Do you think that GT is losing the battle against Forza?

[Hun200kmh]

Well ... I'm neither American, English or Japanese, and my answers would be these (with an "CE" for continental european ):

I: What do you make of Kei cars?
A: "I hate them. They are terrible. Nobody cares about these stupid... toys.
B: "Japan has some pretty nice superminis, but we certainly do have our own potent Minis.
J: "Kei cars can be very fun. I don't see why others don't at least like them."
CE: "Meh ... I only drive those if I'm required to in a particular cup"



I: What do you make of American muscle cars like in Forza?
A: "I love American cars. I don't care about anything European or Japanese or even Australian. All about my muscle. Maybe PD should look at Forza and stop pretending they know muscle cars."
B: (positive) "While I'm not really a muscle car-type person, they are quite as amazing as my own European cars." (negative) "Muscle cars are terrible. No handling, no style, no go."
J: (positive) "I do like muscle cars. They may not be all popular here in Japan, but they are pretty cool to race." (negative) "Muscle cars are good, but I'm more accustomed to my own Japanese sports cars."
CE: "They're fun to drive."

I: What do you think about the majority of tracks should be featured?
A: "Anywhere but Japan. Japan thinks the world revolves around them. Hey, PD! How about more American venues? Hell, I'd even race more events in Europe... so I can hammer them with my American cars."
B: "The automobile was born in Europe and so was motor racing. Why not a broader European focus? Enthusia did pretty well. Why not you guys, PD?"
J: "Japan is a beautiful place. We have some challenging tracks here with the crown jewel being Suzuka. However, I'm still game enough to race anywhere against any competition Hell... I'll even race in Antartica!"
CE: "I'll race anywhere, and don't mind where the tracks are from, but my favourites are real tracks with historical significance. I miss Spa."

I: What should be the balance of cars for both GT and Forza?
A: "As long as American cars are featured, I'm happy. I'm okay racing other cars from other countries, but I still want a strong prescence of my own American cars. There should also be a healthy balance of European cars as well. Just don't dominate it with Japanese to the point where they have more cars than our own American cars combined."
B: "I like both American and Japanese autos. I'd still like to see a good number of European cars. Our cars and car companies have a great deal of history in automobiles as well as in racing. I'd love to see European cars a bit better represented."
J: "American car fans aren't going to like seeing or being able to race Kei cars. Kei cars for Japan are like most compacts in America. Not the most powerful of cars, but they are our true compacts whether others like them or not. Don't like them? Don't race them. Understandably, I'm okay with my country's cars. Most of our sportscars aren't dominating. However, they can be upset-minded machines against the best of American and European cars when nicely tuned. Wish we were a bit more represented in Forza. Maybe Japan will like the XBOX better if we get a little more representation in Forza."
CE: Please, please, more european cars ...

 

[MasterGT]

So when some people claim GT3's AI is better, and others claim GT4's AI is better, and others claim LFS's AI is better, and others claim F2's AI is better, and soon we will likely hear others claim GT5's AI is better, and others claiming PGR4's is better. Guess what?... they are all correct!

When you are coming up behind two idiot AI bashing each other's quarter panels, you might take another view! Once you've seen that, you either lose control and drive into a guardrail yourself or chuckle mildly and just whiz past them, depending on your mood.

PD's AI need a white padded cell all of their own. No visitors allowed.

Cheers,

MasterGT

 

[McLaren]

Whatever do you mean?

Rubbing is racing...keeping your opponent out on the dirt and spining him isn't.

 

[Stevisiov]

PD's AI need a white padded cell all of their own. No visitors allowed.

That made me chuckle

 

[GTXLR]

Rubbing is racing...keeping your opponent out on the dirt and spining him isn't.

Matt neal is a bit of a loose cannon, he tried to force his way through, without anywhere to go to complete the pass, unless the leader backed off!
and that was never going to happen with plato leading, those two have a very obvious dislike for each other, and many incidents like this between them have been the result of the dispise they feel for each other!
Its a bit of two man war, neither have any respect for each other anymore. Thats why that was so aggressive from both sides.

 

[JasBird]

Great thread. I'm not sure if this link has been posted somewhere else, but I'll think you'll find it interesting and it gives some interesting points on some of the stuff talked about in this thread.

http://channel9.msdn.com/showpost.aspx?postid=314874

Cheers

 

[dylansan]

I: What do you make of Kei cars?
M: Kei cars are great fun. The races get longer, and with no real advantages, can lead to incredibly close racing. Keep them in.
I: What do you make of American muscle cars like in Forza?
M: Seeing as I doubt there will be reliability in the game, I wouldn't mind driving them. The Plymouth Superbird, and other odd Muscle Cars really need to be included.
I: What do you think about the majority of tracks should be featured?
M: Japan has some great tracks, although most of them were learned from GT4. I would say keep Japanese tracks, some American tracks too, and focus a lot on Europe and Australia.
I: What should be the balance of cars for both GT and Forza?
M: Just be sure to keep historical cars. I love old Skylines, Fiat 500s, and Superbirds, just as much as New WRXs, Ferraris, and GTs. I do think that Europe and America haven't been given fair share.

 

[Patrik]

Whatever do you mean?

oh ****! that's rough! just awsome!

 

[Laorin]

Maybe you are braking too soon? Typically the AI cars brake earlier than me so I usually have to be more careful of hitting them than worried that one will come up and hit me.


Do you also compare Gears of War to Halo 2 or are you thinking Halo 3 will blow it away? Or jump consoles and compare Resistance to Halo 2, one is on a next gen console and the other is last gen. You can't make that comparison.

Yeah, the AI cars won't run into you if you try to play the game like an arcade racer. If you drive more realistically you'll find that the AI waits until the absolute last possible second to SLAM on the brakes, and 90% of the time they'll run into you. Basically if you're not absolutely pushing your car to its limits 100% of the time, they run into you. Or they try to use the racing line you're on and nudge you into the grass on the nurb, or something.

Regardless of if he's braking too soon or not, it's inexcusable AI behavior.

GT4's AI is complete ass - we all know this

 

[unv412]

Kie cars/amrican muscle/specific tracks....let me just say, I have NO bias whatso ever!!!!!! I come from Australia ( one of the best multicultural societies in the world) (except from the oneoff riot between ausies and ethnics in 2006!) but am Macedonian born. I drive a Nissan Skyline R31 GTS-x (JDM) and my weekend car is a 68 Holden Monaro GTS (Aussie Muscle derived from Americans but made to handle) and I have a soft spot for 190E 2.5 evo II Mercs (euro chic).I have driven the
Ring in a hire car, thrashed a 2001 Camaro rental through 17 mile drive California and done a hot lap of Bathurst in a humble holden astra (mates aussie derivitive of a 96 nissan pulsar).
Just to sum up ...Im not big noting myself( better than you) .........but I am more open minded than most!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Jay]

Kie cars/amrican muscle/specific tracks....let me just say, I have NO bias whatso ever!!!!!! I come from Australia ( one of the best multicultural societies in the world) (except from the oneoff riot between ausies and ethnics in 2006!) but am Macedonian born. I drive a Nissan Skyline R31 GTS-x (JDM) and my weekend car is a 68 Holden Monaro GTS (Aussie Muscle derived from Americans but made to handle) and I have a soft spot for 190E 2.5 evo II Mercs (euro chic).I have driven the
Ring in a hire car, thrashed a 2001 Camaro rental through 17 mile drive California and done a hot lap of Bathurst in a humble holden astra (mates aussie derivitive of a 96 nissan pulsar).
Just to sum up ...Im not big noting myself( better than you) .........but I am more open minded than most!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I am much the same (Aussie too), I have two weekend/project cars, a R33 Skyline and a 1971 HG Monaro GTS (was my weekend car but now is a project), most weekends I am either working on or driving one of them. I am enthusiastic of cars from all over the world.

 

[Venari]

I'd just like to carefully skip over all the relevant comments and sensible discussion in this thread and say this:

Jason Plato is an arse.

Thank you. That is all.

 

[Raitziger]

Will driving a Ferrari in GT5 be as enjoyable as racing a Ferrari in the Forza series?

What do you think about GT vs. Forza in regards to either/both cars and/or bias?

When both of games say they have accurate representation of real physics, it really comes to driving feel. To me most enjoyable is most realistic, and i think GT has edge over forza. Not because GT has better physics engine but because it has support for better racing wheels. I just can't talk about "drving experiences" without FFB wheel from logitech. So i think forza just can not deliver realistic feel with that white wireless thing. GT in other hand has possibility to really rock my world with good G25 support. I like transmisson manual and cars fast around the corner.

I can't comment on AI because i have only played GT. Well i tried to play TOCA 3 ,but i had to quit when i found out that v8 in toca3 sounded like somebody was hurting a squirrel.

Like Biggles said lack of peripheral vision is a problem when you try to race clean. So at least in cockpit view there should be some marker whether somebody is right beside you.

Now that our consoles are connected to internet ,i can imagine that also GT will offer downloadable cars/tracks to adjust "bias" to own liking.

 

[Stevisiov]

You picked up on a very important point there, FFB form the Logitech steering wheel for me, makes the game, I am very much hoping that the GT5 will support the functions of the G25. If this is the case, then for me it is case closed.

 

[Biggles]

For me, support for the G25 was the deciding factor in not getting 360 & Forza 2.

AI isn't much better in Enthusia than GT4 IMO - Forza 1 & 2 definitely win in that department. Enthusia does provide the best (though not perfect) physics model - it would be great to see a similar model integrated into GT when GT5 comes out.

 

[Wolfe]

...i tried to play TOCA 3 ,but i had to quit when i found out that v8 in toca3 sounded like somebody was hurting a squirrel.

Then how can you stand to play Gran Turismo?

 

[JohnBM01]

My last post was simply a deal regarding bias among GT and Forza... didn't think I'd come up with this. I do appreciate the comments I've picked up in regards to GT vs. Forza in regards of bias.

 

[Raitziger]

Then how can you stand to play Gran Turismo?

Good point ,but GT has better sounds still. In TOCA 3 every car sounded same.(ok did not play every car in toca3, but after three cars sounding exactly same combined wiht arcady handling, i was done.)
In GT sounds may not be realistic as in eg. GT Legends, but there is more variety than in TOCA 3.

 

[Dave A]

I have to disagree with the sounds, ToCA 3's are much better than GT's. GT's sounds are a big weak point of the series. As for ToCA 3 having arcade handling, imo it simulates fwd cars very well. It doesn't feel as right with the rwd and 4wd cars as say RFactor, LFS or GTR but it's not qhat I would deem, arcade handling. At least not when you put the game onto sim mode, I never tried the arcade setting in ToCA 3 even though I own the game.

 

[Raitziger]

At least not when you put the game onto sim mode

How do you do that? Now i have get it somewhere again

edit: my 1.0 version had bug that took Pro options away but it is fixed in 1.1
Sometimes it is nice to be proofed wrong

 

[Wolfe]

The only thing the Simulation mode seems to do in TOCA 3 is lower the tires' longitudinal grip. Everything else, including the trademark Codemasters floatiness, remains the same.

I will admit, though, that I haven't spent much time with the game. I rented it once and couldn't stand playing it long enough to complete more than a couple championships. Everything Codemasters makes is floaty, floaty, floaty. Floatiness is okay for an arcadey rally series like Colin McRae, but not for a "sim" that takes place mostly on tarmac.

 

[unv412]

I am much the same (Aussie too), I have two weekend/project cars, a R33 Skyline and a 1971 HG Monaro GTS (was my weekend car but now is a project), most weekends I am either working on or driving one of them. I am enthusiastic of cars from all over the world.

good luck with the HG project, hopefully we can giv em a shot sometime:tup:It took me over $50000 and 7 years to finish mine.....and that was before (2001) this current $$$$value madness for musclecars (hope u got all the parts as they are pretty pricey/rare).Wot colour is it????

Just played FM2 again and must say am warming to it more and more everytime (graphics/supercar selection/engine noise/etc) but i do agree that without DFP it will never be a true sim to me.......its difficult to determine whether or not the physics are adequate.That DFP for FM2 cannot come soon enough!!!!

 

[JohnBM01]

Here's a strange question I'd like to ask for some debate...

Do you think GT5 could be a great game because of finding out what Forza has to offer? Think about it in team sports. Some sports will have you go up against teams much more powerful than yours or even against potent teams that kind of make you better. Forza has drawn inspiration from GT. So do you think with some of the features Forza games have offered, do you think GT could be a better game if they drawn on the strengths of Forza? I'm not saying GT is a nobody game compared to Forza. All I'm asking is if you think GT could be a better game by trying to offer a better overall package than Forza? Or do you think GT should keep on keeping on without taking influence or be aware of any rival racing games?

What do you think, boys and girls?

 

[FoolKiller]

Here's a strange question I'd like to ask for some debate...

Do you think GT5 could be a great game because of finding out what Forza has to offer?

It depends on what Kaz thinks. I have a feeling that this is, and always has been, his game. It is what he wants and thinks it should be. If he tested out FM2 and thought they just added a cool feature that he hadn't thought of then I woudl say yes. But if he feels that his visions is perfect, then no. Any improvements would be another part of his vision that was possible to add due to less hardware limitations.

 

[MasterGT]

Forza has drawn inspiration from GT. So do you think with some of the features Forza games have offered, do you think GT could be a better game if they drawn on the strengths of Forza?

Where is there evidence that anyone at PD pays any attention to other games?

If there is any, I must have missed it.

Cheers,

MasterGT

 

[Bram Turismo]

*snip*

In my opinion, GT should not watch what Forza does. Ever since Forza came out, I had a feeling something was taken from GT. Certain car sounds sounded very familiar from those of GT4 and I've always thought GT4's car reflections were less gloss and boxy looking then Forza's cars. I've watched both the Forza 2 and GT5 trailers several times and the first thing I noticed was that GT5's graphics were far superior. Don't ask me how much time they took to make that Motul Z race car with the camera spinning around it and the changing background. GT's cars gave me more a realistic feeling, but I had the feeling that you could not modify those cars, which isn't a bad thing because why would you want to paint a Ferrari F430 pink with yellow rims? Forza is a little bit more interesting because of the countless modifications but Forza's tracks surroundings were too repetitive. Also, tracks in Forza showed no bumps at all, when I viewed a piece of the trailer where the driver's in an Audi R8, I was wondering whether Forza actually included suspension on their cars. As some of you may know, especially those who watch the ELMS and ALMS series, race cars tend to bump amd jump very much, even if it is an R8. GT did a great job on suspension in GT4, but it still was a little bit too stiff in my opinion. On the Viper Team Oreca, for example, there is no bouncing like those GT cars do...From what I've seen, I would take GT5 over Forza 2 anytime. A die-hard GT fan doesn't care about modifications for the exterior as it only adds up to the looks, but not necesarilly to the driving fun. I just hope Kaz has learned something from the bad oversteer engine in GT4 and hopefully, we'll get a GT3 similar oversteer engine in GT5

 

[DARCwizard]

In my opinion, GT should not watch what Forza does. Ever since Forza came out, I had a feeling something was taken from GT. Certain car sounds sounded very familiar from those of GT4 and I've always thought GT4's car reflections were less gloss and boxy looking then Forza's cars. I've watched both the Forza 2 and GT5 trailers several times and the first thing I noticed was that GT5's graphics were far superior. Don't ask me how much time they took to make that Motul Z race car with the camera spinning around it and the changing background. GT's cars gave me more a realistic feeling, but I had the feeling that you could not modify those cars, which isn't a bad thing because why would you want to paint a Ferrari F430 pink with yellow rims? Forza is a little bit more interesting because of the countless modifications but Forza's tracks surroundings were too repetitive. Also, tracks in Forza showed no bumps at all, when I viewed a piece of the trailer where the driver's in an Audi R8, I was wondering whether Forza actually included suspension on their cars. As some of you may know, especially those who watch the ELMS and ALMS series, race cars tend to bump amd jump very much, even if it is an R8. GT did a great job on suspension in GT4, but it still was a little bit too stiff in my opinion. On the Viper Team Oreca, for example, there is no bouncing like those GT cars do...From what I've seen, I would take GT5 over Forza 2 anytime. A die-hard GT fan doesn't care about modifications for the exterior as it only adds up to the looks, but not necesarilly to the driving fun. I just hope Kaz has learned something from the bad oversteer engine in GT4 and hopefully, we'll get a GT3 similar oversteer engine in GT5

I agree with you to a degree. I think that every game should have their origional selling point, however, I also believe that competition is a driving force in evolution. Video cards for PC's for example. IF PD see's that Forza has a superior customization feature, then they should try to step it up, because they are making a cutting edge game. I think we would all like (Including me) Forza and GT to be seperated and not compared, because they really are two totally different games. Beyond the fact that they are both racing games, they look different, drive different, have different options, tracks, customizations, etc... But they are at competition with one another so they have to keep an eye on what is considered standard in the genre. Those standards are put out by every new Forza and GT game released (along with TOCA and Enthusia and etc...) so we have to hope that PD see's what Forza has made standard, and evolve that into something of their own.

 

[Ske]

As far as gameplay is concerned I definitely agree that each game should have it's own style... However, some things need to be addressed for GT to work online. To take customization as an example: You NEED to have some kind of limited option just to be able to tell the cars apart... More than likely, the grids will consist of large amounts of a certain "best" model for the race... with no degree of customization it would be hopeless to tell who's who.

When it comes down to the physics and AI quality, I think video games are (should be) past the point of making compromises to keep up appearances... I really do think that PD should be (and probably do) test and research Forza 2 extensively to figure out exactly what it does better, and try to rectify that.

 

[Bram Turismo]

I agree with you to a degree. I think that every game should have their origional selling point, however, I also believe that competition is a driving force in evolution. Video cards for PC's for example. IF PD see's that Forza has a superior customization feature, then they should try to step it up, because they are making a cutting edge game. I think we would all like (Including me) Forza and GT to be seperated and not compared, because they really are two totally different games. Beyond the fact that they are both racing games, they look different, drive different, have different options, tracks, customizations, etc... But they are at competition with one another so they have to keep an eye on what is considered standard in the genre. Those standards are put out by every new Forza and GT game released (along with TOCA and Enthusia and etc...) so we have to hope that PD see's what Forza has made standard, and evolve that into something of their own.

Gran Turismo has always been the racing game to beat. Gran Turismo was one of the few racing game in the old days which had actual very realistic looking cars. (Considering it was a PS1). Although I agree Forza and Gran Turismo should be seperated, they are racing games after all and are being made to come out best against others 👍

 

[Beerz]

I don't think PD needs to do a lot of research to see where they can improve with GT5.
Everyone knows the AI sucks, even a small child knows you have to break and/or swerve to avoid hitting something on your way, as well as you can't overtake by hitting the back of the car in front, you have to go around the car, or even that if you're way too fast on a turn, the solution is not keep accelerating, amongst other issues.
AI should mean they have a certain (even minimal) degree of deciding what to do on each situation, GT cars don't even remotely do that, they're just programmed to do certain things and that's only what they do.

As far as graphics, I'm expecting A LOT from GT5, and have almost no doubts it will be far superior in realism at that level, compared to Forza 2.

On customization, it doesn't (imo) need much more than it already has, just a few changes (please, loose the task bar while fitting parts to a car) so that not every part is the same regardless of where you buy it would be enough to make me happy, and if it's going to have wings, please put something that doesn't ruin the car's looks, this is where they really slacked out on GT4 too.

As far as the thread title goes, as already said, you really can't compare both games (GT4 and Forza 2), only when GT5 comes out for PS3 will that comparison be valid, and I don't have the slightest doubt forza will be defeated badly, despite whatever things I may or may not like on GT5.

GT was always the game to beat, everyone else just tries to. On the same level, none has succeeded so far.