E3 2011: The Parallel Paths of Forza Motorsport 4

[zr1chris]

I don't know you guys but:

>GT5 fans should stay in GT5 playing GT5
>FM fans should be playing FM and actually discussing FM4(in this case)

The discussion over FM vs GT first appeared in GT5 forums back at the day and it was plain rubbish(I used to be one of those stupid fans),the problem is that at this point GT and FM are complete different games,having own and play both games I have to say that I like GT over FM but because of the Nurburgring 24 and Lemans 24 experiences(also F1),which are just simple personal preferences and do not reflect a general consensus,which is the whole point of the FM vs GT threads and fights all about.

At this point FM vs GT is just a point of discussion that trolls take advantage of,it is obvious,my point is that both sides can be correct,but the differences between both games are significant and therefore makes discussion invalid(i.e. its like comparing COD and BF games,are under the same war thing,but they are complete different games,how can you discuss flight mechanics on COD when there isn't any).

This lends me to a conclusion,if you like FM discuss FM,if you like FM and GT, discuss FM and if you like GT then go over GT forums section,so many things that needs to be ask and revised about FM(no one has notice yet the controller re mapping and a potential sharper rewind function,and the career structure and more stuff from trailers and videos).

Edit:

Mods do not revise these treads due to these kind of situations,they got fed up in discussions of this kind on GT5 section that they do not longer care,and actual "interesting discussion" is just a mixture of BS and facts.

Both are good games and both have their good points and bad. These are arguably the 2 most similar and popular racing games there are right now. I don't see the problem with debating the differences between the 2 as long as people can be respectful.

 

[Bogie 19th]

Mods do not revise these treads due to these kind of situations,they got fed up in discussions of this kind on GT5 section that they do not longer care,and actual "interesting discussion" is just a mixture of BS and facts.

Scaff (mod), cares.

 

[Luminis]

Yeah, everyone likes self-proclaimed peacekeepers

I don't know you guys but:
(i.e. its like comparing COD and BF games,are under the same war thing,but they are complete different games,how can you discuss flight mechanics on COD when there isn't any).

Who's comparing things that aren't in both games? We've been either stating that something's not there in comparison (duh), or stuff that's different in both games.
Both games have driving physics, right? So, what's wrong with comparing those? It's like comparing the recoil in COD and BF.

 

[Akira AC]

Who's comparing things that aren't in both games? We've been either stating that something's not there in comparison (duh), or stuff that's different in both games.
Both games have driving physics, right? So, what's wrong with comparing those? It's like comparing the recoil in COD and BF.

Wind dynamics(not present in FM),and other variables in GT game engine(Road surface).

Also,the constant avoidance of the whole "Driving Aid topic" which is constant all the time in FM3 and cannot be deactivated,too much for simulating actual tyre physics when there is an aid that makes the game more arcadish(cannot be deactivated and spoilt both simulation and actual physics)

 

[McLaren]

I could have sworn somebody already posted proof that wind dynamics were present against you....

 

[Bogie 19th]

I could have sworn somebody already posted proof that wind dynamics were present against you....

Drafting in FM3 is part of the wind physics.

 

[Dave A]

I can't tell, is that The Stig in the car?. If so 👍

I don't think so, the driver of that car had a white helmet but a black suit.

 

[zr1chris]

I don't think so, the driver of that car had a white helmet but a black suit.

Yes the helmet isn't the same either. Its white but not the same.

 

[Akira AC]

Drafting in FM3 is part of the wind physics.

While that is true,it doesn't match complexity of GT's engine,the downforce is not taken as a speed value in GT5,FM3 does this(along with grip values),which is not wrong in FM's case due to the absence of open wheel cars(caparo doesn't count because it takes same values as other cars like LMP's).

In GT5,wind physics are necessary due to the open wheel cars,in F1 cars the management of both rear and front downforce should be managed correctly,in lower speeds the lack of downforce makes the car undrivable,this does happen in GT5 because it has these kind of cars(open wheel),while in FM this is not necessary to be simulated.

 

[Bogie 19th]

I am aware that the other game does have wind physics (although, not very good). It's more noticeable though, as PD does give you wind feedback sound with increased speed, which is nice.

 

[Crispy]

So yeah,almost every FM thread goes to the stupid GT vs FM discussion,so be proud of yourselves.

In topics regarding FM4 I have to say that the "Dynamic difficulty" is something that I'm eager to see,for the *eagle eye viewer*,I started to notice that the game reads the player's racing line and speed(closer look to the Sim racing Demo),also the shaking effect is correct in faster cars(not unbearable camera shaking like in Shift 2)and AI overall seem now correct.

And Turn10 must withdraw the driving aid ,or at least make it be able to be disable.

Plenty of things to discuss that are actually important and you guys goes down to FM vs GT

(I'm just realising that I'm starting to hate the FM fandom and not the game itself)

They have an option to disable the driving aid. I think its called Simulation handling mode.

 

[Luminis]

Wind dynamics(not present in FM),and other variables in GT game engine(Road surface).

And all of that is part of whaht? Exactly, the driving physics. If we want to compare those, than yes, it#s only natural that the lack of, say, wind physics (if that is the case) in Forza is mentioned, just as the lack of tyre physics alltogether in GT5.

Also,the constant avoidance of the whole "Driving Aid topic" which is constant all the time in FM3 and cannot be deactivated,too much for simulating actual tyre physics when there is an aid that makes the game more arcadish(cannot be deactivated and spoilt both simulation and actual physics)

First of, the amount of influence the steering aid had was quite minimal. Most people wouldn't even have noticed if they weren't told it was their.
Second, it can be turned of in Forza 4. So that's quite a moot point, isn't it?

 

[Bonefork]

Heavy edits...

Wind dynamics(not present in FM),and other variables in GT game engine(Road surface).

While that is true,it doesn't match complexity of GT's engine,the downforce is not taken as a speed value in GT5,FM3 does this(along with grip values),which is not wrong in FM's case due to the absence of open wheel cars(caparo doesn't count because it takes same values as other cars like LMP's).

In GT5,wind physics are necessary due to the open wheel cars,in F1 cars the management of both rear and front downforce should be managed correctly,in lower speeds the lack of downforce makes the car undrivable,this does happen in GT5 because it has these kind of cars(open wheel),while in FM this is not necessary to be simulated.

Haha! "Wind physics." Funny stuff. You pull all of this straight out of your ass, then below this comment you're requesting proof for something right on the Forza web site:
http://forzamotorsport.net/en-us/FM4_Unveiled_E3_2011/

And for the vets out there, we’ve added a new difficulty level that stows the assists for pure, unadulterated automotive anger

Stop trying to derail the thread with lame comparisons between GT5 and Forza. You don't have an ounce of evidence to support your wild claims, and yet this isn't the first time I've called you out on your BS.

 

[Akira AC]

They have an option to disable the driving aid. I think its called Simulation handling mode.

Screenshot of that please.

And since no one has played FM4 yet is difficult to known if this option will be included or not,I think that it will be optional(enabled/disabled),but I will keep sceptical until this is proven wrong.

Also,having a go again to the FM videos I could not stop noticing the colour of the racing gloves,maybe "clothes changing" is possible.

 

[cuco33]

Dan Greenwalt said in some of the interviews that we'll have an expert/pro mode to disable any (very minimal) driving aid. I'll be selecting that option 100%. I rarely race with any assists. At most, driving line for new tracks to learn it or traction control until I tune the car so I'm not spinning everywhere.

 

[McLaren]

Screenshot of that please.

And since no one has played FM4 yet is difficult to known if this option will be included or not,I think that it will be optional(enabled/disabled),but I will keep sceptical until this is proven wrong.

Also,having a go again to the FM videos I could not stop noticing the colour of the racing gloves,maybe "clothes changing" is possible.

1) The developers have been releasing the inclusion of such modes.
2) That hasn't stopped you from making questionable remarks in the past.

 

[Luminis]

The simulation steering mode can even be seen in some of the gameplay videos in the thread dedicated to them

 

[boxox]

I could have sworn somebody already posted proof that wind dynamics were present against you....

Yep, looks like someone deleted my post with no explanation / warning? Nice.

Nonetheless Forza does have a per-track directional wind system, and a system that makes car's aero parts react differently to wind instability. Though I'm not going to go hunting through gamedb/track xmls to find it again. It's not exactly some full blown rFactor style affair where you have parameters to cover everything from from blown diffusers to asymmetric NASCAR fenders and flip-up wings on the roof to road cars producing net lift to whatever - maybe 1/10th as many aero parameters - but it's got the basics of what you would expect.

 

[Bonefork]

Nonetheless Forza does have a per-track directional wind system, and a system that makes car's aero parts react differently to wind instability. Though I'm not going to go hunting through gamedb/track xmls to find it again.

Having a wind speed to push clouds around and make flags bellow is one thing, but what proof is there that the physics engines in these two games are this advanced? An XML document with two doubles is not proof, neither are your observations while playing. Has any developer ever given anyone here any reason to believe this, or are you just making assumptions based on the speculations of some guy who ripped some config files from the disc?

 

[Bogie 19th]

Having a wind speed to push clouds around and make flags bellow is one thing, but what proof is there that the physics engines in these two games are this advanced? An XML document with two doubles is not proof, neither are your observations while playing. Has any developer ever given anyone here any reason to believe this, or are you just making assumptions based on the speculations of some guy who ripped some config files from the disc?

When aero makes a difference in your cornering and top end, it's proof.
When the game supports drafting, it's proof.
When your car top end is affected with body damage, it's proof.

All of the above happens in Forza 3.

 

[boxox]

It's not amazingly simple to test without a hacked 360. I think you are being a little paranoid if you think that someone at Turn 10 left some red herring in there where they coded several distinct sets of parameters to control wind effects, set a per-car setting on them, and never mentioned it to anyone in the hope that someone would rip the game disc and post about it 2 years later in order to convince people that its otherwise fairly rudimentary aero model has wind effect features.

You might be a fanboy if...

 

[Bonefork]

When aero makes a difference in your cornering and top end, it's proof.
When the game supports drafting, it's proof.
When your car top end is affected with body damage, it's proof.

All of the above happens in Forza 3.

None of that is proof of the claim. THE algorithm designed to calculate the resistance on inertia based on an assigned wind pressure would be proof; a developer stating that they calculate barometric forces in real-time would be proof; but your observations are not proof.

"The idea of simulating physics is like the idea of simulating the weather," said Creative Director Dan Greenawalt. "We've got global warming models. Are they accurate? They're more accurate than in the 1800s where they held a finger to the wind. Our medicine is more accurate than snake oil salesmen. They're not as accurate as they will be."

Even Einstein couldn't fully figure out gravity. I think you're all holding way too much stock in the capabilities of these programmers and the hardware.

You might be a fanboy if...

That's interesting, because I'm saying neither GT5 nor Forza has this capability. I guess I'm a fanboy of logical conclusions and facts. Weight, inertia, grip, maybe some really abstracted numbers to associate with weight distribution or body shape... anything else, you're going to need proof for me to believe it.

 

[Bogie 19th]

I'm sorry, but I hope that New York is pulled from Forza 4. I just did 20 laps, R1 for season final event (event 7/13 season 6), and that was just horrible. That is NOT a race track, I'm sorry. It's just my opinion of course, but it was mind numbing lame.

None of that is proof of the claim. THE algorithm designed to calculate the resistance on inertia based on an assigned wind pressure would be proof; a developer stating that they calculate barometric forces in real-time would be proof; but your observations are not proof.

They are not observations. They are actual events in the game that affect the car handling due to wind (and weight).

Next thing I know, you will tell me that the blue palette in the livery editor isn't blue because I observed the color blue, and that is not proof.

 

[Bonefork]

They are not observations. They are actual events in the game that affect the car handling due to wind (and weight).

Next thing I know, you will tell me that the blue palette in the livery editor isn't blue because I observed the color blue, and that is not proof.

Your strawman is colorblind. For all you know, without PROOF, they simply decrease the "stability" integer on the car (or tire) when you damage it, you have no sweet clue what's going on in the code and if something is being simulated or simply represented. Occam's Razor at work.

For my money, I would assume [based solely on observation and prior supplied knowledge] that outside of downforce and drafting, the physics of the wind aren't even paid any attention in these games. I also can't think of a reason why they should bother with all the other things that need attention, a good 80% of the physics from driving are in how the tires interact with the road and the weight of the car (as it effects inertia). The speed of the wind pales in comparison to the gravitational/wind effects of another car passing you at high speed, and I've never noticed that coming into play in any of these games, so it only further stands to reason that these things aren't being simulated.

 

[Digitool]

Your strawman is colorblind. For all you know, without PROOF, they simply decrease the "stability" integer on the car (or tire) when you damage it, you have no sweet clue what's going on in the code and if something is being simulated or simply represented. Occam's Razor at work.

For my money, I would assume [based solely on observation and prior supplied knowledge] that outside of downforce and drafting, the physics of the wind aren't even paid any attention in these games. I also can't think of a reason why they should bother with all the other things that need attention.

wow dude get a ****ing clue. do research before you claim it doesn't happen.

there have been dev statements about all of this stuff in FM3 or even FM2. just because you haven't seen it doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

second, why don't you post the code to show us the the counterpart (GT5) does have have it?

You're a trolling ****ing joke who needs to get a life and get the **** out of this thread.

God you fanboys are going to get me banned but your flaming ignorance is getting a little old.

 

[phil-t]

Wind dynamics(not present in FM),and other variables in GT game engine(Road surface).

Also,the constant avoidance of the whole "Driving Aid topic" which is constant all the time in FM3 and cannot be deactivated,too much for simulating actual tyre physics when there is an aid that makes the game more arcadish(cannot be deactivated and spoilt both simulation and actual physics)

Driving Aid?

I checked that out, and whilst I'm no expert, I'm open to being cross examined on it..

https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?p=4238725#post4238725

More Kool Aid then Driving Aid IMO..

 

[Akira AC]

wow dude get a ****ing clue. do research before you claim it doesn't happen.

there have been dev statements about all of this stuff in FM3 or even FM2. just because you haven't seen it doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

second, why don't you post the code to show us the the counterpart (GT5) does have have it?

You're a trolling ****ing joke who needs to get a life and get the **** out of this thread.

God you fanboys are going to get me banned but your flaming ignorance is getting a little old.

This guy should be warn,however I do agree in some points, because all the claims done thus far are based on code that only dev teams have access to,which makes it pure BS,the problem with this is:if he have access then he is making an illegal intrusion on the source code.

Now,the game is written under an engine,then the scripting team and game engine engineers define the values that should be included in the game,then the values and algorithms are build(Gravity values,data reading parameters and stuff),these conditions can be known if you have access to the data scripts that contains the conditions of each car,the problem is that both GT5 and FM3 have the code closed ,you don't have access to the dev tools either because those are develop by the dev team(its not like source which code is open to everyone,and its code is flexible so you can modified with some txt files,I'm also aware that FM3 codes could be written under txt but I haven't check that out)and the tools are only held by the dev team.

Also I haven't seen(also haven't search)any mods for FM3,I don't think that such thing exists due to the close nature of the code.

 

[Digitool]

right i understand that its not open source coding, that would be awefully stupid of them.

but what you just said means that you're the pot calling the kettle black.

There is no way for you to prove one way or the other on this argument, you're just trolling at this point.

there have been observations made that other people confirm to support the argument against your case that such thing exists.

I can't help the fact that you choose to refuse that, and that is your right, so just drop it already and stop trying to make a point when it is obvious you don't have anything to back your words up.

I come to the Forza section of this site to discuss forza, not see a bunch of GT fanboys try to convince people the game is inferior to gran turismo.

I play forza... i play gran turismo 5... i come to the forza section to discuss forza and the upcoming release, stop ruining my experience on this forum.

 

[cuco33]

I'm sorry, but I hope that New York is pulled from Forza 4. I just did 20 laps, R1 for season final event (event 7/13 season 6), and that was just horrible. That is NOT a race track, I'm sorry. It's just my opinion of course, but it was mind numbing lame.

I'm in race 2 of that series in season 6. Been mostly doing the events list and holding off on that final racing series. I don't own the car I want to really use in the R1 series championship because I'm a sucker for other cars and modifying them for events list. I like the NY track though but not when using a crazy fast car. The chicanes are nice when you have a good powered and well balanced car, but when you take a seriously fast car, those chicanes are no longer as fun. You go from all out or almost all out in a slower car to massive braking leading to the turns.

 

[Bonefork]

wow dude get a ****ing clue. do research before you claim it doesn't happen.

there have been dev statements about all of this stuff in FM3 or even FM2. just because you haven't seen it doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

second, why don't you post the code to show us the the counterpart (GT5) does have have it?

You're a trolling ****ing joke who needs to get a life and get the **** out of this thread.

God you fanboys are going to get me banned but your flaming ignorance is getting a little old.

Wow, man, calm yourself down. Are you even reading my posts? Because I said NEITHER game has it. I don't know much about PC sims but I doubt they do either.

I'm calling BS on the idea that these games are doing any of these alleged calculations and all you can do is flip your lid. In debate that's an instant loss. Never mind the fact that this all stems from someone claiming GT5 does it and Forza doesn't.

There's a crap-load of anecdotal and circumstantial evidence in this thread and still no PROOF of these claims. Provide the developer statement you claim exists, and I'll crown you king of Google and proceed to shut up -- hell, I'll even pledge to leave and never return (the Fanatec is almost here anyway...) -- otherwise, don't piss on me and tell me it's simulated rain.

Unlike some people I actually do a little research before I speak, and there was nothing I could find with Google about developers discussing wind physics for racing games. Not even a research article on the theory and algorithms. Sorry, I'm just not buying the BS.

PS. Edit. Also, I love these games!! It doesn't bother me in the slightest if the wind isn't calculated.