Convince me I should change to Traction Control 0

[xMAXIx79]

A good tip I found is to train yourself to apply 50% throttle or just below, in GTS and GT7 you can apply that usually right as you come off the brakes and you wont spin but will gain crucial momentum, apply more pressure once you feel confident.

Attention GTS does not have a linear accelerator pedal... GT7 does.

 

[Bullwinkle]

if you drive properly with at least one steering wheel

Wait, you drive with more than one steering wheel? At the same time?!

Just kidding 🤪

A good tip I found is to train yourself to apply 50% throttle or just below, in GTS and GT7 you can apply that usually right as you come off the brakes and you wont spin but will gain crucial momentum, apply more pressure once you feel confident.

I mentioned that I’ve been having some breakthroughs, and this early throttle approach is what I’ve been experimenting with. Thanks for confirming my suspicions although I’m not good enough to do it properly yet.

Attention GTS does not have a linear accelerator pedal... GT7 does.

This seems important. Are you saying that if I try 50% throttle through a turn that it won’t work? Does the linear accelerator affect this approach? Would 25% be better for example?

 

[xMAXIx79]

Wait, you drive with more than one steering wheel? At the same time?!

Just kidding 🤪

I mentioned that I’ve been having some breakthroughs, and this early throttle approach is what I’ve been experimenting with. Thanks for confirming my suspicions although I’m not good enough to do it properly yet.

This seems important. Are you saying that if I try 50% throttle through a turn that it won’t work? Does the linear accelerator affect this approach? Would 25% be better for example?

Non-linear throttle

This is probably a double-post but I searched and simply can't find the original. As this video clearly shows, the accelerator pedal is not linear: For me, this makes particularly difficult in long high-speed corners and ovals where precise control of the accelerator is required. It also...

www.gtplanet.net

The 50% is a good indication, but not universally applicable and in GTS 50% throttle position just wasn't 50% in play. In GT7, however, this works very well, but this can also mean that 50% can be too much. See the well-known and "unpopular" M6 on the CE of the Nürburgring Nordschleife. The M6 is very evil because it has a very high torque, probably the highest torque of all Gr3 vehicles, earlier than all other Gr3s I know of.


As I've said many times before, test out what you like best for yourself... if it also allows you to be able to drive as fast as you want/wish, then that's a good thing.
But at least that's my opinion... NEVER be ashamed or afraid to use TCS if you feel it will do you any good..
It always "grounds" me when I look at the daily qualifying sessions or browse through the CE's and see how many of my friends are faster than me. BUT it is sometimes interesting when I consider which times have not already been burned into the tables, even though I used TCS AND automatic transmission.

 

[Bullwinkle]

Non-linear throttle

This is probably a double-post but I searched and simply can't find the original. As this video clearly shows, the accelerator pedal is not linear: For me, this makes particularly difficult in long high-speed corners and ovals where precise control of the accelerator is required. It also...

www.gtplanet.net

The 50% is a good indication, but not universally applicable and in GTS 50% throttle position just wasn't 50% in play. In GT7, however, this works very well, but this can also mean that 50% can be too much. See the well-known and "unpopular" M6 on the CE of the Nürburgring Nordschleife. The M6 is very evil because it has a very high torque, probably the highest torque of all Gr3 vehicles, earlier than all other Gr3s I know of.


As I've said many times before, test out what you like best for yourself... if it also allows you to be able to drive as fast as you want/wish, then that's a good thing.
But at least that's my opinion... NEVER be ashamed or afraid to use TCS if you feel it will do you any good..
It always "grounds" me when I look at the daily qualifying sessions or browse through the CE's and see how many of my friends are faster than me. BUT it is sometimes interesting when I consider which times have not already been burned into the tables, even though I used TCS AND automatic transmission.

I see what you mean about the non-linear throttle. That would make cornering easier, but also has drawbacks that may not be an equal trade. Thanks for that information.

As for torque, I love torquey cars, especially BMWs! But I think they get me in trouble without TC on. This may be partly why I’m having trouble making the transition to TC0. I haven’t tried the CE for Nurburgring yet, so I’ll make that a target at some point.

 

[Bullwinkle]

Yes, you save the most recent video, link your account to YT and then upload it. But if it's too much don't worry, we can still help via this forum.

As promised, I’m posting two videos of my driving. It’s the 962 C on Sardinia, which is my fastest car in the track I’m most familiar with.

The first video is unedited, so it’s longer than the actual race. Regardless, I started off ok, but things came apart on lap 8. You can see my typical errors from that point on.


In this second video, same car and race more cleanly edited. This is only a day later and is so far my best run yet. A few gaffes, but overall I’m pretty happy with the progress. Significantly, I’m still 20 seconds slower than with TC1, so I’m still trying to smooth out my rough edges.


Comments are welcome, but please understand that I’m new so try to be constructive. I already know I stink and don’t need to be reminded! 😳

 

[xMAXIx79]

As promised, I’m posting two videos of my driving. It’s the 962 C on Sardinia, which is my fastest car in the track I’m most familiar with.

The first video is unedited, so it’s longer than the actual race. Regardless, I started off ok, but things came apart on lap 8. You can see my typical errors from that point on.


In this second video, same car and race more cleanly edited. This is only a day later and is so far my best run yet. A few gaffes, but overall I’m pretty happy with the progress. Significantly, I’m still 20 seconds slower than with TC1, so I’m still trying to smooth out my rough edges.


Comments are welcome, but please understand that I’m new so try to be constructive. I already know I stink and don’t need to be reminded! 😳

Look here...

I think that will help you. I only took a quick look at the first video... You have new "errors" when braking in the first few seconds... THAT costs you too much time. At the same time, your car will slow down, requiring you to accelerate harder from a lower gear. Try to get what is physically possible out of the car. BTW. Yes the car is fast but I prefer the Gr2 Nissan GT-R '16 there

 

[ketiux]

So far I’m significantly slower without TC.

We all are at the start. Takes time and patience.

I can see where I can improve, but I’m easily getting beat by the AI out of corners because I don’t feel like I can accelerate quickly enough without losing control.

Don't judge your driving based on the AI. On almost every race I've had against the AI, it always accelerate faster out of corners! When you race against people on the other hand...

Today was a good day though and I think I’ve learned a few things, so I expect I’ll improve as I go. It’s been less than a week so I need to be patient.

Edit: I guess it’s been exactly a week now, but the improvement over that time has been gratifying!

I can see you have been at it. I watched your first video and a good example is at minute 2:25... this is exactly what I said before, you feel the need the accelerate harder and earlier inducing oversteer in a car. What you will learn over time are the techniques to prevent or ameliorate that issue. For example, instead of exiting the corner on 1st gear, do it in 2nd gear since it will give you a more stable car and control over the torque. Overall, I can see you throttle input progressively being applied which is good!

 

[Mane]

Lots of great info and advice. I agree it is mostly degree of application of throttle dependent.
Hence for DualS players I suggest trialling both stick and trigger methods to see which has the best feel for you. Or snap the pad in half, use half with your foot to accelerate and they other half to steer? That might be a bit much.

 

[xMAXIx79]

Or...

 

[Bullwinkle]

I can see you have been at it. I watched your first video and a good example is at minute 2:25... this is exactly what I said before, you feel the need the accelerate harder and earlier inducing oversteer in a car. What you will learn over time are the techniques to prevent or ameliorate that issue. For example, instead of exiting the corner on 1st gear, do it in 2nd gear since it will give you a more stable car and control over the torque. Overall, I can see you throttle input progressively being applied which is good!

Thanks for the feedback. That spot at 2:25 is actually one of the reasons I used this particular video: usually I’d spin out and this was the exact first instance that I was able to catch my skid and recover. I’d forgotten that until you pointed it out. A lot of this improvement, by the way, has to do with my LSD adjustments. That has helped immensely based on the thread that was posted earlier in this discussion.

I totally forgot to add: my gears are very long because of the rolling starts. First is virtually useless when you never stop, so I make it pretty long and then space things out from there. It allows me to see se first gear around corners, and then have a tight progression to keep the RPMs up as I shift up. I may be getting this wrong, but when I try stock gearing it doesn’t improve my driving and only seems to give me one more thing to worry about (too much throttle in first). Maybe this is a crutch, but it’s served me well so far in all these rolling start races.

 

[Live25]

Man, what a difference a night of rest makes. I feel MUCH more confident now and my lap times are quickly approaching my TCS numbers.

That 50% throttle may have been the best to I’ve ever received. I’ve always tried to modulate my throttle because that’s what you do IRL, so it was just a slight adjustment to something I’d been doing all along.

 

[Bullwinkle]

Man, what a difference a night of rest makes. I feel MUCH more confident now and my lap times are quickly approaching my TCS numbers.

That 50% throttle may have been the best to I’ve ever received. I’ve always tried to modulate my throttle because that’s what you do IRL, so it was just a slight adjustment to something I’d been doing all along.

I hear ya. That will be my next project when I get back home. The other thing I did yesterday was to pick the squirreliest car I have, the Shelby Cobra, and use it on the new Watkins Glen track with no practice. It was excruciating, but once I started completing clean laps I got a lot better. When I returned to my usual Sardinia race it seemed like I had leveled up or something. I was so much better in an actual race car after learning how to wrangle the Cobra.

 

[mattikake]

This isn't meant to be as confrontational as the title sounds, but I'm trying to learn how to turn all the assists off and it's been less-than-productive so far (I keep ABS on because I lose way too much time braking without it). People insist that it will be faster because this is where you can scrub off tenths of a second from your time, but my lap times are going waaaay up. I know I'll learn and improve, but it's hard to feel like it is worth it when the FFB keeps changing and the physics seems to be a little off. But I'd like you to explain to my why I should make the change. What are the benefits? What are some points I need to pay attention to in order to improve?

After driving many hours on the Sardegna road circuit, here are some of my observations so far, in no particular order:

• Is it my imagination, or is braking distance reduced with TC0?
• Likewise, and this may not be my imagination, is it much easier to trail brake with TC0?
• It seems like less speed is scrubbed off on high speed turns with TC0 because there are no adjustments to power.
• My weakest link so far is coming out of tight turns. The ones on Sardegna that are less than 90 degrees are killing me. I feel like I have to really baby the throttle coming out of them, and that is where I'm losing the most time (to the tune of several seconds a lap). Will I ever regain those lost seconds?
• I tend to go with higher differential settings for stability. Will lower LSD settings counteract the tendency to spin out?
• Just a thought: does the gearing help with not spinning out? If I make 1st a little longer will it ease up on how fast the power is applied? Or keep it low and drop 2nd gear lower and short shift instead?
• Does Turbo vs. Naturally Aspirated matter? In other words, does the turbo lag kicking in late make it harder to control the throttle coming out of a tight corner? Am I more likely to spin out with a turbo?
• I run the Fanatec DD Pro wheel (and I think it has the CSL pedals). Will the quality of pedals make it easier to feather the throttle? I can't remember what it's called right now, but the higher quality pedals have more realistic resistance to give better feedback. Does this make a significant difference in throttle control? Or is that just for the experts?

Please feel free to correct or add to my observations. Any advice will be greatly appreciated!

Edit: New questions as I think of them. Also, please give me some kind of useful information in

I was stationary, using the menu.


So if I drove at 100mph in a 30mph limit, hit a car your family was in and killed them all, you wouldn't think I should be liable, you'd be happy to accept it as an accident?

I doubt that limiting the overall level of force feedback will be the final situation, it may well just be a short term response to whatever has brought it about, while they deal with whatever specifically caused the problem.

your comments, or at least explain your reasoning.

A little bit of slip gives better acceleration than neutral grip (removing slip means you can only ever be under maximum traction, rather than at it).

TC takes a small amount of slip away from you - it will always be under maximum slip. This is all you need to know. Yes, it's harder but being fast isn't meant to be easy.

 

[Live25]

I hear ya. That will be my next project when I get back home. The other thing I did yesterday was to pick the squirreliest car I have, the Shelby Cobra, and use it on the new Watkins Glen track with no practice.

That's EXACTLY why I used the swapped Mach I. 👍

 

[RX-7_FD3S]

Attention GTS does not have a linear accelerator pedal... GT7 does.

I should have been more precise but when I talk about 50% accel, I dont speak about the pedal being at 50% but the throttle graphic on the hud.

 

[Raceface1959]

Today I decided to just jump into the deep end of the pool and bought my favorite vintage red Mercedes race car from the fine folks at that high end auction place. Then it was off to Watkins to learn how to drive without traction control. Even beginning with TCS 1, it felt more realistic and immersive (maybe it's an easy car to drive or TCS 1 still assists too much) as well as a lot more fun. Each lap was faster than the last. Tomorrow I'll see what happens when it's at 0.

 

[Bullwinkle]

Today I decided to just jump into the deep end of the pool and bought my favorite vintage red Mercedes race car from the fine folks at that high end auction place. Then it was off to Watkins to learn how to drive without traction control. Even beginning with TCS 1, it felt more realistic and immersive (maybe it's an easy car to drive or TCS 1 still assists too much) as well as a lot more fun. Each lap was faster than the last. Tomorrow I'll see what happens when it's at 0.

Totally worth it! I’ve been doing Race C at Watkins this week without TC and it’s been a blast!

 

[hawkeyez]

Controller or Wheel I only ru ABS on the high setting (forget what it’s called) and countersteering assist on strong. That’s it. The only reason for countersteering is I like to push it through the corners and get the back end loose and with that on I sort of let the car straighten itself out. I’m going to slowly work off of counter steering assist. But I don’t think I’ll ever be able to remove abs.

 

[Bullwinkle]

Controller or Wheel I only ru ABS on the high setting (forget what it’s called) and countersteering assist on strong. That’s it. The only reason for countersteering is I like to push it through the corners and get the back end loose and with that on I sort of let the car straighten itself out. I’m going to slowly work off of counter steering assist. But I don’t think I’ll ever be able to remove abs.

Nobody turns off ABS. It’s not worth it unless you have some very expensive equipment. As for the counter steering assistance, from what I understand it is basically another kind of traction control and will steal your power from your car. I’ve been learning that you can do all the same things with good throttle control instead.

Now if I could only learn good throttle control. . .

 

[TFSI400]

I’m not sure if it’s already been mentioned, so apologies if so, but one good reason to turn traction control off is throwing a 700bhp+ R34 GTR around Trial Mountain, doing 4 wheel drifts and having an absolute blast!

Ok, you won’t exactly be competitive in terms of racing, but it’s so much fun 😁

 

[xMAXIx79]

Nobody turns off ABS. It’s not worth it unless you have some very expensive equipment. As for the counter steering assistance, from what I understand it is basically another kind of traction control and will steal your power from your car. I’ve been learning that you can do all the same things with good throttle control instead.

Now if I could only learn good throttle control. . .

No, the countersteering assistant does not access the accelerator pedal, so it is not comparable to TCS.
However, it tries to compensate for an unstable position of the vehicle with a difference between the steering input and the vehicle angle.

However, this assistant CAN lead to a very high loss of speed in a few very special situations.

If you e.g. If you drive an MR car and have to go around a very tight and very slow curve, the rear end often breaks out, which can be helpful if you are experienced. However, if the assistant intervenes, not only will the car not move around the curve... the steering will also be manipulated against its steering input, making it sometimes impossible to get around said curve.
You can see this situation very well in Suzuka or SPA when you are going much too slowly in the hairpin bend or the bus stop.

But the assistant can certainly bring speed... it tries to achieve an unstable driving condition by reducing or increasing the steering angle. Now, when the car is stabilized, its speed will be maintained better or even increased, depending on the position of the gas pedal. AND it can help reduce tire wear, which in turn benefits lap times... but that's a higher level racing tactic and I think it matters more in "higher" races.

 

[Bullwinkle]

But the assistant can certainly bring speed... it tries to achieve an unstable driving condition by reducing or increasing the steering angle. Now, when the car is stabilized, its speed will be maintained better or even increased, depending on the position of the gas pedal.

Can you explain this a little more? How is it (potentially) increasing speed?

 

[xMAXIx79]

Can you explain this a little more? How is it (potentially) increasing speed?

If you e.g. If you have a car with too much power on the rear wheels, or your steering angle for curve x at speed y is too high, you would lose speed because your car would start to slip over the front and/or rear axle.. i.e. to drift. , and drifting is rarely faster than driving a clean line stably, ergo you lose speed. If the assistant now eliminates this "drift", his tires usually have more traction and more energy goes into the forward movement.

 

[Bullwinkle]

If you e.g. If you have a car with too much power on the rear wheels, or your steering angle for curve x at speed y is too high, you would lose speed because your car would start to slip over the front and/or rear axle.. i.e. to drift. , and drifting is rarely faster than driving a clean line stably, ergo you lose speed. If the assistant now eliminates this "drift", his tires usually have more traction and more energy goes into the forward movement.

Ah! Thanks again for all your great insights! I’m learning so much every single day!

 

[EceliN]

im allways faster without tcs, tcs will slow you down

 

[KaiB]

If you e.g. If you have a car with too much power on the rear wheels, or your steering angle for curve x at speed y is too high, you would lose speed because your car would start to slip over the front and/or rear axle.. i.e. to drift. , and drifting is rarely faster than driving a clean line stably, ergo you lose speed. If the assistant now eliminates this "drift", his tires usually have more traction and more energy goes into the forward movement.

In a simple way what it does is to make the car always stable, even in high speed corners when weight transfer its apllied that countersteer will control the car like its on rails, its good for players that are not smooth on the inputs, but it breakes the imersion and make the driving feel very arcady.

Since i remember the first thing i do in any GT game its to go to options and turn off all assists, only abs on.
It takes a lot o pratice, tail breaking, throotle control, smooth inputs take some time to master, assists makes all easier from the start but i think its better to pratice since day 1 so all the time invested count has pratice to be faster.., and offcourse more realistic experience.

For people on ds4/dualsense i recommend pratice using motion sensor instead of the sticks. After a lot of pratice the experience its a lot more natural and rewarding, it needs people to adjust siting position and need to have some kind of support for your arms, i used my legs on the couch, but in a desk chair probably works since they have arms rest.

Now i use a wheel but in the end the good about having assist off its cause the experience its more realistic, with them off after a lot of pratice people will learn to find the limit of the grip, and offcourse to be faster takes time, pratice to master all the above and for that assists need to be off, all the faster drivers use no assists, in some situations TC helps, in grid starts or tense first lap/corners in a tricky combo until all settles down, but that also its very specific.

 

[Live25]

Nobody turns off ABS.

I don’t use ABS and haven’t for quite awhile. The standard PS5 controller is all I use.

 

[Raceface1959]

Well, today was the day. I did all of the Watkins race events with no TCS, including the first two in a Viper (which I thought would blow donuts as soon as I exited the first corner), then the final event in a Gr2. I only lost it twice. Once in a pit manouver against me, and the other one self imposed on a corner into a sudden rise. Everything feels much smoother without TCS and you can actually sense when the back end is going to step out and prevent it from happening. Maybe the added benefits of a modern wheel and pedals?

 

[VolusiaF30]

There are times when TC1 will pretty much always be faster than having it off completely. High powered RWD on street tyres and in the rain for example

 

[Pizzicato1985]

As promised, I’m posting two videos of my driving. It’s the 962 C on Sardinia, which is my fastest car in the track I’m most familiar with.

The first video is unedited, so it’s longer than the actual race. Regardless, I started off ok, but things came apart on lap 8. You can see my typical errors from that point on.


In this second video, same car and race more cleanly edited. This is only a day later and is so far my best run yet. A few gaffes, but overall I’m pretty happy with the progress. Significantly, I’m still 20 seconds slower than with TC1, so I’m still trying to smooth out my rough edges.


Comments are welcome, but please understand that I’m new so try to be constructive. I already know I stink and don’t need to be reminded! 😳

The only thing I can really see is possible gear selection (though I don't know how you've got your transmission setup) when cornering. Aside from the F1 Long Tail I never use 1st gear at Sardegna aside from when I slightly miss a brake point and need to slow down even more.

Maybe it's just the way I setup my transmissions but I've found it's generally slower to run through first and shift into second than it is to just launch in 2nd. Not universal, but I generally find this true. Plus the rear tires won't step-out as easily on corner-exit in 2nd.

Also, I don't know how much downforce you're running but one can generally carry more speed through those two fast left-handers (the one at like ~45sec and the one at like ~1:10sec) but again, how the gearing is setup plays a big roll in corner speed as well. I just ran around there in the 962c and at these corners 2nd gear and 3rd gear, respectively, is what felt right. Only reason I mention it is I noticed you often take the first of these corners (the one at like 45sec... really wish I knew the names of corners at this track, lol) in first gear when the 962c can easily take it in 2nd, even with the stock gearing. Though if you're running long/wide gearing it may not be true for your setup.

Other than that I've no suggestions at all other than to just keep practicing throttle control. I was expecting you to be struggling around the track based on your description but you aren't slow by any means and certainly don't "stink"! There's time out there to be picked-up and you've got the skill to find it. Though if you're running mid-25min at Sardegna in the 962c I don't know how much time is actually left to find in that car. Maybe it's just me/my tune but the 962 is the slowest of all the Group 3 cars for me and a mid-25min time in that car seems pretty good to me. 787b can run it in 25min flat and quicker, so if you've got that car you should see how well you do in it.