Explosion in Manchester UK

[Scaff]

Big fan of immigrants?

Given my wife's family are immigrants that would be a yes.

However I'm not stupid enough to treat any group of people as a single homogeneous unit.

Hmm it seems I will never be able to understand the logic of letting our country be at the mercy of boogeymen because we are too scared to investigate what drives individuals to attack us so flagrantly.

Puzzling indeed

Who said we should do that?

 

[x3ra]

so you decimate Isis then decimate Assad? Since when has Assad been a problem to the uk?

 

[prisonermonkeys]

Ow, my brain cells!

 

[Dotini]

so you decimate Isis then decimate Assad? Since when has Assad been a problem to the uk?

Assad panders to minorities like Shia, Alawite, Druze, Yazidi, Kurdish, Christians, and seculars who like to shave and drink alcohol, and women who like to wear make-up and western clothing. He should be knuckling under to the majority Sunni. Therefore his existence is an affront to the UK, US, France and other states which hold values higher than mere interests. Assad must go.

 

[x3ra]

Sarcasm Dot ?

 

[TenEightyOne]

decimate Assad?

You're going to remove one tenth of Assad? That's your plan?

 

[Famine]

I get the impression that you guys are almost talking at cross purposes here - evidently it is not much use to write a detailed obituary about a suicide bomber in the hope that 'he won't do it again!'... but there are aspects of this guy's activities that should have (and for some people did) raise alarm bells.

I agree, but for the overwhelming majority of the public, it's irrelevant. The only people it's relevant to did, by all accounts, do something about it - and since they knew his activities already and were in his close social circle, they don't really get any benefit from being told his name, where he's from, who his parents are and where he went recently either.

If I'd been standing outside the arena at 10.30pm on Monday, I'd have seen someone probably waiting for kids or a girlfriend outside a concert that they took them to, but couldn't stomach going to themselves. I wouldn't have seen a second generation immigrant who recently travelled to a country on the terror watchlist and was known to terrorism officers, having been reported by his family and local religious officials, because these guys don't wear badges that say that (which is unreasonable; I mean, I still have an Icelandic flag pin on my winter coat having gone there in 2007). His being there wouldn't have raised any suspicion to me. Sure, if he'd had a trigger with a flashing red button in his hand, I might have thought it was a bit funny, but I don't need to know his name and travel itinerary to make the connections at that point.


The news releasing the information doesn't help anyone who gets information from the news. Family and friends already know it and it's not useful for anyone else - the next set of family and friends will already know if someone's behaving strangely.

Except racists who want to use it to show that the Muslims are at it again and Da'esh who want to use it to show that the West always blames the Muslims.

 

[Carbonox]

You're going to remove one tenth of Assad? That's your plan?

Beat me to it... though I was going to question the concept of removing exactly one tenth of ISIS.

 

[Dotini]

Hurrdurr, A lot of people travel to Syria. Hurrdurr.

Now the Manchester police themselves are affirming the bomber had made trips to Syria.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/manchester-suicide-bomber-likely-part-151453324.html

Manchester suicide bomber likely part of a network

Yahoo News Video•May 24, 2017


Authorities in Manchester, England, say that Salman Abedi, the 22-year-old resident who carried out Monday night's attack at Manchester Arena, was likely part of a network. Abedi, who was known to authorities, had made trips to Syria, an ISIS stronghold, and Libya. At one point his parents reportedly took away his passport over worries of radicalization. The terrorist attack, which ISIS has claimed responsibility for, was the deadliest in Britain since 2005.

 

[polysmut]

You're going to remove one tenth of Assad? That's your plan?

Beat me to it... though I was going to question the concept of removing exactly one tenth of ISIS.

While I share that language pet peeve, it's unjustified.

 

[BobK]

You're going to remove one tenth of Assad? That's your plan?

I think he meant we're going to tax ISIS then Assad.

 

[huskeR32]

Hmm it seems I will never be able to understand the logic of letting our country be at the mercy of boogeymen because we are too scared to investigate what drives individuals to attack us so flagrantly.

Have you read a word of what he's actually said to you?

 

[TenEightyOne]

While I share that language pet peeve, it's unjustified.

Unfortunately, while you are right, that page has got itself somewhat discombobulated. Tithing is the act of managing a group of 10 taxables, not necessarily destroying them. Strange article from a usually-strong source

 

[polysmut]

Unfortunately, while you are right, that page has got itself somewhat discombobulated. Tithing is the act of managing a group of 10 taxables, not necessarily destroying them. Strange article from a usually-strong source

The strength, or not, of the article notwithstanding, the fluidity of language leaves our peave somewhat in the past.

 

[Famine]

Anti-Muslim 'hate crimes' double in Manchester following the attack.

 

[MUSC4EVER]

Three more arrests made bringing the total to 11, they are now satisfied that they have the 'key players' of the network in custody so the threat level will be coming down to severe and the number of armed police and army personnel in public will gradually fade from Monday morning.

 

[Dotini]

Anti-Muslim 'hate crimes' double in Manchester following the attack.

​

On the other hand, I listened to BBC radio just a few minutes ago interviewing Muslims from Manchester extolling their community, and calling for the deportation of those who would countenance bombing.

 

[Famine]

On the other hand

Either you used the wrong phrase or don't know what that means, as your post is not a counterpoint in any way.

 

[Dotini]

Either you used the wrong phrase or don't know what that means, as your post is not a counterpoint in any way.

As a corollary, one of the Muslims interviewed did mention being spit upon. But the point of the BBC piece was the solidarity of Manchester and the good fit most of the Muslim made.

In Portland, Oregon, one of the most progressive and liberal cities and states in the Union, two citizens were knifed to death after trying to interfere with a white man raging against Muslims seated nearby.
https://www.yahoo.com/finance/news/2-people-stabbed-death-confronting-031928013.html

I enjoy living in Seattle, another super liberal city. We have a significant and visible Muslim community here in the prosperous north end of town. Muslim crimes and Muslim hate crimes are virtually unheard of.

 

[UKMikey]

@Dotini, the above story has already been covered on the America thread.

 

[Dotini]

@Dotini, the above story has already been covered on the America thread.

I thought mention of it was a good fit in this thread. Manchester is not the only enlightened, liberal city in the western world struggling with such issues as this thread is. We are all in this together, and it our collective work that will get us out of this mess.

 

[Johnnypenso]

Anti-Muslim 'hate crimes' double in Manchester following the attack.

​

I clicked the link thinking I'd read about people being assaulted with clubs and cricket bats. If the worst thing that happens is a few more people get called names and someone gets some spray paint on a building, I'd say we're in pretty good shape. Of course I have to add the caveat that it's not acceptable so no one assumes I condone this type of behaviour, but on the grand scale of things, name calling is pretty much at the low end of criminal offenses.

 

[Lizard]

This matches everything I was told at uni. By both books and all my lecturers.

Of course I already know @Carbonox thinks I am nuts and these people are just born evil or something but these people do this for a reason. It's as bad as saying we joined WW2 to save the Jews, no it was power politics. We just saved the Jews as we took the land the camps were on.

 

[TRGTspecialist]

Of course I have to add the caveat that it's not acceptable so no one assumes I condone this type of behaviour

Sure - interesting though how the rhetoric on such behaviour has dramatically changed:

Ah, you beloved left wingers. Love trumps hate amiright? Unless you lose the election and then it's smashing windows, spray painting graffiti, profanity laced chants. I'm sure it won't be long before the fighting starts, maybe a few fires for good measure. Tolerance on display.
http://nypost.com/2016/11/09/protests-break-out-in-nyc-over-president-elect-trump/

Call me a crazy capitalist, but I think property is important, especially my own. My property represents hours worked, time invested, time I cannot get back, time that belongs to me and only me, future time lost if I have to use my future time to replace my damaged property. If someone was painting grafitti on my house or breaking my windows, I wouldn't be running outside with cookies and milk for them or sitting inside, looking out my window saying, "Oh the poor lefties, they lost the local election, they have to get their feelings out, it's only windows, I can work a few extra days next week and pay for it, oh wait, there's only 7 days, ok I'll just work weekends for the next two months so they can get their feelings out..."

No caveats, or "yes, but......"s there. Grafitti goes from clear property damage, to "getting some spray paint on a building". Funny that......

 

[Johnnypenso]

Sure - interesting though how the rhetoric on such behaviour has dramatically changed:

No caveats, or "yes, but......"s there. Grafitti goes from clear property damage, to "getting some spray paint on a building". Funny that......

Perhaps you missed this part:

Of course I have to add the caveat that it's not acceptable so no one assumes I condone this type of behaviour

Sorry, no change in rhetoric at all. The behaviour is unacceptable and the point remains. So far all we have to worry about is a few people being called some names and some spray paint. It's bad, but on the 1-100 scale of bad it's a 1 at best. Perspective I believe it's called. And quite a bit different than people rioting, attacking other people with sticks and bike chains in large mobs while covering their faces, hundreds of thousands or millions of dollars of damage to property, people in the hospital etc. That I might put at 50/100. Take your blinders off and you'll be able to see the difference.

 

[Famine]

That is exactly what they wanted.

Yes, I know. Hence the image...

And what does Da'esh want? Everyone in the world to hate Muslims so that their arseholish ideology and propaganda about everyone in the world hating Muslims comes true. It's literally their best recruitment tool.

 

[Northstar]

Sorry, no change in rhetoric at all. The behaviour is unacceptable and the point remains. So far all we have to worry about is a few people being called some names and some spray paint. It's bad, but on the 1-100 scale of bad it's a 1 at best. Perspective I believe it's called. And quite a bit different than people rioting, attacking other people with sticks and bike chains in large mobs while covering their faces, hundreds of thousands or millions of dollars of damage to property, people in the hospital etc. That I might put at 50/100. Take your blinders off and you'll be able to see the difference.

They may seem like inconsequential acts, but in the broader sense they could be just as damaging as an all-out riot. One person sees/hears what may be considered a stupid insult and brushes it off, while another could see/hear it and decide to be the next dick to blow themselves up.

 

[ryzno]

From my FB feed.

Breaking News: Hundreds of people evacuated from London's The Old Vic Theater; police cordoning off the area.

 

[TRGTspecialist]

Perspective I believe it's called. And quite a bit different than people rioting, attacking other people with sticks and bike chains in large mobs while covering their faces, hundreds of thousands or millions of dollars of damage to property, people in the hospital etc.

I agree the perspective is different. What I was getting at didn't cover perspective, or any of the above:

Call me a crazy capitalist, but I think property is important, especially my own. My property represents hours worked, time invested, time I cannot get back, time that belongs to me and only me, future time lost if I have to use my future time to replace my damaged property. If someone was painting grafitti on my house or breaking my windows, I wouldn't be running outside with cookies and milk for them or sitting inside, looking out my window saying, "Oh the poor lefties, they lost the local election, they have to get their feelings out, it's only windows, I can work a few extra days next week and pay for it, oh wait, there's only 7 days, ok I'll just work weekends for the next two months so they can get their feelings out..."

That solely refers to the seriousness of property damage on an individual level. Scale doesn't come into it. I stand by the observation that in this respect the tone notably changes with the politics.

 

[Dotini]

There only seems to be relatively manageable 23,000 potential terrorists in the UK. So, proportionately small risk, as the worst 3000 are under surveillance, The Times indicates.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/...evealed-uk-home-to-23-000-jihadists-3zvn58mhq
Huge scale of terror threat revealed: UK home to 23,000 jihadists
Sean O’Neill, Fiona Hamilton, Fariha Karim, Gabriella Swerling

May 27 2017, 12:00pm, The Times

Armed police patrol the track in the centre of Manchester, Britain, during the Great City GamesEP


Intelligence officers have identified 23,000 jihadist extremists living in Britain as potential terrorist attackers, it emerged yesterday.

The scale of the challenge facing the police and security services was disclosed by Whitehall sources after criticism that multiple opportunities to stop the Manchester bomber had been missed.

About 3,000 people from the total group are judged to pose a threat and are under investigation or active monitoring in 500 operations being run by police and intelligence services. The 20,000 others have featured in previous inquiries and are categorised as posing a “residual risk”.