End of the road for manual shifters?
- Thread starter Pebb
- 254 comments
- 16,805 views
- 5,178
- Worcester, MA
- skip0110
Because your average person does not pay enough attention to shift for optimal economy.
So, you should certainly lug a non-hybrid engine for best economy.
How about a on a hybrid? What would be best? I would say coast in neutral when possible; lugging the engine would also be best for economy.
Ever seen an Eclipse?
Best. car. ever.
Go away
Just kidding.
- 20,145
- Australia
- VIPERGTS01
They will have to pry a manual shifter out of my cold dead hands before I give it up. I need my clutch!!
Just look how popular Manual trans threads are here, someone posts a thread about manual transmission advice and *Bam* instant 10 page thread full of posts overnight.
Just look how popular Manual trans threads are here, someone posts a thread about manual transmission advice and *Bam* instant 10 page thread full of posts overnight.
- 2,336
- Los Angeles, CA
- WRBWRXMAX
- Max Archer
S14 240SX/Silvia/200SX also had vents on the door. Don't recall if S13s did, but I'm pretty sure S15s didn't.
The door vents were crap, by the way. Sending the air out the side of the dash, into the door, meant that the door vents had very week airflow.
The door vents were crap, by the way. Sending the air out the side of the dash, into the door, meant that the door vents had very week airflow.
- 23,800
- Philippines
Most automatics still can't get the same fuel consumption as manuals simply because of drivetrain drag. CVTs come close, though... they're actually pretty good at saving gas in smaller cars because if you have very little torque to worry about, you can actually make a CVT as light (or lighter) as a manual tranny.
Sucks to drive, though... Honda's CVTs are about as thrilling as drag racing a go-kart, but man, do they save gas.
Sad reality is, for most of us, buying a regular car with a manual is becoming an increasingly remote possibility. That's about the only reason I haven't upgraded to a new Focus or Mazda3, simply because our local dealerships won't offer them in MT.
Thank God the Civic's available in MT (seriously, how could you buy one in AT when the MT has that sweeeeeet shifter?), but I don't particularly like the steering. And the Civic needs the MT... the AT's gearing is a bit too long to take advantage of the top-end punch in traffic.
Sucks to drive, though... Honda's CVTs are about as thrilling as drag racing a go-kart, but man, do they save gas.
Sad reality is, for most of us, buying a regular car with a manual is becoming an increasingly remote possibility. That's about the only reason I haven't upgraded to a new Focus or Mazda3, simply because our local dealerships won't offer them in MT.
Thank God the Civic's available in MT (seriously, how could you buy one in AT when the MT has that sweeeeeet shifter?), but I don't particularly like the steering. And the Civic needs the MT... the AT's gearing is a bit too long to take advantage of the top-end punch in traffic.
- 8,191
- Southern Louisiana
- GTP_Kent
I am absolutely 100% sure both Ford and Mazda would be very interested to hear your story and based on face value, absolutely outraged with the conduct of the dealership.
I've never been to a car lot where a dealer refused to offer a manual transmission to a car that comes with a manual (as an option or as stardard equipment).
Longest car ever.
- 21,286
- GR-MI-USA
- YSSMAN
- YSSMAN
My two cents:
I'll keep buying manual cars until they stop making them, and I'll be happy to be one the last bastions of performance-minded, driver-oriented motoring. Sure, I may be persuaded by DSG eventually, but IMO, there isn't anything quite like rowing your own gears, use of the left foot included.
...I really don't find it surprising to hear about Toyota driving away from the idea of a manual. They've already managed to suck all of the involvement out of the drive, they don't have much less to destroy. "
I'll keep buying manual cars until they stop making them, and I'll be happy to be one the last bastions of performance-minded, driver-oriented motoring. Sure, I may be persuaded by DSG eventually, but IMO, there isn't anything quite like rowing your own gears, use of the left foot included.
...I really don't find it surprising to hear about Toyota driving away from the idea of a manual. They've already managed to suck all of the involvement out of the drive, they don't have much less to destroy. "
Toyota Representative
I understand that I would want the fastest possible transmission to make my car as fast as possible, and if clutchless is it, then clutchless it is.
Scaff
Moderator
- 29,588
- He/Him
- ScaffUK
It's valid as an opinion, but I don't think its accurate at all.
I prefer to use a clutch over a clutchless (regardless of shift speed) because of the enjoyment of being involved in the process. I enjoy getting a heel and toe change done just right, and don't give a hoot what other people think.
It would be just as valid to argue that people who want a clutchless, simply because its faster are just as much a poser on the ground that they could then brag about how fast the car shifts (step forward a number of VW DSG drivers I have spoken to). Yes the DSG system is technically amazing, but for me it lacks involvement and certainly does not make someone a better, faster or more capable driver by itself.
Posers will exist in both camps on this one, so labeling either camp this way is inaccurate.
Regards
Scaff
- 8,191
- Southern Louisiana
- GTP_Kent
About the automatic cup holder...
I doubt that came from Toyota because, hate them or not, they generally aren't dumb enough to make typos in their press releases...
)
Also, I don't like the attitude about that post simply because I've driven the competition and decided there really isn't that much difference between Toyota cars and the average car on the road (although there may be a difference in the feel of a Toyota and the class leader for pretentious car magazine reviews).
Moving on though... I feel like there are people who are genuine and there are others who are not.
(much like Scaff's excellent point about posers in each camp 👍 )
Personally, I genuinely love to run through gears on a manual transmission. I've stole my sister's Integra just to run the gears, I've driven pretty much every one of my friends cars who had a manual transmission, I just love to drive a clutch.
However, in my personal life I've only considered a Manual transmission when I was buying a sports car. Not a Corolla or anything along those lines.
I've got various family members who need to drive my car from time to time. I've had an injured ankle in the past... I've seen how trouble-some it can be to smoke, shift, and use a cell phone all at once... I've been stuck in uphill traffic through bumper to bumper jams on I-10w as I drove through New Orleans...
The list of reasons to get an Automatic was and always is great for me.
Despite my love of driving, I had to put aside my selfish desire to be a "driver" and do what was best for my life and the life of those around me.
I'd like you guys to think about that sort of thing before you consider putting down on people who don't insist on driving a manual transmission.
Driving a manual or insisting on owning one doesn't make you any more of a driver.
I doubt that came from Toyota because, hate them or not, they generally aren't dumb enough to make typos in their press releases...
I believe that's supposed to be "At." And on that note, I don't think it is acceptable to use the quote function if you are not actually quoting. (although I don't know if that is a quote or not
)Also, I don't like the attitude about that post simply because I've driven the competition and decided there really isn't that much difference between Toyota cars and the average car on the road (although there may be a difference in the feel of a Toyota and the class leader for pretentious car magazine reviews).
Moving on though... I feel like there are people who are genuine and there are others who are not.
(much like Scaff's excellent point about posers in each camp 👍 )
Personally, I genuinely love to run through gears on a manual transmission. I've stole my sister's Integra just to run the gears, I've driven pretty much every one of my friends cars who had a manual transmission, I just love to drive a clutch.
However, in my personal life I've only considered a Manual transmission when I was buying a sports car. Not a Corolla or anything along those lines.
I've got various family members who need to drive my car from time to time. I've had an injured ankle in the past... I've seen how trouble-some it can be to smoke, shift, and use a cell phone all at once... I've been stuck in uphill traffic through bumper to bumper jams on I-10w as I drove through New Orleans...
The list of reasons to get an Automatic was and always is great for me.
Despite my love of driving, I had to put aside my selfish desire to be a "driver" and do what was best for my life and the life of those around me.
I'd like you guys to think about that sort of thing before you consider putting down on people who don't insist on driving a manual transmission.
Driving a manual or insisting on owning one doesn't make you any more of a driver.
Mine's Motorsports
Scaff
Moderator
- 29,588
- He/Him
- ScaffUK
I quite agree, and it does depend on the car from time to time as well, '80s & '90s Mercs were amazingly well engineered cars in almost every area. The one area they were weak on was manual gearboxes, I've never driven a Merc from this period with a decent one, but the Auto boxes were amazing. My dad had a 190e 2.3 16v...
...in black with an auto box and that was a stunning drivers car (and I still berate him to this day for selling it).
Regards
Scaff
- 8,191
- Southern Louisiana
- GTP_Kent
Well, as I mentioned earlier, I had a 300SD, which is one nasty 5 cylinder turbo deisel. 
The transmission wasn't a smooth shifter but it certainly was reliable and the shift times were fast (probably because it was built to run with that turbo engine).
That said, I also want to mention my Corolla is another car where the manual transmission is the weak point.
I mentioned it earlier in this thread as well but pretty much everything about the 1ZZ-FE screams auto transmission.
To make matters of that subject even more interesting, every 9th generation Corolla driver I have talked to about their manual transmission has had complaints about the feel of the power delivery where as with my automatic,
, my friends think the car shows great torque and in turn feels quite good in daily driving (all things considered).
(the light weight of the car doesn't hurt either)
Point is... Scaff is dead-on... Often times the best transmission depends on the car and not the driver. 👍
The transmission wasn't a smooth shifter but it certainly was reliable and the shift times were fast (probably because it was built to run with that turbo engine).
That said, I also want to mention my Corolla is another car where the manual transmission is the weak point.
I mentioned it earlier in this thread as well but pretty much everything about the 1ZZ-FE screams auto transmission.
To make matters of that subject even more interesting, every 9th generation Corolla driver I have talked to about their manual transmission has had complaints about the feel of the power delivery where as with my automatic,
, my friends think the car shows great torque and in turn feels quite good in daily driving (all things considered).(the light weight of the car doesn't hurt either)
Point is... Scaff is dead-on... Often times the best transmission depends on the car and not the driver. 👍
- 1,838
Transmissions...
It depends on what you want.
Do you want an involving drive? Where every limb are used? You want to drift? Like to heel and toe?
Get a manual.
And in most cases, manual is the fastest choice out there and more economical too.
But not anymore, If you just want to be the fastest, there is DSG or F1 based trans.
You want economy, CVT can do it too. Plus, if you're incompetent in choosing shift points, then manual is gonna be unefficient.
For manufacturers, they just do what the majority wants, simple as that.
In my country, no mercedes sold is manual(starting from the last 10 years or so) before that mahybe the odd few. I should say 99.9% are auto
Same with BMW(yes even the Z4 is auto)
corolla, civic all auto.
camry, accord basically nearly every new car bigger than 1.8 litres here is an auto with NO OPTION for manual.
How bout that....
Damn i need to live somewhere else
It depends on what you want.
Do you want an involving drive? Where every limb are used? You want to drift? Like to heel and toe?
Get a manual.
And in most cases, manual is the fastest choice out there and more economical too.
But not anymore, If you just want to be the fastest, there is DSG or F1 based trans.
You want economy, CVT can do it too. Plus, if you're incompetent in choosing shift points, then manual is gonna be unefficient.
For manufacturers, they just do what the majority wants, simple as that.
In my country, no mercedes sold is manual(starting from the last 10 years or so) before that mahybe the odd few. I should say 99.9% are auto
Same with BMW(yes even the Z4 is auto)
corolla, civic all auto.
camry, accord basically nearly every new car bigger than 1.8 litres here is an auto with NO OPTION for manual.
How bout that....
Damn i need to live somewhere else
- 24,344
- Midlantic Area
- GTP_Duke
I'm not trying to be confrontational here, Doug, but I'm going to disagree 100%.
As I (and others) said during the whole "old Alfa" brouhaha, sometimes the drive is simply about the drive, not the performance figures or fuel economy or whatever. My wife's TSX has the best automatic transmission I've ever driven. It shifts smoothly and crisply; it never hunts around, and it anticipates when you're going to want a downshift during spirited driving, and it's always with you.
It's just simply not as involving and fun to drive. End of story.
There are lots of analogies outside of the automotive world.
Think of it like the difference between live, acoustic drums and a programmed drum machine. You can program a drum machine to out-drum a human percussionist any day of the week. You can sample acoustic drum sounds to give a warmer tone to the drum machine. You can even program it to vary the little rolls and fills between bars. Yet no matter how carefully and well it's done, electronic drumming just lacks the warm, involving, human feel of a real percussionist, even if it's technically far better than a human could ever play.
Or think of it like sailing. A motorboat will comprehensively kick a sailboat's ass in getting across the water... yet sailing is MUCH more fun, because the skipper is not simply pointing the boat at the opposite shore and nailing the throttle. You need to work the wind, maintain momentum, trim the sails and the balance and the tiller just so to get the most out of it.
Or consider bow hunting for deer instead of using a .30-06 with a 10x scope.
Or pretty much consider anything that's more rewarding to do yourself, instead of relying on some remote machine to do it for you... even IF the machine can do it better.
- 23,974
- It/It
- GTP_TheCracker
👍
- If you like to be involved in the driving process, buy a manual.
- If you see driving as a chore, and use a car only as a way of getting from A to B without walking or using the peasant wagon, buy an auto.
- If you think that the ability to change gear twice as quick as you currently do in a manual will shave precious 10ths of seconds off your daily commute, buy a semi-auto/DSG.
- 20,145
- Australia
- VIPERGTS01
Indeed, another example is airline pilots that choose to manually fly the aircrafts in good weather even though they have advanced autopilot systems they can employ to get the job done more efficiently.
Bingo.
I will also like to point out that although I prefer manual by a long shot, I don't always want to drive manual. Truth is I own both a Manual and a Automatic car, both I enjoy driving for different reasons.
