Europe - The Official Thread

[Monatsende]

At the end all the money goes to German banks. (Heard that Spanish and Portuguesian people start to transfer their money already.)

 

[XoravaX]

Somehow the crisis reminds me of Thatcher's words:
"They're a weak lot, some of them in Europe, you know. Weak, feeble."

Seriously, if the people have voted for irresponsible politicians who have driven their countries on the verge of bankruptcy it's the people's fault. How is Germany (& NL, Finland) to blame for their own mistakes? Apart from Cyprus and Ireland (they were dragged with because of their economy's reliance on the respective financial situation, and due to insufficient control), it looks like it's the politicians who've caused the whole crisis.

 

[Hun200kmh]

Untermensch (German for under man, sub-man, sub-human; plural: Untermenschen) is a term that became infamous when the Nazi racial ideology used it to describe "inferior people", especially "the masses from the East," that is Jews, Gypsies, and Slavic peoples including Poles, Serbs, Belarusians, Russians and Rusyns.[citation needed]
In the case of Slavs, exceptions to this rule were permitted only for certain Slavic people who were deemed to have significant Aryan traits, were to be Germanized, but people who resisted Germanization would be considered inferior. Racial theorists working for the Schutzstaffel (SS) under Reichsführer SS Heinrich Himmler, considered some portions within Slavic nations such as Czechs, Poles and Slovenes, to have significant Aryan heritage to be the sufficient subjects for Germanisation.[1] However, it was believed that for instance the Polish people were too patriotic and would ultimately resist Germanisation, what resulted in the Generalplan Ost, according to which all of the Slavs from East-Central Europe with the emphasis on the Poles, were destined to be expelled from the European continent by the Third Reich. Nevertheless, the Nazi Germans eventually decided to exterminate the Poles, so as the vast majority of the Slavic people who, along with the Jews and Gypsies, were defined as Untermenschen, dangerous for the Germanic peoples representing the master race.[2]

What goes around comes around I guess. All peoples in this Earth at some point considered others to be inferior. You know, weak, feeble. I guess portuguese and spanish rulers of old spent a few centuries thinking exactly that about the peoples from northern Europe.

People will never learn.

 

[Tired Tyres]

Looking at Cyprus, it seems we Irish got off pretty lightly.

Unless you're next for the 40% theft/tax/levy!

This won't end until we have all paid for the Banks screw ups ourselves.

 

[XoravaX]

What goes around comes around I guess. All peoples in this Earth at some point considered others to be inferior. You know, weak, feeble. I guess portuguese and spanish rulers of old spent a few centuries thinking exactly that about the peoples from northern Europe.

People will never learn.

Whew, calm down. Thatcher was referring to some countries (that are weak), not nations or peoples. Which was also my own intention in that, the financial crisis just proved the weakness, that some countries can't even stand on their own.

We had our own financial crisis in the 90's because of the collapse of the Soviet Union. Previously we were able to buy cheap raw materials from them and sell final products back to them at a lot higher price than what was the value of the raw materials. Due to Finland being the only Western trading partner of the Soviets, we were able to make a nice profit out of it while unsustainably keeping all industry in our own country. When they collapsed, suddenly it was no longer profitable to keep the factories here, which led to a financial collapse. Large budget cuts were made and taxes were risen, but we made out of it ourselves. Sure, there was a rise in suicide numbers and large unemployment, but we managed it on our own, even without large protests and strikes.

It just feels absurd that we have to pay for your people's mistakes (voting for irresponsible politicians etc.), in the light of that we had to survive completely on our own in a similar situation. Even worse, your people protest against that we help them with reasonable terms - don't they realise what would happen if we didn't help at all?

 

[Luminis]

Somehow the crisis reminds me of Thatcher's words:
"They're a weak lot, some of them in Europe, you know. Weak, feeble."

Seriously, if the people have voted for irresponsible politicians who have driven their countries on the verge of bankruptcy it's the people's fault. How is Germany (& NL, Finland) to blame for their own mistakes? Apart from Cyprus and Ireland (they were dragged with because of their economy's reliance on the respective financial situation, and due to insufficient control), it looks like it's the politicians who've caused the whole crisis.

Well, to be quite fair, politicians tend to preach one thing during elections and do whatever afterwards. Also, the masses are dumb. I'd say that it's a fact that one human being is intelligent, but larger numbers are dumb as hell.

Whenever I talk to someone about fiscal politics and stuff like that, all they're seeing is how it affects them immediately. Tex raises? Government is stealing their money. That that money is going towards sustaining a status quo that everybody likes, that's something that's beyond a lot of folks. Everybody wants more for themselves. More money, more freedom, more security. It's case of having the cake and eating it, too, in my opinion.

Everybody wants more money and whatnot and whomever promissed that will get elected. And if that politician gives that to the people, he'll be re-elected. It's altogether unpopular to tell your people that you actually have to take some of their wealth away in order to sustain most of it for longer periods of time. And that's natural, I suppose.

Germany still is in pretty good shape, partially because unpopular decisions have been made by some politicians. Fact is, though, that that would never have happened if the people had had it their way. Let's be honest, most people don't understand economy beyond "government takes my money = bad", so how can anyone expect democracy to work well based on that? It simply doesn't if people are too dumb to reign themselves.

That might sound harsh, but that's what I keep seeing day after day. Politicians finally decide some stuff that's actually necessary and the backlash is, well, immense because people can't think past their own wallet and the next weak. What good is a tax cut if you'd need that money to stabilize the economy? What's better, paying less taxes in 2014 or having a more secure job for the next five years? A lot of people can't even begin to understand that their might be a connection between the two, much less that the government isn't always out to rob you.

To be quite honest, a lot of the issues Germany had to deal with over the last couple of years have been caused by previous governments avoiding unpopular decisions at all coasts - which solidifies my position on the whole matter: It's natural for politians to make dumb decisions because they only care about short-term effects. Which is pretty much a given when most of the voters only care about short-term effects, due to them being unable to think past their own wallet and the next one or two years.

 

[kikie]

New development so I'm reviving this thread.

The IMF treatens with a new tax(ation) in 15 European countries. The IMF want to implement a new once-only tax of 10% on all the savings of everybody how has a savings account.

So if some-one has €500,000 in his savings account, he or she will have to pay a tax of €50,000.


This is scandalous, outrageous, disgraceful, shameful.

 

[Touring Mars]

Source?

 

[kikie]

It's a Dutch text and that is why I didn't write a link to the article. It's possible that this article will be removed very quickly because I also read that the IMF don't want people to know about this new tax. IMF is afraid that there will be a flight of capital.

http://www.hln.be/hln/nl/3424/Econo...F-wil-supertaks-heffen-op-ons-spaargeld.dhtml

IMF choqueert met ideetje van 10% superbelasting op spaargeld

Het Internationaal Monetair Fonds (IMF) laat een provocerend proefbalonnetje op met het idee om een eenmalige taks van 10% op de privévermogens in de westerse landen te heffen. Als die taks in 15 eurolanden zou worden ingevoerd - wat het IMF niet zomaar kan opleggen - zou de schuldenberg van de westers landen terugvallen tot het peil van voor de financiële crisis, luidt het. De Franse site Le Figaro en het Belgische express.be meldden dit gisteren als eerste en wij namen het in deze kolommen over. Maar het verhaal is iets genuanceerder.

In het rapport 'Fiscal Monitor', dat 106 bladzijden telt, staat een opmerkelijk kadertje met de titel 'Een eenmalige belasting?'. Het IMF merkt erin op dat er een hernieuwde belangstelling is ontstaan voor zo'n supertaks. De schuldenberg van de meeste westerse landen is de voorbije jaren toegenomen, en een kant-en-klare oplossing is niet meteen voorhanden. De economie, zeker in Europa, blijft op een te laag peil om die schuldenberg af te bouwen. Vandaar het idee van het IMF.

Het fonds beseft dat dergelijke drastische maatregel aan strikte voorwaarden zal moeten voldoen. "Een uitzonderlijke taks moet snel ingevoerd worden, zodat er geen ontsnappen mogelijk is. Anders dreigt een kapitaalvlucht die de hele economie kan ontwrichten. Daarnaast moet duidelijk benadrukt worden dat de taks éénmalig is en niet meer herhaald zal worden. Anders gaan de mensen hun gedrag aanpassen."

Previous article from yesterday has already been removed from their database.

IMF choqueert met ideetje van 10% superbelasting op spaargeld

© getty.

Het Internationaal Monetair Fonds (IMF) laat een provocerend proefbalonnetje op met het idee om een eenmalige taks van 10% op de privévermogens in de westerse landen te heffen. Als die taks in 15 eurolanden zou worden ingevoerd - wat het IMF niet zomaar kan opleggen - zou de schuldenberg van de westers landen terugvallen tot het peil van voor de financiële crisis, luidt het. De Franse site Le Figaro en het Belgische express.be meldden dit gisteren als eerste en wij namen het in deze kolommen over. Maar het verhaal is iets genuanceerder.
In het rapport 'Fiscal Monitor', dat 106 bladzijden telt, staat een opmerkelijk kadertje met de titel 'Een eenmalige belasting?'. Het IMF merkt erin op dat er een hernieuwde belangstelling is ontstaan voor zo'n supertaks. De schuldenberg van de meeste westerse landen is de voorbije jaren toegenomen, en een kant-en-klare oplossing is niet meteen voorhanden. De economie, zeker in Europa, blijft op een te laag peil om die schuldenberg af te bouwen. Vandaar het idee van het IMF.

Het fonds beseft dat dergelijke drastische maatregel aan strikte voorwaarden zal moeten voldoen. "Een uitzonderlijke taks moet snel ingevoerd worden, zodat er geen ontsnappen mogelijk is. Anders dreigt een kapitaalvlucht die de hele economie kan ontwrichten. Daarnaast moet duidelijk benadrukt worden dat de taks éénmalig is en niet meer herhaald zal worden. Anders gaan de mensen hun gedrag aanpassen."

http://m.hln.be/hln/m/nl/3424/Econo...spaargeld.dhtml?originatingNavigationItemId=1

Found an English text:

IMF Discusses A Super Tax Of 10% On All Savings In Eurozone
October 10, 2013
One of the latest reports from the IMF discusses a super taxation of 10% on savings in the Eurozone. That would solve the debt problem in most sovereign countries. It would be an alternative of higher taxes or spending cuts.
The economists that have written the paper hasten to say that it is a theoretical proposal. Still, it appears to be “an efficient solution” for the debt problem. For a group of 15 European countries such a measure would bring the debt ratio to “acceptable” levels, i.e. comparable to levels before the 2008 crisis.
The idea of a taxation on savings is not new. The Boston Consultancy Group had proposed a similar idea back in 2011, although with a taxation of 30%. In April 2011, Saxo’s head economist proposed a 10 to 15% savings tax.
It is rather unusual to let savers pay, but at the same time it is an attractive idea, says the IMF economists. “If it is introduced before people are able to withdraw and given that it is clear it is a one-time tax, then it should not have disturbing effects on people. It could be seen as a “fair” measure.”

(Original source: dutch media site NOS.nl)

http://goldsilverworlds.com/money-c...a-super-tax-of-10-on-all-savings-in-eurozone/

 

[TheCracker]

Ummm... This isn't really a 'threat' by the IMF, it's more of a suggestion from a non-European consultancy firm.

It's like me suggesting that a work colleague starts coming to work naked to save on laundry costs.

 

[Johnnypenso]

Ummm... This isn't really a 'threat' by the IMF, it's more of a suggestion from a non-European consultancy firm.

It's like me suggesting that a work colleague starts coming to work naked to save on laundry costs.

I'd say it's more like, "Hey, if we can somehow manage to do this it'll only punish the wealthy so the little guy will be happy, it's a convenient and cheap source of revenue, we tell them it's "one time only" so they don't realize we will just do it each time we have a crisis. Let's see if we can find a way to make this happen!"

 

[kikie]

Ummm... This isn't really a 'threat' by the IMF, it's more of a suggestion from a non-European consultancy firm.

It's like me suggesting that a work colleague starts coming to work naked to save on laundry costs.

That was the case in 2011 (Boston Consulting Group). This time it really is a "threat" by the IMF. It is the IMF that suggests such a tax, not a non-European consutancy firm.

 

[Touring Mars]

The English article you link to says "The economists who wrote the paper hasten to say that it is a theoretical proposal" so I'm not sure how merely mentioning the possibility of a levy on savings constitutes a threat...

 

[Hun200kmh]

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052702304520704579125992179402398.html#articleTabs=article

Mario Draghi has - rightfully - a lot to brag about, but the euro is far from being a "done deal". Maybe the biggest strength of the euro is that there's no "turning back" from it without great costs for all involved. So even the big and more solid economies will press on to keep it. But that hardly makes the euro atracttive to countries that are still using their own currency. They may get the wrong end of the stick when the eurozone is doing good and the euro itself is stable, but they'll remain (relatively) safe from "eurozone crisis".

Anyway, for a balanced view, here a "eurosceptic" comment to that piece of news that I found worthy of sharing here

Well, Mr. Draghi is the one and only person that solved the problem of Spanish and Italian bonds soaring to unsustainable levels, which would certainly have caused the breakup of the monetary union. Of course he got a little bit of help of Mrs Merkel, who didn't oppose him (too much at least) when threatening to do "everything" to save the Euro. Of course, there was some discussion on how much of "everything" there would be in his mandate, but his words proved sufficient to stave off an escalation of the sovereign debt crisis. So, he certainly deserves a big applause as president of the ECB,

Now, the success may have made Mr. Draghi overconfident that bluffing not only works in the financial world, but also in politics. The political will in the EU countries (or nations as some prefer) to live in harmony and create a single market where people, goods and services move freely, is certainly there. But it has nothing to do with the Euro. For instance, unemployment, the biggest worry of people in countries like Spain, is lower in the EU28 as a whole than in the Euro zone.

The austerity measures have caused deep social problems in Southern Europe, and, as a consequence, outrage against Brussels and Berlin. Portraying Mrs. Merkel with a mustache and a swastika, and hateful comments of Southern Europeans about Germans in the press, is not a sign of good harmony between "debtors" and "creditors".

Mr. Draghi seems to deliberately deny the steep fall in support of the Euro zone population, especially for the Euro project, but also for deeper integration in Northern Europe, who fear losing democratic control over their budget, just like in Southern Europe. May be he is confident that he can bluff support for the Euro up before the European Parliament elections in May 2014.

Mr. Draghi and many EU politicians in favor of further integration are busy campaigning messages of optimism on the successes of the Euro project and austerity measures, like in Spain, even though it's evident that it will take many years before private and public debts, unemployment rate and economic growth will reach sound levels.

They have also started demonizing critics of the Euro project and further integration as being xenophobes or right or left wing extremists, but one of the critics is former member of the European Commission Frits Bolkestein, known for the directive of his name on the internal market, who warns that Europe is slowly driven towards a situation that is not supported by its population, which may end in disaster.

In short, Europe is divided into believers and non-believers. Draghi and his friends should pray that no economic or financial calamities happen before the European elections!

This would be fascinating (we see History in the making, and Mr. Draghi won his place on it) if it didn't mess about with our lives. Well, with mine at least

 

[kikie]

A "threat" is probably a little bit exaggerated but you can consider this news about a 10% tax as a threat for your savings. I'm not saying that the IMF is going to implement this tax but the fact that they are thinking about it feels like some sort of threat to me.

How would you feel if they turn this theoretical proposal into a new tax law and you have to pay 10% of your savings? Doesn't that feel a little bit as a threat?

The IMF probably won't be able to get this new tax law approved but never say never.

 

[Touring Mars]

I'm not in the Eurozone, so I don't really care

In any case, it's quite old news given that this sort of thing was discussed during the financial crisis in Cyprus, and as the report itself points out, it's happened many times before in European history, albeit under slightly more drastic circumstances (e.g. postwar Germany)... but the fact that it might happen doesn't mean that it will, or that it would be a good idea... somehow I doubt that very much. Also, since when did the IMF call the shots anyway...?

 

[kikie]

I'm not in the Eurozone, so I don't really care

Fair enough. I wouldn't care either if I wasn't living in the Eurozone.

In any case, it's quite old news given that this sort of thing was discussed during the financial crisis in Cyprus, and as the report itself points out, it's happened many times before in European history, albeit under slightly more drastic circumstances (e.g. postwar Germany)... but the fact that it might happen doesn't mean that it will, or that it would be a good idea... somehow I doubt that very much. Also, since when did the IMF call the shots anyway...?

AFAIK, this is not the same as what was discussed during the Cyprus financial crisis. It was the intention to make "savers" help saving a bank if a bank should go bankrupt.

In this case, the IMF wants to take 10% of the savings of every saver in those 15 European countries. This has nothing to do with banks going bankrupt. This is about to bring the financial crisis back to the level of 2007, to help to lessen the national debt of certain European countries.

The IMF doesn't call the shots. But if the IMF lobbies hard enough, get enough European politician behind this idea, they might get this tax legal and implemented.

 

[Hun200kmh]

The IMF doesn't call the shots. But if the IMF lobbies hard enough, get enough European politician behind this idea, they might get this tax legal and implemented.

Politically this would be a disaster so it won't happen. Remember, there's no such thing as "european politicians". You have each country's politicians (elected by their people alone) and then you have european bureaucrats. And even if I can concede that to a degree you have people from all countries still thinking some kind of inter-european solidarity is acceptable, I'm pretty sure that no german (or from any other country without financial difficulties) will accept that a part of his/her savings is to be taken away.

Won't happen. Fiscal measures over income maybe, up to a point. Fiscal measures over savings, no way.

 

[kikie]

Politically this would be a disaster so it won't happen. Remember, there's no such thing as "european politicians". You have each country's politicians (elected by their people alone) and then you have european bureaucrats. And even if I can concede that to a degree you have people from all countries still thinking some kind of inter-european solidarity is acceptable, I'm pretty sure that no german (or from any other country without financial difficulties) will accept that a part of his/her savings is to be taken away.

Won't happen. Fiscal measures over income maybe, up to a point. Fiscal measures over savings, no way.

Really?

 

[Dotini]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/...y-shock-as-BRICS-puncture-credit-bubbles.html

For GTP'ers with a taste for big words, graphs and numbers.

 

[Touring Mars]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/...y-shock-as-BRICS-puncture-credit-bubbles.html

For GTP'ers with a taste for big words, graphs and numbers.

I've already browsed my 20 free Telegraph webpages this month - I'll have to wait until I get home and view the website on my home computer

 

[Liquid]

One point I'd like to make. Not a major one, but somewhat important.

Why is Greece in so much trouble? Its Government has no money to pay for its obligations. Why doesn't it have enough money? Oh, a variety of reasons but one reason which could quite easily be remedied is by installing ticket barriers on the Athens Metro, a nationalised service as all Greek public transport is.

As you can see, there is literally nothing stopping you waltzing through without a ticket.

Ticket offices are staffed at every stop, but they don't challenge anybody who walks past them and onto the platforms without validating a ticket.

Tickets are cheap. Just €1.40 for a ticket which is good for 90 minutes and provides travel on any of the three lines of the Athens Metro. But I dread to think how little income the Government actually receives.

Surely, they'd go someway to alleviating their problems if they actually installed barriers? This to me is an example of not really trying to solve your problems. Or, as a Greek friend said to me, the Greek government allows its people to be corrupt.

 

[GT5Power]

It's true, our government sucks.

 

[Dotini]

...the faltering global recovery after the 2008 financial crisis may now be in jeopardy, particularly in Europe.

...concerns that Europe could sink into recession and the European Central Bank might have limited ability to do anything about it. “Investors are questioning the E.C.B.’s efforts to stabilize the European economy,” Mr. Fink said. “We need a more expansionary fiscal policy from Germany,”
http://dealbook.nytimes.com/2014/10/15/stocks-tumble-on-global-growth-worries/

Many of the problems that nearly tore the eurozone asunder two years ago remain unresolved. And there are some new ones to worry about, including the conflict in Ukraine, persistent fears of deflation and a sharp rise in support for right-wing populist parties that would like to throw the euro on the junk heap. This time, Germany — usually the eurozone’s biggest economic force, but now stumbling — seems to be the focus of fear, loathing and blame.

...reasons to worry about the global economy. They included slowing growth in China, the stagnant Japanese economy, Russia and renewed signs of trouble in Latin America.Continue reading the main story
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/10/17/b...renewed-economic-crisis-polarizes-europe.html

 

[eran0004]

One point I'd like to make. Not a major one, but somewhat important.

Why is Greece in so much trouble? Its Government has no money to pay for its obligations. Why doesn't it have enough money? Oh, a variety of reasons but one reason which could quite easily be remedied is by installing ticket barriers on the Athens Metro, a nationalised service as all Greek public transport is.

As you can see, there is literally nothing stopping you waltzing through without a ticket.

Ticket offices are staffed at every stop, but they don't challenge anybody who walks past them and onto the platforms without validating a ticket.

Tickets are cheap. Just €1.40 for a ticket which is good for 90 minutes and provides travel on any of the three lines of the Athens Metro. But I dread to think how little income the Government actually receives.

Surely, they'd go someway to alleviating their problems if they actually installed barriers? This to me is an example of not really trying to solve your problems. Or, as a Greek friend said to me, the Greek government allows its people to be corrupt.

I can't see the pictures, but the system you describe sounds just like the way the S-Bahn and U-Bahn works in Hamburg. Spent a month there this summer, never had to show my ticket to anyone.

I don't think metro barriers is even remotely relevant to the Eurozone crisis. The national debth of Greece was 400 billion US dollars in year 2010, which was 143% of it's GDP, or roughly 200 billion Athens Metro tickets.

Lending and borrowing habits, stacking debts, government bailouts and businesses going bankrupt is probably the root to the problems, and the rigidity (or lack of flexibility) of the Euro system makes it harder to correct the course on a national level. Sort of like the way Titanic had difficulties turning away from the iceberg.

As I remember it, the lack of being able to adjust our own currency to the economic situation was an important argument in the referendum we (Sweden) held that said no to join the Euro. Of course, we're still not free do to what we'd like since we have other financial agreements with the EU, but at least our currency is allowed to float independently of the Euro (which I imagine is a good thing, keeping in mind the metaphore of the Eurozone being like the Titanic).

 

[Keef]

One point I'd like to make. Not a major one, but somewhat important.

Why is Greece in so much trouble? Its Government has no money to pay for its obligations. Why doesn't it have enough money? Oh, a variety of reasons but one reason which could quite easily be remedied is by installing ticket barriers on the Athens Metro, a nationalised service as all Greek public transport is.

As you can see, there is literally nothing stopping you waltzing through without a ticket.

Ticket offices are staffed at every stop, but they don't challenge anybody who walks past them and onto the platforms without validating a ticket.

Tickets are cheap. Just €1.40 for a ticket which is good for 90 minutes and provides travel on any of the three lines of the Athens Metro. But I dread to think how little income the Government actually receives.

Surely, they'd go someway to alleviating their problems if they actually installed barriers? This to me is an example of not really trying to solve your problems. Or, as a Greek friend said to me, the Greek government allows its people to be corrupt.

But how in the world would people afford that ticket price when none of them have jobs because they're Greek? And those who do, they only work like 3 days a week, right?

 

[Liquid]

I can't see the pictures, but the system you describe sounds just like the way the S-Bahn and U-Bahn works in Hamburg. Spent a month there this summer, never had to show my ticket to anyone.

I don't think metro barriers is even remotely relevant to the Eurozone crisis. The national debth of Greece was 400 billion US dollars in year 2010, which was 143% of it's GDP, or roughly 200 billion Athens Metro tickets.

At no point did I say that ticket barriers will 'solve' Greece's problems. What I did say is that they aren't trying hard enough to collect government revenue that the government is completely entitled to. It's just something I noticed whilst living there.

At some basic level you have to say that if you're not even bothering to collect revenue from your own state owned public transport companies, you are not even trying to solve your sovereign debt problems.

You can't have ticket machines operating on loyalty and camaraderie. They can be easily improved and managed. Easily. But no-one's doing it.

But how in the world would people afford that ticket price when none of them have jobs because they're Greek? And those who do, they only work like 3 days a week, right?

Less than a buck fifty for any journey on any network on any transport, valid for 90 minutes in any direction possible. Certainly affordable. 5 day week for anyone who has a job, same as elsewhere.

You can be flippant and funny about it, Keef, but the reality is that it's a grave problem. Great if you're not invested or involved, not so great if you are.

How unfortunate that America still has a double A credit rating despite being trillions upon trillions in debt.

 

[Keef]

I apologize that the American stereotype of modern Greek society is that it's lazy as hell. The fact that they don't even put ticket barriers in their metro stations and the employees don't do anything about it is a beautiful example of this.

I also find a 5 day work week hilarious. Over here, we work when he have to to finish the job. Over there, it's illegal to work on weekends. Jesus. It almost makes you wonder: It matters so little on the world stage that is it really worth fixing? Do they even care if it gets fixed? I'm not even talking about government or credit ratings, I'm talking about society at large. Here, people still arrive from around the world, legal or illegal, to work, not to go on vacation.

 

[Imari]

I apologize that the American stereotype of modern Greek society is that it's lazy as hell. The fact that they don't even put ticket barriers in their metro stations and the employees don't do anything about it is a beautiful example of this.

You'd be surprised how many countries have a remarkably similar system.

 

[eran0004]

At some basic level you have to say that if you're not even bothering to collect revenue from your own state owned public transport companies, you are not even trying to solve your sovereign debt problems.

No, you can't say that. The public transportation system is not an indicator of the economic policy, especially since it's not the government that runs the metro.

Also, according to wikipedia, there are frequent ticket controls and if you're caught without a valid ticket you'd have to pay 60 times the price of a standard ticket. That's enough to motivate most people to get a valid ticket, and those who aren't, well, if one is being caught he pays for 59 others that got away with it.