Dont change the handling

[UkHardcore23]

Quite the opposite, how can i be faster (beating guys in time attack races) when slipping and sliding as to when i am staying within the edge of the limits of grip. I'm not talking about sliding a few corners, i'm talking about sliding every single corner. And that's with race spec car on time attack mode. That does not say "spot on" to me.

I'm not here just to talk **** about shift either, I'm here cause I'm still playing and trying to find what good physics you guys are talking about. I'm using PS3/G25 on Elite/hard, maybe somebody can give me a tune for a nissan GTR that can hang with the big boys of time attack while sticking within the realm of grip driving.

Physics is better that shift1 for sure but it falls short on the same areas, this is close to the limits of grip and past the limits. So if you drive below the limits it handles great, superb even ( except for some base cars )

If you are sliding in every corner there is something far wrong with either your upgrades/tunings or your control settings are far wrong.

Could be the PS3 version who knows...on the 360 once the cars are upgraded they handle amazingly well compared to the standard road cars you buy, no sliding whatsoever.

 

[RacerPaul]

Some handling and control problems are so in your face that it beggars belief - Go to "Modern C
Invitational", drive the Exige and tell me that it handles OK and is nicely controllable...

I have to agree there, that was shocking

 

[Widowmaker00]

If you are sliding in every corner there is something far wrong with either your upgrades/tunings or your control settings are far wrong.

Could be the PS3 version who knows...on the 360 once the cars are upgraded they handle amazingly well compared to the standard road cars you buy, no sliding whatsoever.

I works converted my civic and it skates across the track like its on ice.

 

[tinram]

If you are sliding in every corner there is something far wrong with either your upgrades/tunings or your control settings are far wrong.

Could be the PS3 version who knows...on the 360 once the cars are upgraded they handle amazingly well compared to the standard road cars you buy, no sliding whatsoever.

What car are you using to beat the time attack races, i'm using a works nissan GTR, i'm winning the races just fine, but it's not as much fun (sliding). Maybe another car would be better.

 

[deftonesmx17]

Some handling and control problems are so in your face that it beggars belief - Go to "Modern C Invitational", drive the Exige and tell me that it handles OK and is nicely controllable...

Ah the Lotus...commenting on it when talking about racing sims being flawed is almost cliche at this point.

GT5 must be horribly broken as well then, no? Remember the Elise Top Gear Challenge?

I'll bite though, I felt it handled just fine and was no less controllable than in any other modern so called "sim game".

 

[brambos]

Ah the Lotus...commenting on it when talking about racing sims being flawed is almost cliche at this point.

GT5 must be horribly broken as well then, no? Remember the Elise Top Gear Challenge?

I'll bite though, I felt it handled just fine and was no less controllable than in any other modern so called "sim game".

Including a horrible Lotus challenge in a racing sim is going to be the next big meme. Just wait for FM4 to let you drive an Esprit V8 on wooden wheels around Daytona.

 

[///M-Spec]

I'm not going to voice a strong opinion either way. Seems like there is a comfortable middle ground between "they got everything wrong" and "they did everything perfectly".

I will argue though, that we should separate handling issues that are specific to a single car and the general behavior of all cars in the game.

I just did Modern Inv C recently and agree the Exige S has serious control issues out of the box. But after I won the event, it took about 5 minutes of tinkering with the setup before I got it under control.

So the real question should be "is this an accurate representation of the real Exige S?" I can't really say because I've never driven one. If someone here has, I'd be very curious to know.

But the fact that changing setup makes the car quite drivable leads me to believe that there isn't a huge fundamental underlying issue with the physics. Just whoever did the default setup for the car may have gotten it completely wrong.

I've driven a lot of the cars available in the game in real life. I own one of them right now in fact. I also have track and autocross experience and a fairly decent enthusiast level understanding of vehicle dynamics. Generally, I think they feel 'reasonably convincing'.

The B7 S4 is an exercise in managing entry speeds and mid-corner understeer. But it is very stable and you can take a lot of liberties with it. The game does a good job of representing this.

The Z4 M is camber challenged due to its front struts and stock alignment settings so an aggressive turn-in will cause the front end to wash out. So you try to mitigate with trail braking and rotate with the throttle. I can do that in real life and it works in the game.

That's pretty good, I'd say.

On the PC, I do see a slight amount of what people are calling 'input lag'. But I notice that if you look at the telemetry while your are driving, the steering cue in the lower left corner shows very quick, nearly instantaneous response while the hands lag behind more.

Moreover, the vehicle seems (to me) to take fractionally longer than it should to begin transferring weight. As if the physics engine isn't running at enough cycles per second to make it totally realistic. I'm not a programmer or a math guru; I'm just guessing here.


Anyway, this post ended up being way longer than I intended. Let's try to stay away from extreme viewpoints to keep the conversation useful, okay?


M / AvusSilber

 

[spapadillion]

How dare you, sirs. I love the Exige in S2U. I've upgraded mine to B1137 (everything except turbo, body kit and works) and it drives absolutely brilliantly.

 

[tinram]

GT5 must be horribly broken as well then, no? Remember the Elise Top Gear Challenge?

Missed the point on the top gear challenge, it was on comfort hard tires for the "challenge". S2U on the other hand cannot use that excuse.

 

[hedges]

it's the same with every racing title. Some people just don't care, some are defensive fanboys no matter what, some have no concept of what driving is like or what level of realism (or at least proper driving feel) should be expected from a game/sim and some actually know and care about the driving aspects of driving games/sims.

When it comes to the control in shift 2, the consensus among experienced gamers/simmers and those who drive cars in real life seem to be quite clear in that it's ruined by steering lag (ps3/g25 is my reference btw). That point is in itself easily testable and quantifiable. It can't be fixed by any settings in the game (the effects of it can be made slightly less game-breaking by some tweaks though, depending on the car and the setup, but it does not go away).

Some handling and control problems are so in your face that it beggars belief - go to "modern c invitational", drive the exige and tell me that it handles ok and is nicely controllable...

Unfortunately the lag is hindering my ability to properly judge the physics/handling itself since input and response is so disconnected. However, i do know that there's work to do for sms to get s2u anywhere close to what they claimed it was; painting your cars and blurring the graphics and so on, is not the most important aspect of getting the "racing feeling" - that begins with how the car handles and can be controlled, and that should be the single most important thing in any racing game/sim.

Dj
--

+100

 

[ChaddingtonB]

If anyone from EA or SMS reads this - please don't change the driving physics or handling to make it "easier" or "smoother". We have GT5 for that. I can't comment on the lag because I have not noticed it with DS3 or DFGT. I - and others - like the "on the ragged edge" feel to the racing in this game. It forces you to concentrate, draws you in and makes for an exciting game.

Flame away!

Agree , I prefer this game way more than smoother ones. It feels like you have to work to win, and making stupid mistakes ruins your car/race. I like how seeing an AI car in the mirror scares you instead of puts you to sleep. Once I learned to stay on the road and stop using competitors as corner-bumpers the game's become way more fun.

 

[UkHardcore23]

What car are you using to beat the time attack races, i'm using a works nissan GTR, i'm winning the races just fine, but it's not as much fun (sliding). Maybe another car would be better.

I went with the new GTR although i did not Works convert it and it was a little crazy...the car really isnt suited from going to a C to B, dumped it and now using an upgraded Lambo LP 560 which was a B to begin with and still is! It is a dream to drive. 👍

I guess some cars just aint suited from jumping up classes.

 

[spapadillion]

This thread makes me smile. Next thing you know I'll be reading about how folks have stopped using power steering fluid in their cars because driving w/ the pump in full working order doesn't present enough of a challenge.

 

[OLDSKOOLACURA]

When you call your self the most realistic racer that sets up expectations, there is no need to interpret what that means. Yet some are surprised why some folks just do not get it, why some folks can't just work with what they have.

It's like telling somebody it's "the most realistic" if you use some of your imagination. yey!

I'm in around 18% in shift playing the time attack races on hard/elite with G27/PS3. It just pisses me off that if i drive within the realm of physics (avoiding sliding and keeping within the tires grip) i can't keep up with the top guys. But if i just let go and slip and slide between corners i get the top time. It's just annoying.

I love that about the game, it makes you drive on the edge.

I do a few races and I have to take a break because I have to concentrate so hard

 

[paytonlow]

If anyone from EA or SMS reads this - please don't change the driving physics or handling to make it "easier" or "smoother". We have GT5 for that. I can't comment on the lag because I have not noticed it with DS3 or DFGT. I - and others - like the "on the ragged edge" feel to the racing in this game. It forces you to concentrate, draws you in and makes for an exciting game.

Flame away!

Agree

Sliding is faster IRL, but come at a price - very very quick tyre wear which cannot compensate for a few seconds lap time gain. You don't see professional drivers drifting in races, because pit-stop cost more time.

As for the cars, some of them by nature are hard to race, e.g. both McLaren cars, Corvette Z06, Viper SRT-10, CCX.
I'm making a list of easy handling cars if some are interested in - "S2U - Master list of best handling cars Out-of-Box".

Input lag? What is it
I'm on PC with XBOX360 Controller, everything is fine after adjusting sensitivity settings.

Just my two cents

 

[Dravonic]

You don't see professional drivers drifting in races, because drifting is slower.

By the way, the physics in this game are pretty much as weird as they were in the previous one. Takes a hell of a lot of patience and trial and error to get used to. At least now cars don't jump on you mid turn. I'm glad for that.

 

[Pakt Sardine]

Sliding is faster IRL, but come at a price - very very quick tyre wear which cannot compensate for a few seconds lap time gain. You don't see professional drivers drifting in races, because pit-stop cost more time.

Sliding is not faster by any stretch of the imagination. The main reason race drivers don't drift is because any loss of grip is a loss of speed. The only reason to "drift" (it's really just a touch of oversteer) is to counteract understeer.

 

[///M-Spec]

"Sliding" is not faster in real life.

A tire produces maximum grip at the very edge of adhesion. As this state approaches, forces acting on the tire produce what is called a 'slip angle'. This is the difference between the direction the tires are pointing in and the direction it is actually traveling in. Modern tires are designed to grip best in this narrow range of angles and this is when you are getting the maximum performance out of the tire. (there are other factors like temperature, but put those aside for the moment)

When the slip angle exceeds the maximum amount the tire is designed for, the tire then begins to slide. The amount of grip produced by a sliding tire is a mere fraction of what it can produce when it is not sliding.

This is why in real life, the first thing a high-performance driving instructor teaches you is to be smooth with your inputs. Slamming the wheel around and throwing the car into corners doesn't give you much control over that line between slipping and sliding.


AvusSilber

 

[paytonlow]

About drifting: (I planned not to argue/defend my opinion, but...)

Definition from Wikipedia - Drifting refers to a driving technique and to a motorsport where the driver intentionally over steers, causing loss of traction in the rear wheels through turns, while maintaining vehicle control and a high exit speed.

Drift Vs Grip Which Is Faster? General understanding is: Drifting is faster for production cars, but slower for race cars. Car settings and tracks are also important factors.

Is drifting a car faster than gripping in corners? Very similar answers.

So, I'm only half correct then, but so to you guys that think drifting is always slower.

Can we stop right here? It's quite off the topic - not about the game anymore.

 

[Scaff]

About drifting: (I planned not to argue/defend my opinion, but...)

Definition from Wikipedia - Drifting refers to a driving technique and to a motorsport where the driver intentionally over steers, causing loss of traction in the rear wheels through turns, while maintaining vehicle control and a high exit speed.

Drift Vs Grip Which Is Faster? General understanding is: Drifting is faster for production cars, but slower for race cars. Car settings and tracks are also important factors.

Is drifting a car faster than gripping in corners? Very similar answers.

You do realise that none of those links actually support your argument in any definitive form.

This is what tyre slip angle is in the form of a graph.

Notice that peak grip is achieved at around 4-5% slip (note this is not the same as sliding) and once you go above that then grip drops off. Drifting is well passed that 5% point, and provides less grip and less grip means lower cornering speeds.

So, I'm only half correct then, but so to you guys that think drifting is always slower.

Nope - sorry but your wrong.

Can we stop right here? It's quite off the topic - not about the game anymore.

It is off-topic, but you don't get to abandon it like that.

Read: http://www.creativecarcontrol.co.uk/modelgrip.htm and learn.

Scaff

 

[paytonlow]

OK, I'm deeply sorry for my opinion and insufficient supporting points that causing troubles here, and my appoligy to the TP as well (though flame started not aiming at the game )

Can we move on now, or do I need more bricks

 

[deftonesmx17]

Missed the point on the top gear challenge, it was on comfort hard tires for the "challenge". S2U on the other hand cannot use that excuse.

With ABS activated, comfort hard would have made no difference on straight line braking like it did in GT5's challenge.
It was nowhere near as out of control in the Shift 2 modern C trial event. The only guff the Lotus gave me during that event was a little oversteer when accelerating hard.....which was my own fault for not feathering the accelerator on turn exit.

 

[JJ72]

This thread makes me smile. Next thing you know I'll be reading about how folks have stopped using power steering fluid in their cars because driving w/ the pump in full working order doesn't present enough of a challenge.

actually, non assisted steering is MEGA fun indeed!

 

[FLIGHT50]

Agree , I prefer this game way more than smoother ones. It feels like you have to work to win, and making stupid mistakes ruins your car/race. I like how seeing an AI car in the mirror scares you instead of puts you to sleep. Once I learned to stay on the road and stop using competitors as corner-bumpers the game's become way more fun.

........and this my friend is why people are fleeing back to GT or bashing S2U altogether. You have to work to win. Even on the lower difficulty settings. I can't bang with alot of you but I do decent. The few guys that are on my Autolog are amazing drivers. I think I am decent but some of their times are 10-30 seconds faster than mine. I am on the Pro driver setting with Medium setting for the A.I. No stability control or traction control. I am glad to know that as or when I get better, there is a higher setting to challenge me. Wining too easy is no fun.

Its more adrenaline flowing when racing to see the guy ahead that you must catch and at the same time defend your position from guys constantly trying to pass you. Overall, there is not much wrong with Shift 2. I am not a hardcore racer but these game definitely makes me fell like I am.

 

[strtgng]

I like how seeing an AI car in the mirror scares you instead of puts you to sleep.

Agree with this - cars in my rear-view mirror in S2U are terrifying! Especially at night when the closer they are the bigger the shadow of my car is. Makes the game fun. A car in my rear-view mirror in GT5 just means I've gotten lazy and need to pick up the pace.

 

[Zer0]

With ABS activated, comfort hard would have made no difference on straight line braking like it did in GT5's challenge.

And it does not when you adjust the brake balance to something more realistic like 4/2 instead of the default 5/5.

Real life Elise tyres are more like Sport hard, in the Top Gear challenge are three grades below the real ones.