Europe - The Official Thread

[Sanji Himura]

You think the Republican House and Senate will vote to increase taxes and welfare?

They just might in the name of "compromise". The compromise being that Obama will sign the bill into law in exchange for all of his social programs remaining in place for the next two years.

 

[Johnnypenso]

They just might in the name of "compromise". The compromise being that Obama will sign the bill into law in exchange for all of his social programs remaining in place for the next two years.

How does raising taxes and increasing welfare benefit a Republican majority in both houses?

 

[Sanji Himura]

How does raising taxes and increasing welfare benefit a Republican majority in both houses?

It doesn't, and everyone else outside the beltway knows that. However, when you consider the fact that you have a president that has all but passed amnesty with a stroke of his pen, and delayed a law's provision to go into effect numerous times using that same pen, it isn't that much of a stretch to think that Obama's brand of compromise is to sit down and pass what I tell you.

 

[Dotini]

How does raising taxes and increasing welfare benefit a Republican majority in both houses?

Raising gasoline taxes while oil prices are down will be a tempting way to raise government revenue and deal with the deficit/debt, things that Republicans want to do just like anybody else. Increasing social benefits is less likely, except insofar as it helps consolidate Republican voting districts.

Somehow we have strayed off-topic.

 

[Dennisch]

Exit polls all point towards a Syriza win in Greece.

In other words?

They are screwed.

Late night edit.

It seems that they will win so badly that they most likely will run the country by themselves.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

It seems that they will win so badly that they most likely will run the country by themselves.

That's what usually happens when a government wins an election. Some could probably do with some oversight, but if you win, you run the country.

 

[Dennisch]

That's what usually happens when a government wins an election. Some could probably do with some oversight, but if you win, you run the country.

That not what I meant. They will run it alone. No other parties involved to form a coalition.

Look up how European politics work.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

That not what I meant. They will run it alone. No other parties involved to form a coalition.

You do know that Syriza is a coalition - or at least started as one - right?

 

[Dennisch]

You do know that Syriza is a coalition - or at least started as one - right?

Yes. But now it's a single party left wingers who aren't too fond of Europe anymore.

Edit

They didn't get absolutely majority by 2 seats, but they did form a coalition with a populist right wing party that also is pretty much anti Europe.

My original statement still stands.

 

[Touring Mars]

Things are about to get a bit interesting in Greece - it remains to be seen what Syriza actually plan to do, but Greece has definitely taken a decisive step towards either leaving the EU and/or abandoning the Euro, which could spell disaster for the Euro and/or the Greek people in the long term. I can understand why the Greek people are sick of the conditions being imposed on them by the 'troika' but there is a very real risk that the Greek people could easily make things considerably worse for themselves by abandoning the 'EU path' and going it alone. The taramasalata may well hit the fan shortly.

 

[Liquid]

But as mustafur alluded to on the last page, what do you do when your country is governed or controlled by unelected foreign leaders of a supranational body who are undesired by the population?

 

[Dennisch]

Greece brought this all on themselves. They lived way beyond their means before the Euro and when they entered. I am pretty sure they knew the consequences of having Europe regulate your finances.

The Eurozone will survive without Greece. It might take a hit but it will live on.
And Greece will pay back their debts. Even if they leave.

 

[Touring Mars]

But as mustafur alluded to on the last page, what do you do when your country is governed or controlled by unelected foreign leaders of a supranational body who are undesired by the population?

No doubt it's a tricky one - the 'democratic deficit' is a real issue in the great European project - but it's questionable whether or not you can merely vote your way out of debt/financial ruin. Greece's problems stem from way beyond their ill-fated dalliance with EU membership, but EU membership (and having to adopt the Euro) appears to have backfired on Greece. Meanwhile, Greece has been bailed out to the tune of a quarter of a trillion Euros - and if you are going to accept bailouts, you have to accept (and agree to maintain) the terms of those bailouts. Accepting bailouts and then reneging on the terms is about the worst possible thing to do when you are utterly dependent on borrowing money to survive - what do they think is going to happen?

And Greece will pay back their debts.

The Jokes! thread is thataway --->

 

[Dennisch]

The Jokes! thread is thataway --->

Europe will just annex a couple of thousand Greek islands to get that money back.

If Russia is allowed to steal land, so can we.

 

[Dotini]

But as mustafur alluded to on the last page, what do you do when your country is governed or controlled by unelected foreign leaders of a supranational body who are undesired by the population?

An outstanding question.

The answer, in the case of Greece, is to elect an inexperienced government to reject the supranationally mandated policy of austerity. Austerity, of course, means paying your debts by cutting social benefits such as pensions for the retired promoting employment for the youth. Instead, they would renegotiate their debts or default. A bold if desperate move on the part of Greeks, and illustrative of the tension between democratic national governments and authoritarian supranational governments like the EU.

All this would be rather trivial, since economically tiny Greece and her problems are merely a pimple on the butt of Europe. The real problem is larger states like Italy and Spain with similar problems. Youth unemployment rates of 50% ought to be a real motivator since as we know, this leads to social unrest and violence.

So the Greek problem is a harbinger of threats to the larger EU, and warns of the incompatibility of national democracies with more global systems of governance. IMO, nation states are merely a passing phase in the evolution of civilization. If you must live in a democracy, either it will eventually become unstable and fail, or it has already become homogeneous, rich, and insular like the Swiss.

 

[TheCracker]

An outstanding question.

The answer, in the case of Greece, is to elect an inexperienced government to reject the supranationally mandated policy of austerity. Austerity, of course, means paying your debts by cutting social benefits such as pensions for the retired promoting employment for the youth. Instead, they would renegotiate their debts or default.

It also means making sure the super-wealthy, of which Greece has plenty, are forced to pay the tax they should be paying. Social injustice is one of main reasons why the Syriza party/parties have developed a strong following. Corruption within the ruling parties and turning a blind eye to what their cronies are getting away with, is one of the leading reasons there's been such unrest throughout this whole crisis.

You piss off enough of your population for long enough and before you know it you have social unrest and not unusually, the rise in popularity of parties in the more extreme ends of the political scale. And as history has told, that never ends well.

 

[Dennisch]

Not paying taxes isn't just reserved for the rich in Greece. It's almost the baseball of Greece, their favourite pastime.

 

[Liquid]

Not paying taxes isn't just reserved for the rich in Greece. It's almost the baseball of Greece, their favourite pastime.

Having spent time there, this is absolutely true.

It's been oft said, but the integration has gone way too far.

Trade deals and alliances with your neighbours? Great idea.
Putting everyone's eggs, including the black debt eggs, in one basket? Awful idea.

 

[TheCracker]

Not paying taxes isn't just reserved for the rich in Greece. It's almost the baseball of Greece, their favourite pastime.

Of course. That's why letting them be part of the Eurozone in the first place was ridiculously short-sighted.

Away from the capitol, at least on the islands, the population still relies on a bartering-system for much of their economy. How the hell can you even begin to tax that?

 

[Dotini]

Away from the capitol, at least on the islands, the population still relies on a bartering-system for much of their economy. How the hell can you even begin to tax that?

Such stone age bartering economies cannot be tolerated in the modern world. Donald Trump, Rupert Murdoch and the Russian oligarchs, acting in long-overdue eminent domain, should divvy up these backwards islands and develop them into centers of profit.

 

[Keef]

Anybody have first-hand insight on this subject? It realize it is a more real "problem" in Europe than the US at the moment.

 

[Liquid]

Of course. That's why letting them be part of the Eurozone in the first place was ridiculously short-sighted.

Amd whose fault was that? The same unelected, unpopular and unaccountable supranational politicians. I firmly hold them as responsible as the actual individual countries and their debts.

 

[Dennisch]

Anybody have first-hand insight on this subject? It realize it is a more real "problem" in Europe than the US at the moment.

Germany. And Germany alone. Not Europe.

Also has nothing or very little to do with the crisis.

 

[Keef]

Germany. And Germany alone. Not Europe.

Also has nothing or very little to do with the crisis.

What about France? The stereotype is that they hate Muslims. Is there any truth to that?

 

[Dennisch]

What about France? The stereotype is that they hate Muslims. Is there any truth to that?

You should try to read European news sites.
Look how many showed some sort of support for the Islamic community after what happened in Paris.

But again, wrong thread. This place is for seeing money evaporate, thanks to a couple of giant US money houses selling the world worthless crap, the world getting their wallets filled again and laughing at Greece.

 

[Keef]

Next question: Is Russia still a threat to Western Europe given that their economy is going to crap? In the aviation community there's been a lot of talk about fighter jets of the US and Russia and how Russia's Flankers are scary machines. They might have some nifty equipment but if they don't have any money to run it then I'm not sure what the big deal is.

 

[Dennisch]

Russia's economy is going down the drain faster than booze down Dion's throat.

Europe's sanctions and the tumbling oilprice have had a massive impact on the Ruble. As you say, the money to run their machines is disappearing pretty fast. But Russia hasn't been a real threat since the Iron curtain fell.
We've had a couple of interceptions of Russian planes in our skies but they are being escorted by fighters as soon as they cross their borders.


I suspect that Putin will swallow his pride and back down on his policies when the Ruskies start complaining.

And I don't think the Russian army can't take on the fight with the combined European armies, which will be supported by the USA if Russia tries anything.

 

[Dotini]

Next question: Is Russia still a threat to Western Europe given that their economy is going to crap? In the aviation community there's been a lot of talk about fighter jets of the US and Russia and how Russia's Flankers are scary machines. They might have some nifty equipment but if they don't have any money to run it then I'm not sure what the big deal is.

Keef, Russia is no military threat to Europe. Due to US pressure, the EU has had to levy sanctions against Russia, reducing trade and forcing Russia to seek new markets and pipelines for its gas, which hurts Europe in turn. It will never come to military conflict between Europe and Russia. The problem is the US is dug in on its position of revolution in Ukraine, and
Russia is dug in on its sphere of influence in eastern Ukraine. Unless either the US or Russia walks back their dog, the conflict between the US and Russia could escalate terribly.

 

[Dennisch]

forcing Russia to seek new markets and pipelines for its gas, which hurts Europe in turn.

Russia still sells gas to Europe. It just wants Ukraine out of the way. So plans are made for a pipeline through Turkey.

 

[Dotini]

Russia still sells gas to Europe. It just wants Ukraine out of the way. So plans are made for a pipeline through Turkey.

Correct, but don't forget the new contracts to sell Russian gas to China carried in a new pipeline.