Has anyone else noticed this?!

[RACECAR]

"the Japanese have always been completely out-classed by every developed nation in motorsport since... ever."

Hmmmm

 

[jergto]

^ LOL, i skimmed through this thread and missed that. I take back what I said about trying to drive a point home. He on his own!

I'd never say that since the Japanese make superior sport bikes, although I ride an S1000RR. Also F1 winning with a Honda motor.. oof

 

[Chikane_GTR]

@Famine I absolutely applaud your patience and tolerance. If I were in your shoes, I would've wielded that ban hammer long ago.

Why would I be ban? I was having a civil discussion with Famine and I learned a few thing as well. In all it was civil and within the AUP.

Unless you mean someone else in which case.

 

[Imari]

This went over your head, what street car does Toyota make that is close to being their Nascar racecar? None, so I'm not talking about Nascar.

Lol, you're the one who brought up Nascar in the first place. You said Super GT with Euro cars was like saying there aren't many Japanese wins in Nascar... so did you mean, it's like saying there's lots?

Just admit that Japanese cars in Nascar was a silly example that you didn't think through before you typed it. Japanese cars win plenty in Nascar. That's all I'm saying.

Again, I'm not including prototype cars because they don't resemble a streetcar just like a nascar doesn't represent a streetcar.

At what point is a car sufficiently dissimilar from a streetcar?

Pretty much any "road" car in a racing series is going to have a welded cage, different suspension, different wheels and tyres, added aero, probably at minimum a different engine tune and modified intakes and exhaust, if not an entirely different engine. The number of race series where vehicles from different manufacturers compete in a form that is largely similar to how they are on the road is very small, because road going cars aren't balanced for racing against each other.

The idea that road cars from different countries are imbalanced in game (somehow) isn't something you can confirm or deny by looking at the results of race cars. At the very least you'd just have to get data on the real cars and compare them with what's in game, and ideally you'd just back to back a real car and the game and see how they fare.

^ LOL, i skimmed through this thread and missed that. I take back what I said about trying to drive a point home. He on his own!

There you go. Now you're understanding why you're getting pushback. Glad to have you on the side of sanity.

 

[McLaren]

Again, looks like you're cherry picking these wins when comparing PROTOTYPE, and even then thats 3/9 for Acura, when GM has 6/9.

You missed the point; I wasn't cherry picking for the sake of it. I was addressing the redundancy of your analogy that swipes away achievements because they "haven't won in a long time" seeing as the Japanese manufacturers have won in recent times, just not directly against the cars you try to pinhole them against, only-two of which are even still competing, iirc.

Nobody is going to remember those cars, just who won.

Which again, would negate your analogy of Ford in F1. You said, "I get the Japanese cars were dominant in early 90s, but that's 30 years ago" & yet, Japanese race cars are as relevant as they were 30 years ago because they are winning. Honda/Acura has recent wins in IMSA, Toyota has won the last 5 24 Hours of LeMans. I'm not sure if you're going to once again, try to hand wave these achievements away by attempting to only compare road-based cars because that wouldn't make a difference to your quoted statement; these cars will be remembered more than anything else as the overall winners.

Also, 1 championship from Japan in the NON prototype.

This is still cherry picking & border line moving goal posts for someone who originally said, "I mean someone show me a Ford GTLM, C8R, 911 RSR class cars and a Japanese car racing them. I dont think theres any, is there?"

You're essentially going from, "Show me a Japanese car competing" to "Show me a Japanese car winning".

 

[xtroplay]

Weird take, and no, I'm not.

Have another run through and see if you can spot where I say Toyota was the best WEC manufacturer from 2012-2017 because it won the title in 2014 (actually two). That would make it at least similar to your hypothetical person who says Red Bull was the best F1 manufacturer from 2014-2022 because it won the title in 2022 (actually two, but then we'd also have to consider the 2021 WDC). Since I didn't, of course, you won't find it - and at that point your analogy kind of falls apart.

Again, all I said was that Toyota was actually the best WEC team in 2014, when it won both titles. Which is pretty much the definition of being the best in a given championship. Anything else is just invention, and I'm not sure what the motivation for such pretence would be...

So then your response to him saying that Toyota wasn't the best from 2012-2017 was literally entirely irrelevant and he was completely correct (at least with that specific sentence, I'm not a fan of his actual argument, I just think that your responses to this particular sentence are absolutely absurd, and objectively incorrect) , since one championship in that time period does not make them the best, as any native English speaker would agree.

 

[Famine]

So then your response to him saying that Toyota wasn't the best from 2012-2017 was literally entirely irrelevant and he was completely correct (at least with that specific sentence, I'm not a fan of his actual argument, I just think that your responses to this particular sentence are absolutely absurd, and objectively incorrect) , since one championship in that time period does not make them the best, as any native English speaker would agree.

No. It makes them the best in that one season, as I actually said, which is within that range of times, as I actually said.

As I've repeatedly pointed this out, a native English-speaker should have picked up on it by now, rather than continuing to pretend things that weren't said for whatever reason.

 

[Nathan88]

US performance cars are generally considered to offer the best performance-to-cost option. On track they're also competitive as they tend to have higher power levels than their European & Japanese rivals. In terms of road car driving, they aren't really suitable for UK B-roads, so haven't got the following Japanese cars gained. That's just a product of their target market, cross-country US driving favours higher horsepower models, with a softer suspension set-up.

On the racing front it's pointless trying to classify brands by country. The Toyota LMH chassis is designed & built in Germany, the engine & hybrid is developed in Japan. The Toyota WRC car is built in Finland. The Glickenhaus LMH chassis & engine are designed & built in Italy. The Porsche LMDh uses a US Multimatic chassis. The Cadillac LMDh uses an Italian Dallara chassis. The Mercedes F1 chassis & engine is designed & built in the UK. Indycar chassis are built by Dallara in Italy. While back in the day, Penske's Champ Cars where designed & built in the UK, with the Mercedes engines produced by Ilmor in the UK.

 

[Tired Tyres]

Ok for that year Toyota was the best I give them that. But when you add the seasons from 2012 to 2017 you cant just forget the fact Porsche won 3 and Audi won 2 many will see Porsche winning 3 and say they were the best.

You very clearly don't watch WEC or you would know how competitive Toyota was in EVERY season except 2013 and 2015.

 

[kjeldsen]

delete

 

[mk5]

Have some upgrades on my GT350R and it feels so good to drive.

 

[lbpomg95]

3 pages of arguing the real-world competitiveness of Japanese brands in motorsport when the original question was basically "does anyone else find American cars hard to drive compared to Japanese cars in GT7?"

 

[i386]

3 pages of arguing the real-world competitiveness of Japanese brands in motorsport when the original question was basically "does anyone else find American cars hard to drive compared to Japanese cars in GT7?"

"What is the internet?"

 

[Talon16]

I like turtles.

 

[Famine]

I like turtles.

Why do you hate tortoises so bad, tortoise hater?

[/The Internet Ministry of Wildly Inferring Unwritten Sentiment]

 

[Ryan Dungey]

This thread is comedy gold enjoying it whilst on my work break 😂 seems like some people aren’t educated on Japanese racing history head into GT7 you can learn some of it there 😂

 

[Chikane_GTR]

@Famine Ok 1 more thing if you take all 3 manufacturers Audi, Porsche, Toyota and add up all there wins from 2012 to 2017 which one comes out on top?

 

[Famine]

@Famine Ok 1 more thing if you take all 3 manufacturers Audi, Porsche, Toyota and add up all there wins from 2012 to 2017 which one comes out on top?

Porsche. By one. From both of the other two

Porsche 17
Audi 16
Toyota 16

Toyota had the most races in that time period, missing only the first two rounds of 2012 (its first season), while Porsche didn't race until 2014 and Audi left at the end of 2016.

 

[RacingFan1]

Gran Turismo has always been japanese car biased, that's undeniable. Both in quantity of cars and also in handling/performance.

However, "American cars" and "handling" usually don't come together very well, I have to say.

 

[B80]

Gran Turismo has always been japanese car biased, that's undeniable. Both in quantity of cars and also in handling/performance.

However, "American cars" and "handling" usually don't come together very well, I have to say.

Yeah and irl, perception in UK seems to be that you get a lot of HP for your money with US cars, but they don't handle as well as Euro high/higher performance cars - lack finesse.

Ford Mustangs for example, usually significantly cheaper than say RS4, M3 and C63's.

You don't usually see any Corvettes over here though, although did see one last summer and it looked/sounded immense... assume it was imported.

 

[Grimm6Jack]

Whoever slated the Japanese history of motorsport, is probably someone who either doesn't follow motorsport at all or is surely having a certain agenda with it.
Several times in history have the Japanese beat both American and European cars across several different categories of racing. As posted several times already.

Also the Audi Toyota comparison in Endurance races. Toyota having no competition between 2018-now. Then how about Audi between 2000 and 2006?

And then let's forget that it's 1 Japanese vs 2 European (Audi and Porsche) and both of which have huge history and experience from past Endurance Races. Toyota had a long break between 1999 and 2012, and yet when they came back, they won one WEC championship 2 years later and were fierce competition for most of the 2012-2017 period.

 

[OldandSlow]

Whoever slated the Japanese history of motorsport, is probably someone who either doesn't follow motorsport at all or is surely having a certain agenda with it.
Several times in history have the Japanese beat both American and European cars across several different categories of racing. As posted several times already.

Also the Audi Toyota comparison in Endurance races. Toyota having no competition between 2018-now. Then how about Audi between 2000 and 2006?

And then let's forget that it's 1 Japanese vs 2 European (Audi and Porsche) and both of which have huge history and experience from past Endurance Races. Toyota had a long break between 1999 and 2012, and yet when they came back, they won one WEC championship 2 years later and were fierce competition for most of the 2012-2017 period.

Yep, "every dog has his day".

Every major manufacturer has enough engineers and resources to dominate any motorsport category they choose to. It's just a matter of priorities for them.

 

[Nathan88]

It would be amusing to look back on this thread if Cadillac win in WEC and at Le Mans. Which is a pretty good bet, given they have a proven package, and look set to have three cars at Le Mans.

But be in no doubt, going into this season Toyota are the team to beat. However, given the nature of the regs, any well prepared car has a shot at victory.

 

[Chikane_GTR]

Whoever slated the Japanese history of motorsport, is probably someone who either doesn't follow motorsport at all or is surely having a certain agenda with it.
Several times in history have the Japanese beat both American and European cars across several different categories of racing. As posted several times already.

Also the Audi Toyota comparison in Endurance races. Toyota having no competition between 2018-now. Then how about Audi between 2000 and 2006?

And then let's forget that it's 1 Japanese vs 2 European (Audi and Porsche) and both of which have huge history and experience from past Endurance Races. Toyota had a long break between 1999 and 2012, and yet when they came back, they won one WEC championship 2 years later and were fierce competition for most of the 2012-2017 period.

What does history and experience have anything to do with it? Porsche last win at le man was in 1998 and yet they come back in 2014 and won 3 le mans in a row with a brand new P1 car.

 

[luv2drive]

I have to say this has been a fascinating thread to read with my morning coffee. I got into GT5 back in the day and have come back to GT7 because I love the fantasy of driving and racing these amazing cars I would never have the opportunity to in real life.

To that end, I'm not nearly as knowledgeable about the sport of racing and all of the various championships as many of you debating the topic.

As an "unbiased 3rd party" in this regard, I have to say I have enjoyed reading the debate, and it has been educational.

Not to debate the fine points, I think the fact that there has been such a healthy debate on the topic with various points being offered by several people tends to negate the assertion that "Japanese cars have been 'completely' outclassed in the history of motorsport" (paraphrasing).

Also, to the OP's point, I have always perceived a slight Japanese bias in GT (only familiar with GT5,6,7), which seems natural given the origin of its creator. I don't think the bias as heavy as some, however, and as others have said, there are some great cars from all manufacturers across the globe in the game.

I'm just a casual "sim racer", but GTPlanet has been a great resource to come to over the years to connect with other fans of the genre, and understand how to get more enjoyment out of a game which has provided countless hours of fun and entertainment over the years.

 

[RacingFan1]

Yeah and irl, perception in UK seems to be that you get a lot of HP for your money with US cars, but they don't handle as well as Euro high/higher performance cars - lack finesse.

Ford Mustangs for example, usually significantly cheaper than say RS4, M3 and C63's.

You don't usually see any Corvettes over here though, although did see one last summer and it looked/sounded immense... assume it was imported.

Yes and it's not necessarily about the horsepower in the end, but performance. You can have 500 or 600 hp but if the car is too heavyweight and handles like crap then its not gonna perform very well.

 

[Tired Tyres]

What does history and experience have anything to do with it? Porsche last win at le man was in 1998 and yet they come back in 2014 and won 3 le mans in a row with a brand new P1 car.

You didn't watch the races....

 

[jergto]

You missed the point; I wasn't cherry picking for the sake of it. I was addressing the redundancy of your analogy that swipes away achievements because they "haven't won in a long time" seeing as the Japanese manufacturers have won in recent times, just not directly against the cars you try to pinhole them against, only-two of which are even still competing, iirc.

Which again, would negate your analogy of Ford in F1. You said, "I get the Japanese cars were dominant in early 90s, but that's 30 years ago" & yet, Japanese race cars are as relevant as they were 30 years ago because they are winning. Honda/Acura has recent wins in IMSA, Toyota has won the last 5 24 Hours of LeMans. I'm not sure if you're going to once again, try to hand wave these achievements away by attempting to only compare road-based cars because that wouldn't make a difference to your quoted statement; these cars will be remembered more than anything else as the overall winners.

This is still cherry picking & border line moving goal posts for someone who originally said, "I mean someone show me a Ford GTLM, C8R, 911 RSR class cars and a Japanese car racing them. I dont think theres any, is there?"

You're essentially going from, "Show me a Japanese car competing" to "Show me a Japanese car winning".

Again, those wins are prototype, we arent comparing the basis of since you can't drive them on the street nor do they resemble anything the car manufacturers produce. Not sure why you're bringing it up several times now. Do I have to use a half ass analogy which you will keep bring up like Ford not winning in F1 in awhile? I really don't get your point. You're clearly cherry picking the prototype wins when the cars in question are street driven cars with op talking about a c7z. Let me know when you can drive these prototypes on the street and if you plan on getting one, what mods you plan to do.

Japan has 1 championship (GTD) in 9 years for both GTPro/LM and GTD and further when looking back (IMSA, Tudor, ALMS). I'm not sure about the other race organizations. So there's still something to be said about the Japanese manufacturers campaigning their sports cars for sports car racing at the international stage. We need to see more of this, not sure why Nissan has tucked its tail with the 14 year old GTR. Those cars are the king of roll racing, but not road course racing.

 

[Chikane_GTR]

You didn't watch the races....

You mean stuff like this yeah I saw the races.


In racing a win is a win its not Porsche fault Toyotas p1 car couldn't finish the race and lost on the last lap.

 

[mattikake]

This thread is gold

Got to promote some fun discussion when you're bored.

I stand by my point which is Japanese manufacturers only tend to win when the current status quo leave and that GT7 is shamelessly biased.

Six - and consecutively at that - and that covered two polar opposite regulation changes on engines with turbocharged units being compulsory in 1986 (having been technically optional since Renault introduced one in 1977), the regulations relaxed in 1987 to allow naturally aspirated engines, and then turbochargers being banned in 1989. Honda still won from 1986-1991 without interruption, and with one of the most dominant F1 cars in history. Honda also built the engines for RBPT to win the title in 2022.

I'm not sure where Ford's supposed dominance comes from - it hasn't won a title since 1981 - but it's odd you'd miss out Renault which eclipses it by 12 titles to 10.


WRC's modern Group A/WRC/WRC1 era is absolutely dominated by Japanese marques too, with Subaru, Mitsubishi, and Toyota picking up ten manufacturer and 15 driver titles. Only France is comparable - with more manufacturer titles at 11 but fewer driver titles at 11 - with the other 15 manufacturer titles going to Lancia (Italy) with six, VW (Germany) with four, Ford (UK) with three, and Hyundai (South Korea) with two.

I'm also not sure where they "only started winning when Group B was banned" came from; Lancia won six straight titles after Group B was banned.


It's also quite odd you're drawing a line for F1 at only modern championships (excluding the weird Ford thing) and for WRC at only historic championships.

Ford powered half the F1 grid for about 20 years with the DFV, including constructors champions. It's widely regarded as the best F1 engine ever built. So I'm talking historically as well as the present - the whole thing.

As I said with WRC, Japan was literally nowhere until Group B was banned. Most of the top manufacturers and independents left or lost interest. Only after Audi showing the way with the quattro did the Japanese super saloon's take over...

...which is a similar story with WEC. There's almost no other manufacturers competing. Kind of easy to win when there is no-one to race.

And when they do try to race where there is unlimited competition with an entire car, not just an engine as per F1, they have failed embarassingly.