Engine Swap / Drivetrain Swap

[ICEMAN_ZIDANE]

we will have more than 1000 cars (you know gt4 and you know how hard and long it is to have all cars) i think you will find the perfect car for you

the only way is to drive a car with swaped parts is if PD do that,i said it before you have to change the whole car and that can do only PD
but i dont think that PD will do that and that is not the work of PD

 

[analog]

JDMKING13 ,Brainhulk,analog

i hope you know what i wanted to say now i will try it to explain it in a more detailed way (i hope i can XD)

yes you are right in real life you can find cars whith swaped engine or anything like this but this cars has nothing to do with the standard version of the car
example:Brabus,a Brabus Bullit has nothing to do with a normal C Class,the tuners need much time to do that (because they create a "new" car,at the end they had need to change everything at the car because if you put a 750ps engine in it than you have to change everything else too)and its very hard i think
what i want to say is that you can swap things but then you have to do it in a professionell way (like the Bullit example)you cant take a normal C Class in gt5 and put a 750ps engine in it than its unreal because you have to change everything like Brabus but you cant change the whole car in a game and because that the game will be unreal like forza or anything like this

I agree that you have to modify the entire car to cope with an enormous increase in power, but this is also the case when you tune the standard engine to an enormous power hike ( both in real life as well as in GT ) and as most who've played Forza ( I haven't got experience playing this game ) seem to be saying that it is incorrectly or unrealistically implemented in that game, not something I would expect from PD ( they wouldn't add a feature which suddenly turned it into an arcade ).
To change a car fundamentally yourself in a game is always easier than in real life ofcourse as it's just clicking certain options which the game calculates for you, doesn't make it any less a sim-experience ( as in gameplay ) however.
A fully tuned and set-up car in GT has as much in common with the standard car than the Brabus Bullit has with a C-class.

 

[Aloha62_2]

JDMKING13 ,Brainhulk,analog

i hope you know what i wanted to say now i will try it to explain it in a more detailed way (i hope i can XD)

yes you are right in real life you can find cars whith swaped engine or anything like this but this cars has nothing to do with the standard version of the car
example:Brabus,a Brabus Bullit has nothing to do with a normal C Class,the tuners need much time to do that (because they create a "new" car,at the end they had need to change everything at the car because if you put a 750ps engine in it than you have to change everything else too)and its very hard i think
what i want to say is that you can swap things but then you have to do it in a professionell way (like the Bullit example)you cant take a normal C Class in gt5 and put a 750ps engine in it than its unreal because you have to change everything like Brabus but you cant change the whole car in a game and because that the game will be unreal like forza or anything like this

your talking about a total conversion using little but the shell and chassis not really the same as a engine swap.

i really cant understand folk who say it isnt GT's philosphy, since GT1 we have been able to tune cars in order to almost quadraple power output with little or no drawbacks. This does not seem to be that different thats if GT even has a philosophy.

Also 'heritage'? the only heritage GT has is small fields and elevator music.

 

[Dan_]

Hmm, I'm too lazy to read through all this thread...so here's my 2 cents:

Frankly, I never experienced the drivetrain swaps in Forza mostly because I've played the game only once, so my opinion is based on facts and GT related argumentation.

Engine swaps? It might be okay, it's doable, everything depends on little details but adaptions can be made until a certain extent, so it's doable and would be fun. Drivetrain swaps? That's far more complicated, there's many exotic cars in which you have many things that make a drivetrain swap impossible, for example a venturi tunnel. However, it might be possible for most of the cars.

My point is, what's the fun in completely switching the drivetrain and engine of one car? This is like taking the heart and soul from a musician. Each car has it's own character, and the engine and drivetrain are great contributors to form this "character", they provide sound, motion, acceleration and speed.
They regulate the behaviour of a car, can you imagine a AWD Ford GT?? Impossible, ridiculous, then suddenly you made a drivetrain swap and all that lif-off oversteer went away, all the effort put to tame a beastly car can be replaced by a simple car modification, where's the GT experience in this? The same apply to engine swaps, ruin the characteristics of most cars. If you change the engine of a Ginetta for example, it won't be a Ginetta G4 after that, it will be a <insertyournamehere> G4, a custom model.

And frankly, implementing this in a "GT-way" would demand a lot of effort, they would want to perfect this feature and then, study CAD models to see the physical constraints of the engine bay, how's the underneath structure of a car, and many other details. Otherwise, it would be half-implemented, lame under every aspect.

I respectfully disagree with the proposition, but this is just my opinion, if this feature is present of the game, I will simply ignore it.

 

[SavageEvil]

I can go for engine swaps as long as they reflect real world application, but driveline is something that cannot be done to the majority of vehicles out today without some serious rearranging of components like transmission position and engine placement. It's all the rage in FM3, all sorts of cars can become AWD, and make things worse the performance index makes tuning a car to match a chore, RWD cars have to work pretty hard to beat an AWD of equal skill.

Keep it to engine swaps and from AWD to RWD since this is about racing, and only time I've seen AWD used for racing is rally. This should keep the PI easier to manage and also allow for hp limited races, which I miss from GT2.

 

[analog]

My point is, what's the fun in completely switching the drivetrain and engine of one car? This is like taking the heart and soul from a musician. Each car has it's own character, and the engine and drivetrain are great contributors to form this "character", they provide sound, motion, acceleration and speed.

Maybe, but you could also see it as remixing a song, adding other aspects which could be both disastrous to some but great to others, personally I find it an interesting option but could do without as mentioned before, and my guess is it won't be included.

The same apply to engine swaps, ruin the characteristics of most cars. If you change the engine of a Ginetta for example, it won't be a Ginetta G4 after that, it will be a <insertyournamehere> G4, a custom model.

Well the Ginetta, being a kitcar most of the time, has always had different types of engines by different manufacturers ( although mostly Ford ) and although I really love that car the engine isn't the defining aspect of the G4 ( probably debatable, but I'd reckon it isn't like the Boxer-6 of a 911 for instance ).
In short, everyone seems devided not just on whether some sort of engine swap should be included but also how it should be implemented and for all different reasons it seems.
Thankfully PD is in charge.....

 

[Aloha62_2]

If you change the engine of a Ginetta for example, it won't be a Ginetta G4 after that, it will be a <insertyournamehere> G4, a custom model.


.

Not the best example there mate the g4 and g20 have run with whole hosts of different engines, i have seen two g4's one had a austin a-series 1.1 twin carb and the other a much newer 98 ford zetec 16v. i believe pinto engines were pretty common too.

 

[Metfanant]

I think Forza does a fairly decent job of this....BUT...they give WAY too much of advantage to AWD cars in that game....that part of their game is just plain broken...if PD can't find a way to do it right...then id prefer just the engine swaps...

 

[SuperShouden]

Viper V10 Powered AWD Neon BABY! WOO!

Also, a lot of Forza is broken has been broken for a while. Their new rollover engine is taken from NFS3 or something. (I've seen videos of the classic tail gate stand in Forza...been a while since I've seen that.) But, it IS Microsoft, so no one is expecting something that works 100%. I mean Forza 2 caused the 360 to crash in some cases. (regardless of Turn10 and MS denying it. But it is a bit strange to have a slew of RRoD cases immediately following the release of the game and MS's almost instant announcement that they'd be extending the RRoD warranty.)

Back to GT5. I would LOVE to see both engine and drivetrain swaps in GT5. I would rather it be a bit more extensive than what was in FM2 and 3, though. I think it'd be cool to maybe pick an engine from the parent company and then simply decide what drive train you want and maybe where to. So like with the Neon: you could choose from the Standard I4, The V6, the normal V8, 5.7 liter V8, the 6'2 liter V8 and the V10 from the Viper. Then you could decide if you want FWD, RWD or AWD and then if you want it Front engine, Mid-Front, Mid-rear, or Rear engine. That would allow people to create cool and unique cars.

 

[ICEMAN_ZIDANE]

analog
i was not sure if you will understand me because my english...but it worked

now i want to say something to some other people here
first of all i think features like swaping engine/drivetrain/...are something to get fun i mean that would be perfect in games like Motor Storm nfs forza ...because the companys which make games with these features dont can/want make a car with swaped things in 3 months because the games are not SIMs ,that means that they make a car in ~1week (the driving with this car has nothing to do with a sim) and the players play it just for fun

now you want that PD make the same but PD will not do it because gt is a sim
you cant realase a civic with 700ps+unreal driving in gt5 ,that would be a disaster ->

 

[SavageEvil]

Viper V10 Powered AWD Neon BABY! WOO!

Is that even possible with the size of engine bay the Neon has? V10 would take up all the space in the bay plus some of the cab, you'd be driving from the back seat almost, lol.

 

[Metfanant]

analog
i was not sure if you will understand me because my english...but it worked

now i want to say something to some other people here
first of all i think features like swaping engine/drivetrain/...are something to get fun i mean that would be perfect in games like Motor Storm nfs forza ...because the companys which make games with these features dont can/want make a car with swaped things in 3 months because the games are not SIMs ,that means that they make a car in ~1week (the driving with this car has nothing to do with a sim) and the players play it just for fun

now you want that PD make the same but PD will not do it because gt is a sim
you cant realase a civic with 700ps+unreal driving in gt5 ,that would be a disaster ->

Stop kidding yourself....Forza is a sim racer...

 

[ICEMAN_ZIDANE]

->
what i want to say is that the "real"gt players dont want to get fun like in forza Motor Storm or nfs ,the fun level in gt is on a other category ,you get fun/adrenaline/...in gt by driving on the perfect line/doing a perfect overtake/braking perfect /shifting/you know what i want to say
and the fun level in nfs/forza/...is on a other category
there you can drive "unreal"(i mean you can put a 700ps engine in a car without changing much other things,its not possible,look Brabus example) cars with MUCH hp with a arcade driving +crashing all the time...these games are different from gt

i think most of the members which choosed Yes for engine or drivetrain swaping are on the other category (nfs/forza/...)
I think they dont care much about real driving or anything like this they want to get just fun
but GT is different

(in the last part i dont said that all who choosed Yes for swaping are in "category 2"i said MAYBE some of the members could be in this category)

 

[ICEMAN_ZIDANE]

omg Metfanant

i dont will say something to you because if someone says forza is a sim then he doesnt know much about sim !

sry but i dont will talk with you ...omg go and drive in forza with +300kmh on a road like eiger nordwand ...
sim lol

 

[analog]

i think most of the members which choosed Yes for engine or drivetrain swaping are on the other category (nfs/forza/...)
I think they dont care much about real driving or anything like this they want to get just fun
but GT is different

This is frankly rubbish, I can see why people may dislike this option with all sorts of credible arguments explaining why it would affect the core of the GT experience as they know it, or that its implication should at least be as realistic as possible.
I can also understand those in favour and the possiblities it would create.

But claiming it makes it less of a sim ( maybe a different game than the usual GT but still with the same physics ) and easily assuming those who have a different opinion are not interested in a real driving experience is just lazy and not fully thought out.
Having this option ( whether you'd like it or not ) will not change the physics or make it less real, it will just change the cars included ( if you would even choose to use this option ) just like some cars are changed IRL.

 

[eSZee]

yippee, the idiot is back. This is going to turn into the F1 thread, I can already see it.

 

[Seismica]

This is frankly rubbish, I can see why people may dislike this option with all sorts of credible arguments explaining why it would affect the core of the GT experience as they know it, or that its implication should at least be as realistic as possible.
I can also understand those in favour and the possiblities it would create.

But claiming it makes it less of a sim ( maybe a different game than the usual GT but still with the same physics ) and easily assuming those who have a different opinion are not interested in a real driving experience is just lazy and not fully thought out.
Having this option ( whether you'd like it or not ) will not change the physics or make it less real, it will just change the cars included ( if you would even choose to use this option ) just like some cars are changed IRL.

👍

For me, it doesn't matter if the feature is included. Though I do think if implemented accurately, it will be cool (Generally, I would think the stock drivetrain would always be the fastest on each car, because it will have been designed and engineered with it in mind)

I also think that if this feature was included along with a livery editor, it would practically kill Forza. Many Forza fans would jump ship if PD took Forza's unique selling points and bettered them.

 

[Spagetti69]

I play forza regularly with my friends. We have a weekly league running and it's quite enjoyable.
In the private lobby setups it's possible to turn off upgrades. Allow only rear wheel drive you can even choose cars pre 1975 if you want. What I'm trying to get across is that more options are better than less. If you form a car clan/club you regulate it yourselves. Ignore public racing and do yourself a favour.

 

[SuperShouden]

Is that even possible with the size of engine bay the Neon has? V10 would take up all the space in the bay plus some of the cab, you'd be driving from the back seat almost, lol.

Well, Hennessey did stuff it in a PT Cruiser once. And I would make it Mid Engine. Who needs back seats when you have a V10, right?

 

[JDMKING13]

->
what i want to say is that the "real"gt players dont want to get fun like in forza Motor Storm or nfs ,the fun level in gt is on a other category ,you get fun/adrenaline/...in gt by driving on the perfect line/doing a perfect overtake/braking perfect /shifting/you know what i want to say
and the fun level in nfs/forza/...is on a other category
there you can drive "unreal"(i mean you can put a 700ps engine in a car without changing much other things,its not possible,look Brabus example) cars with MUCH hp with a arcade driving +crashing all the time...these games are different from gt

i think most of the members which choosed Yes for engine or drivetrain swaping are on the other category (nfs/forza/...)
I think they dont care much about real driving or anything like this they want to get just fun
but GT is different

(in the last part i dont said that all who choosed Yes for swaping are in "category 2"i said MAYBE some of the members could be in this category)

C'mon man that's going to far now. I picked only engine swaps so i don't care about real driving. I think your going to far. As i said before as long as the swap is realistic i am happy. If you think i'm a arcade driver because i want to put a B18C5 in my EK hatch back i don't know what to say to you. In the end more options are better. 👍

 

[Tenacious D]

the fun level in nfs/forza/...is on a other category
there you can drive "unreal"(i mean you can put a 700ps engine in a car without changing much other things,its not possible,look Brabus example) cars with MUCH hp with a arcade driving +crashing all the time...these games are different from gt

i think most of the members which choosed Yes for engine or drivetrain swaping are on the other category (nfs/forza/...)
I think they dont care much about real driving or anything like this they want to get just fun
but GT is different

Frankly, I agree with this.

Now, with the millions of people who play Gran Turismo, I'm sure many of them treat it like Forza or NFS, and just want to mod a car beyond all reason to tear up a track. But, the essence of GT is to experience cars in all aspects. I sincerely doubt you'll ever see a Suzuki 360 in a Forza game, let alone a one make race with them. Forza is kind of like NFS grown up a bit more, but it's still all about adding power, and it lets you go to ridiculous lengths with it. Plus, the finicky attention to detail takes a back seat to just letting you go wild, such as the unreal superiority of AWD drivetrain swaps.

I voted no for drivetrail swaps, though I don't really want them eliminated, just discouraged.

Drivetrain swaps do kind of hurt the essence of the car as it is. Part of the fun of Gran Turismo is to see how to master a car with a certain design configuration. Front drive, rear drive, AWD, front engine, mid engine... each car makes you work out a method, based on your style, to get the most out of it. While power and suspension upgrades blur the distinctions between different makes and designs to some extent, drivetrain swaps do it much more. Why bother trying to come to terms with front drive cars and the way they pull you through a turn, when you can make a DT swap and get rid of front drive issues completely?

It took me a while to realize this, and it's why I haven't done any drivetrain swaps in Forza 3, and likely will only experiment with it in GT5 once or twice if we get it.

 

[Griffith500]

Well, to be frank, I would not consider myself an arcade racer, or sim racer - I'm a gamer.

What does that mean? It means I engage in interactive software designed to allow me to enjoy the challenges and opportunities it presents. Granted, some games' experiences are "cheaper" than others, some barely have any challenge to them at all. Others are frustrating to the point of "diminished responsibility"...

Anyway, what I'm trying to say is, GT has always been a game about driving and racing cars against other cars, on circuits specifically designed / arranged for such. In the real world, car races exist with entrants sporting cars with engines that were never intended to be installed in them. This is a fact of life. This stuff happens - sometimes it's obviously like a "gimmick" (V6 Corsa?), other times it's really beneficial (Speed 6 Tuscan Cup car, replacing the ageing Rover V8). There must be a reason that so many of the Japanese tuners are throwing stroked K-series motors in their Fits, EGs etc.

It's simple: the more modern engine serves as a better standpoint for hardcore tuning, owing to the improved block casts and stock components. Even on the road, considerable advantage can be found just by swapping out to a similar family engine - B18s into Civics is really common. (Excuse the apparent bias to Honda, but it's what I have the most real-world experience with.)

Engine swaps at the very least are legitimate. Drivetrain swaps a little less so. If you're swapping out an engine, chances are you're going to need a new gearbox (that's part of the drivetrain), so at the least, your gear ratios are going to change - especially if you swap out to a bespoke Getrag unit, or whatever.
Swapping RWD cars to 4WD should be severly restricted, as it is in real life. Very few people are interested in making a car 4WD from RWD; FWD on the other hand. Then there's the world of rallying...


My point is, if it does make it in, and if it's done properly (which it may well be), it shan't at all be "arcadey". Open your minds people, GT isn't Forza / NFS et al, despite what the majority of its players perhaps may want.

(no, it's not perfect either - but neither are you )

 

[JDMKING13]

Well, to be frank, I would not consider myself an arcade racer, or sim racer - I'm a gamer.

What does that mean? It means I engage in interactive software designed to allow me to enjoy the challenges and opportunities it presents. Granted, some games' experiences are "cheaper" than others, some barely have any challenge to them at all. Others are frustrating to the point of "diminished responsibility"...

Anyway, what I'm trying to say is, GT has always been a game about driving and racing cars against other cars, on circuits specifically designed / arranged for such. In the real world, car races exist with entrants sporting cars with engines that were never intended to be installed in them. This is a fact of life. This stuff happens - sometimes it's obviously like a "gimmick" (V6 Corsa?), other times it's really beneficial (Speed 6 Tuscan Cup car, replacing the ageing Rover V8). There must be a reason that so many of the Japanese tuners are throwing stroked K-series motors in their Fits, EGs etc.

It's simple: the more modern engine serves as a better standpoint for hardcore tuning, owing to the improved block casts and stock components. Even on the road, considerable advantage can be found just by swapping out to a similar family engine - B18s into Civics is really common. (Excuse the apparent bias to Honda, but it's what I have the most real-world experience with.)

Engine swaps at the very least are legitimate. Drivetrain swaps a little less so. If you're swapping out an engine, chances are you're going to need a new gearbox (that's part of the drivetrain), so at the least, your gear ratios are going to change - especially if you swap out to a bespoke Getrag unit, or whatever.
Swapping RWD cars to 4WD should be severly restricted, as it is in real life. Very few people are interested in making a car 4WD from RWD; FWD on the other hand. Then there's the world of rallying...


My point is, if it does make it in, and if it's done properly (which it may well be), it shan't at all be "arcadey". Open your minds people, GT isn't Forza / NFS et al, despite what the majority of its players perhaps may want.

(no, it's not perfect either - but neither are you )

Thats what it's about ^^^^

 

[CoolColJ]

PD is going to have to weigh or get weights for every engine made, not gonna happen, if they want to do it properly
Then this will be taken into account by the physics engine. What about the fuel tank capacity, where do you put all the other bits of the engine? etc there is a lot more to think about then just chuck one engine in and out

remeber engines are now modelled in some cars, along with all the internal components

 

[sennarose88]

I want both, but with limited choice of engines/drivetrains. Maybe RB28DETT, B18C, 4G63 or something like that. So no swapping the Ferrari's 056 engine to an Elise.

 

[Heath_1]

I don't want engine or drivetrain swaps at all, they do not belong in Gran Turismo series heritage and game philosophy.

I see your point in not wanting to change or ruin the game due to the fact us older players have become used to the way GT1 through to GT4 plays and they all have the same feel (you know what I mean?) but think about it this way. They've already changed the feel of the game for GT5 so it probably wont feel like GT4 or GT2. They've made it all new and cool and (hopefully) better so adding a brand new feature such as engine swaps (in my opinion) would just add to the excitement.

 

[Racin'Jason]

i think the problem with engine swaps is that the actual engines in the cars are not "labeled" with that car. In past Gt's, it's always been FR, MR etc. i cannot recall if they ever even mention v6, straight six, flat-4 etc. my point is that with as many cars as they appear to want to put in GT5, i think it would be near impossible to "label" all the engines for the different cars and set up which cars can swap for certain engines (an old mini cooper cannot drop a 12-cylinder Viper motor for example)

 

[emponator]

I would love to see engine swaps, but only within parent company and within reason.
No Bugatti engine in a MK4 golf or an Enzo V12 in a Fiat 500, but something like a Lancer 2.0L WRC engine into a Colt.

Also, no drivetrain swaps, but I wish there was the option to adjust the AWD to roll only either rear tires or front tires.
So if I take an Audi R8, put it full RWD, it would essentially be an RWD car, but it wouldn't gain the weight loss from a full swap.
And AWD cars should waste more power with the drivetrain than 2WD cars, just like they do in real life.
Meaning that 50/50 F/R Audi R8 would be a bit slower on a straight line than a 0/100 F/R Audi R8, but would be a bit easier to drive in curves and quicker of the line.


But I don't believe there won't be neither. No drivetrain swaps and no engine swaps.

 

[Rem20]

It depends on how it is implemented. Cars are autographed in a way, and changing certain areas (besides horsepower) tends to make the car lose the identity it was built for. Imagine a FF Ford GT with a Ferrari engine.

Cars can be swapped in various ways in real life, but not without years of training on how cars work. The structure of a civic is built for a civic and a civic alone, changing the drivetrain/engine could compromise the structural integrity of the car causing it to fail. You can not throw in any old drivetrain/engine and expect it to work without some serious reworking, in real life that is.

 

[Aloha62_2]

Cars can be swapped in various ways in real life, but not without years of training on how cars work. The structure of a civic is built for a civic and a civic alone, changing the drivetrain/engine could compromise the structural integrity of the car causing it to fail. You can not throw in any old drivetrain/engine and expect it to work without some serious reworking, in real life that is.

Actually no, its not that difficult and will have no effect on the integrity of the car, road cars are not like f1 cars where the engine is used as part of the chassis, on road cars the subframe or chassis members contain the strength and the engine simply sits inside mounted by 3 or 4 mounts. On most cars you can pull the engine and gearbox completely out and it will have no effect on the chassis of the car.

There car companies out there dedicated to making custom engines mounts and driveshafts which are the tricky bits of a engine swap and if you do switch to a different make of engine or one from a different family then you will also need the ecu and wiring loom, added expense but not added difficulty. Although wiring up the gauges can be a bit of a pain in the backside.



I also dont think it would be that difficult to implement in game.

-dont allow engine position or orientation changes as this often requires custom made frames and such and are as a whole unfeasable or 'codge jobs'
-only allow drivetrain changes to make a 4wd car a rear wheel drive only, all other changes require incredible amounts of work.

Measure the size of each engine as a cube, PD should already have this data if the engine are modelled in some form, give this a size rating. measure each engine bay as a cube again PD should already have this data from modelling the car, give this size a rating.

If the engine rating is smaller then the bay rating your good to go, the closer the ratings are together the longer it takes for the job to be done and you get that car back and the more it costs.