does Toyota annoy anyone else or just me?

[millencolin]

i am really starting to Dislike Toyota!!!

Why? well, they can never seems to go 2 seasons with the same driver lineup! First off it was Salo and McNish, who I and many others thought, Did a good job in Toyota's first season. and then they flicked them both! why? because they didnt get enough results. It doesnt matter how much money you spend, your not going to get great results in your first season of F1!!! but this didnt seem to reqister with the top honchos at Tokyo!!

then Toyota employ Panis And DaMatta. BOth do a good solid job for Toyota in 2003. then toyota start speaking of their chances for 2004 "the TF104 is a podium-capable car" "we expect podiums from our drivers" "watch out here we come" stuff like that. The car turns out to be a turd with wheels. so who do Toyota fire? not someone from a design and enginerring area but a driver, Da Matta. DaMatta was not out performed by Panis, but yet the blaim was inflicted onto him. as a daMatta supporter from his earlier Champcar days with PPI motorsport and Newmann/Hass, i was outraged to hear the news of his sacking.

But i know you have heard all this before, now it comes to my attention that Trulli will come in for Zonta at Japan and at Brazil for Panis, what was sposed to be his final GP!! Does toyota even know what continuation is? they are talking about how they want to be world champions!! why is ferrari and Michael so damn good? because the same group of people have worked together since the mid-90's and have gelled to become so dominant. now look at them...they are (mostly) unbeatable!! Toyota have the resources and moolah to become winners. but if they want to win, thewy have to stop jerking everything around and start to gel as a team, drivers included. they have 2 gp winners driving for them next year, if they gel and no internal conflicts occur, Toyota could become a major player within 2 years.

Well, thats my view anyways!!

EDIT - just fixed some errors

 

[GilesGuthrie]

I have to disagree with your statement that Da Matta has outperformed Panis. Panis has 6 points to Da Matta's three. Panis is also 10-6 up in qualifying against his team-mates.

I watched Da Matta quite closely in his first race in Melbourne 2003, and he looked a little boy lost. I was surprised it took him so long to crash. Then, at Silverstone in 2003, I thought that he'd matured significantly, but since then he's done very little, and has shown little in the way of commitment. I think his woeful performance at the German GP was an apparent example of this, but throughout the season he's looked like he lacks the right combination of aptitude and hunger to succeed.

I don't think Toyota annoys me (not in the way the Jaguar or BAR hype did), but they are certainly a team with all the budget and none of the clue. And they've shown a particular inability to hire drivers. With a blank cheque book, why would you drop $15m on Ralf and $9m on Trulli? On their day, they're both untouchable, but those days are few and far between, and they both need the car to be perfect. Which it is not.

They should have hired another senior/junior pair, like Coulthard and Davidson. Both are good testers, and both have things to prove in their racing careers. Both are very PR-friendly, and they could have got the pair for $8m rising to $15m over the next three years. In which case they would have had from $16m to $9m to spend on development plus other non-F1-related PR/media work.

I think that there will always be a team that proves that success cannot be bought through money alone. It was Ferrari, then it was BAR, now it's Toyota.

 

[Mike Rotch]

Yays. The old g-g avatar is back 👍

I agree with Giles too. For me Coulthard would have been a better choice then Trulli for one position. He is more mature, a better PR proposition and has experience of being in a top team for many years.

Surprisingly, i would like to see Heidfeld in the other seat. He did no worse then Kimi at Sauber and has had an impressive 04 season considering his equipment.

I fear if Toyota dont turn the corner in the next year or two, they will follow Ford out the back door.

 

[GilesGuthrie]

Yays. The old g-g avatar is back 👍

I agree with Giles too. For me Coulthard would have been a better choice then Trulli for one position. He is more mature, a better PR proposition and has experience of being in a top team for many years.

Surprisingly, i would like to see Heidfeld in the other seat. He did no worse then Kimi at Sauber and has had an impressive 04 season considering his equipment.

I fear if Toyota dont turn the corner in the next year or two, they will follow Ford out the back door.

Glad to be of service!!

I'm something of an expert on Nick Heidfeld... In 2001, before the return of traction control, I was at the Barcelona race, down at the first corner. It was the season when Heidfeld and Raikkonen were in the Saubers, and Raikkonen was "the next big thing". Over the course of the three days, my own understanding of Formula One really advanced, and I could start to see the different driving styles in use, hear the throttle usage, and plot where the braking starts and ends, how the drivers steer.

It became apparent that (in comparison to Raikkonen, who is still "the next big thing"), Heidfeld braked earlier, and turned in earlier. He used throttle, brake and steering more softly, and more independently, than Raikkonen. Kimi is very much an "oversteer dancer", and arrives at the corner in a big hurry. Stands on the brakes, and turns in. Then he uses throttle and brake together, in conjunction with the steering, to modulate the car's yaw, and manipulate it around the corner.

Heidfeld's style is slow-in, fast-out. His car is more settled throughout the corner, and that allows him to get on the power earlier, and drive the car through the exit of the turn. Raikkonen is a flurry of slip angles.

The reason that Raikkonen is in a McLaren, and Heidfeld is in a Jordan is that traction control wiped out Heidfeld's style advantage. Now, there's no time to be made on the corner exit, because the driver just stamps on the throttle and everything is optimised for him. The time now is made on entry and through the heart of the corner, and even back in 2001, it was plain to see that Raikkonen got to the apex much faster than Heidfeld.

When (if) they ban traction control again, Heidfeld will be a good buy.

 

[kensei]

I am a Trulli fan so him getting the race seat after the Renault drama is wonderful to me.

That being said Toyota has been a little all over the place the past few seasons. Salo/McNish, nothing really special there. Mika salo wasn't a bad driver but he wasn't a groudbreaking one either. Same with McNish, though he was the better of the two. Also that car wasn't that great. Panis and Da Matta. Yawn. Panis has never been an interesting driver or one you could get excited about or get behind. I am sure he is a nice guy and he is a very capable and solid driver but that is about it. He has done well in a workman like way the past 2 seasons but agan nothing breath taking. Da Matta, his F1 performance shows the major difference in skill and ability between champ car (joke) and F1. Sure Da Matta was thrown into the deep end last year. You expect him to have some growing pains. The thing is, is that he never really improved. He had one or two good moments with some fast laps but in general he never really improved. This year he seemed even worst. Let him go back to the sad little world of champ cars and be the big fish in the small pond.

So for 05. I think this is what Toyota needs. Two very solid and very good drivers. I was never a fan of Raplh Schumacher, but I gotta admit I was happy to see him back on the grid in Shanghai and he did a good job all wekeend, until DC came along. Ralph is a brilliant driver at times and on his bad days he is a good driver (on his really bad days he is laughingly bad though, but they seem fewer and fewer lately). I won't go into Trulli much since my thoughts on him being one of the top 5 drivers on the grid. Drivers will not be a problem next year. They have two of the top drivers on the grid that can get the results Toyota craves.

The b spec 04 car, while still not that great, is better. I can only hope that Gascoyne (sp?) and his group with their blank canvas and new rules get it right, I think they will, for the 05 car. Not that we will see Toyota fighting for victories next year, but I think closing the gap and fighting for a 4th or 5th place in the constructors is realistic, maybe even a podium or two.

I am hopefull for next year. Toyota finally seems to have built a soild team with good people that know how to win. I would like to see them do well in F1. But, if they drop these drivers at the end of next year and start all this mess over....then it's over. Toyota will never amount to anything in F1.

 

[Pink_the_Floyd]

Nope,they aren't annoying me but the only thing that bother's me about Toyota is that they push they're drivers too hard.You canNOT expect you'll get podium positions in you're third season but Toyota is used to this things.Look at Le Mans,almost a victory in they're second participation!!

 

[Mike Rotch]

Glad to be of service!!

I'm something of an expert on Nick Heidfeld... In 2001, before the return of traction control, I was at the Barcelona race, down at the first corner. It was the season when Heidfeld and Raikkonen were in the Saubers, and Raikkonen was "the next big thing". Over the course of the three days, my own understanding of Formula One really advanced, and I could start to see the different driving styles in use, hear the throttle usage, and plot where the braking starts and ends, how the drivers steer.

It became apparent that (in comparison to Raikkonen, who is still "the next big thing"), Heidfeld braked earlier, and turned in earlier. He used throttle, brake and steering more softly, and more independently, than Raikkonen. Kimi is very much an "oversteer dancer", and arrives at the corner in a big hurry. Stands on the brakes, and turns in. Then he uses throttle and brake together, in conjunction with the steering, to modulate the car's yaw, and manipulate it around the corner.

Heidfeld's style is slow-in, fast-out. His car is more settled throughout the corner, and that allows him to get on the power earlier, and drive the car through the exit of the turn. Raikkonen is a flurry of slip angles.

The reason that Raikkonen is in a McLaren, and Heidfeld is in a Jordan is that traction control wiped out Heidfeld's style advantage. Now, there's no time to be made on the corner exit, because the driver just stamps on the throttle and everything is optimised for him. The time now is made on entry and through the heart of the corner, and even back in 2001, it was plain to see that Raikkonen got to the apex much faster than Heidfeld.

Most educational and insightful 👍

 

[MistaY]

Sounds like Kimmi has more of a Rallydriver style, well he is Finnish I suppose. I've always thought Heidfeld was pretty good, but it's hard for him to make an impression in a Jordan.

As for Toyota, there just another big manufacture team that will either progress and do well and then drop out. Or they don't develop and drop out.

 

[Omnis]

im also a devoted Trullian. i think it has something to do with the hair...or his italianism...haha, i love making up words.

i think toyota would do a lot better if they made the PANASONIC text black or red instead of blue. green would even be ok...but the blue just isnt really flowing. it sticks out too much. maybe thats good for panasonic, but not for the paint job.

</end worthless rant>

 

[millencolin]

i always thought heidfeld is under-rated. i wanted a Webber-Heidfeld lineup at Williams next year.

 

[PublicSecrecy]

are you kidding? if i saw them in williams (no offense) i'd shoot myself. (feircely defensive over BMW AND Ralf & JPM)

 

[Nasadus]

On a different note.Do you guys think that Toyota will be up front next year?You know,up there with the Renaults,BAR's etc.A friend of mine asked me this question and i said yes.They hired Mike Gascoyne this season to improve the car but he couldn't do much without building a completely new car and there wasn't any time for that.Now that the seaon is almost over he has started building a new car the way he thinks it's best.For people who don't kno who Mike Gascoyne is,he is the guy that buildt the Renaults.

I mean,the only thing Toyota is lacking now is good aerodynamics and with Mike they are going to get it.They have a good engine and now they have good drivers.I think we'll see Ralf or Trulli on the podium a few times next year.

 

[GilesGuthrie]

No, I don't see Toyota moving forward a great deal. Gascoyne is a great organiser, but I think you do Renault a disservice to say that their success was entirely down to him.

I think that their driver choices are a huge waste of money. They could have got more talent for less, and both of the drivers are mentally frail, which is not good in a team that has so much internal pressure.

It's definitely another year of growth for Toyota, but I think that they will be lucky to consistently score podiums.

 

[kensei]

No, I don't see Toyota moving forward a great deal. Gascoyne is a great organiser, but I think you do Renault a disservice to say that their success was entirely down to him.

I think that their driver choices are a huge waste of money. They could have got more talent for less, and both of the drivers are mentally frail, which is not good in a team that has so much internal pressure.

It's definitely another year of growth for Toyota, but I think that they will be lucky to consistently score podiums.

As much as I don't want to agree with you I think you are right.

Next seaosn will be there best seaosn to date, but at best that means fighting for 5th or 6th on the constructors. Though given the right factors, I could see Jarno or Ralph on a podium or two.

 

[Johnny]

Well Da Matta was scrapped by Toyota because his constant arguments with Gascoyne. Since the pre-season he was complaing that the problem in the car was with the suspension. When Gascoyne joined he said the problem was aerodynamics.

So after half the season, with a new chassis made my Gascoyne, the car still had the same problems. Da Matta kept saying the problem was the suspension.

The car continues to be slow, even after Da Matta was scrapped. Good job Toyota and Gascoyne. lol

Next year will be fun. Ralf Schumacher and Jarno Trulli as drivers .
I mean, the only thin Ralf do is complain, and he was never a good driver at all. Trulli was always a good driver but his attitude this season... don't know, just too childish. After he wins a race, he started to fight with Briatore. And honestly trading Renault for Toyota... Well i don't think he's career is on the rise with a move like that.

 

[nsx_vtec]

Yays. The old g-g avatar is back 👍

I agree with Giles too. For me Coulthard would have been a better choice then Trulli for one position. He is more mature, a better PR proposition and has experience of being in a top team for many years.

Surprisingly, i would like to see Heidfeld in the other seat. He did no worse then Kimi at Sauber and has had an impressive 04 season considering his equipment.

I fear if Toyota dont turn the corner in the next year or two, they will follow Ford out the back door.

maybe dc would have been a better choice but is he too old??? and trulli is one of the few drivers to win a grand prix this year might mean much but it looks good on paper as for toyota bacikng they have so much money i dont think they will and remember they took the hard road in they created a team from scratch instead of buying one like jaguar so give them some time

 

[Firestarter75]

Toyota is being retarded, keep the drivers and work on the car. The problem has never been the drivers. It pissed me off they dumped McNish so soon, and as everyone can see after 4 different drivers they all struggle. Obviously it must be the drivers!

 

[Pupik]

With rumors that Toyota spending as much, or even more than, Ferrari...there's a lot at stake for the newly-created team.

First of all, few teams have come into the sport guns-blazing, and amazed the rest of the F1 paddock. It's a steep climb to get to the top, and when a new team is faced with the added challenge of developing an engine programme as well, then it's just that much harder. With history against their lofty pursuit of "winning races as soon as possible", there's a lot to be said for the ingredients of team...plenty of experience in management, design, and engineering. And even though Toyota isn't the first thought in most minds about who's-who in international motorsport, they are certainly qualified to say "been-there-done-that."

However, Toyota wants the best drivers available, to see just how good a car they can produce.They started out with two drivers that were good, but not great. Salo an McNish worked hard, but Toyota wanted fresher talent and got it in the form of their CART champ da Matta, and a proven driver (not necessarily a racer) in Panis. So Toyota is going to prove just how good they are by drafting Trulli and Ralf. Trulli hasn't impressed much yet, but the complaint is that the car isn't the most advanced yet.

I bascially expect a podium or two next year, reliability and performance consistency can give two race-winning drivers a chance at a team that has the capability to win races and eventually bigger and better things.

What peeves me about Toyota is that the relatively untapped market of the United States is available; many people drive, or even tune and/or race Toyotas. The reliability and strength factor is always hyped in the press (and for good reason). But I bet only one in one thousand people here even know they have an F1 racing team. There's no ads, whether TV or print, showcasing their baby to he public. Heck, even Panasonic is fairly well known around these parts...