Dunlop MSA British Touring Car Championship 2012

[prisonermonkeys]

As someone said on another forum - if Plato had pulled it off it would have been hailed as any amazing move.

Almost certainly. However, he didn't pull it off, and instead pushed another driver off the circuit. That's what he's being judged on - not how audacious the move was, but how it ended for someone else.

 

[hornet_burnout]

Just managed to watch all 3 races. Sorry for long post.

Just read the highlighted bits for the short version.

I don't care how much one may dislike the guy, or that move on race one. The MG team and especially Plato have done a tremendous job. Congratulations indeed. 👍

Now, as for the said "incident" if this was open wheels... but it isn't. It's touring car racing. Contact is a part of touring car racing. Cars are so close in performance, that overtaking usually comes from creating a small space with or without contact. And it's not how it goes these days, it's been like that for as long as I can remember. Here's a good compilation, through the years, where you can see Plato in action dishing it and receiving it, and making for some great racing:




Having said that, Plato in that race 1 went for a gap he's not even sure it's there, with a car that had done 6 laps of testing, and he would've made it stick if Newsham had seen him (since I don't think he closes the door deliberately, he was busing looking elsewhere).

And that's all he's guilty of. In terms of deliberately punting people I've seen far worse on all three races, never mind in the past, by him and other drivers.

The only reason he's been given a penalty was for his reputation, his past and all the sanitizing freaks trying to make things fair and clean, and feeling bad for "poor Newsham". What's next? Gonna try and straighten NASCAR up? Thank the Americans you can't.

He has been on the receiving end of blatant contact, deliberate or driver error as well:

In 2009 he saved it against an "error":


In 2011 he did not:


Now I don't recall any penalties for the other driver in both these incidents and I really don't care because what remains is what counts. Awesome racing (but feel free to enlighten me and the discussion if you know of any penalty in these incidents).

That's what Jason Plato has given us. Many of the best moments of racing, both on the last races, and for over 10 years...


And I'm not even particularly a fan of his. Actually #1 for me is Yvan Muller and back around 2000, I used to hate Plato because of that hard time he gave him for years.

2001 example:


If all you see is "oh poor Eaves, bad Plato punted him", watch closer:
0.20 Thomson is taken out by Soper
1.30 Muller punts Plato and gains position
1.45 Plato punts back, they go side by side and at 1.55 Plato concedes room
for Muller to return to the track and loses the position
2.05 they both get punted by "innocent" Eaves
2.10 Eaves rams Muller into the grass
2.20 Plato punts Eaves, this time he goes off

Not saying he's a good sport or a gentleman, but he is not a villain, and certainly not in the last incident. It's just touring car racing. It's awesome. Hope they don't ruin it...

 

[Famine]

Contact is a part of touring car racing. Cars are so close in performance, that overtaking usually comes from creating a small space with or without contact. And it's not how it goes these days, it's been like that for as long as I can remember.

Since you're older than me, I find that as surprising as I find it hilarious.

Contact has always been part of low performance touring car racing (BTCCs are only 300hp and about 280hp/ton) but only because the cars are in close proximity to one another. A bit of bump drafting, some side-by-side cornering - the higher the performance, the narrower the racing line becomes - all because of proximity.

Bump-to-pass though hasn't. That little tap as the guy ahead is braking, so he can't slow down as much and runs wide - or worse, doing it from the side, getting your front bumper next to his rear - is "new". And who brought it to the series?

Yvan Muller

There you go.

That's not to say you can't find examples of it before Muller - Cleland, Harvey, Soper and Hoy were all involved in "incidents" years before Muller ever joined - but it was the exception rather than the norm.

There's a classic incident from the 1992 BTCC finale where, after being passed by Harvey and Soper, a slightly upset John Cleland decides he's getting past them no matter what. After some heavy leaning and rubbing, he manages it too but Soper's off line and on grass and - whether through inability to brake or just sheer annoyance - takes Cleland clean out. You might notice that every car but one - Soper's, amusingly - is pristine even in the final race. Nothing's taped up, nothing's missing bits. Now fast forward to race 3 in round 1 of the 2012 BTCC...

The reason that incident was classic was because it was so rare. Now it's normal, because Muller exploited a gap in the regulations and stewarding, so successfully. Plato is, in many respects, Muller's protege and carries the same mantle. So long as he's racing, he's teaching it to other drivers too because it's the only way to get ahead - if you don't do it, you don't win. If clean passes were required, Plato wouldn't have won a race in BTCC history, never mind a championship...

I almost wish Matt Neal had followed through on his threat last year and taught Plato the lesson that if you behave in such an ungentlemanly way on the track there will be consequences off the track. But then Neal is no better on the track either. Nor are many others.


The whole of BTCC now carries the stench that accompanies your average GT5 lobby. Loads of drivers who hold themselves and their conduct in high regard, happy to ignore the rules they apply to other people if it helps them get a position until it all descends into a tit-for-tat argument about whose fault any given crash was. The British ones have probably learned this behaviour from Plato and Muller.

It's bad enough in GT5, but when it's teams of hundreds of people working for thousands of hours for hundreds of thousands of pounds travelling hundreds of miles to take part in a weekend of having a laugh, to have it ruined inside an hour by some mong tap-to-passing, it's just about indefensible. One of the keys to any race series is that you're putting your life (no hyperbole - racing is deadly) in the hands of every other driver. If you can't trust them... why?

 

[homeforsummer]

Having said that, Plato in that race 1 went for a gap he's not even sure it's there, with a car that had done 6 laps of testing, and he would've made it stick if Newsham had seen him (since I don't think he closes the door deliberately, he was busing looking elsewhere).

And that's all he's guilty of. In terms of deliberately punting people I've seen far worse on all three races, never mind in the past, by him and other drivers.

I don't think there was any part of that move that would have ever stuck, unless Plato had got a vastly better run on the straight.

I'm not blaming Plato for having a go, but the concept that he was ever going to make that pass without taking a driver off is laughable. That he someone believes he was in the right for trying to make it even more so.

For Newsham to have made the corner with another car on his outside, he had to take the line he did. Plato would know this as an experienced racer, but he has no scruples about going for it anyway and hoping he comes out best.

sanitizing freaks

There's nothing of the sort going on here. We like to see racing. We like to see contact - it's exciting. We don't like to see some prat utterly unable to pass without the move being detrimental to another driver.

Plato is that prat.

I'd be interested to know just how long you've been watching touring cars. I've been following avidly since 1993-ish, and as Famine describes, bumping with the specific intention of getting past is a relatively new phenomenon, and it's one of the reasons I've always disliked Yvan Muller. He's an incredible driver, but one of the main culprits for why the series features such dirty moves so often these days.

I'd actually say it's what makes me respect drivers like Collard a lot more. He's more representative of the old-school - not afraid to trade paint, but certainly not one to deliberately bump someone out of the way to pass them.

Oh, and Boardman vs. Plato last year at Knockhill - entirely Boardman's fault, I'm not about to deny that.

In fact, Boardman's racing that weekend was some of the worst I've ever seen - I'd go as far as saying he should have been excluded from the race results for his contact with Plato, particularly given his safety-car stunt that resulted in several other accidents when he backed everyone up so drastically.

 

[Tired Tyres]

I've been watching Touring Cars since the last stages of Group A and punt to pass is very definitely a post Manufacturer era issue, introduced in the main, by Yvan "Dirty" Muller and copied by just about everyone since.

That's not to say it didn't happen before then but it was the exception rather than the rule.

I don't like it and I don't find it entertaining.

I prefer proper racing with overtaking like this.

 

[homeforsummer]

I prefer proper racing with overtaking like this.

That's brilliant. Wouldn't work every time in the BTCC as rarely will someone leave the door open on the inside like that, but I'd definitely like to see more like that in the BTCC.

 

[hornet_burnout]

I don't see the hilarious bit. I was lucky if back in 99 and 2000 I could catch the highlights of these races on the Tv. There was no Internet as we know it and I couldn't find all the racing I wanted as I do now. So it has been like that for the better part of 12 years, and for as long as I can remember.

This is what the racing IS like now and for over a decade. Wanting to clean it up is sanitizing. And you can't excuse some drivers and blame and penalize others to do that. You have to change or at least enforce the rules. Always.

I have no problem with the way it's done. I wouldn't race in it but I enjoy every race. Point being Plato is not the bad thing about touring car people made him from this incident. And Muller didn't invent the dirty moves, he simply was alowed to use them.

These contacts make for some cheap thrills and are nice to watch. That sells as does in NASCAR and I hope and think it's not about to change.

I like it. Shoot me

 

[Famine]

I don't see the hilarious bit. I was lucky if back in 99 and 2000 I could catch the highlights of these races on the Tv. There was no Internet as we know it and I couldn't find all the racing I wanted as I do now. So it has been like that for the better part of 12 years, and for as long as I can remember.

Fair enough. Those of us who remember how it was in the 80s remember how it was in the 80s.

This is what the racing IS like now and for over a decade. Wanting to clean it up is sanitizing.

How so? BTCC/TOCA was always close, tight, exciting and occasionally paint-trading. Three and four abreast into corners.

Now it's one racing line and you can't get two wide because Plato will take you out. Wanting to un-dirty it isn't sanitising - it's bringing the excitement back.

And you can't excuse some drivers and blame and penalize others to do that. You have to change or at least enforce the rules. Always.

Correct.

And Muller didn't invent the dirty moves, he simply was alowed to use them.

Correct - it's a shortcoming in the regulations (you can't penalise every contact in low level touring cars) and the stewarding that meant he got away with it a lot. Muller was the first to start exploiting them. He and Plato have been ending other drivers' races early, unpunished, for 15 years as a result.

These contacts make for some cheap thrills and are nice to watch.

Find some BTCC/TOCA from the 1980s on Youtube. It's better to watch.

 

[Liquid]

Find some BTCC/TOCA from the 1980s on Youtube. It's better to watch.

Yes. Good, hearty Group A racing. More power than grip and far less aero.



Rookie Plato vs. Bit-of-experience Thompson. 1:03

1:50 - Plato vs. Leslie. Plato OBC 4:40. I call it a racing incident.



But the above instances were definitely the exception rather than the norm. And Rickard Rydell forgetting about Toyota, Alfa Romeo, Audi and even the 850 saloon winning in their debut seasons...

Also, love old Graham Hill Bend.

 

[hornet_burnout]

Famine, I don't think it's fair that only Plato, and Muller since you brought it up are the big villains.

Everyone is doing it... it's become a part of it.

It could/would be cleaner without Muller and Plato? That I agree.

 

[Famine]

Famine, I don't think it's fair that only Plato, and Muller since you brought it up are the big villains.

Everyone is doing it... it's become a part of it.

The reason that incident was classic was because it was so rare. Now it's normal, because Muller exploited a gap in the regulations and stewarding, so successfully. Plato is, in many respects, Muller's protege and carries the same mantle. So long as he's racing, he's teaching it to other drivers too because it's the only way to get ahead - if you don't do it, you don't win. If clean passes were required, Plato wouldn't have won a race in BTCC history, never mind a championship...

I almost wish Matt Neal had followed through on his threat last year and taught Plato the lesson that if you behave in such an ungentlemanly way on the track there will be consequences off the track. But then Neal is no better on the track either. Nor are many others.

It could/would be cleaner without Muller and Plato? That I agree.

Pandora's Box. You can't close it again.

 

[homeforsummer]

Everyone is doing it... it's become a part of it.

False. Not everyone is doing it. Many are though, and that's a shame as several others are clearly capable of not taking people out of the race when they pass someone. Who won this season's first race? Collard. I don't think I've ever seen Collard deliberately take someone off the circuit, but he's still been involved in a lot of battles over the past few years.

And much as I'm not really into WTCC any more, Andy Priaulx managed to win several championships without a single dirty move. Tarquini is another successful and largely clean touring car driver. And Frank Biela. And Alain Menu. And several others who've had success in various touring car series over the last few decades.

Being a dirty racer isn't directly correlated with success, it just happens to be increasingly common in the BTCC.

By and large, the BTCC is run brilliantly by Alan Gow, and it's undoubtedly the most exciting tin-top series in terms of on-track action, if not the cars themselves.

Only... it's been that way for well over two decades, so the excitement clearly isn't a direct result of the increase in contact. People traded paint before, and people got knocked off the road - but there was a hell of a lot of great driving and clean passing before.

You admit yourself you've only been watching since the late 90s - take it from people who've watched it for a lot longer that it's perfectly possible to have excellent racing and overtaking without every move involving some sort of contact. And again, I'm inclined to blame Muller, and subsequently Plato and Neal for the underhand tactics now used by several drivers on the grid.

Edit: For lulz, guess who's literally just started following me on Twitter? Yvan Muller...

 

[Liquid]

Edit: For lulz, guess who's literally just started following me on Twitter? Yvan Muller...

Ask him why John Bintcliffe was so slow in 1998. Or how it feels to be the man who sent John Cleland to the old people's home.

Edit: Plato vs. Boardman is almost a carbon copy of Plato vs. Aiello

5:35


And regarding hornet_burnout's point about penalties, the end of this video explains that Laurent Aiello was disqualified from the race, after pushing the Laguna up on three wheels into Duffers.

 

[DK]

I'm being frightened as I'm reminded of my less savoury races while racing in online tournaments.

 

[homeforsummer]

Edit: Plato vs. Boardman is almost a carbon copy of Plato vs. Aiello

I'd forgotten about that incident. Classic example of "can't pass cleanly, shove him out the way instead".

 

[Liquid]

I'd forgotten about that incident. Classic example of "can't pass cleanly, shove him out the way instead".

Precisely. Plato was doing a grand job defending 2nd place in that race, and as John Watson says, "Aiello spits the dummy out, "I've had enough, get out of my way Plato!" That is not something that is approved by the British touring car rules". You get to see both OBCs. Dirty racing.

And Aiello was excluded from the results of the race. Shoe was most definitely on the other foot with Plato and Newsham, but the point is that nudging people off is not good racing.

 

[Chqr]

I honestly think all motorsport disciplines should perhaps take on the Nascar ways of doing things. Have at it, boys and girls.

I've you're going to penalise an incident which is a carbon copy of incidents that have occurred in previous years and decades out of the blue, where's the consistency in that?
TOCA now has to be consistent in their penalties this year and I can almost guarantee it will be more difficult to be consistent with dishing out penalties than giving out no penalties. For sure, there is a line where you have to give out a penalty for say, wrecking another car under the Safety Car but penalising every driver for doing what Plato did is outrageous and not justifiable in my opinion.

Of course, my opinion is by no means the correct one, just a Nascar fan's opinion. Haha.

 

[Famine]

Edit: For lulz, guess who's literally just started following me on Twitter? Yvan Muller...

That's bad news. He might suddenly take you out for being on his line.

 

[Liquid]

I honestly think all motorsport disciplines should perhaps take on the Nascar ways of doing things. Have at it, boys and girls.

Do you watch open wheeled racing?

There's a classic incident from the 1992 BTCC finale where, after being passed by Harvey and Soper, a slightly upset John Cleland decides he's getting past them no matter what. After some heavy leaning and rubbing, he manages it too but Soper's off line and on grass and - whether through inability to brake or just sheer annoyance - takes Cleland clean out. You might notice that every car but one - Soper's, amusingly - is pristine even in the final race.

Just want to clarify this and say that when you see the OBCs, it's quite clear that Soper knew what he was doing. Cleland was in the wrong for crashing up the inside line of Soper, going onto two wheels and leaning in on him pushing him onto the grass on the exit of Brooklands, but you can clearly see from Hoy and Soper's cameras that Steve knew what he was doing. Often overlooked is Soper's fantastic drive from last after being caught up in an incident with Leslie and Gravett on the first lap.

9:40


It was academic anyway. It was the penultimate lap and Harvey was already in front and would have won regardless. Harvey was the naughty boy for pushing Will Hoy way off the track at Copse when Hoy was leading the trio and by extension, the championship.

That last race was Rouse's 60th win and an overall fantastic race. The fight for 1st was frantic but clean, and the fight for the title has gone down in touring car history because, as you say Famine, the heavy contact was not the norm back then.

 

[Ardius]

I guess I'm a little bit in the middle with this argument. On the one side, I agree with those calling for cleaner racing and damning the unnecessary attacks.
But on the other, I can kind of accept these incidents happening just because the series is going so strong right now and we still get some great racing.
I also fear that if the series did get strict and clamped down on contact that there would be too many incidents where the stewards inevitably get it wrong (just see F1) and that drivers would become a little too careful for fear of penalty.

I feel that as long as completely ridiculous and blatant shunts and spins are penalised and dealt with, I can accept the lesser dirty tactics such as the small bumps in braking zones to get past because at least the racing can be close without fear of penalty.

Basically I feel its a case of either allowing both close clean racing and dirty racing or penalising dirty racing with the side-effect of taking away some of the action.
I can't see how penalising dirty driving and getting rid of it can happen without sometimes getting it wrong and also getting quite picky. I mean, just look at how silly the F1 rules have got lately trying to define some arbitrary defensive line rules that are almost impossible to enforce.

I kind of like that the BTCC has just let the drivers get on with overtaking themselves without having to define driver A must do this and driver B must do that for it considered a clean overtake.

I was already getting fed up enough with the stupid penalties and warnings for going off the track at Graham Hill bend at Brands - the nature of that corner always spits cars over the edge particularly as tyres wear or if they get involved in a battle. Either fix the track layout (though I like the awkward style it has and its great build up for overtaking later on) or just accept the cars are going to run wide quite often. This to me is being far too picky in racing - fine for international events but I kind of prefer at least some motorsport to be a little more relaxed rather than everything being strict.

 

[homeforsummer]

Just want to clarify this and say that when you see the OBCs, it's quite clear that Soper knew what he was doing. Cleland was in the wrong for crashing up the inside line of Soper, going onto two wheels and leaning in on him pushing him onto the grass on the exit of Brooklands, but you can clearly see from Hoy and Soper's cameras that Steve knew what he was doing. Often overlooked is Soper's fantastic drive from last after being caught up in an incident with Leslie and Gravett on the first lap.

Heh, yeah, Soper's move was pretty decisive there. You can see he deliberately turned into the corner much earlier to hit Cleland - probably didn't even bother braking.

The thing which gets me about the Plato/Newsham incident wasn't the bump itself, which really was just a case of overconfidence on Plato's part, but Plato's attitude afterwards.

I actually think he might have even avoided a penalty if he didn't act so self-righteous in interviews afterwards, like it was somehow a rookie error by Newsham that caused the crash. As it was, his bad attitude invited a penalty.

I feel that as long as completely ridiculous and blatant shunts and spins are penalised and dealt with, I can accept the lesser dirty tactics such as the small bumps in braking zones to get past because at least the racing can be close without fear of penalty.

The bumps in the braking zone irritate me more than incidents like the Plato/Newsham one. With Plato/Newsham he was at least going for a gap, albeit a small one, and there was a small chance he'd have pulled it off.

A bump in the braking zone is like "right, I'm bored with you now, get out my way". There's no skill in it at all, and no nail-biting "will he? won't he?" aspect of whether a pass might happen.

I was already getting fed up enough with the stupid penalties and warnings for going off the track at Graham Hill bend at Brands - the nature of that corner always spits cars over the edge particularly as tyres wear or if they get involved in a battle. Either fix the track layout (though I like the awkward style it has and its great build up for overtaking later on) or just accept the cars are going to run wide quite often. This to me is being far too picky in racing - fine for international events but I kind of prefer at least some motorsport to be a little more relaxed rather than everything being strict.

Agreed. They were handing out black/white flags left, right and centre at Brands. They may as well just scrap the "running wide" penalty. It's self-policing anyway, anyone running too wide will be off on the grass/gravel, as the weekend proved.

 

[Famine]

I feel that as long as completely ridiculous and blatant shunts and spins are penalised and dealt with, I can accept the lesser dirty tactics such as the small bumps in braking zones to get past because at least the racing can be close without fear of penalty.

[...]

I mean, just look at how silly the F1 rules have got lately trying to define some arbitrary defensive line rules that are almost impossible to enforce.

F1 goes so far because it has to. Cars that are so fragile that they can be DNFed by the lightest of touches and run in such a fine balance with aero devices yet still reach 220mph need wider berths or you have dead people. Very dead people.

In touring cars it's easy. If there's contact, Matt Neal or Jason Plato get a drive through. Or, more sensibly, have stewards watching the video (like F1) and reviewing any contact where a driver is disadvantaged by another - rather than watching Babestation at the time and the catching the race later on ITV Player and fining Plato. Panel of three decides who is at fault for the contact and they get a race warning. Three and they get black flagged. This includes the terribly unprofessional tap-to-pass.


Note also the BTCC sticks to the letter of the FIA's track limits law, but F1 habitually permits drivers to leave the confines of the track on the outside as it's not considered shortening the circuit. F1 fans might call the warnings given to BTCC drivers this weekend for going wide at Graham Hill "silly"... Of course it's more necessary in F1 because going wide on a touring car circuit means gravel and pain, but going wide in F1 means a giant expanse of tarmac. Hell, Vettel even passed Button in Australia 2010 twenty yards off the track - not to mention everyone at La Source every year (and Raikkonen at Pouhon in 2008).

 

[Liquid]

Of course it's more necessary in F1 because going wide on a touring car circuit means gravel and pain, but going wide in F1 means a giant expanse of tarmac. Hell, Vettel even passed Button in Australia 2010 twenty yards off the track - not to mention everyone at La Source every year (and Raikkonen at Pouhon in 2008).

This is very, very annoying. I don't like car park run-off areas. It doesn't punish running wide, unlike a gravel trap.

 

[Ardius]

The bumps in the braking zone irritate me more than incidents like the Plato/Newsham one. With Plato/Newsham he was at least going for a gap, albeit a small one, and there was a small chance he'd have pulled it off.

A bump in the braking zone is like "right, I'm bored with you now, get out my way". There's no skill in it at all, and no nail-biting "will he? won't he?" aspect of whether a pass might happen.

Yeah but how do you police such contact and seperate deliberate contact from accidental missing the braking zones? What about when there is a train of cars and they end up hitting each other domino style?
I think it just opens a can of worms as far as penalties go such that we end up with the same kinds of inconsistent penalties we get in F1.

I don't really agree famine either that F1 needs to have harsher penalties because contact does more damage - this in fact is a self-policing issue. Drivers try to avoid contact because they can risk retirement! In this sense it requires less penalties because its rare that any driver in F1 even touches the other cars on purpose.
Take Hamilton's penalty for clipping Massa at Singapore for example - it was poorly executed racing from Lewis but was it really necessary for a penalty? Do we really believe Lewis would have driven even closer limits without the threat of penalties or harsher stewarding. I think it makes it clear that harsher stewarding and penalties can't prevent any and all contact and shows that in fact it can work against close and clean racing because its penalising even accidental contact!

I would hate to see BTCC have F1's view on penalties. I'd be fine with penalising Plato and Neal a good deal more but really I can't see much of a middle ground between penalising almost everything and penalising almost nothing.

The fact that F1 doesn't penalise Graham Hill bend type stuff further highlights the bizarre levels of consistencey from the stewards both in F1 and BTCC. Again, can we really trust any stewarding of any kind to actually be strict but fair? It seems they are incapable of reading racing situations and seperating racing incidents from genuine dirty or bad driving. As I say, I'd rather they'd be relaxed and we suffer a little bit of bad driving if it means we can at least get on with racing rather than constantly handing out penalties to the wrong people for the wrong thing.

 

[Famine]

I don't really agree famine either that F1 needs to have harsher penalties because contact does more damage - this in fact is a self-policing issue. Drivers try to avoid contact because they can risk retirement! In this sense it requires less penalties because its rare that any driver in F1 even touches the other cars on purpose.
Take Hamilton's penalty for clipping Massa at Singapore for example - it was poorly executed racing from Lewis but was it really necessary for a penalty? Do we really believe Lewis would have driven even closer limits without the threat of penalties or harsher stewarding. I think it makes it clear that harsher stewarding and penalties can't prevent any and all contact and shows that in fact it can work against close and clean racing because its penalising even accidental contact!

Penalties serve two purposes. Only one is prevention.

I would hate to see BTCC have F1's view on penalties. I'd be fine with penalising Plato and Neal a good deal more but really I can't see much of a middle ground between penalising almost everything and penalising almost nothing.

Then... what I said.

 

[Ardius]

I don't see how you've suggested a middle-ground, you've suggested an F1 style panel of stewards. Clearly that hasn't really worked so well for F1 considering we still get quite a few dubious penalties. And, as I say, I think that there is also some worth to being a little more relaxed letting the racing sort itself out rather than intervening all the time.

I also don't see what the penalty for Lewis at Singapore really does - it neither prevents similar incidents or sends much of a message to the driver. He made a mistake of judgement - something that regularly happens in racing. Lewis of course would try to avoid this kind of incident anyway, a penalty is completely un-necessary, even with respect to his repeated contact earlier in the season.
Its almost as if the stewards just hear "Lewis" and "contact" and think "penalty" rather than actually thinking about what actually happened and what they are really saying giving a penalty out.

 

[homeforsummer]

Yeah but how do you police such contact and seperate deliberate contact from accidental missing the braking zones? What about when there is a train of cars and they end up hitting each other domino style?

The train of cars is easy. It's a train of cars, cars are tightly packed at the start of the race and can hit each other. You do what you can to avoid hitting or being hit, but sometimes it's inevitable. That's racing.

Bumping someone out of the way to pass is different. Generally, if you're that close, then the person in front is defending. They'll probably take the inside line - you'll note this was the case, and always has been, at Druids, even before Jackson dumped the contents of his sump all over the roads forcing the inside line for all drivers.

This being the case - with a driver defending on the inside line - it's pretty clear that any contact in the braking zone is deliberate. The attacking driver has the whole rest of the circuit to use, but he chooses to sit directly behind the defending driver.

If his name isn't Plato or Neal, the attacking driver might be more inclined to take a wider line in, to gain speed on the exit, giving them a better run through Graham Hill and Surtees for a pass on the inside of McLaren/Clearways/Clark - a popular move. Quite often a move that involves exchanging paint, but at least it's generally a proper dive up the inside, rather than bumping someone out the way.

Anyway, my point is that if you're sitting directly behind a defending driver and give them a nudge out the way, that's very obviously deliberate, rather than an accident.

I'm not saying it's easy to police, but it's pretty clear when it's a dirty move.

 

[Liquid]

And, as I say, I think that there is also some worth to being a little more relaxed letting the racing sort itself out rather than intervening all the time.

That's what we've had for a good number of years. Except now the standards are falling. Some discipline is required.

 

[hornet_burnout]

Pandora's Box. You can't close it again.

Agree on that. And I take your word that Muller and then Plato opened it. No problem there.

But... the point I was making, Plato (and others) aren't usually penalized nowadays. Especially if there are no major consequences (wrecks) from their actions. He was penalized this time because "he's a punter" and "poor Newsham out of the race".

The move itself, "go for it and let's see what happens" was bold and reckless but not a deliberate punting. It was far less deliberate than the usual dirt nudging out of the way or push from behind under braking to overtake we see all race long, every time, and that many seem to find "acceptable".

Wrong reasons... wrong penalty IMO. But most people here agree just because of Plato and Muller hate, and think they should always "get it".

As I said, I'm not a Plano fan. But I think it's only fair to say what I did.

1 - he made an outstanding job with that team, and in getting these results
2 - this time he got a stupid penalty on that incident

 

[Liquid]

1 - he made an outstanding job with that team, and in getting these results
2 - this time he got a stupid penalty on that incident

Justified penalty in my opinion. Clearly an avoidable incident.

In any case, the MG was quick. Very quick. But with RML behind you, they'd get Massa to the front. Maybe..

Plato had the speed and he could have waited for a clearer opportunity to pass but he didn't and was duly punished. Hopefully he'll learn and not make the same mistake again.

Hopefully. Looking forward to the next meeting. Brands was a cracker, great way to kick start 2012!