The thing is....in real life....you have to manage the vehicles health to achieve this. I've come from building cars and racing them in real life to GT6 to keep up my skills during vehicle upgrades (doing engine rebuild and a new AEM infinity ecu/mispec harness) to say it's totally okay to drop the engine from 5th to 2nd at 120mph and watch rhe revs bouncing like that.....and hyper/micro pulling the ebrake is not something you can "adapt to in real life" it will destroy your vehicle more than likely on the first try...either your diff, trans, engine clutch or flywheel will explode that can even kill you. the driving technique im seeing by thr fastest driver on round 1 as of right now is the equivalent of watching COD/counterstrike 360 noscope headshot twitch fps loophole/developed skills that are beyond the real of reality. They are no doubt fast as all get-out....but I have 0 question this needs to be addressed the act of a player "adapting " to arcade tactics does not translate to real world adaptability on track...
Engine Braking in GT Academy
- Thread starter hankolerd
- 171 comments
- 10,563 views
The ebrake isn't all too bad as the French guy in first on round one pulled it clean and concise. ....granted....in real life a gtr wouldn't have even one bit of that level of lock up....**** my FD irl on 275wide tires which aren't even as grippy as the SS tires of which I assume are A050/pilot sport cups and it can barely get her to rotate with that level lock up.....the other guys doing the hyper micro ebrake pulling is a sham and absurd and while I don't knock them for exploiting the available assets as a "gamer" would PD should solve this...on the engine brake just do a disqualify exactly as if you hit the cones! IRL the cars don't actually LET you force downshift like this....the car's transmission computer monitors wheel speed, engine speed and calculates what speed and rpm max it will let you downshift at....so it doesn't kill itself.....the cone disqualify imo is the easiest without really jacking with the game engine dramatically
- 11,301
- Sweden
- eran0004
Engine braking myth busted!
I just had a look at the telemetry of the top time from the 1st time trial and although he does shift down to 1st gear at very high speed he's not actually getting any engine braking at all.
That is because of the way that the clutch and shifting works in GT6. When you shift, the clutch is automatically disengaged to disconnect the engine from the gearbox. When the clutch is engaged again after the shift the accelerator is automatically blipped to make sure that the engine rpm matches the gearbox rpm, so it's not just auto-clutch but also auto-accelerator.
An additional aspect of the clutch is that it appears to be used to prevent the engine revs from going off the charts, so when the tachometer bounces off the rev limiter when you shift down to a much too low gear it's actually the clutch going engaged - disengaged - engaged - disengaged really quickly. This effect, coupled with the way that gear shifts works, means that when the rpm goes above the engine's limit, the clutch is disengaged so that the engine can slow down. But then when the clutch is engaged again, the accelerator is triggered to bring the engine rpm up to par with the gearbox.
So at high rpm you don't get any engine braking because the clutch is engaged, and when the rpm drops and the clutch disengages you don't get any engine braking because the accelerator is triggered.
If you look at the telemetry from the lap I mentioned at the beginning, you'll see that during the periods when the rev limiter is bouncing, the accelerator is actually indicating full throttle.
I did a test as well, I accelerated a car to high speeds and checked how fast it would slow down if I shifted down to a too low gear, compared to if I stayed in the current gear. When I stayed in the current gear the car slowed down much faster, indicating that I got way more engine braking than when I shifted down to a too low gear and let the tachometer bounce.
So although the player may think that letting the rev limiter bounce like that gives him some kind of advantage, it's actually not doing anything good at all for him. In fact, all it does is to make him used to a driving style that could be a serious issue for him if he ever moves on to driving real race cars, where there is no auto-clutch and no auto-accelerator.
Edit: Compared his lap to my lap, and although I'm way slower around the track I'm actually braking slightly faster than he is, by keeping the car in an appropriate gear. Why might that be? Perhaps because by doing that I'm actually getting some engine braking, while his engine braking is lost in an auto-clutch & throttle-blip mayhem.
The only car I've been able to get massive amounts of engine braking from by shifting down to a too low gear is the Subaru 360, with a customized gearbox set as low as it can possibly be. By shifting down from 4th gear at about 30 km/h to 1st gear (with a top speed of about 5 km/h) the braking force became so strong that it overpowered the traction from the tyres and caused the wheels to lock. It's actually pretty fun
I just had a look at the telemetry of the top time from the 1st time trial and although he does shift down to 1st gear at very high speed he's not actually getting any engine braking at all.
That is because of the way that the clutch and shifting works in GT6. When you shift, the clutch is automatically disengaged to disconnect the engine from the gearbox. When the clutch is engaged again after the shift the accelerator is automatically blipped to make sure that the engine rpm matches the gearbox rpm, so it's not just auto-clutch but also auto-accelerator.
An additional aspect of the clutch is that it appears to be used to prevent the engine revs from going off the charts, so when the tachometer bounces off the rev limiter when you shift down to a much too low gear it's actually the clutch going engaged - disengaged - engaged - disengaged really quickly. This effect, coupled with the way that gear shifts works, means that when the rpm goes above the engine's limit, the clutch is disengaged so that the engine can slow down. But then when the clutch is engaged again, the accelerator is triggered to bring the engine rpm up to par with the gearbox.
So at high rpm you don't get any engine braking because the clutch is engaged, and when the rpm drops and the clutch disengages you don't get any engine braking because the accelerator is triggered.
If you look at the telemetry from the lap I mentioned at the beginning, you'll see that during the periods when the rev limiter is bouncing, the accelerator is actually indicating full throttle.
I did a test as well, I accelerated a car to high speeds and checked how fast it would slow down if I shifted down to a too low gear, compared to if I stayed in the current gear. When I stayed in the current gear the car slowed down much faster, indicating that I got way more engine braking than when I shifted down to a too low gear and let the tachometer bounce.
So although the player may think that letting the rev limiter bounce like that gives him some kind of advantage, it's actually not doing anything good at all for him. In fact, all it does is to make him used to a driving style that could be a serious issue for him if he ever moves on to driving real race cars, where there is no auto-clutch and no auto-accelerator.
Edit: Compared his lap to my lap, and although I'm way slower around the track I'm actually braking slightly faster than he is, by keeping the car in an appropriate gear. Why might that be? Perhaps because by doing that I'm actually getting some engine braking, while his engine braking is lost in an auto-clutch & throttle-blip mayhem.
The only car I've been able to get massive amounts of engine braking from by shifting down to a too low gear is the Subaru 360, with a customized gearbox set as low as it can possibly be. By shifting down from 4th gear at about 30 km/h to 1st gear (with a top speed of about 5 km/h) the braking force became so strong that it overpowered the traction from the tyres and caused the wheels to lock. It's actually pretty fun
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- 1,442
- Scotland
- Glen-Alz-81
Not sure if the intention is to slow down faster, more about timing and avoiding understeer keeping maximum apex speed, maybe leaving the car in a lower gear induces understeer and unwanted engine braking and effectively what he's doing is using neutral and weight shift to counteract that.
NO REASEARCH DONE
Just a thought.
NO REASEARCH DONE
Just a thought.
- 11,207
- Adrian, Mich.
- cargorat323
- CargoRatt
Not sure if the intention is to slow down faster, more about timing and avoiding understeer keeping maximum apex speed, maybe leaving the car in a lower gear induces understeer and unwanted engine braking and effectively what he's doing is using neutral and weight shift to counteract that.
NO REASEARCH DONE
Just a thought.
Yep, I tend to agree with you here. Its more about weight shift and getting this big, heavy pig to rotate. The technique really has nothing to do about slowing down any faster, but more about car rotation/turn in. I really didn't see any myth that needed to be busted here.
For sure unrealistic downshift pattern is seemingly giving an apex advantage that cannot be matched without. Exit speed into the second corner (the uphill left hander) you understeer trying to take it like you would in real life...as fast as he did with the same clipping point. I can't explain the GT physics involved but it clearly assists on the speed catried through the corner exit....I hope it's addressed sooner than later but knowing GT it's probably gonna be on dwaf ears.
- 6
- Belgium
- FPM8-56NF-TKP3
Well, if you use automatic then you got the bad luck syndrome.
- 11,301
- Sweden
- eran0004
Not sure if the intention is to slow down faster, more about timing and avoiding understeer keeping maximum apex speed, maybe leaving the car in a lower gear induces understeer and unwanted engine braking and effectively what he's doing is using neutral and weight shift to counteract that.
NO REASEARCH DONE
Just a thought.
Well, I suppose it can be effectively used as a substitute for a clutch, to make sure there's no drive or braking on the front wheels.
Yep, I tend to agree with you here. Its more about weight shift and getting this big, heavy pig to rotate. The technique really has nothing to do about slowing down any faster, but more about car rotation/turn in. I really didn't see any myth that needed to be busted here.
The myth is that it provide engine braking. That's what's busted.
Gtr doesn't have a clutch pedal.....so either way....coupled with the cars ecu inability to actually behave this way on rapid highs speed downshifts you couldn't make a gtr do such a thing...granted this cat in the round 1 number one uses the whole track like a boss I'd like to see it driven without the arcade tactics and give me a feel for what's truly capable/achievable irl....
- 11,207
- Adrian, Mich.
- cargorat323
- CargoRatt
And, as I said, I don't think people were using it for that purpose.....to get the car to slow down quicker. More like using it to get better weight transfer for better turn in. Notice that the guys that use that method are able to get on the gas quicker because the car had better rotation using that method, not so much because they were able to slow any quicker. I too use this method as it does indeed aid in the rotation of the car, but I'm just not very consistent with it. You notice that hardly anyone is using that method in this round. That's because this car rotates into the corner a lot better therefore that technique is really not need here. At any rate, kudos to you on your research. 👍
- 11,301
- Sweden
- eran0004
And I didn't say it was your myth that I busted.
I can't see how weight transfer would have anything to do with it. Where would that weight transfer come from? It's more likely that it strips the front tyres of any engine braking so that they provide more grip for cornering.
Also, if it was a case of weight transfer it would have some use in the current round as well. I think the reason that it's not being used in this round is because the car we're using now is rear-wheel drive, so engine braking has no effect on the front tyres.
- 11,207
- Adrian, Mich.
- cargorat323
- CargoRatt
Good Lord, where did you come up with that?
I never said it was my myth. What I meant was that I really didn't see any myth to be busted here, but whatever. 
All I'm saying in regards to the weight transfer is with PD's backwards ass physics, using this method seems to help the car to rotate, for whatever reason. Sometimes I don't really have an explanation for some of the things I do 
, I just go with what works at the time. I tend to try and not to over think things here as far as PD goes, I already have enough Grey hair. I just experiment and go with what works, no research needed really. Again though, kudos to you on your research. 
@Glenalz81 Yea, I didn't really get that either but I really don't feel like explaining the whole thing out for him. By all means though, be my guest.
- 3,359
- California
- PumpinNumbies
Good Lord, where did you come up with that?
Come on Cargo. You read the title, you read the OP, you posted multiple times on the first page. The entire thread was created because someone believed that the fast guys are exploiting engine braking. Not once in that first page did you dispute that's what the downshifts were used for.
To now claim there was no myth to be busted, despite the fact that this entire thread was created BECAUSE of that myth...
P.S. When did you become an Alien! I feel so slow when I come back to GT6 after long breaks.
- 11,207
- Adrian, Mich.
- cargorat323
- CargoRatt
Come on Cargo. You read the title, you read the OP, you posted multiple times on the first page. The entire thread was created because someone believed that the fast guys are exploiting engine braking. Not once in that first page did you dispute that's what the downshifts were used for.
To now claim there was no myth to be busted, despite the fact that this entire thread was created BECAUSE of that myth...
P.S. When did you become an Alien! I feel so slow when I come back to GT6 after long breaks.
Engine braking: Its just a general term as far as I'm concerned and I used it (tried to anyways
) for the reasons I stated: better weight transfer for better car rotation, not for better braking. The only thing I'm disputing here is the reasons/benefits for using it, that's all.And by all means, where do you get that I said I was an Alien out of any of that.
I have never claimed to be an Alien at all, matter of fact, I'm far from it.Nice to see you back around btw. 👍
- 3,359
- California
- PumpinNumbies
And by all means, where do you get that I said I was an Alien out of any of that.
Nice to see you back around btw. 👍
The Alien is from the GTAcedemy. I saw that lap time! Over a second ahead of me. All my friends that I use to beat are murdering me now.
What's considered fast without using arcade techniques?
- 3,359
- California
- PumpinNumbies
I have no clue, I just came back for the Academy while I wait for Project Cars to be released, I'm only running 1.24.5xx and I don't exploit anything. (Not because I'm moral, but because I'm not good enough to do it) I know for a fact better drivers than me can cut off a lot more time, while still realistically driving the car, so I'd have to assume 1.23 flat is 'legitimately fast'. People in the low 1.22s are likely doing things they couldn't replicate in real life. but I'm honestly taking a shot in the dark.
Gotcha alright thanks, what about round one times?
- 11,207
- Adrian, Mich.
- cargorat323
- CargoRatt
Thanks for the compliment but I'm far from being an Alien. I'm sure with a bit more time behind the wheel, you'll have no problems surpassing me. I think its quite obvious why I'm that far ahead of you. I've been playing this game non-stop since the release of GT5 whereas you are just coming back from a long hiatus. Again, thanks for the compliment but save the Alien status for those who truly deserve it. I have a long ways to go.
- 11,301
- Sweden
- eran0004
No you're not. It's: Where would the weight transfer come from.
But by all means, do expand on your weight transfer theory because it will be interesting to hear if there's anything to it.
What happens with the weight transfer when you bounce the revs?
How come it's used in the 4wd car but not in the rwd car?
Good Lord, where did you come up with that?
Here is the myth (from the OP):
"it seems quite a few of them use an engine braking technique of throwing the car into a very low gear, say from 5th to 2nd at ~120mph, and just let the engine bounce off redline to help get some extra braking force"
@Glenalz81 Yea, I didn't really get that either but I really don't feel like explaining the whole thing out for him. By all means though, be my guest.
You mean that you know, but you don't want to tell me?
Engine braking: Its just a general term as far as I'm concerned and I used it (tried to anyways
It's better to call it rev bouncing, because that is what's being done. The engine braking involved here is minimal (and that currently seems to be the reason why they do it: not to get engine braking but to get rid of it).
- 514
- scunthorpe
- rclark83
Now try this but when your banging down the gears leave some throttle on aswel and watch how quick you slow down then...Engine braking myth busted!
I just had a look at the telemetry of the top time from the 1st time trial and although he does shift down to 1st gear at very high speed he's not actually getting any engine braking at all.
That is because of the way that the clutch and shifting works in GT6. When you shift, the clutch is automatically disengaged to disconnect the engine from the gearbox. When the clutch is engaged again after the shift the accelerator is automatically blipped to make sure that the engine rpm matches the gearbox rpm, so it's not just auto-clutch but also auto-accelerator.
An additional aspect of the clutch is that it appears to be used to prevent the engine revs from going off the charts, so when the tachometer bounces off the rev limiter when you shift down to a much too low gear it's actually the clutch going engaged - disengaged - engaged - disengaged really quickly. This effect, coupled with the way that gear shifts works, means that when the rpm goes above the engine's limit, the clutch is disengaged so that the engine can slow down. But then when the clutch is engaged again, the accelerator is triggered to bring the engine rpm up to par with the gearbox.
So at high rpm you don't get any engine braking because the clutch is engaged, and when the rpm drops and the clutch disengages you don't get any engine braking because the accelerator is triggered.
If you look at the telemetry from the lap I mentioned at the beginning, you'll see that during the periods when the rev limiter is bouncing, the accelerator is actually indicating full throttle.
I did a test as well, I accelerated a car to high speeds and checked how fast it would slow down if I shifted down to a too low gear, compared to if I stayed in the current gear. When I stayed in the current gear the car slowed down much faster, indicating that I got way more engine braking than when I shifted down to a too low gear and let the tachometer bounce.
So although the player may think that letting the rev limiter bounce like that gives him some kind of advantage, it's actually not doing anything good at all for him. In fact, all it does is to make him used to a driving style that could be a serious issue for him if he ever moves on to driving real race cars, where there is no auto-clutch and no auto-accelerator.
Edit: Compared his lap to my lap, and although I'm way slower around the track I'm actually braking slightly faster than he is, by keeping the car in an appropriate gear. Why might that be? Perhaps because by doing that I'm actually getting some engine braking, while his engine braking is lost in an auto-clutch & throttle-blip mayhem.
The only car I've been able to get massive amounts of engine braking from by shifting down to a too low gear is the Subaru 360, with a customized gearbox set as low as it can possibly be. By shifting down from 4th gear at about 30 km/h to 1st gear (with a top speed of about 5 km/h) the braking force became so strong that it overpowered the traction from the tyres and caused the wheels to lock. It's actually pretty fun
. Not so much on rd 2 but round 1 is a massive difference... Because of 4wd id imagine the tiny bit of throttle stops the fronts locking this keeping the weight over the front wheels for much better turn in and rotation.
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The bottom line is this "adaptation" is impossible to replicate irl and in bad spirit of racing and motorsports. Arcade Rev-Bouncing should be putting all the people who actually care about real racing in an uproar. I spoke to amother real life driver colleague of mine and explained to him this conversation and he started laughing hysterically. It's soo absurd that in effect something should have be done about this for this even to be taken seriously its just as bad as wall riding and clipping etc you have train you self to drive in a Manor that goes against rules and logic that you would have in the real world...
- 514
- scunthorpe
- rclark83
To be honest everybody that does it will have set a time without aswell. Its just faster on the game to do this. if you want a top time.. which is what gta is all about you have to join what the top guys are doing. Thats just the way it is. Also nobody who does this engine braking in the game would even try it in real life. We know what would happen. we just want a faster time and that is how to get it.
- 52
- Swansea, UK
- MistaVega23
Just be confident in the knowledge that if you qualify in round 4 and thus make it through to race camp by driving 'properly', the guys using these 'tricks' will stand out like a sore thumb and suck very badly IRL. In my opinion, anyway!
- 514
- scunthorpe
- rclark83
I was in the top 6 in real driving last year at uk finals so got to say imo not true. people use this on the game only. Switch to reality when actually driving a car.
I guess rclark said It...as actually having been to the real driving part...arcade tactics are kinda not in the spirit of the sport BUT while they are available I understand you use all the assets you have.....my point is to stop all arcade loopholes in a driving simulator where career's and futures can be on the line...
- 52
- Swansea, UK
- MistaVega23
Apologies - what I meant was the people doing it in the game won't be able to replicate it IRL, so will suffer compared to the 'true' drivers out there. Whether that's accurate or not, I have no idea. But I wish PD could tinker it towards real-life physics so we'd get a true reflection.
However, as others have said, it is what it is.
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