Dunlop MSA British Touring Car Championship 2012

[cally-dave]

Well race 3 was a bit of a eyefull! Andy Jordan did a brilliant bit of defending to keep Plato at bay for as long as he could, but my god that MG was on fire!

I couldn't help but laugh and face palm at the marshalls, trying to tow a beached car by its bumper was just brilliance! Then, after that failed, they didnt secure the strap to the back end and that gave up too pmsl!

Very lucky the lads werent seriously injured in that pile up too! Was definately a lively start to the season.

As for Toby Moody, he is like a cross between Quentin Wilson and Tim Harvey, neither of which I particularly like....... Fair play to Ben Edwards though, off doing F1.

 

[Furinkazen]

Toby's not bad, at least they don't have someone totally wooden in the box.

 

[tomhart9]

I was at the circuit today, wicked day. Every race (bar the final juniors race) was brilliant! All exciting stuff, hopefully my PS3 recorded it so i can watch it back!
Jason Plato, great driver, bit of a ****...
I took lots of photos and videos, I'll see if any of them are any good and whack them on here if anyone is interested...

EDIT: Oh and the safety car for Ginettas, G60? Just gorgeous!

 

[prisonermonkeys]

Plato isn't happy with his penalty for the Newsham incident:

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/98539

Honestly, I don't know what he's complaining about myself. Looking at the replays, there was no way he was going to make that pass stick. Newsham had already covered him off.

 

[Ardius]

Ha, one thing Plato does best is make all of the headlines from winning despite the odds to taking other drivers out of the race and then moaning about penalties or enigne power...all in the same day.

As I've said many times before - great driver but a very dirty driver also. Matt Neal is no better of course but he was more well behaved today. Seems the Civic doesn't seem as good overall as the MG6 - who'd have thought it?

Absolute carnage though overall - I expect no less but today was particularly dramatic!

For the record I think Plato's penalty is extremely excessive considering so many of those kinds of overtakes happen all the time at that corner. He was very optimistic trying to dive in from so far back, especially when Newsham was busy looking at Neal but there was a diminishing gap and he made a mistake trying to brake so late.
Perhaps the penalty is more a reflection of how Plato's attitude stinks rather than the mistake itself - that Plato refuses to admit its his fault and he made a mistake.

 

[tomhart9]

I think the penalty is completely justified, Plato seems to be a bit too big for his boots...

 

[Furinkazen]

100% Newsham moved across to take his line and Plato was just going for a disappearing gap.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

Perhaps the penalty is more a reflection of how Plato's attitude stinks rather than the mistake itself - that Plato refuses to admit its his fault and he made a mistake.

I've seen it before in other forms of motorsport - the stewards give harsher penalties because the person receiving the penalty has been in trouble so often that they're clearly not learning from it. Lewis Hamilton is the prime example of this. People wonder why the stewards are so quick to give him a drive-through (or whatever), but choose to ignore the way he is involved in so many on-track incidents. I can understand once being an accident and twice being a coincidence, but three times is a pattern. It looks like the BTCC stewards might be addressing Jason Plato with the same logic.

 

[Ardius]

The problem is that this sets an interesting precedent - the BTCC before today rarely ever penalised anyone for anything except very extreme punts and shunts (along with the odd picky thing like running wide or short-cutting the track).
It seems odd for the stewards to punish a mistake by Plato rather than a blatant punt such as this:


^I would penalise him that harsh for that, but maybe not so much for what he did to Newsham today.

Otherwise if we are going to get harsher with penalties, then half the grid would have been penalised under the F1 level of strict no-contact. I'm not sure bone-headed overtaking moves should be penalised seeing as 90% of the BTCC drivers regularly attempt them!

 

[tomhart9]

^^^
I remember that, Neal did fantastically well to keep it out of the wall and the other cars.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

Well, there are two things that I would be asking. First of all, did Matt Neal retire as a result of that contact? If he didn't, then it's a different situation to the episode with Newsham. Plato's actions at Snetterton might have ruined Neal's race, but if Neal was able to continue racing, then he could have salvaged some points. Whether or not he did is beside the point; the fact that he could score points means that the penalty would likely be less severe (or in this case, non-existant).

The second question I would be asking is whether or not the stewards have changed their approach to penalties. This is an argument I've made before with Hamilton: when Hamilton suddenly started getting penalised a lot, people thought that the stewards had a vendetta against him. But the stricter penalties were applied up and down the grid. As the most aggressive driver and as the person involved in the most incident, Hamilton took the brunt of the stewards' new-found zeal for punishing contact. Other drivers took the full force or it when they were at fault, but most people concentrated on Hamilton. Everyone who criticised it assumed nothing had changed in the way the stewards went about things, which was not true. So, in the case of Plato, I have to wonder whether the BTCC race officials have tightened up the driving standards, and what was acceptable last year is no longer going to be tolerated. It's not hypocricy on their part - it's just a case of the stewards doing a better job to keep things clean.

 

[Tom]

I'm surprised that no-one has picked up on Matt Neal being the first driver to win in an NGTC Spec car.

 

[Liquid]

Plato has previously gotten away with things he should have been punished for.

3:40 He got away with this

Feeble excuse.

 

[Akmuq]

I prefer the Top Gear Rallycross treatment of incidents, penalties aren't needed in Touring Cars.

 

[Holdenhsvgtsr]

Thing is British Motorsport has to follow the rules in this book

This is where the btcc files that book.

 

[Ardius]

Well, there are two things that I would be asking. First of all, did Matt Neal retire as a result of that contact? If he didn't, then it's a different situation to the episode with Newsham. Plato's actions at Snetterton might have ruined Neal's race, but if Neal was able to continue racing, then he could have salvaged some points. Whether or not he did is beside the point; the fact that he could score points means that the penalty would likely be less severe (or in this case, non-existant).

The second question I would be asking is whether or not the stewards have changed their approach to penalties. This is an argument I've made before with Hamilton: when Hamilton suddenly started getting penalised a lot, people thought that the stewards had a vendetta against him. But the stricter penalties were applied up and down the grid. As the most aggressive driver and as the person involved in the most incident, Hamilton took the brunt of the stewards' new-found zeal for punishing contact. Other drivers took the full force or it when they were at fault, but most people concentrated on Hamilton. Everyone who criticised it assumed nothing had changed in the way the stewards went about things, which was not true. So, in the case of Plato, I have to wonder whether the BTCC race officials have tightened up the driving standards, and what was acceptable last year is no longer going to be tolerated. It's not hypocricy on their part - it's just a case of the stewards doing a better job to keep things clean.

Whether the other car retires is not part of any rule I know of, if stewards of any race series start implementing penalties only based on if the other driver retires or is heavily disadvantaged then the penalties start to become inconsistent and meaningless.
The penalties should be applied for a driver who has broken a rule - there is no rule for "taking action that causes another driver to retire" because obviously it can be an accident.

And its not hypocrisy from previous events...its hypocrisy in the very same day! If Plato's move on Newsham is penalty-worthy, what about Collard on Newsham? Jordan on Collard? Plato on Neal?
There was plenty of contact during the day which could have easily been penalised for "driver standards".

I just feel that if the BTCC starts going down the road of stricter rule-enforcement, its going to discourage not only the dirty or bad driving..but also some of the overtaking and excitement. Drivers become less inclined to take risks if it potentially means penalties - which means both less incidents and less overtaking.

Clearly you haven't watched much BTCC before otherwise you would realise this is nothing like F1 - F1 has always been strict with penalties and your example of Hamilton is only an example of their inconsistencey. But it isn't an example of a change in their approach to penalties. F1 penalties have always been harsh and inconsistent!
BTCC has almost never really penalised anyone for contact - so this is a much more dramatic turn around in stewarding (if indeed it continues for the rest of the season).

 

[prisonermonkeys]

And its not hypocrisy from previous events...its hypocrisy in the very same day! If Plato's move on Newsham is penalty-worthy, what about Collard on Newsham? Jordan on Collard? Plato on Neal?
There was plenty of contact during the day which could have easily been penalised for "driver standards".

I refer you back to our earlier discussion, where you said this:

Perhaps the penalty is more a reflection of how Plato's attitude stinks rather than the mistake itself - that Plato refuses to admit its his fault and he made a mistake.

And as I hypothesised, Plato may well be the subject of increased scrutiny simply because he has a reputation for playing rough and the stewards want to make it clear that this will not be tolerated. Perhaps the other drivers did not receive the same sentences as Plato because they do not have Plato's reputation.

Clearly you haven't watched much BTCC before otherwise you would realise this is nothing like F1 - F1 has always been strict with penalties and your example of Hamilton is only an example of their inconsistencey. But it isn't an example of a change in their approach to penalties. F1 penalties have always been harsh and inconsistent!
BTCC has almost never really penalised anyone for contact - so this is a much more dramatic turn around in stewarding (if indeed it continues for the rest of the season).

I admit, I can only refer back to what I know. I watch considerably more Formula 1 than I do the BTCC, but I do see similarities between Lewis Hamilton and Jason Plato.

 

[Ardius]

Indeed - its possible for the stewards to have penalised Plato on principle rather than by rule - but I still don't like it...as I implied in that earlier post. I rather hope not anyway though either way it seems an inconsistent view from the stewards.
However, it is still a hypocrisy from our point of view as we do not know what the stewards' reasoning was. Even if it was based on attitude - this isn't something covered in the rulebook.

The difference between Plato and Hamilton is that Hamilton isn't trying to hit the other drivers, he's just incapable of leaving space and keeping track of where other drivers are! Plato on the other hand regularly hits drivers on purpose - most of the time its the very popular bumping on corner entry to make the other driver run wide and create a gap to overtake.
Although maybe this is just a reflection of the different style of stewarding. Maybe if we swapped the drivers around they would also swap behaviour..but still be involved in all the collisions and drama.

I'm not convinced though - I think Jason Plato is an excellent driver not only in speed but also in ability to race alongside other cars. Plato tends to read racing situations very well and more often than not can get past battling cars with ease. He can race cleanly and very well. Its just he has his dirty side too. Hamilton on the other hand seems to mis-read many racing situations.

 

[homeforsummer]

^I would penalise him that harsh for that, but maybe not so much for what he did to Newsham today.

I can't help feeling that Plato would have escaped a penalty for the incident with Newsham if he'd just put his hands up and said sorry. Unfortunately for Plato, he kept making snide little comments about how Newsham will "learn how to give room" and stuff like that, and I expect the stewards took it as a sign that Plato was oblivious to the fact he was at fault.

When I saw the incident I was inclined to believe it was a racing incident - Plato was going for a gap which closed up, he should really have known it would close, but it sometimes happens.

However, after all his comments, it seems more like he saw a gap, was going for it regardless of what would happen, with no regard for the consequences.

I'm surprised that no-one has picked up on Matt Neal being the first driver to win in an NGTC Spec car.

It's not a particularly big deal really. The majority of cars this season are NGTC-spec cars and they're certainly not underdogs. Wrathall's podiums last year were more significant really.

Plato has previously gotten away with things he should have been punished for.

3:40 He got away with this

To be fair on Plato, I've always seen that incident as Leslie's dumb fault. Not only did he nudge Plato on the straight, but he was hardly far enough in front into the corner to just turn in without consequences. If there's a driver still there on the inside line then it's pretty daft to just turn in as if he's not there.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

However, it is still a hypocrisy from our point of view as we do not know what the stewards' reasoning was. Even if it was based on attitude - this isn't something covered in the rulebook.

How can we accuse them of hypocricy in their reasoning when we don't even know what their reasoning was to begin with?

 

[Ardius]

As someone said on another forum - if Plato had pulled it off it would have been hailed as any amazing move..just as Muller did all those years ago. Problem is that it requires the other cars to see it coming and move completely out of the way - not normally the best way to pull off a clean move.

How can we accuse them of hypocricy in their reasoning when we don't even know what their reasoning was to begin with?

Because we're speculating but going by the rulebook there is no rule for specific damage done to another competitor (as far as I know) - so if that is the reasoning then it isn't one they can give for the penalty. The stewards can't make up the rules as they go along. The penalty has to be justified by a rule that Plato broke.
Most likely it was the "driver standards" rule - in which case it is a hypocricy...or rather an inconsistencey really.

 

[Liquid]

To be fair on Plato, I've always seen that incident as Leslie's dumb fault. Not only did he nudge Plato on the straight, but he was hardly far enough in front into the corner to just turn in without consequences. If there's a driver still there on the inside line then it's pretty daft to just turn in as if he's not there.

Leslie was being very aggressive, true, but Plato delibrately turning in on him was quite unnecessary. It's not the first time Leslie has been involved in an incident and had to take at least some of the blame. The I put the blame on the Leslie/Bintcliffe crash at Silverstone in 1997 squarely at the feet of the Nissan #4.

But Plato got away with the incident I posted and no harm done, so it's all gravy.

 

[homeforsummer]

Leslie was being very aggressive, true, but Plato delibrately turning in on him was quite unnecessary. It's not the first time Leslie has been involved in an incident and had to take at least some of the blame. The I put the blame on the Leslie/Bintcliffe crash at Silverstone in 1997 squarely at the feet of the Nissan #4.

But Plato got away with the incident I posted and no harm done, so it's all gravy.

Yeah, Plato did turn into the side of Leslie, but again that's something I actually think he did to prevent Leslie knocking him into a spin. If someone turns across your nose and you're turning in the same direction as him, it's quite easy to have your own little spin onto the infield. By Plato resisting and turning the other direction, it helped ensure that he didn't come a cropper like Leslie did.

As you say though, Plato avoided a penalty that time.

 

[Liquid]

If someone turns across your nose and you're turning in the same direction as him, it's quite easy to have your own little spin onto the infield.

Also true. See 1:50.



But in that 1998 incident I think Plato was playing very, very hard ball.

I really like Plato. Always been one of my favourites, great racer. But he's one dirty swine when he wants to be. His fights with Thompson when they were both early in their BTCC Renault/Honda careers were excellent.

Back to 2012, and while I think the punishment is harsh given the amount of body contact permitted in touring cars, Plato was diving for a gap that wasn't there. In my opinion, the move was never really on. He clearly had the speed and could have waited for a better opportunity to pass.

 

[Ryk]

Respect

Plato and Neal force accidents.

Watch Tarquini and Winklehock making passes but not being wooden about it. How do they manage to swap places and keep both door mirrors on the car?

'A man's got to know his limitations.' to quote the great philosopher - Harry Callahan

Listening to modern 'after crunch' interviews the drivers seem to be, 'He needs to learn to give up a place'

Then the next race when they have a driver dive bomb up the inside, they are all - 'That pass was never on.' .

Plato and Neal both pull some pretty desperate moves - either hit and hope passes or Larry Grayson style late shut the door moves - usually on the exit of a corner to run a driver on the outside off the track.

I used to feel sorry for Neal as he tended to get the short end of the stick as an Independent driver, but it is fair game to bash and crash your way in a race now.

-- Like a mug I'll watch the next race though

 

[Liquid]

Watch Tarquini and Winklehock making passes but not being wooden about it. How do they manage to swap places and keep both door mirrors on the car?

'A man's got to know his limitations.' to quote the great philosopher - Harry Callahan

Let's be honest, Silverstone is much wider than Brands. They'd just botched the reprofiling of Copse corner that year, which led to that crash.

Menu has his own opinion on driving limits...

If I had to tip somebody [for the title]... then it's got to be me!

Sometimes a touch of arrogance/confidence is a good thing. And that wink is as cheeky but cool as you like.

0:46

 

[homeforsummer]

Menu was always a clean racer, which is why I like him. I remember him toughening up a bit in 98 though as he started getting pushed around a lot.

My least-favourite pass currently common in the BTCC is the nudge pass, where someone nudges another into the braking zone and nips up the inside. Doesn't damage the defending car and rarely pushes someone off the circuit, but it's just quite underhand. Plato and Neal do it all the damn time.

 

[Liquid]

Menu was always a clean racer, which is why I like him. I remember him toughening up a bit in 98 though as he started getting pushed around a lot.

Top racer. Presses a hard, but ultimately fair bargain. We've gone over this before, but 1998 is the only season or reason I would have reasons against Alain Menu. But I still don't. Oh, and here's a picture just for you, hfs. Does the 1994 Laguna justice.

 

[Tired Tyres]

Menu was always a clean racer, which is why I like him. I remember him toughening up a bit in 98 though as he started getting pushed around a lot.

My least-favourite pass currently common in the BTCC is the nudge pass, where someone nudges another into the braking zone and nips up the inside. Doesn't damage the defending car and rarely pushes someone off the circuit, but it's just quite underhand. Plato and Neal do it all the damn time.

Of course they do. It's how you pass these days. 👎

That's why I prefer to watch the 911 races. Those cars are very susceptible to front and rear damage so they tend to at least try to pass properly.

 

[Liquid]

That's why I prefer to watch the 911 races. Those cars are very susceptible to front and rear damage so they tend to at least try to pass properly.

But clean racing is 'boring' these days.