza series having the edge.

1: PI system: love it or hate it, the PI system is a great idea, it allows you to take pretty much take any car you like and race it competativly in more than one class.
Example: take a lotus exige, it starts out in B class, its very competative in its starting class, but you can upgrade the car to be competative in A class and S class aswell and it can still hold its own, due to the large variety of upgrades on offer, meaning you can take the car you like most and upgrade it to the class of your choise and still remain competative.

(im not saying the PI system in forza2 is 100% perfect, but its far better than what im currently seeing in GT)

2: Damage & penaltys: car damage is vital to racing online, if you wall ride or shunt other players really hard you damage your car, pratically ending your chances of a win, this is very important as this feature ensures that the majority of players try to avoid car contact or wall riding during online play, of coarse there is a small minority of players who dont drive clean or try to cause crashes, but that reality exists for all online racing games and GT5 will be no exception.

3: custom paint jobs: I cant big up enough how awesome having your own cusom paint livery is when racing online, its gives your vehicle that feeling of personality and indervidualisim, that sets your car apart from everyone elses, your vehicle becomes instantly recognizable by your friends and others your have raced with before adding to that sence of idervidualism/personality.

Sure there will be a few daft designs, but in reality most of the custom paint jobs you see online attempt to create a realistic race livery look to there designs, some are even exact copies of existing real life liverys not provided by the developers.

theres nother sweeter than taking out your custom designed "Vitafone" S class MC12 and kicking some major as, its a really great feeling seeing your awesome looking designs in replay mode after a hard days online racing.

Coarse Cutting: Atm from what i have seen theres no penaltys for coarse cutting in GT5P or GT:HD, that would stop most people from cutting corners to win races, atleast in Forza2 if you cut a corner your car slows down to a snails pace effectly ruining your chances of catching up to 1st place, so kudos to turn 10 for that.

another thing is the upgrades, in Forza2 you can take a pretty much any car and make it waaaaaaaaaay quicker that it came in stock form, GT3/GT4 really didnt give you that much to work with imo, sure you could get the engines up to some serious horsepower, but in when it came to Aerodynamics or improved body parts GT was lacking imo, the only game in the GT series that was on par with Forza2 in this area was GT1 with it Race body kits, but since then then series has imo gone backwards in regaurdes to upgrading your cars, giving you less not more.

 

[shiwen]

I don't think GT is losing the battle to Forza. There is no battle between the two games, just between the people who play them. Each person has their own preferences and to each their own.

I prefer GT because I enjoy the overall experience of GT, and what really gets me into the experience is using a wheel(have a GT force pro). The main disappointment about forza 1 was lack of a decent wheel, and playing the demo with the controller was not enjoyable for me at all. With Forza 2, the idea of using the microsoft wheel does not appeal to me, and with the hardware restriction to only officially licensed 3rd party peripherals who knows if/when a good wheel will ever be released for the 360.

I'm not into cars as much as my friends are, but GT 2 was the one that got me into driving/racing sims. I can't wait for GT 5 to come out and will be getting a G25(tried it at a local frys, loved it) to fully enjoy the experience.

 

[nd 4 holden spd]

I say up Forza, go GT
Forza will never replace GT for me, it's a loyalty thing amongst others.