Has anyone else noticed this?!

[Grimm6Jack]

I think the 2020 AMG Black Series is the best overall road car in the game.

Fully Tuned?

Definitely up there... The LaFerrari, the Enzo, the Veneno, the 918 Spyder are also up there, but you are going to need a lot of patience to tame the LaFerrari and the Enzo due to their poor traction.

PD really did a ****** job to drop the PP ratings of the Dif and Suspension. Now we can no longer see how much our car actually improved in the left side stats bar of the car when we make changes to them (seeing the Gs and 0-400m times for example). It's not like all of us have the time to constantly go out on a track and try a set-up, potentially dozens or even hundreds of times until we get it right. ... on so many cars.

The F40 while not being as good as the ones above in pure performance, is also a joy to drive even fully tuned. The F50 on the other hand... jesus.

 

[kjeldsen]

delete

 

[Chikane_GTR]

Because they were the best. Just like AUDI when they won most of their victories or the year Mazda embarrassed those incredible non Japanese cars.

Sure, the endless victory parade of American cars should not be forgotten.

Toyota wasn't the best in the WEC from 2012 to 2017 when Audi and Porsche were racing there P1 cars Toyota only started winning le man when those 2 companies left.

Now with the hypercar class and Porsche and Ferrari and BMW coming back to challenge Toyota again Toyota needs to proof there the best by beating the best not beating there team car.

 

[Famine]

This is like referencing Nascar and saying there aren't many Japanese car wins. LOL

Can I just check which brand won the 2015, 2017, and 2019 Cup Series championships for its drivers, and 2016, 2017, and 2019 manufacturers titles?

Toyota wasn't the best in the WEC from 2012 to 2017 when Audi and Porsche were racing there P1 cars Toyota only started winning le man when those 2 companies left.

Le Mans and the WEC are different things, and Toyota won both of the 2014 WEC titles ahead of Audi and Porsche...

 

[Arkseven]

What exactly is wrong with the C7? What's wrong with the rest of the american cars?

Too much understeer/oversteer? Bad brakes? Poor acceleration or top speed?

My experience with them is completely different. The C7 is one of the best cars for Tokyo 600. It handles super well with great acceleration and top speed. The only con is that the brakes aren't that good, which makes the car unstable when heavy braking at the first turn. Either way, it's probably one of the fastest cars running around Tokyo.

The C4 and the C6 is also great at any PP. I don't know how they drive irl, but I can say that in GT7 they're all amazing.

All 3 Vipers are also perfect for any 600pp race without any tunes. It's easy mode if you tune them to 700pp.

 

[Chikane_GTR]

Can I just check which brand won the 2015, 2017, and 2019 Cup Series championships for its drivers, and 2016, 2017, and 2019 manufacturers titles?

Le Mans and the WEC are different things, and Toyota won both of the 2014 WEC titles ahead of Audi and Porsche...

1 year doesn't make them the best Audi and Porsche were better when all 3 were competing for longer overall then Toyota.

 

[Famine]

1 year doesn't make them the best Audi and Porsche were better when all 3 were competing for longer overall then Toyota.

Toyota was, by definition, the best that year, right in the middle of the period you said it wasn't.

The team won five of the eight races (four won by Buemi/Davidson who won the drivers' title) in 2014, with Audi winning two (one of which was Le Mans) and Porsche just one. You can't erase the championships just because it's inconvenient to your point.

 

[Chikane_GTR]

I didn't discredit what they did that year I said overall from 2012 to 2017 there weren't the best.

Edit

Winners of the World Endurance Drivers' Championship 2012 - 2017

2012 - Audi Sport Team Joest
2013 - Audi Sport Team Joest
2014 - Toyota Racing
2015 - Porsche Team
2016 - Porsche Team
2017 - Porsche Team

 

[brocp]

Toyota have been dominant and won many championships in both WRC and WEC. They've also won Le Mans, along with Mazda. Honda were the dominant engine in F1 for many years in both the turbocharged and NA eras.

To say they "have always been completely out-classed" is complete rubbish.

I love Toyota but they've only really won WEC and the recent Le Mans because they've had no real competition. This year if they win it all again I'll agree with you but at the moment, in endurance racing at least, they've been the only real fish in the WEC pond.

 

[Famine]

I didn't discredit what they did that year I said overall from 2012 to 2017 there weren't the best.

Nope:

Toyota wasn't the best in the WEC from 2012 to 2017 when Audi and Porsche were racing there P1 cars

And as Toyota won both titles in 2014, it was the best in 2014 - when both Audi and Porsche were racing their P1 cars (Audi was second, Porsche third).

 

[Chikane_GTR]

Nope:

And as Toyota won both titles in 2014, it was the best in 2014 - when both Audi and Porsche were racing their P1 cars (Audi was second, Porsche third).

So Toyota winning that one year makes them the best overall from 2012 to 2017? Lets forget Audi winning in 2012,2013 or Porsche winning in 2015, 2016, 2017 those don't count.

Gotcha


Maybe you should look at your own reply.

The team won five of the eight races (four won by Buemi/Davidson who won the drivers' title) in 2014, with Audi winning two (one of which was Le Mans) and Porsche just one. You can't erase the championships just because it's inconvenient to your point.

 

[Famine]

So Toyota winning that one year makes them the best overall from 2012 to 2017?

No, it makes them the best in that one year, like what I said:

Toyota was, by definition, the best that year, right in the middle of the period you said it wasn't.

You've since added the word "overall" and are now pretending it was there all along (despite me just quoting it to point out to you that you didn't) in order to argue against something I didn't say:

Toyota wasn't the best in the WEC from 2012 to 2017 when Audi and Porsche were racing there P1 cars Toyota only started winning le man when those 2 companies left.

1 year doesn't make them the best Audi and Porsche were better when all 3 were competing for longer overall then Toyota.

I didn't discredit what they did that year I said overall from 2012 to 2017 there weren't the best.

... when my counterpoint was strictly limited to what you did say.


How much further would you like to move the goalposts?

Maybe you should look at your own reply.

Heh, ironic.

 

[Chikane_GTR]

I didn't add it I edited my post to fix the word competing which I had spelled wrong. My original post had the word overall from 2012 to 2017.

In fact this was the orginal post before I edited.

1 year doesn't make them the best Audi and Porsche were better when all 3 were completing for longer overall then Toyota.

That's why I edited my post I misspelled that word.

 

[05XR8]

I know there are Toyotas made in the USA, but don’t those Japanese cars race and win in NASCAR? I mean, I think they have nearly as many championships as Ford. Yes or no? Just asking for a friend.

 

[xtroplay]

No, it makes them the best in that one year, like what I said:

You've since added the word "overall" and are now pretending it was there all along (despite me just quoting it to point out to you that you didn't) in order to argue against something I didn't say:



... when my counterpoint was strictly limited to what you did say.


How much further would you like to move the goalposts?

Heh, ironic.

This feels like pedantry bordering on genuine semantic inaccuracy.

Using "from" over a range of years pretty much inherently means that you're talking about the performance over the span of the whole period.

People would look at you like you were completely insane if someone said "Red Bull were not the best in Formula 1 from 2014-2022" and you seemed to think you had a "gotcha" moment by reminding them that Red Bull won the constructors title in 2022 while Mercedes won 8 others in the referenced time period.

 

[Famine]

I didn't add it I edited my post to fix the word competing which I had spelled wrong. My original post had the word overall from 2012 to 2017.

And it still does not contain the word "overall", which you have since added into your subsequent posts to claim that was what you said. I literally just quoted it back to you again. Look:

Toyota wasn't the best in the WEC from 2012 to 2017 when Audi and Porsche were racing there P1 cars Toyota only started winning le man when those 2 companies left.

No mention of "overall" anywhere in that post.

I didn't discredit what they did that year I said overall from 2012 to 2017 there weren't the best.

Here you claim, after my counterpoint that Toyota won WEC in 2014 (and WEC is not Le Mans), "I said overall", except you didn't anywhere in your original post.

So Toyota winning that one year makes them the best overall from 2012 to 2017? Lets forget Audi winning in 2012,2013 or Porsche winning in 2015, 2016, 2017 those don't count.

Gotcha

Here you attempt to be condescending and claim I said overall, when I didn't.

You have thus "added the word "overall" and are now pretending it was there all along (despite me just quoting it to point out to you that you didn't) in order to argue against something I didn't say".

People would look at you like you were completely insane if someone said "Red Bull were not the best in Formula 1 from 2014-2022" and you seemed to think you had a "gotcha" moment by reminding them that Red Bull won the constructors title in 2021 while Mercedes won 8 others in the referenced time period.

Mercedes won the constructors title in 2021.

 

[xtroplay]

Sorry, 2022, point stands, you're trying to win on a grammar technicality that isn't even correct.

If you said that Red Bull was the best constructor in Formula 1 from 2014-2022 and your basis for that is that they won a single championship, the average English speaker would regard your statement as objectively wrong.

 

[Chikane_GTR]

My original post didn't have the word overall but the first sentence.. Toyota wasn't the best in the WEC from 2012 to 2017 still says what I meant.

 

[Famine]

Sorry, 2022, point stands, you're trying to win on a grammar technicality that isn't even correct.

I'm not trying anything. I'm responding to what's actually been said. If we're going to have discussions based on things that haven't been said, it's going to get very confusing indeed.

If you said that Red Bull was the best constructor in Formula 1 from 2014-2022 and your basis for that is that they won a single championship, the average English speaker would regard your statement as objectively wrong.

Quite so. I'm not sure what the relevance is.

My original post didn't have the word overall

So don't then say that it did. You claimed "I said overall". You didn't say overall.

but the first sentence.. Toyota wasn't the best in the WEC from 2012 to 2017 still says what I meant.

And to reiterate, in 2014 - right in the middle of that period - it was, in fact, the best. It won both titles that year. Le Mans, of course, evaded it, but in a straight, full-season, championship fight with both Audi and Porsche, Toyota won both titles, with five race wins (four for the lead squad) from eight. In that year, and that year alone, it was the best.

I'm not sure why you - or anyone - would think that means I think Toyota was the best overall from 2012-2017 inclusive, because at no point have I said that...

 

[Chikane_GTR]

Ok for that year Toyota was the best I give them that. But when you add the seasons from 2012 to 2017 you cant just forget the fact Porsche won 3 and Audi won 2 many will see Porsche winning 3 and say they were the best.

 

[xtroplay]

I'm not trying anything. I'm responding to what's actually been said. If we're going to have discussions based on things that haven't been said, it's going to get very confusing indeed.

Quite so. I'm not sure what the relevance is.

So don't then say that it did. You claimed "I said overall". You didn't say overall.

And to reiterate, in 2014 - right in the middle of that period - it was, in fact, the best. It won both titles that year. Le Mans, of course, evaded it, but in a straight, full-season, championship fight with both Audi and Porsche, Toyota won both titles, with five race wins (four for the lead squad) from eight. In that year, and that year alone, it was the best.

I'm not sure why you - or anyone - would think that means I think Toyota was the best overall from 2012-2017 inclusive, because at no point have I said that...

You're literally making the same grammatical argument as the person in my hypothetical, and yet you seem to agree with me that it is a ridiculous argument to make as long as it isn't you who's making it.

 

[Imari]

Super GT is mostly Japanese cars with a sprinkle of Euro cars. This is like referencing Nascar and saying there aren't many Japanese car wins. LOL

Lol indeed. I know Toyota's not American so they must be a Euro brand. Where are they from, Romania? Sure would be nice if Japan could catch a break in Nascar, but we all know how Japan has never been able to compete there.

List of NASCAR Manufacturers' champions - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Famine]

You're literally making the same grammatical argument as the person in my hypothetical, and yet you seem to agree with me that it is a ridiculous argument to make as long as it isn't you who's making it.

Weird take, and no, I'm not.

Have another run through and see if you can spot where I say Toyota was the best WEC manufacturer from 2012-2017 because it won the title in 2014 (actually two). That would make it at least similar to your hypothetical person who says Red Bull was the best F1 manufacturer from 2014-2022 because it won the title in 2022 (actually two, but then we'd also have to consider the 2021 WDC). Since I didn't, of course, you won't find it - and at that point your analogy kind of falls apart.

Again, all I said was that Toyota was actually the best WEC team in 2014, when it won both titles. Which is pretty much the definition of being the best in a given championship. Anything else is just invention, and I'm not sure what the motivation for such pretence would be...

 

[McLaren]

I think to drive @mattikake's point home we should be comparing the NON LMP, NON Prototype, NON F1 cars, outside of WRC (no rally racing). Then we see how many wins Japanese cars have as a whole.

That would be cherry picking.

From what a remember its not too many when racing with Corvette, 911, BMW, etc cars.

The R32 was racing M3s in the Australian Touring Car Championship. IMSA back in the day had Japanese cars competing against those cars.

As @MonoTonouS touched on, Mazda was successful in it. The RX7 won the GTU class 1980-1987 which saw it compete against 914s & 911s. In 1984, the RX-7 won the GTO Class which fielded M1s, 911s, Camaros, Firebirds, Corvettes, & others that year. Then there's this famous RX-7:

which won the GTO class in 1991 racing alongside Mustangs, Corvettes, & Camaros.

Championships<!-- --> | Driver Database

www.driverdb.com

These cars that race the Viper GTS-R, Corvette C5R/C6R/C7R, 911, Ford GTLM, etc, those classes, no Japanese cars are competing.

This is more cherry picking by specifically picking cars in an era the Japanese sports cars had since retired; the Viper was the one of the American bunch that saw time against the Japanese icons of the 90's, really.

If you want to actually expand upon these cars, in 1995, there were Callaway Corvettes in the GT2 class competing against a NSX, a Skyline, & a Supra alongside the 911 GT2s.

Take a look at who won the class & 8th overall.

The GTSR debuted in 1996 & competed against the remaining Skylines, but both cars were clearly outclassed in GT1. By the time the C5R came around, the Viper's glory days were over anyway & Chevy might as well have raced themselves throughout ALMS.

I mean someone show me a Ford GTLM, C8R, 911 RSR class cars and a Japanese car racing them. I dont think theres any, is there?

A Japanese car literally won 2nd in GTD Pro last year in IMSA behind a 911 & ahead of the C8.R.

It's almost bizarre in a way because these are the very series where those prototypes we're "not supposed to compare" are in. It's as if in throughout the last 30+ years, where Chevy, Ford, & Dodge were gunning for GT1/2/GTD/etc. victories, Toyota, Nissan, & Mazda were shooting for overall wins.

 

[jergto]

Lol indeed. I know Toyota's not American so they must be a Euro brand. Where are they from, Romania? Sure would be nice if Japan could catch a break in Nascar, but we all know how Japan has never been able to compete there.

View attachment 1222704

List of NASCAR Manufacturers' champions - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

This went over your head, what street car does Toyota make that is close to being their Nascar racecar? None, so I'm not talking about Nascar. I'm asking what Japanese sports car has competed with the Corvettes, 911, Vipers in road racing and won? I'm not trying to hand pick these results, to me if its an LMP car/prototype/something that doesn't resemble a sports car they make (like nascar) then is it really a comparison?

We're comparing the sports cars these brands make and how in the GT series it seems the Japanese car is superb when it comes to racing. Its a Japanese game so the bias is obvious. I've been wanting to see, IRL, a R35 GTR or Supra or NSX built race cars take on the Corvette/Vipers/911 race cars but we really rarely see it.

That would be cherry picking.

The R32 was racing M3s in the Australian Touring Car Championship. IMSA back in the day had Japanese cars competing against those cars.

As @MonoTonouS touched on, Mazda was successful in it. The RX7 won the GTU class 1980-1987 which saw it compete against 914s & 911s. In 1984, the RX-7 won the GTO Class which fielded M1s, 911s, Camaros, Firebirds, Corvettes, & others that year. Then there's this famous RX-7:

which won the GTO class in 1991 racing alongside Mustangs, Corvettes, & Camaros.

Championships<!-- --> | Driver Database

www.driverdb.com

This is more cherry picking by specifically picking cars in an era the Japanese sports cars had since retired; the Viper was the one of the American bunch that saw time against the Japanese icons of the 90's, really.

If you want to actually expand upon these cars, in 1995, there were Callaway Corvettes in the GT2 class competing against a NSX, a Skyline, & a Supra alongside the 911 GT2s.

Take a look at who won the class & 8th overall.

The GTSR debuted in 1996 & competed against the remaining Skylines, but both cars were clearly outclassed in GT1. By the time the C5R came around, the Viper's glory days were over anyway & Chevy might as well have raced themselves throughout ALMS.

A Japanese car literally won 2nd in GTD Pro last year in IMSA behind a 911 & ahead of the C8.R.

It's almost bizarre in a way because these are the very series where those prototypes we're "not supposed to compare" are in. It's as if in throughout the last 30+ years, where Chevy, Ford, & Dodge were gunning for GT1/2/GTD/etc. victories, Toyota, Nissan, & Mazda were shooting for overall wins.

This was the answer I was looking for. I stopped following GTD/GTLM after Corvette went to C8, but did attend a race at Laguna Seca earlier last year.
Someone posted about them competing in FIA GT and when I looked at the late 90s results I didnt see many Japanese cars, I didn't look at early 90s. Thats my fault. https://www.racingsportscars.com/championship/FIA GT.html

I guess you can say its cherry picking but to me not really, I'm looking at it from a time perspective like late 90s to today. I get the Japanese cars were dominant in early 90s, but thats 30 years ago. This is like a Ford fanboy talking about F1 wins when they havent won in a very long time.

It's almost bizarre in a way because these are the very series where those prototypes we're "not supposed to compare" are in. It's as if in throughout the last 30+ years, where Chevy, Ford, & Dodge were gunning for GT1/2/GTD/etc. victories, Toyota, Nissan, & Mazda were shooting for overall wins.

Uhh no. Again, I'm not including prototype cars because they don't resemble a streetcar just like a nascar doesn't represent a streetcar. It seems Toyota was the only one to pit their car against the modern sports cars. I'm actually surprised Nissan hasn't with the R35.

 

[ScottPuss20]

This is such a stupid topic and totally baseless to the point of absurdity. You have to be quite delusional to think that the Japanese cars in this game are intentionally made to handle better than American ones. And then someone launches a scathing attack on Japanese motorsport and how seemingly hopeless they are at it? What a car crash of a thread.

 

[jergto]

This is such a stupid topic and totally baseless to the point of absurdity. You have to be quite delusional to think that the Japanese cars in this game are intentionally made to handle better than American ones. And then someone launches a scathing attack on Japanese motorsport and how seemingly hopeless they are at it? What a car crash of a thread.

You're taking this way to serious, all we're doing is having a discussion all stemming from the Japanese cars having more favoritism/bias vs the other cars. I mean should we make a list? I can't put turbos on any of the American v8/v10 cars. The Viper I have IRL is gunmetal and the color in the game hasnt been updated since GT6, a silverish faded torquise. Absolutely pathetic.

 

[McLaren]

This was the answer I was looking for. I stopped following GTD/GTLM after Corvette went to C8, but did attend a race at Laguna Seca earlier last year.
Someone posted about them competing in FIA GT and when I looked at the late 90s results I didnt see many Japanese cars, I didn't look at early 90s. Thats my fault. https://www.racingsportscars.com/championship/FIA GT.html

I guess you can say its cherry picking but to me not really, I'm looking at it from a time perspective like late 90s to today. I get the Japanese cars were dominant in early 90s, but thats 30 years ago. This is like a Ford fanboy talking about F1 wins when they havent won in a very long time.

Looking at a specific time frame would be cherry picking. You brought up a select group of cars built past the glory days of the NSX/Skyline/Supra competing outside Japan. The Viper barely competed against the Corvette as they bowed out just as the C5R was in its prime & all the other Vipers were privateer teams in different series around the world.

Not sure why you decided to share up, "this is like a Ford fanboy talking about F1" though. Proclaiming about how the Japanese haven't competed against the Viper/Corvette/911/Ford GT is of the same mindset, when the Japanese are the ones who have been winning the actual championships.
The last 5 years of IMSA has been won outright by a Japanese brand in 2019, 2020, & 2022.

 

[jergto]

Looking at a specific time frame would be cherry picking. You brought up a select group of cars built past the glory days of the NSX/Skyline/Supra competing outside Japan. The Viper barely competed against the Corvette as they bowed out just as the C5R was in its prime & all the other Vipers were privateer teams in different series around the world.

Not sure why you decided to share up, "this is like a Ford fanboy talking about F1" though. Proclaiming about how the Japanese haven't competed against the Viper/Corvette/911/Ford GT is of the same mindset, when the Japanese are the ones who have been winning the actual championships.
The last 5 years of IMSA has been won outright by a Japanese brand in 2019, 2020, & 2022.

Again, looks like you're cherry picking these wins when comparing PROTOTYPE, and even then thats 3/9 for Acura, when GM has 6/9. As much as the prototypes are at the top overall, they can't be driven on the street. Nobody is going to remember those cars, just who won.

Also, 1 championship from Japan in the NON prototype.

 

[AmyUD06]

@Famine I absolutely applaud your patience and tolerance. If I were in your shoes, I would've wielded that ban hammer long ago.