ESCarGOT: A Tasty S.N.A.I.L. Event!!! Every Thursday!

[Vol Jbolaz]

I had fun last night, but... there is still just something off about the format for me.

The first round was fantastic. There were so many beautiful cars, on such a beautiful track. The problem was, the cars were in two classes. It was the goes-like-the-blazes Stratos and the two Z cars in a race, with some Lotii in a separate race.

I think the BMW was somewhere between. It was too fast for the English cars and was chasing me down, the slowest driver of the three out front, pouncing when I made a mistake. My car was better, I wasn't. And while that made for some good racing there, did the rest of the field really enjoy it?

Thanks to the luck of traffic, I really only did battle during the first race of the first round. On the second race, I followed Cheeb's Lotus around until I could finally get by (and not stuff it). After that, it was simply, don't make a mistake. The only car/driver combos that could beat me were too held up by traffic.

I only won the first race of the second round due to my crazy powerful RGT. After the evening was over, I saw one in the used car dealership with 489 PP. That is the one I should've used. My fully broken in model was not the 490 I was expecting, but over 500 PP. I had to limit the car to just below 81%. And at that point, it is just a different car.

It was fun starting at the back and passing up through the field. I don't get to do that often.

For the second race, I swapped it out and joined the Corps d'Esprit. I don't enjoy that car as much. I would've much rather have had a 3400S.

Still, I finished second. All I did was stay on the track. Being in the same car as everyone else, I was slower. As the race went on, I was the line between the cars that stayed on (all in front of me) and the ones that went off (most of whom were behind me).

The third round was just an Audi commercial. And not a very good one. I was not pleased with that round at all. It also sucked that there were a couple of drivers in worse cars than me, but still beat me. And I was the only one they beat.

I do appreciate that it is hard to come up with some sort of limit that will produce close racing between different, un-modified cars. At each point, without modifications, there will simply be a car that monsters the rest. All I can say to that is, Kaz is a big dick. In the real world, there are racing series that allow one to change some components, but require other components to be stock. Why don't we have that level of control, Kaz?

Stop making a game about cars in which people can pose, make a game about racing that has real cars.

 

[Wolfsatz]

I had fun last night, but... there is still just something off about the format for me.

The first round was fantastic. There were so many beautiful cars, on such a beautiful track. The problem was, the cars were in two classes. It was the goes-like-the-blazes Stratos and the two Z cars in a race, with some Lotii in a separate race.

I think the BMW was somewhere between. It was too fast for the English cars and was chasing me down, the slowest driver of the three out front, pouncing when I made a mistake. My car was better, I wasn't. And while that made for some good racing there, did the rest of the field really enjoy it?

Thanks to the luck of traffic, I really only did battle during the first race of the first round. On the second race, I followed Cheeb's Lotus around until I could finally get by (and not stuff it). After that, it was simply, don't make a mistake. The only car/driver combos that could beat me were too held up by traffic.

I only won the first race of the second round due to my crazy powerful RGT. After the evening was over, I saw one in the used car dealership with 489 PP. That is the one I should've used. My fully broken in model was not the 490 I was expecting, but over 500 PP. I had to limit the car to just below 81%. And at that point, it is just a different car.

It was fun starting at the back and passing up through the field. I don't get to do that often.

For the second race, I swapped it out and joined the Corps d'Esprit. I don't enjoy that car as much. I would've much rather have had a 3400S.

Still, I finished second. All I did was stay on the track. Being in the same car as everyone else, I was slower. As the race went on, I was the line between the cars that stayed on (all in front of me) and the ones that went off (most of whom were behind me).

The third round was just an Audi commercial. And not a very good one. I was not pleased with that round at all. It also sucked that there were a couple of drivers in worse cars than me, but still beat me. And I was the only one they beat.

I do appreciate that it is hard to come up with some sort of limit that will produce close racing between different, un-modified cars. At each point, without modifications, there will simply be a car that monsters the rest. All I can say to that is, Kaz is a big dick. In the real world, there are racing series that allow one to change some components, but require other components to be stock. Why don't we have that level of control, Kaz?

Stop making a game about cars in which people can pose, make a game about racing that has real cars.

I think the 10% limiter rule is hard to police and it is done on a honor basis. Last week the RUF and a HSC Concept were a lot faster than the Lotus Sprit which is right at 480PP with 345 HP. ... so for those that like to bend the rules just for a win does not promote close racing....

With the older cars, it seems that it is just a luck of the draw.. the Stratos is just crazy fast and very light, but also a beast to control; I got lucky 3 weeks ago when I selected a Mazda Cosmo that beat newer cars by more than 10 seconds just because it has much better handling and awesome breaking without getting out of shape.

The SPA combo was supposed to be 450 HP Plus, so that we could run Rufs, Audis, Tommy Kiara, and whatever else that fits that description. My original idea was to just make it a RUF night, but most would probably chosen 1 of 2 fastest RUFs.... The 450HP killed this combo, as I didn't even had a good car to run under 450 and someone complained about the tuner car... which bring another argument....


... it was said tuner cars are not allowed; however concepts have been ran all along.. so what is the difference? If it is under the Standard Car tab .. it should be allowed as there is no restriction on this on the thread.

Anyway, I hope whoever wins; can just change the cars at SPA as I did not get to run my own combo

 

[racefan78]

Agreed Vol. We do the best we can with what the game gives us here. And at the end of the day, the real attraction of this series is the unique cars that you wouldn't get to drive or compete against elsewhere. We realize the racing will never be quite as close or competitive as true spec racing, but thats simply the nature of the game. That said, if you have any suggestions on how to improve the quality of racing here, we're always open to suggestions. And thank's for joining us last night!

The results will be up soon. I'd like to appologize to Wolfsatz about the confusion regarding his combo selection. In the future, please be as specific as possible when making choices for combos, especially if your car spec falls outside of the max pp/drivetrain template we typically use.

Edit: And regarding tuner cars, we will follow the same guidelines that SNAIL uses, treating some as race cars and some as street cars, depending on what purpose they were built for. So, if you aren't sure about a particular tuner, please post on the thread ahead of time and we'll check it out. Otherwise bring a different car as well just in case

 

[racefan78]

OFFICIAL RESULTS: WEEK 10

Awsome night of racing last night guys! Just when I thought intrest in this series might not be high enough to make it worth the effort, you guys proved me wrong! Hopefully some of you who are new to SCT will become regulars after having so much fun!


1. Vol_Jbolaz..............86
2. racefan78...............85
3. weaver-2009_.........81
4. ChuthuluGoat..........67
5. Wolfsatz.................62
6. kcheeb...................60
7. Apmaddock.............57
8. codeblue111............48
9. lifesagamble420........37
10. Luv2Coach............10


Round 3 recieved the most votes. Vol_Jbolaz, you get to pick a new combo to replace it.

Round 2 and 1 tied for the second most, but weaver already voted for 2 in the tiebreaker, so I get to pick a new track or car spec for round 2.

Thanks to everyone who showed up and raced!

 

[kcheeb]

I drive this series because I get to drive a bunch of cars that would otherwise collect dust in the garage.

Save the Audi, I had pretty much every other car in my favourites that was raced. I chose the cars I chose because I wanted to be different.

I've always found someone to race here. Not to mention I get my fill of 10 plus cars bumper to bumper Sundays and Tuesdays.

This is fun, if you want a parity series Vol, I think you have the tools.

 

[Vol Jbolaz]

Round 3 recieved the most votes. Vol_Jbolaz, you get to pick a new combo to replace it.

That's cool, and won't happen again, so I'll see what I can do.

This is fun, if you want a parity series Vol, I think you have the tools.

We don't quite have the tools that we should.

I think something as simple as being able to add ballast with tuning prohibited would be fantastic.

If we set a PP limit, that is good to a point. There are some cars that hover around the PP limit. The ones that win are the ones that are just a point or two higher, and can be limited down. So, the pool of cars is actually a bit small.

If we set an HP limit, then you just look for the lightest car with slightly more HP and limit it down.

If we could say, FRs with no more than 276 HP and no less than 1280 Kg, then we could have a huge selection of cars that would be very competitive and fun. Three-door hatch backs with no more than... 160 HP and no less than 1100 Kg? I don't know, just making up numbers. Point is, being able to set both would make it massively better.

And actually, I kind of like those ideas. Let me see what I can come up with.
Obviously, without ballast.

 

[AMWeaver47]

If we could say, FRs with no more than 276 HP and no less than 1280 Kg, then we could have a huge selection of cars that would be very competitive and fun. Three-door hatch backs with no more than... 160 HP and no less than 1100 Kg? I don't know, just making up numbers. Point is, being able to set both would make it massively better.

And actually, I kind of like those ideas. Let me see what I can come up with.
Obviously, without ballast.

I have come up with a few ideas that I think will smooth things out.

I know you are trying to make it an open choice but what if you made a list of vehicle options to pick from?

-Under 276 hp and 1280 Weight
-Pre 1980 cars under 180 horsepower
-Pre 1980 American cars
-etc.

We would make a list of vehicles that we were sure we could make a solid class of, then the winning drivers could pick the guidelines from that list and choose their own track. If a driver thought of another class that was valid and would work then we could add it to the list. That way, the winners still get their prize and we don't end up with only 4 cars that work for a class.


My other idea was to make drivers PM a GTPlanet account early in the week with their cars so you could make sure everyone was in the right car rather than having a surprise in the middle of racing. The only problem would be the time to check it over but it may lead to less incidents on race night.

Just my .02

 

[racefan78]

Alright gents, my pick is to replace Nurburgring GP/D with Autumn Ring. That should make things interesting by taking some advantage away from the heavy, high powered cars like my Esprit and giving an edge to the lighter, better handling cars.

 

[Handlebar]

Possible ideas - and I am really trying to get Thursdays free, I love Standard cars and variety:

MR Cars - under 1050 kg, under 205 hp
FF cars - above 1100 kg, 215 - 270 hp (not the top 3 FF cars, essentially, by hp)
FR Cars - weight 900 - 1100kg, under 150 hp
FR Cars - some sweet spots around 355, 405 with big variety
4WD - above 1350kg, under 250 hp

I can come up with others if those are of some use.

 

[Vol Jbolaz]

I was thinking of trying to do some sort of Initial D type of thing. A whole bunch of '90s JDMs around 276 HP or so. But... I think what I may do is PP limited FFs and either do hot hatches (like the Civic) or FF sport coupés (like the Integra).

Not sure about the track yet. I hope to have the cars sorted by tonight.

p.s. To give an idea of the I'm thinking of, this is a list of hot hatches and FF coupés. The coupé list is longer, so there are more options. In either case, I'm trying to find a sweet spot for the PP limit. I'm thinking about 385-390. I don't know, yet.

The other concern I have is this idea sort of overlaps with the 390 PP@Monaco event currently on the docket and an older 400 PP@Deep Forest event.

 

[Apmaddock]

I don't like allowing tuner cars when street cars are what is asked for. In my mind, that's the same as allowing tuning. An Amuse S2000 will most likely be faster than a Honda S2000 even if they both have the same power and weight. If not, the tuner failed in his job…

Why can't you set maximum power and minimum weight? Maybe I'm mistaken but I thought that was an option.

So far the biggest problem to SCT seems to be people's ignorance as to what is allowed and what is not. It needs to be made clear to people new to the event (and some veterans, apparently) that cars are limited to:

• The Standard Garage
• 10% Engine Limiting
• Street Cars, unless otherwise noted (not Tuners)
• Whatever other limitations are set by the person who won the prize and gets to make the decision

Furthermore, it should go without saying that the person who picks a prize should do a bit of research and see what standard cars are available at whatever guidelines they are imparting on the cars. The third round last week was a prime example of this, where there were really only a couple of usable cars. If Wolf had meant 450+ horsepower than everyone likely would have simply gone for maximum power, and we would've had a field of Veyrons…

I think this is a great series and I have more real fun running this than just about anything else right now. Sunday is great fun but much more stressful. This is fun and, in a way, amusing.

Racefan: Maybe it's time to invest in a headset. We need a leader with a voice.

 

[Quetzal KnightI]

Randomize the cars anyone? With a randomizer and then everyone votes if the car is in their possession.

 

[racefan78]

I agree with Apmaddock that the main problem here is that many people simply don't know what is allowed and what is not. And yes, I do need a headset. Perhaps that will be my Christmas gift to myself.

When it comes to tuners, that really depends on how the round is spec'd. If we go by pp, I don't think it's a problem, because tuners will have higher pp than an equivalent street car, so you'd have to limit them more, not use them at all, or use a tuner model of a less-than-equivalent street car. I remember driving a NISMO Skyline type thing in one of the first weeks of the series and getting my butt handed to me by a bunch of non-tuner cars.

However, I do see your point that at a given weight/power a tuner will tend to be quicker. I guess we could just create a seperate catagory for tuner cars, since they fall somewhere between street and race cars. thoughts anyone?

Also, it's been pointed out that we haven't done a very good job of policing the 10% rule for power limiting. From now on, if you notice someone driving a car you believe to be illegal, and they refuse to switch cars, please let me know. I will check up on any reported problems, and if it is found that a driver was using an illegal car, they will not recieve any points from that round. The OP will be updated to reflect this.

 

[jobyone]

[*]10% Engine Limiting

My $.02 (and unfortunately I am not able to participate do to the timing although I wish I could) is that allowing Engine limiting automatically gives an advantage to the car that is limited. I believe that the limiting is only for the hp and does not effect the torque curve. You thus have a car with the torque curve of a higher PP car. Have you guys thought of using balast rather than Engine limiting to lower the PP? Perhaps a head to head of a car with the PP limited each way.

 

[Apmaddock]

It does effect the torque curve, though probably not in a way that you might expect. It would have to, as horsepower is a function of torque and engine speed. I agree that a limited car will typically have a better power band than a non-limited one because the horsepower curve goes flat at the limited number, giving the car a certain horsepower across a spectrum of the curve. This is a good thing…unless it is taken to an extreme.

Using ballast instead of engine limiting is a good idea, though it poses two problems. First is that you have to allow tuning to allow ballast, and that forces even more things onto the honor system. Second is that you can also decide where in the car to put the ballast, which can, sometimes drastically, improve the way the car handles.

As to tuner cars, again, they probably will have a higher PP at a given power and weight. That often starts with the fact that they've got a spoiler. I don't know if there is anything else computed into that magical PP number or not, though.

 

[Vol Jbolaz]

Why can't you set maximum power and minimum weight? Maybe I'm mistaken but I thought that was an option.

One can do this, but since we can't add ballast, this will limit the cars that can be competitive.

And that is my problem. And it isn't a problem with the format, but with Kaz the Spaz. I don't ever like seeing the illusion of choice. People may think they can pick any one of a dozen options, but really, only two of them are competitive. That's not as much fun.

Guess it is 1/6th the fun.

 

[Apmaddock]

That's true.

For my part I know that, of every make/model that I have, I have at least one car that is in pure stock form. If ballast was opened up I could run with ample insurance that I haven't tuned the car. I'm sure I'm in the minority there, though.

Allowing us to choose what types of tuning are allowed or not seems like such an obvious thing to do that it's no wonder PD hasn't done it.

 

[Handlebar]

That seems too obvious, AP.

 

[racefan78]

But considering it seems we can even trust people to not limit their cars too much, I don't think it would be a good idea to open up tuning to the honor system just to use ballast

 

[Apmaddock]

…or not use Premium cars…

Precisely.

 

[Vol Jbolaz]

For my part I know that, of every make/model that I have, I have at least one car that is in pure stock form. If ballast was opened up I could run with ample insurance that I haven't tuned the car. I'm sure I'm in the minority there, though.

I'm late to the collecting game, but I have been trying to build up a collect of 0/0 standards. I need to get a 0-level ticket. That would help.

Okay... as to the new combo, this is what I'm thinking (and I hope it doesn't upset everyone):

385 PP FF Sport Coupés at Grand Valley - Reverse

I've put together a garage with examples. The idea is for front-wheel-drive two-door coupés. Some of these are three-door cars that are not hatch-backs, like the Integra and the Celica. I tried to avoid two-door roadsters, like the Alfa Romeo Spider.

My aim was to pick something with a lot of variety where the cars should all be pretty competitive. In this range is a couple of Alfa's, Integras, Preludes, the Hyundai coupés, one of the DSMs, FTOs, Celicas, and BZ-Rs. There is also the Mini Marcos and Peugeot 406 in that range, just to add some more variety (and probably some other stuff I didn't see). There is also a variety of I-4s and V-6s. I am hoping it isn't dominated by the V-6s.

 

[racefan78]

Sounds good Vol, I'll update the combo post.

 

[Vol Jbolaz]

I've just realized that MGT.net is off by a lot. I expected it to be off by a little between 0 mile and broken-in, but no... it is just off. I'm guessing they are using an older PP formula. Ohwell... I hope there is still a good spread of cars at this PP level.

 

[racefan78]

I've just realized that MGT.net is off by a lot. I expected it to be off by a little between 0 mile and broken-in, but no... it is just off. I'm guessing they are using an older PP formula. Ohwell... I hope there is still a good spread of cars at this PP level.

Well feel free to change the PP level if you're worried about it. If not, we'll just roll with it and see how it goes

 

[Vol Jbolaz]

Well feel free to change the PP level if you're worried about it. If not, we'll just roll with it and see how it goes

I haven't, yet, settled on a car myself. I have a couple of candidates. But... I won't have a chance to get back to my garage until tomorrow, and I feel at that point it will just be too late.

Hopefully this all works out. I'm sorry if it doesn't.

 

[Chiochan]

Can I drive the Lantis Coupe even though it has 4 doors?

 

[racefan78]

Can I drive the Lantis Coupe even though it has 4 doors?

I would think if it has Coupe in the name it should be good, provided that it fits the PP and drivetrain requirements

 

[Wolfsatz]

I would think if it has Coupe in the name it should be good, provided that it fits the PP and drivetrain requirements

if my pick was bad with the 450HP+ ... this one is even more shady..

what cars fit this description?

...
I see Vol's garage as examples.... I am thinking racing in Style with the Alfa's

...
Weight vs. power! Some light cars sometime have an advantage over more powerful heavier ones. Should be fun!

 

[Chiochan]

Tons wolf, just sort your garage by Drive train(FF), then PP, hit square to see a large picture of the car(this will help you see if it is a coupe by size), then just scroll down to 390 pp to 370 pp cars, and pick a coupe. I think the general idea was to not run Minis and roadsters and the like. Reading the description will help with unfamiliar cars. As a suggestion try the Mazda Lantis(US name 323F).

 

[racefan78]

Yeah, I found 2 good options the very first time I checked the Used Car Dealership. And Wolfsatz, the reason people had issues with your 450+ HP idea wasn't because of the lack of cars, it was because not having an upper HP/PP limit would open that round up to they Veyron, and then it would be pretty much impossible for anyone else to keep up.