Dutch motorists find themselves in 1984

[sn00pie]

A law has been passed that will require Dutch motorists to keep GPS devices on their cars, which allows the government to track the amount of kilometers driven, when - and where.

Source article here.

The system is fair, because from 2012, as a Dutch motorist you will be taxed according to the amount of kilometers driven. The reasoning behind this system is to discourage car usage in order to help cutting back on air pollution.

The problem here is, and this is quite retarded: your every move will be tracked!!!

 

[Jetboy.]

It's 🤬 like this I fear the most. That can be used to track anything from minor speeding infractions to remote vehicle shutdown. 👎



Cheers,
Jetboy

 

[Scaff]

It's 🤬 like this I fear the most. That can be used to track anything from minor speeding infractions to remote vehicle shutdown. 👎



Cheers,
Jetboy

Jetboy

I've edited your post for you, but in future please don't try and get around the swear filter. Either use the 🤬 smilie, let the swear filter remove the whole word or don't swear.


Thanks

Scaff

 

[Jetboy.]

Jetboy

I've edited your post for you, but in future please don't try and get around the swear filter. Either use the 🤬 smilie, let the swear filter remove the whole word or don't swear.


Thanks

Scaff

Sorry, figured three dashes would have been enough. Understood. 👍

 

[Danoff]

How long before someone comes up with the idea to use this as evidence to prosecute a crime?

Silly dutch, don't you know that you can track people more reliably if the GPS is in their skull rather than the car?

 

[sn00pie]

It's 🤬 like this I fear the most. That can be used to track anything from minor speeding infractions to remote vehicle shutdown. 👎



Cheers,
Jetboy

Exactly. It's only a matter of time until this database is going to be made available to police agencies, collection companies, the justice department. This may not sound too bad, but in the long run we're all 🤬.

 

[Jetboy.]

Exactly. It's only a matter of time until this database is going to be made available to police agency, collection agency, the justice department. This may not sound too bad, but in the long run we're all 🤬.

No, it really does sound that bad. I mean, I know OnStar already does the shutdown deal (if the vehicle is reported stolen).

But what about when this system/device fails? Who pays for it? What if it malfunctions, misreads and you get levied with a huge fine. What is that? How can you prove otherwise, unless it's some obscene mistake?


This fear runs right up there with the future holding cars that drive themselves. I hate all of it.

 

[Danoff]

But what about when this system/device fails? Who pays for it? What if it malfunctions, misreads and you get levied with a huge fine. What is that? How can you prove otherwise, unless it's some obscene mistake?

In my area there is a redlight camera that repeatedly mistakenly fines people for making a legal maneuver. Generally the hassle of fighting it makes it worth paying the ticket. I'm sure this will start out no differently.

 

[Appie]

Sadly it will happen that they will use the GPS for other things than the distance you driven .

 

[Joel]

I'm getting tired of this. When do we draw the line between security and privacy? Why not just record your odometer when you go for an inspection, and then record it the next time?

It's obviously not for global warming, helping the environment, or any other bull:censored: reason. It's to track you, and your family's every move.

 

[crooky369]

I can fully understand them wanting the distance travelled but also knowing where your going is ridiculous.

 

[NLxAROSA]

I can fully understand them wanting the distance travelled but also knowing where your going is ridiculous.

That's why the system only transmits the first and not the second. The source article is wrong. It used to be that way, but they made changes because the CBP (College For Protection Of Personal Data, a government agency designed specifically to counter bad things like this ) objected to some of the privacy-invading design decisions. The system now only transmits distance driven + tariff of the driven distances. No location data is sent. And like most large government projects, it is likely to fail or be really late, so I don't expect it to be actually implemented before another ten years or so.

 

[ranhammerR34]

Oh 🤬 .... Its the end of the world as we know it! Ah it might take a while to put into action. Okay, cool.... and I messed up and double posted? What is wrong with me?

 

[ranhammerR34]

ERROR. Double post.

 

[Jetboy.]

Please, avoid double posting, it's looked down upon.. the edit button is your friend. 👍


Cheers,
Jetboy

 

[speedyK]

But this is only in your car.

There are Dutch people who have already voluntarily had a chip implanted in themselves that can be scanned – this was for a night club, in order to get easy access (the chip shows taht you are a member – and drinks etc. just get scanned to your account.

Dogs here in Switzerland already have to have an scannable identity chip implanted...

you can see where this is going...

it won't be long before the politicians decide that humans need one too – with all your data: all kinds of insurance, various licences, health info, criminal record, employment record/status, bank/credit card details - and whatever else they can think of.

And naturally, it will all be for our good, will be certainly not be open to abuse and will never, ever, ever get anything wrong*.

Ha, ha, ha... I'm not laughing.


* Heaven help you if it does. Just try proving it!

 

[Appie]

But this is only in your car.

There are Dutch people who have already voluntarily had a chip implanted in themselves that can be scanned – this was for a night club, in order to get easy access (the chip shows taht you are a member – and drinks etc. just get scanned to your account.

Dogs here in Switzerland already have to have an scannable identity chip implanted...

you can see where this is going...

it won't be long before the politicians decide that humans need one too – with all your data: all kinds of insurance, various licences, health info, criminal record, employment record/status, bank/credit card details - and whatever else they can think of.

And naturally, it will all be for our good, will be certainly not be open to abuse and will never, ever, ever get anything wrong*.

Ha, ha, ha... I'm not laughing.


* Heaven help you if it does. Just try proving it!

Are you the goverment?

 

[Max Powers]

I thought keeping track of distance was the odometer's job.

This would really scare the hell out of me if it ever happened here.

 

[Rotary Junkie]

At least classic cars are exempt.

/EFI'd and overdrive trans-equipped classics taking over the road.

 

[Northstar]

Dogs here in Switzerland already have to have an scannable identity chip implanted...

We have that here as well and it's one of the best things you can do as a pet owner(besides all that necessary stuff).


Back on topic, This sounds like one of those government programs that isn't thought out well. I would assume that the cost of implementing it(they are paying for the transmitters right?) would be more than they will gain back in taxes.

I just feel bad for people that have long commutes just to get to/from work.

 

[NLxAROSA]

I just feel bad for people that have long commutes just to get to/from work.

Thanks.

I heard that for people driving less than 12500 km per year it's not going to be more expensive. Unfortunately, 12500 km per year is virtually nothing. Even my wife, who works in the same city as we live, drives more than that. I drive around 30000 km per year, so it's going to be more expensive for me.

 

[J-PaP]

What happens if you need to get your car towed? Hope it only turns on when the car is on. I suspect also a lot of workarounds to pop up to bypass this system.

 

[Mark T]

Why not just put an increase on fuel? That way those who drive more pay more.

 

[Swift]

They taxes on gas right? It's part of their revenue stream right? So what happens when people stop driving so much and the money goes down? Woh, that's right they'll raise the gas taxes anyway!

Didn't this already happen in Oregon? They told everyone to get smaller more effecient cars to "save the planet" and they made less money so they're thinking about doing what the dutch are doing.

The environmentalist agenda me sound good, but put into practice without forethought it becomes a vicious cycle. One that will hurt the people far worse then they would hurt the environment.

 

[sn00pie]

Why not just put an increase on fuel? That way those who drive more pay more.

That wouldn't work, because people would simply hop over to Germany and Belgium for fuel.

 

[J-PaP]

That wouldn't work, because people would simply hop over to Germany and Belgium for fuel.

That would hardly be convenient for all residents though. Also there is nothing to stop people finding work arounds to having a gps device installed either.

eg. If the device only works when car is turned on, I imagine some ingenius people will begin to turn their cars off during downslopes. So in an attempt to reduce road use there will also be an increase in car crashes, if not fatalities.

There are also dozens of implications for how they will adapt such a system to all different types of cars let alone ensure they cannot be tampered with.

Best of luck implementing this system. I'm sure it will be as much of a success as Australia's attempts to monitor internet usage in order to reduce piracy.

 

[wfooshee]

Several states (including my own Florida) have had legislators or governors talk about this, and it's come up at cabinet-level discussions in Washington as well, because the gasoline tax is falling short of funding our highways. Everybody wanted fuel-efficient cars, but nobody saw that the gas tax income would fall??? Is government really that short-sighted???!?!?!

It is stated that taxing mileage would be a more accurate way of charging for road use. Taxing the actual fuel is inaccurate? How? I drive more, then I buy more gas, right? OK, I get 30 mpg in a Civic instead of 17 in a Probe GT now. If the average mpg falls, the gas tax should adjust. But there's no way in hell that the government should have any access to my exact driving habits.

In an article I found on the federal discussion, fears of misuse of the system were addressed with a simple statement:

". . . driving information would be contained within the device on the car, with the amount of the tax due the only information that's downloaded . . . "

Promises, promises. The hardware is capable of reporting my exact location at any time I operate the vehicle, when, where, how far, and how fast. They may say all they want is how far, but once the hardware is in place, it's a very simple matter to change software, without anybody knowing, to get any of the other information the GPS receiver is capable of recording. It's firmware can even be upgraded during a "download" session. And to do that download it's supposed to actually plug in somewhere, so it's not real-time, but how long before somebody decides they need to report over the air, in real time? Classic case of foot-in-the-door politics:

We need to know how far you've driven so we can tax your road use appropriately.

Now we need to know which roads you've been on so we can collect stats on road use and routing decisions.

Now we need to know what time of day you've been there so we can collect data on traffic patterns.

Now we need to know how fast you were going on those roads so we can collect data on speed enforcement.

Now we need to do it wirelessly in real time to simplify the data collection.

Well, now we just need to know if you've been a good boy or not, and where to send the tickets.

Only the first of the "We need" lines requires anything new hardware-wise, so don't you dare call me paranoid. (The wireless might need new hardware if it wasn't designed in from the beginning.)

And what kind of agency would track that??!?!?! And do we set up allowances for certain needs, like low-income, elderly, emergency service volunteers, personal vehicles used in business? Sounds a lot like another IRS, doesn't it?

 

[nk4e]

Silly dutch, don't you know that you can track people more reliably if the GPS is in their skull rather than the car?

Didn't they make that into a movie with Cuba Gooding Jr.? But anyways, I wonder if they have enforced the public to bike more to their daily places. Oregon does that as well, and so does some good parts of California. But the GPS tracking, the government has became a big taxi that is charging by the mile.

 

[magicalgin]

The problem now is, is that the current tax kind off fails. They charge per weight, so if you have a heavy car you have to pay more. Anyways like my fellow dutchman said, "so I don't expect it to be actually implemented before another ten years or so"

 

[daan]

You're just going to have to put your clogs on and walk to the brothels now, mate. 👍