Europe - The Official Thread

[baldgye]

If it had not been for the U.S. Germany would have just continued to bomb the U.K. until they were totally beaten into submission.

TIL USA won the Battle of Britain

 

[MaxAttack]

Germany had pretty much kicked most of Europe's ass before they got into it hot and heavy with Russia. As you can see by highlights below Germany did not attack Russia until after Europe was little threat themselves. If it had not been for the U.S. Germany would have just continued to bomb the U.K. until they were totally beaten into submission.
German subs basically controlled the shipping and sank most of the ships bringing in war supplies that the U.K. and Europe needed.
Again it was the addition of U.S. naval forces in the Atlantic that did a lot to turn that tide of the German subs control as well.
It is always possible as well if the U.S. had not gotten involved and not only their manpower but their much needed on the battle lines equipment of war had not started turning the tide on the western front in Europe that Germany would have been able to put more focus on defeating Russia changing that outcome as well.

Actually the AXIS mistake was Japan attacking the U.S. and getting them actively in the war.If Japan had of been smart instead and attacked Russia from the east from the lands they had conquered in China while Germany engaged them from the west that Russia with the lack of goods and military weapons and hardware needed to fight a war then Russia probably would have been in trouble.



But regardless I think the time lines pretty well back up that the tide did not turn in Europe's favor until the U.S. put boots on the ground, planes in the skies and equipment on the field in WW2.
And this was in addition to while we were at the same time fighting the Japanese in the Pacific theater which also kept Japan out of the Axis war on the European front.
Germany defeated and occupied Poland (attacked in September 1939),
Denmark (April 1940),
Norway (April 1940),
Belgium (May 1940)
the Netherlands (May 1940)
Luxembourg (May 1940),
France (May 1940),
Yugoslavia (April 1941),
and Greece (April 1941).
On June 22, 1941, Adolf Hitler launched his armies eastward in a massive invasion of the Soviet Union:

January 26, 1942 - First American forces arrive in Great Britain.
April 23, 1942 - German air raids begin against cathedral cities in Britain.
August 17, 1942 - First all-American air attack in Europe.
November 8, 1942 - Operation Torch begins (U.S. invasion of North Africa).
January 27, 1943 - First bombing raid by Americans on Germany (at Wilhelmshaven).
July 9/10 - Allies land in Sicily.
June 6, 1944 - D-Day landings on the northern coast of France.
June 27, 1944 - U.S. troops liberate Cherbourg, France.
July 18, 1944 - U.S. troops reach St. Lô, France.
September 13, 1944 - U.S. troops reach the Siegfried Line in western Germany.
December 26, 1944 - Patton relieves Bastogne.
April 1, 1945 - U.S. troops encircle Germans in the Ruhr
April 29, 1945 - U.S. 7th Army liberates Dachau.
May 7, 1945 - Unconditional surrender of all German forces to Allies.


And in more modern history do you actually really not believe that American weapons, air defense systems, missiles and Air bases have not kept Russia from continuing their creep into attacking neighboring countries?

Cherrypicking - the post.

 

[VFOURMAX1]

TIL USA won the Battle of Britain

Germany originally was trying to get total air superiority over Britain so they could successfully attempt to launch a land attack against them by way of the sea.
Seems that although Britain won that battle for the total air superiority it surely did not stop the German bombing raids against Britain. Germany just switched tactics and went to night bombing raids which eliminated the RAF fighters out of the picture.

Battle of Britain - It has been described as the first major military campaign fought entirely by air forces.[17] The British officially recognise the battle's duration as being from 10 July until 31 October 1940,
The Blitz, German (September 1940–May 1941), nighttime bombing raids against London and other British cities by Nazi Germany during World War II. The raids followed the failure of the German Luftwaffe to defeat Britain’s Royal Air Force in the Battle of Britain (July–September 1940).
April 23, 1942 - German air raids begin against cathedral cities in Britain.

 

[baldgye]

Germany originally was trying to get total air superiority over Britain so they could successfully attempt to launch a land attack against them by way of the sea.
Seems that although Britain won that battle for the total air superiority it surely did not stop the German bombing raids against Britain. Germany just switched tactics and went to night bombing raids which eliminated the RAF fighters out of the picture.

Battle of Britain - It has been described as the first major military campaign fought entirely by air forces.[17] The British officially recognise the battle's duration as being from 10 July until 31 October 1940,
The Blitz, German (September 1940–May 1941), nighttime bombing raids against London and other British cities by Nazi Germany during World War II. The raids followed the failure of the German Luftwaffe to defeat Britain’s Royal Air Force in the Battle of Britain (July–September 1940).
April 23, 1942 - German air raids begin against cathedral cities in Britain.

Look at that, you're able to read a Wikipedia article! (but still awaiting a reply to another post of mine ) ...but wait... THERE'S MORE!

The Blitz came to an effective close in May 1941 when Hitler decided to invade the Soviet Union. The Luftwaffe did not have sufficient resources to conduct a two-front war, and German aircraft were redeployed to the east.

Thanks America!

 

[Liquid]

@VFOURMAX1

Ah, so you're of the "America is the world police" persuasion. You might also want to look at the timeline of the Germany vs Soviet Union eastern front.

Here's an abridged timeline to complement your western front.

1941

Spoiler

June
Start of Operation Barbarossa, the Axis invasion of the USSR

July
Germany reaches, and captures, Latvia

August
Battle of Kiev - Soviet southwestern front completely encircled

September
Siege of Leningrad begins - it continues for three years

October
Crimea campaign begins
March on Moscow begins
First battle of Kharkov

1942

Spoiler

January
German army fails to capture Moscow

April
Second battle of Kharkov - German army in the city encircled

July
German army fails to capture Caspian oilfields

September
Battle of Stalingrad begins - it becomes the largest, bloodiest and deadliest battle in the history of any war

November
German army trapped in Stalingrad; Hungarian and Romanian armies destroyed

December
Soviet offensive ruins Axis armies and positions in Donbass and the Caucuses

1943

Spoiler

July
Battle of Kursk - Soviet victory; largest tank battle in history

August
Battle of Belgorod - Soviet victory
Battle of Smolensk - Soviet victory

September
Battle of the Dniper - Soviet victory

October
Battle of Lenino - Soviet victory

November
Second Battle of Kiev - Soviet victory

December
Carpathian offensive - Soviet army is within touching distance of Slovakia and Hungary on its southwestern front

1944

Spoiler

January
Battle of the Crimea - Soviet victory

June
German Centre Army destroyed

August
German South Army destroyed
Soviet troops reach Tallinn but cannot capture the city
German forces in Romania destroyed; Romania officially switches sides to the Allies alongside USSR
Uprisings in Poland and Slovakia begin

September
Finland signs a peace treaty with USSR

October
German North Army trapped in Courland
Battle of Belgrade - Soviet victory

December
Battle of Budapest - Soviet victory

1945

Spoiler

January
Soviet army marches through Poland towards Germany
Soviet capture of Königsberg (Kalliningrad) begins

February
Siege of Wroclaw begins

March
Balaton Offensive begins - the last German offensive
Balaton Offesive fails - Soviet army captures Vienna
Soviet army now poised to attack Germany itself from both East and South

April
Battle of Berlin - Soviet victory
Suicide of Adolf Hitler due to impending capture by USSR and capitulation of German forces

May
Unconditional surrender of German army to USSR takes place in Berlin

Nobody denies that the United States played a big part in the Allied victory in Europe. What is factually incorrect is that it was the only factor or the most important factor. It's clear to see that by 1943 the German eastern campaign had failed and the Soviet counterattack was gathering huge momentum.

Not only did the USSR inflict the most casualties on German forces but the two were involved in the largest battle in the history of warfare. That demonstrates the magnitude of the eastern front.

It doesn't take away from the American victories, it's just that USSR involvement cannot be overlooked if anyone is going to champion the "Americans won in Europe" line of thought.

 

[Scaff]

Germany had pretty much kicked most of Europe's ass before they got into it hot and heavy with Russia. As you can see by highlights below Germany did not attack Russia until after Europe was little threat themselves. If it had not been for the U.S. Germany would have just continued to bomb the U.K. until they were totally beaten into submission.
German subs basically controlled the shipping and sank most of the ships bringing in war supplies that the U.K. and Europe needed.
Again it was the addition of U.S. naval forces in the Atlantic that did a lot to turn that tide of the German subs control as well.
It is always possible as well if the U.S. had not gotten involved and not only their manpower but their much needed on the battle lines equipment of war had not started turning the tide on the western front in Europe that Germany would have been able to put more focus on defeating Russia changing that outcome as well.

Actually the AXIS mistake was Japan attacking the U.S. and getting them actively in the war.If Japan had of been smart instead and attacked Russia from the east from the lands they had conquered in China while Germany engaged them from the west that Russia with the lack of goods and military weapons and hardware needed to fight a war then Russia probably would have been in trouble.



But regardless I think the time lines pretty well back up that the tide did not turn in Europe's favor until the U.S. put boots on the ground, planes in the skies and equipment on the field in WW2.
And this was in addition to while we were at the same time fighting the Japanese in the Pacific theater which also kept Japan out of the Axis war on the European front.
Germany defeated and occupied Poland (attacked in September 1939),
Denmark (April 1940),
Norway (April 1940),
Belgium (May 1940)
the Netherlands (May 1940)
Luxembourg (May 1940),
France (May 1940),
Yugoslavia (April 1941),
and Greece (April 1941).
On June 22, 1941, Adolf Hitler launched his armies eastward in a massive invasion of the Soviet Union:

January 26, 1942 - First American forces arrive in Great Britain.
April 23, 1942 - German air raids begin against cathedral cities in Britain.
August 17, 1942 - First all-American air attack in Europe.
November 8, 1942 - Operation Torch begins (U.S. invasion of North Africa).
January 27, 1943 - First bombing raid by Americans on Germany (at Wilhelmshaven).
July 9/10 - Allies land in Sicily.
June 6, 1944 - D-Day landings on the northern coast of France.
June 27, 1944 - U.S. troops liberate Cherbourg, France.
July 18, 1944 - U.S. troops reach St. Lô, France.
September 13, 1944 - U.S. troops reach the Siegfried Line in western Germany.
December 26, 1944 - Patton relieves Bastogne.
April 1, 1945 - U.S. troops encircle Germans in the Ruhr
April 29, 1945 - U.S. 7th Army liberates Dachau.
May 7, 1945 - Unconditional surrender of all German forces to Allies.

Now try that adding in the Russian element into the timeline, as you oddly seem to have missed it. You see your own dates quite clearly show that had Germany not committed massive amounts of troops to the Eastern front in '41, then the 75% of the casualties they had would have been available on the Western front when the US arrived (along with a lot of other Allied countries troops - D-Day wasn't just American) on occupied soil a whole 3 years later.

Give the same a go with the campaign in the Pacific, remembering to add in ANZAC, Indian, British, etc. forces. As you seem to have a rather blinkered view of what went on.

And in more modern history do you actually really not believe that American weapons, air defense systems, missiles and Air bases have not kept Russia from continuing their creep into attacking neighboring countries?

I think that the combined efforts of NATO did that, not one single player and you also forget that it's a multi-directional benefit (well up until Trump pissed off Turkey and they held US nukes hostage - smart move 45).

You also forget just how well the US did in stopping that creep of communism in South East Asia, how did the superior US weapons, air defence systems and Air Bases work out then?

You also forget that the mutual defence part of NATO has only been used once in its history, and to whose aid did the rest of NATO come to? Why that would be the US's aid.

So please cut the sanctimonious, 'better than all of you' nonsense, I know 45 winds his supporters up like clockwork toys and sends them out, but it really doesn't work when it gets steamrollered by annoying little things like history and facts.

 

[VFOURMAX1]

April 23, 1942 - German air raids begin against cathedral cities in Britain.

Look at that, you're able to read a Wikipedia article! (but still awaiting a reply to another post of mine ) ...but wait... THERE'S MORE!


Thanks America!

No actually I have always had an interest in WW2 related things. I just use the online to back up my statements here concerning time lines.

Just like you quoted my quote that the bombing blitz ended in May 1941.

But you forgot to add in the bombing raids which began in April, 1942

Perhaps you should spend some time reading Wikipedia articles to get all of the story before you post just the part that seems to fit your purpose and agenda.

 

[baldgye]

Perhaps you should spend some time reading Wikipedia articles to get all of the story before you post just the part that seems to fit your purpose and agenda.

My agenda being what? The correct reading of history?

The German air offensive failed because the Luftwaffe High Command (Oberkommando der Luftwaffe, OKL) did not develop a methodical strategy for destroying British war industry. Poor intelligence about British industry and economic efficiency led to OKL concentrating on tactics rather than strategy. The bombing effort was diluted by attacks against several sets of industries instead of constant pressure on the most vital.

The last major attack on London was on 10/11 May 1941, on which the Luftwaffe flew 571 sorties and dropped 800 tonnes of bombs. This caused more than 2,000 fires; 1,436 people were killed and 1,792 seriously injured, which affected morale badly.[158] Another raid was carried out on 11/12 May 1941.[153] Westminster Abbey and the Law Courts were damaged, while the Chamber of the House of Commons was destroyed. One-third of London's streets were impassable. All but one railway station line was blocked for several weeks.[158] This raid was significant, as 63 German fighters were sent with the bombers, indicating the growing effectiveness of RAF night fighter defences.[153]

Effectiveness of bombing
The military effectiveness of bombing varied. The Luftwaffe dropped around 45,000 short tons (41,000 t) of bombs during the Blitz, which disrupted production and transport, reduced food supplies, and shook British morale. The bombing also helped to support the U-boat blockade by sinking some 58,000 long tons (59,000 t) of shipping and damaging 450,000 long tons (460,000 t) more. Despite the bombing, British production rose steadily throughout this period, although there were significant falls during April 1941, probably influenced by the departure of workers for Easter Holidays, according to the British official history. The official history volume British War Production (Postan, 1952) noted that the greatest effect on output of warlike stores was on the supply of components and dispersal of production rather than complete equipments.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Blitz

 

[Scaff]

No actually I have always had an interest in WW2 related things. I just use the online to back up my statements here concerning time lines.

Just like you quoted my quote that the bombing blitz ended in May 1941.

But you forgot to add in the bombing raids which began in April, 1942

Perhaps you should spend some time reading Wikipedia articles to get all of the story before you post just the part that seems to fit your purpose and agenda.

The Baedecker Raids in '42 were not effective and generaly considered a failure, oh and the UK had an effective night-fighter force by that point as well.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baedeker_Blitz

"By any measure, the attempt was an abject failure. In the time following the original Blitz, a little over a year earlier, the RAF had dramatically improved its night fighter capability and introduced the AMES Type 7 radar specifically for the night fighting role. Losses to the Luftwaffe's bomber force were unsustainable, and for a variety of reasons the damage to the targeted cities was minimal compared to the German bombing campaign of 1940–41, or to the contemporaneous Allied campaign against Germany. Nevertheless, the raids resulted in over 1,600 civilian deaths and tens of thousands of damaged homes."

 

[baldgye]

The Baedecker Raids in '42 were not effective and generaly considered a failure, oh and the UK had an effective night-fighter force by that point as well.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baedeker_Blitz

"By any measure, the attempt was an abject failure. In the time following the original Blitz, a little over a year earlier, the RAF had dramatically improved its night fighter capability and introduced the AMES Type 7 radar specifically for the night fighting role. Losses to the Luftwaffe's bomber force were unsustainable, and for a variety of reasons the damage to the targeted cities was minimal compared to the German bombing campaign of 1940–41, or to the contemporaneous Allied campaign against Germany. Nevertheless, the raids resulted in over 1,600 civilian deaths and tens of thousands of damaged homes."

Damn, I mean that really spells out how close to the edge Britain really was...

...the RAF's achievement of a total of 136,000 tons dropped during the year, and pointed out that a single raid on Berlin (made in the same week that the report was published) had dropped 2,480 tons, more than the entire German effort.

 

[VFOURMAX1]

Actually the AXIS mistake was Japan attacking the U.S. and getting them actively in the war.If Japan had of been smart instead and attacked Russia from the east from the lands they had conquered in China while Germany engaged them from the west that Russia with the lack of goods and military weapons and hardware needed to fight a war then Russia probably would have been in trouble.

Now try that adding in the Russian element into the timeline, as you oddly seem to have missed it. You see your own dates quite clearly show that had Germany not committed massive amounts of troops to the Eastern front in '41, then the 75% of the casualties they had would have been available on the Western front when the US arrived (along with a lot of other Allied countries troops - D-Day wasn't just American) on occupied soil a whole 3 years later.

If you notice in my prior previous quote I did reference the mistake the Axis as a whole made as far as to getting the U.S. involved in the war and as far as Russia was concerned and Japan instead of fighting the U.S. could have then forced Russia to fight a two front war. Just like the multiple fronts ended up being Germany's Achilles heel and eventually a major contributor to their defeat the very same could have played out in Russia and even more so as Russia did not have ample supplies to fight on one front really much less on two.

Give the same a go with the campaign in the Pacific, remembering to add in ANZAC, Indian, British, etc. forces. As you seem to have a rather blinkered view of what went on.

Actually here is a link to the Encyclopedia Brittannica https://www.britannica.com/topic/Pacific-War that gives a pretty good account of the WW2 Pacific theater. You will find that reading this that most references to battles or anything of major importance involves mainly U.S. Naval, U.s. ground forces and Australian ground forces. Yes the British were a part of the allies and contributed a lot to the war but they were not the main dominating factor in many parts of the war as you seem to want to suggest.

I still say without American involvement that the outcome of the war may have been decisively different.

 

[baldgye]

Without the past U.S. defense and assistance many of you over in Europe may be drinking Saki as your national drink and singing Hail to the Reich!

I still say without American involvement that the outcome of the war may have been decisively different.

No, what you claimed was that without the USA we'd have been conquered by either Nazi Germany or Imperial Japan or both? Neither of which, is true.

 

[Famine]

*claims people not from the USA can't understand or comprehend issues the USA experiences*
*lectures Europeans on European issues*

 

[Scaff]

If you notice in my prior previous quote I did reference the mistake the Axis as a whole made as far as to getting the U.S. involved in the war and as far as Russia was concerned and Japan instead of fighting the U.S. could have then forced Russia to fight a two front war. Just like the multiple fronts ended up being Germany's Achilles heel and eventually a major contributor to their defeat the very same could have played out in Russia and even more so as Russia did not have ample supplies to fight on one front really much less on two.

You failed to provide any detail about it, and certainly downplayed the Russian contribution to a massive degree.

Actually here is a link to the Encyclopedia Brittannica https://www.britannica.com/topic/Pacific-War that gives a pretty good account of the WW2 Pacific theater. You will find that reading this that most references to battles or anything of major importance involves mainly U.S. Naval, U.s. ground forces and Australian ground forces.

Damn, you actually provided a source.

Yes the British were a part of the allies and contributed a lot to the war but they were not the main dominating factor in many parts of the war as you seem to want to suggest.

I suggested no such thing, so please don't project your own issues.

I still say without American involvement that the outcome of the war may have been decisively different.

No one said any different, what we said was that the same can be said for other countries, and that Russian contributions were the largest, you don't cause 75% of all German losses without being the biggest factor in that regard.

 

[MatskiMonk]

Team America.. World Police... **** YEAH! Gonna save the ************ day yeah! 'MURICA.

 

[VFOURMAX1]

*lectures Europeans on European issues*

Here we have a European that acts as if he never lectures Americans about American issues especially American politics. Please!!!!

 

[Famine]

Here we have a European that acts as if he never lectures Americans about American issues especially American politics. Please!!!!

I definitely take part in discussions on US issues, but I don't tell Americans that they can't understand or comprehend European issues because they're Americans...


Turns out that being right or wrong is not contingent on geographical distance from the issue. Imagine!

 

[Scaff]

Here we have a European that acts as if he never lectures Americans about American issues especially American politics. Please!!!!

Don't quote mine, it's really not a good look.

 

[TexRex]

Heh.

 

[UKMikey]

It's been a while since I've seen someone so decisively owned on multiple threads simultaneously. Time to post some more right wing memes on the cartoon thread and play to the crowd, perhaps.

 

[VFOURMAX1]

It's been a while since I've seen someone so decisively owned on multiple threads simultaneously

Major difference in being owned vs. my being entertained by kicking the nest of you peoples little kissing each others butt club and laughing at how much you get riled up! Classic entertainment I say oh boy!

 

[Scaff]

Major difference in being owned vs. my being entertained by kicking the nest of you peoples little kissing each others butt club and laughing at how much you get riled up! Classic entertainment I say oh boy!

Riled up?

Nah, didn't even break a sweat, easiest few days of debunking in a long time.

 

[TexRex]

Major difference in being owned vs. my being entertained by kicking the nest of you peoples little kissing each others butt club and laughing at how much you get riled up! Classic entertainment I say oh boy!

Translation: "no u"

This is like watching a building implode.

 

[Rallywagon]

Major difference in being owned vs. my being entertained by kicking the nest of you peoples little kissing each others butt club and laughing at how much you get riled up! Classic entertainment I say oh boy!

Werent you just being a snowflake about people picking on you? And here you are admitting to trying to pick on people here. The level of hypocrisy you work at seems fitting for someone that supports Trump though.

 

[baldgye]

>posts falsehoods
>argues about it with multiple people for hours
>gets debunked
>only did it for the luls guys I’m actually laughing.... honest

 

[MatskiMonk]

Major difference in being owned vs. my being entertained by kicking the nest of you peoples little kissing each others butt club and laughing at how much you get riled up! Classic entertainment I say oh boy!

You have self-demonstrated your propensity for indoctrination when you went anti-gay because the bible is what you were taught. I personally wouldn't respect a goddamn thing you post because you're nothing but a mouthpiece for those that you let control you, but in this instance the American desire to worship your Nationalistic value, the Stars and stripes, God and guns, and all that other ***** that's the American dream, is pretty face-palm worthy. My Grandfather shipped out to the Pacific theatre with the RAF to put his life on the line because you lot got ****** in the **** **** by the Japanese... who you then mass-murdered and occupied. #JustSayin', I'm pretty sure he didn't do that so some **** could lord it over other nations 70 odd years later, which is what you seem to think your countrymen did.

 

[VFOURMAX1]

You have self-demonstrated your propensity for indoctrination when you went anti-gay because the bible is what you were taught. I personally wouldn't respect a goddamn thing you post because you're nothing but a mouthpiece for those that you let control you,

You are right I do not approve of a gay lifestyle and yes I was raised in a home where the bible was important and that I am actually very proud of and never try to hide it.

But the neat part is that the point of my life I am at no one else controls me, my thoughts or opinions. I am retired, I answer to no bosses, I have no need for an alarm clock, My income is secure and adequate for my needs, my home is paid for and I have not had any debt or taken out any sort of loan or carried any sort of credit card balance for over 20 years.

I pay my taxes, I pay my bills and I follow the laws of this country to the best of my abilities, always have and I have absolutely nothing to be ashamed of.

And one more point is I could really care less about what you respect, what you like, what you do not like or what you think of me or my opinions or outlooks and that goes for any other internet forum warrior as well for that matter.

 

[TexRex]

...I follow the laws of this country to the best of my abilities...

"This isn't a thing. The law doesn't care about your abilities. The law is the law and not following it as it is written makes you a criminal, criminal!" -- literally you in another thread

 

[mustafur]

and one more point is I could really care less about what you respect,

How much less could you care?

 

[VFOURMAX1]

"This isn't a thing. The law doesn't care about your abilities. The law is the law and not following it as it is written makes you a criminal, criminal!" -- literally you in another thread

Hilarious coming from someone that supports illegal aliens and sanctuary cities to be concerned whether some on may break the law and be a criminal.

And actually I added the "to the best of my ability" to cover in case I accidentally may be running 27 mph in a 25 mph zone while driving down the road.
One of you jokers would bring up something like that if I had not included in my response a chance for any exceptions.