Engine Braking in GT Academy

[GTP_CargoRatt]

Hahahah, well bit extreme I have to admit but the fact is I play for the exitement and adrenaline and too much fiddling with details just eats all that away so this game suits my needs just fine, no need to have casulties to make it interesting

But yeah, personal preference and taste are things we don't want to depate too much, we all know how's that going to end up

For sure my friend, for sure. 👍 Just making a little humor, that's all.

 

[Stotty]

Using 1st lap as fastest lap ? Try the car and track on current GTA Rd 1 ( GTR Nismo at Silverstone GP ) same tire, but go online, use tire wear very fast, see if you can push the car as hard as you can in the actual GTA TT on 1st lap. Slide / slight drift now will not make the car faster or aggressive braking that turns the tire red will have bad effect on the tire wear level. My main concern is with the TT format itself ( no tire wear ).
Have you ever tried hot lapping or tuning/testing online with tire wear very fast ? I always use tire wear ( either normal or very fast ) when I am online.

Have you ever driven a real car on a track?

You seem to be under the impression that race drivers drive the car under the tyres limit and never slide the car... which just isn't true for the most part. Might be true for F1/LMP on very sticky tryres, and for some other cars with LOTS of downforce, but not for saloons. OK, they aren't doing big drifts (well, not deliberately), but a good driver will have the car constantly moving around on and slightly over the grip limit, particularly on corner entry to help the car in to the apex.

When I watch laps from the top 10 in this TT I see nothing unusual or unrealistic. There's no brake off oversteer in this car, and allowing the engine to bounce on the limiter in a low gear does not help braking - changing down to a lower gear within the rev limit does help rotation, but there's nothing 'wrong' with that.

When I had some track tuition years back, one of the 1st things my instructor told me was I wasn't using the brakes anywhere near hard enough. He encouraged me to stand on the middle pedal HARD in the initial phase of braking, getting the weight transferred quickly to the front whilst still travelling in a straight line, then gradually bleeding the pressure off as I began to turn in... coming from road cars, this was the single biggest tip I ever had to improving lap times on a track.

You do have to be smooth, but you also have to be aggressive to be fast.

 

[JerseyDriverSS]

Personally think the most smoothest and precise lap is normally at top spot and being that quick has a good chance of getting somewhere in the competition.

Your right i shouldn't say being smooth and precise will get you no where, but it does take a mix of both (smooth and sliding the car unrealistically) in my opinion to crack the top 32. The year motegi was the final round the year i made nationals there was no way to crack into the top 32 of the times without using a few GT driving techniques. Example last right turn before the start finish

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

Have you ever driven a real car on a track?

You seem to be under the impression that race drivers drive the car under the tyres limit and never slide the car... which just isn't true for the most part. Might be true for F1/LMP on very sticky tryres, and for some other cars with LOTS of downforce, but not for saloons. OK, they aren't doing big drifts (well, not deliberately), but a good driver will have the car constantly moving around on and slightly over the grip limit, particularly on corner entry to help the car in to the apex.

When I watch laps from the top 10 in this TT I see nothing unusual or unrealistic. There's no brake off oversteer in this car, and allowing the engine to bounce on the limiter in a low gear does not help braking - changing down to a lower gear within the rev limit does help rotation, but there's nothing 'wrong' with that.

When I had some track tuition years back, one of the 1st things my instructor told me was I wasn't using the brakes anywhere near hard enough. He encouraged me to stand on the middle pedal HARD in the initial phase of braking, getting the weight transferred quickly to the front whilst still travelling in a straight line, then gradually bleeding the pressure off as I began to turn in... coming from road cars, this was the single biggest tip I ever had to improving lap times on a track.

You do have to be smooth, but you also have to be aggressive to be fast.

It's funny how you have such impression on my suggestion, tire wear is not a big topic like ABS in GT I should also be clearer on the physics abuse, it was talked about a lot back in early GTA ( 2012 I think ), people complained about handbrake and cars sliding on exit actually going faster. I think some members here also make posts about the GTA physics allowing such driving on older GTA.

I have driven a lot of miles in GT6, and from a lot offline no tire wear test/tune laps, low speed exit with some wheelspin often do not carry penalty and this is mostly due to the tire model in GT6 that I find lacking. This is also the reason why LSD with low lock ( close to open ) can be exploited for quicker lap times. Tire wear lessened the effect IMO. Honestly, I don't really care if PD stick with no tire wear, I was only stating my thoughts. What surprises me is the reaction to tire wear on TT.

 

[Stotty]

I should also be clearer on the physics abuse, it was talked about a lot back in early GTA ( 2012 I think ), people complained about handbrake and cars sliding on exit actually going faster. I think some members here also make posts about the GTA physics allowing such driving on older GTA.

And you may see some of that again in this GTA, depending on what cars are used in later rounds.

The only reason you don't see drivers sliding the rear of the GTR in round 1 is because, as usual, it's crippled by the stock set up PD put on the cars... stupid amounts of positive rear toe and high LSD decel simply kills all the rotation the car should have.

If a race engineer sent a driver out in a car that handled like the GTR does in this TT he'd be straight back in the pits after 1 lap.

 

[MistaVega23]

Wasn't trail-braking a big issue last year? I remember reading on here that the top guys were nailing it out of La Source in pretty much a four-wheel drift, yet still setting the quickest times. I literally couldn't get my head around it....

Even so, I'm looking forward to setting up my DFGT this weekend and having a good couple of hours on it, even though it's 'Round 1' I'd like to put more effort in this year and see where it gets me.

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

And you may see some of that again in this GTA, depending on what cars are used in later rounds.

The only reason you don't see drivers sliding the rear of the GTR in round 1 is because, as usual, it's crippled by the stock set up PD put on the cars... stupid amounts of positive rear toe and high LSD decel simply kills all the rotation the car should have.

If a race engineer sent a driver out in a car that handled like the GTR does in this TT he'd be straight back in the pits after 1 lap.

PD stock setup always sucks If we have 370Z again, then maybe those slides will return

 

[OutlawQuadrnt]

If fuel and tyre wear were a factor of time trials all that would happen is keep lapping till the fuels down, pit for tyres run 5 laps and repeat. Simple.

Everyone cast your mind back to the final GT Academy on GT5, a GT6 demo at silverstone, anyone remember the 370z tyres?? Thats right, if you pushed too hard the tyres would heat up and stay bright orange for a whole lap,or more, forcing you to start again or just cruise a lap to let them cool down.

It was annoying that I had to restart after 3-4 laps but I was really looking forward to that tire model.

What in the world happened? Did it fall into the same black pit as the track creator?

 

[Stotty]

PD stock setup always sucks If we have 370Z again, then maybe those slides will return

They certainly do 👍

I think the only way you'll see it is with a MR car... almost impossible to get FR cars to rotate like that since they increased the stock rear toe from 0.20 to 0.60.

 

[Saidur_Ali]

Your right i shouldn't say being smooth and precise will get you no where, but it does take a mix of both (smooth and sliding the car unrealistically) in my opinion to crack the top 32. The year motegi was the final round the year i made nationals there was no way to crack into the top 32 of the times without using a few GT driving techniques. Example last right turn before the start finish

It's funny how you have such impression on my suggestion, tire wear is not a big topic like ABS in GT I should also be clearer on the physics abuse, it was talked about a lot back in early GTA ( 2012 I think ), people complained about handbrake and cars sliding on exit actually going faster. I think some members here also make posts about the GTA physics allowing such driving on older GTA.

I have driven a lot of miles in GT6, and from a lot offline no tire wear test/tune laps, low speed exit with some wheelspin often do not carry penalty and this is mostly due to the tire model in GT6 that I find lacking. This is also the reason why LSD with low lock ( close to open ) can be exploited for quicker lap times. Tire wear lessened the effect IMO. Honestly, I don't really care if PD stick with no tire wear, I was only stating my thoughts. What surprises me is the reaction to tire wear on TT.

Soon as 2012 is mentioned. Here is video of the fastest lap:



You can see how well for example the last turn how realstically it was done. Anyway main issue is with the driving physics. Personally for me, I drive more or less the same style on any other racing game - fast in, fast out. I have same approach but game rewards different levels of grip for the same action, GT you get extreme front end grip once you come off the brakes, other games you get a bit less but you try and still hit the same line. I mean the word unrealistically is used but how does one drive realistically if the car doesn't behave realistically in the first place...

 

[Glenalz81]

It was annoying that I had to restart after 3-4 laps but I was really looking forward to that tire model.

What in the world happened? Did it fall into the same black pit as the track creator?

Initially on GT6 that model was there, I remember 550pp Nurb Street being really tough on softs through the twisties with your racing softs feeling like sports hard and bright orange for multiple sectors, I can't remember which update changed it...remember the ridiculous tyre squealing?...maybe changed at the same time..

 

[JerseyDriverSS]

Soon as 2012 is mentioned. Here is video of the fastest lap:



I mean the word unrealistically is used but how does one drive realistically if the car doesn't behave realistically in the first place...

That pretty much answers your own question. You don't. And that video in 3rd person from 1.05 on you'd see its not as smooth as you may think.

 

[Saidur_Ali]

That pretty much answers your own question. You don't. And that video in 3rd person from 1.05 on you'd see its not as smooth as you may think.

The inputs are very smooth and precise, it is just how the car reacts on the limit.

 

[JerseyDriverSS]

The inputs are very smooth and precise, it is just how the car reacts on the limit.

I can see that no matter what you'll have a response for everything "because real driving simulator" so i'll just leave this thread. Besides i've had my 5 mins of fame and moved on. Why am i even here anyway.

And didn't that guy drive with a controller?

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

Soon as 2012 is mentioned. Here is video of the fastest lap:



You can see how well for example the last turn how realstically it was done. Anyway main issue is with the driving physics. Personally for me, I drive more or less the same style on any other racing game - fast in, fast out. I have same approach but game rewards different levels of grip for the same action, GT you get extreme front end grip once you come off the brakes, other games you get a bit less but you try and still hit the same line. I mean the word unrealistically is used but how does one drive realistically if the car doesn't behave realistically in the first place...

Tire wear was off for a start, that should be the first thing to change right ? It should have been on, any tire will degrade in reality, why not simulate that People drive like that because they can get away with it and it made them faster.

 

[Saidur_Ali]

I can see that no matter what you'll have a response for everything "because real driving simulator" so i'll just leave this thread. Besides i've had my 5 mins of fame and moved on. Why am i even here anyway.

And didn't that guy drive with a controller?

I am not saying car behaviour is realistic, driving inputs are realistic.

One of the worlds best sim racing drivers with a wheel.

Tire wear was off for a start, that should be the first thing to change right ? It should have been on, any tire will degrade in reality, why not simulate that People drive like that because they can get away with it and it made them faster.

One fast lap won't degrade the tyre too much to change driving style completely.

 

[JerseyDriverSS]

I am not saying car behaviour is realistic, driving inputs are realistic.

One of the worlds best sim racing drivers with a wheel.


One fast lap won't degrade the tyre too much to change driving style completely.

I must of been thinking of someone else that was super fast with a controller.

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

I am not saying car behaviour is realistic, driving inputs are realistic.

One of the worlds best sim racing drivers with a wheel.


One fast lap won't degrade the tyre too much to change driving style completely.

Have you tried a soft compound tire (CS/SS/RS) online with tire wear on very fast and try to set best time like you would on TT ? The 1st lap will be on cold tires, and grip level is low and the tire easily worn with too much load. Doing warm up lap won't change driving style by much, you will need to make sure the tire not overheated or go red and by the start of next lap, the all 4 tire should be in ideal temperature. The next few full bore lap will easily degrade the tire, on a long track like Silverstone GP it will be finding balance on which part of the track you will give it more beans and where you will be less aggressive. Braking and overloading the front tires will bring consequences now, and understeery car like NISMO GTR on Rd1 will make drivers strategize their entry on the low speed turn at Silverstone and be smooth as possible on the high speed curve.

For rough idea, I ran some cat and mouse online free run awhile ago in my fan club lobby, Lexus LFA replica 552HP, 1625kg, CS tire, very fast tire wear, at Motegi Road, and with track day pace ( just chasing another driver bumper to bumper ), in 8 laps, fuel tank was empty, and tires were around 40% at the rear and 50% front ( 1st lap was warm up lap and we were slowing down several time after the 3rd lap ). I also intentionally did some heavy slide on exit of slow corners when I chased the LFA in front me, even small wheelspin on less than 90% tire got me further away than the car in front ( when you spin the wheels and goes red, tire got worn and overall grip limit reduced even more than just when there's no tire wear which always at 100% except for grip reduction when red/overheated )

If it were solo run TT style, the tire would probably gone ( less than 30%, grip reduced substantially ) in 5 laps or less after warm up. My best lap was in 3rd lap ( 2nd lap after warm up ) at low 2:10s. A lap on long track like Motegi or Silverstone would degrade around 10% if really pushing it on soft compound. The optimum grip usually around 80-90% tire level.

PD could disable fuel consumption to make things simpler ( always full ), just tire wear is on. I understand if people don't like it with tire wear on, maybe PD thought about it before and didn't go with it because they want things easier for casuals, like the SRF seasonals

 

[Stotty]

Nothing wrong or strange about Ti-Tech's driving in that video... smooth steering inputs, using the brakes to contral the weight transfer and create rotation... perfect lap IMO.

 

[Glenalz81]

Have you tried a soft compound tire (CS/SS/RS) online with tire wear on very fast and try to set best time like you would on TT ?

There is a 100kg fuel deficit between online/offline and being online with tyre wear on/off so that accounts for around a second on a 2 minute lap.

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

There is a 100kg fuel deficit between online/offline and being online with tyre wear on/off so that accounts for around a second on a 2 minute lap.

I'm sorry could you explain what you mean. 100kg would be 135 L of fuel ( if using 0.74kg per L ), offline always have full fuel tank ( 100L I think ) and online with tire wear on, fuel gets consumed. If PD have tire wear on TT, PD could easily disable fuel consumption to make things simpler.

My intention with the quoted question was to find out how the driver would drive the car with degrading tires, and not comparing which one is quicker ( it does not concern me who will still be on top on the TT or how much time difference it will be )

 

[Stotty]

@Ridox2JZGTE

Not sure what point your making... what's the point in adding tyre wear to the competition? How would it change anything? The lap times might be slightly different, but the fastest drivers would still be the fastest drivers whatever the specifics of the rules.

 

[Saidur_Ali]

I must of been thinking of someone else that was super fast with a controller.

Maybe samurai_405, his lap I have linked below. Maybe you find it more realistic than the wheel lap due to more understeer with pad due to how the steering input works.

Link

Have you tried a soft compound tire (CS/SS/RS) online with tire wear on very fast and try to set best time like you would on TT ? The 1st lap will be on cold tires, and grip level is low and the tire easily worn with too much load. Doing warm up lap won't change driving style by much, you will need to make sure the tire not overheated or go red and by the start of next lap, the all 4 tire should be in ideal temperature. The next few full bore lap will easily degrade the tire, on a long track like Silverstone GP it will be finding balance on which part of the track you will give it more beans and where you will be less aggressive. Braking and overloading the front tires will bring consequences now, and understeery car like NISMO GTR on Rd1 will make drivers strategize their entry on the low speed turn at Silverstone and be smooth as possible on the high speed curve.

For rough idea, I ran some cat and mouse online free run awhile ago in my fan club lobby, Lexus LFA replica 552HP, 1625kg, CS tire, very fast tire wear, at Motegi Road, and with track day pace ( just chasing another driver bumper to bumper ), in 8 laps, fuel tank was empty, and tires were around 40% at the rear and 50% front ( 1st lap was warm up lap and we were slowing down several time after the 3rd lap ). I also intentionally did some heavy slide on exit of slow corners when I chased the LFA in front me, even small wheelspin on less than 90% tire got me further away than the car in front ( when you spin the wheels and goes red, tire got worn and overall grip limit reduced even more than just when there's no tire wear which always at 100% except for grip reduction when red/overheated )

If it were solo run TT style, the tire would probably gone ( less than 30%, grip reduced substantially ) in 5 laps or less after warm up. My best lap was in 3rd lap ( 2nd lap after warm up ) at low 2:10s. A lap on long track like Motegi or Silverstone would degrade around 10% if really pushing it on soft compound. The optimum grip usually around 80-90% tire level.

PD could disable fuel consumption to make things simpler ( always full ), just tire wear is on. I understand if people don't like it with tire wear on, maybe PD thought about it before and didn't go with it because they want things easier for casuals, like the SRF seasonals

Like I said before, haven't played online mode on GT6 but am interested to see the difference. I guess first lap will be fastest and fuel might have no effect unless on empty for obvious reasons. Will be pleasantly surprised if they have modelled such things.

 

[Johnnypenso]

Using 1st lap as fastest lap ? Try the car and track on current GTA Rd 1 ( GTR Nismo at Silverstone GP ) same tire, but go online, use tire wear very fast, see if you can push the car as hard as you can in the actual GTA TT on 1st lap. Slide / slight drift now will not make the car faster or aggressive braking that turns the tire red will have bad effect on the tire wear level. My main concern is with the TT format itself ( no tire wear ).
Have you ever tried hot lapping or tuning/testing online with tire wear very fast ? I always use tire wear ( either normal or very fast ) when I am online.

I have also tested SLS AMG GT3 ( building a online race tune for at least one pit stop - 30 minutes race ) - tune posted in my garage, on RS tire and tire wear very fast, and my best lap usually around 3rd or 4th lap of a fresh tire ( Red Bull Ring ) You have to consider fuel level as well This is what makes TT with tire wear much more fun IMO.

Turning tire wear on or off shouldn't affect how the tires heat up or retain heat though. That's a game effect not a real life effect. It gets back to a better, more complex tire model, and the ability of the tires to absorb, retain and shed heat, it's effects on grip levels, and altering your driving style to maximize the resulting grip. This should be possible with or without tire wear. All adding tire wear should do in a sim is shorten your stints to the length that grip is maximized which to me isn't any fun. You can still have all the elements of tire dynamics in the game and managing grip through your driving style, independent of tire wear, if those elements are there to begin with.

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

@Ridox2JZGTE

Not sure what point your making... what's the point in adding tyre wear to the competition? How would it change anything? The lap times might be slightly different, but the fastest drivers would still be the fastest drivers whatever the specifics of the rules.

My point has nothing to do with who will be the fastest or why some are slower. I only wanted PD to include more realism aspect in TT, people complained there's no tire wear option in offline races and it's fine with TT having no tire wear ? We should have love to have tire wear in TT, why only limit it on online mode ?

Maybe samurai_405, his lap I have linked below. Maybe you find it more realistic than the wheel lap due to more understeer with pad due to how the steering input works.

Link


Like I said before, haven't played online mode on GT6 but am interested to see the difference. I guess first lap will be fastest and fuel might have no effect unless on empty for obvious reasons. Will be pleasantly surprised if they have modelled such things.

Once again, try go online and very fast tire wear on soft compound using the Rd 1 car/track/tire and let me know me what you guys think is different than without tire wear ( also online ) in the way you have to drive to get best time ( strategy )

Turning tire wear on or off shouldn't affect how the tires heat up or retain heat though. That's a game effect not a real life effect. It gets back to a better, more complex tire model, and the ability of the tires to absorb, retain and shed heat, it's effects on grip levels, and altering your driving style to maximize the resulting grip. This should be possible with or without tire wear. All adding tire wear should do in a sim is shorten your stints to the length that grip is maximized which to me isn't any fun. You can still have all the elements of tire dynamics in the game and managing grip through your driving style, independent of tire wear, if those elements are there to begin with.

Where do you get the impression of tire wear affecting how tire heats work ? They should work together, why only want to have the heat but no wear and tear ? Don't you always want more realism in game that tries to simulate reality ?

Tire heat simulation is the same with or without tire wear, they get hotter as you push harder, they cool down as you ease on the car, but with tire wear, the grip dynamics is a whole different animal. Warmer tires give more grip but as you need to push it to get warm, it also easily gets shredded, while cold tires are not.

So now tire wear is no fun ? Will you have no tire wear in PC sim when doing TT or race ?

I am confused why tire wear on TT is not welcomed idea when we should be wanting it as a basic feature in any driving simulation.

 

[Johnnypenso]

Where do you get the impression of tire wear affecting how tire heats work ? They should work together, why only want to have the heat but no wear and tear ? Don't you always want more realism in game that tries to simulate reality ?

Tire heat simulation is the same with or without tire wear, they get hotter as you push harder, they cool down as you ease on the car, but with tire wear, the grip dynamics is a whole different animal. Warmer tires give more grip but as you need to push it to get warm, it also easily gets shredded, while cold tires are not.

So now tire wear is no fun ? Will you have no tire wear in PC sim when doing TT or race ?

I am confused why tire wear on TT is not welcomed idea when we should be wanting it as a basic feature in any driving simulation.

You're the one saying tire dynamics change when tire wear is on vs. tire wear off. I'm saying that that is a game flaw and that you shouldn't have to turn tire wear on to get better tire dynamics. All that should change with tire wear on is tire wear. Tires should accumulate and dissapate heat, increase and decrease grip with that heat the same whether tire wear is on or off. I understand you want better tire dynamics in a TT and so do I, I want them in the whole game, I just think that in a TT, tire wear serves no purpose other than to frustrate players by shortening runs to a couple of hot laps before tire wear sets in and adds nothing to the event if tire dynamics can be the same with and without tire wear. At least the way GT structures TT's, that's how it would play out.

What you want are better tire dynamics. You shouldn't have to turn tire wear on to get them. If you have to turn tire wear on to get them, it's not worth it IMO.

AC gives you the choice for tire wear on or off, at least with RSR Live Timing. The difference is you can't get a "PRO" ranking with tire wear off. Pretty much all the fast guys want a pro ranking so the way I set times is to practice with tire wear off until I get comfortable with the combination, then turn on tire wear for my run at the PRO ranking. It's quite exciting actually, much like a real qualifying session, where you get an out lap to get the tires up to temperature (I monitor temps through a wi-fi app on an Android tablet) and then you generally get 2 laps on most tracks before the tires go off enough that you can't match your fastest times anymore. If you want another run you pit for fresh tires, another outlap, rinse and repeat. Turns it into a real event. Can't speak for other sims I don't know what they do. I'll find out about PCars soon

 

[gtpcaine]

Its obvious isn't it... It has an exhaust blown diffuser and keeping the rpm up with no 'drive' improves rear stability....

I miss my dfgt and its sticky downshift paddle allowing me to downshift twice per click!

I'll step out and leave this to discussion to some more sensible answers now.

 

[Glenalz81]

I'm sorry could you explain what you mean. 100kg would be 135 L of fuel ( if using 0.74kg per L ), offline always have full fuel tank ( 100L I think ) and online with tire wear on, fuel gets consumed. If PD have tire wear on TT, PD could easily disable fuel consumption to make things simpler.

My intention with the quoted question was to find out how the driver would drive the car with degrading tires, and not comparing which one is quicker ( it does not concern me who will still be on top on the TT or how much time difference it will be )

Ok, without being anal with the numbers, get a car, pick a track in free run or TT set a time, then go online, same car and track turn tyre wear on, run your car till the fuel is nearly empty put fresh rubber on and set a time, there will be next to no difference in the lap time. Real grip for both runs.

 

[FRoSTeD]

I personally don't like the idea of having to use techniques that seem counter-intuitive in the world of real racing to achieve a quick lap time, but if that's what it takes and it's allowed, what can you do? I don't think these are minor issues to complain about either. I doubt many drivers in GT6 use these techniques on a regular basis, so it kind of throws a wrench into your mindset. The hardest part for me isn't even using them, it's simply remembering to do so.

There's time for PD to adjust the mechanics before the next three rounds are opened up. Hopefully they're paying attention and can adjust accordingly, at least that's what I hope will happen. If not, you can always look at it as another part of becoming the flexible driver you're going to have to be to become a GT Academy champ.

 

[azrilnazli]

The just want to see you efforts exploiting everything in the game to be the fastest

Just in real race world, they will give a slow Ford Gt3 to compete with Mclaren and Z4, what you can do to exploit the car potentials above its limit.