Explosion in Manchester UK

[ryzno]

Some users remain sure that my post and others' answers are part of an anti-Trump agenda

HOW THE HECK DO Y'ALL GET THAT FROM MY ORIGINAL QUESTION?! It was a simple yes/no question! Did I accuse you of that? NO!

I didn't exactly approve of Trump releasing Israels info, without their permission and I don't approve of whoever leaked this! I do believe someone is purposely releasing info to tarnish Trumps and his administration, 🤬 me, I guess I'm paranoid.
I would have shamed him(Trump) for releasing it against the UKs permission, if he did it, but y'all want to take something and run with it and put a hell of a lot of words in my mouth. I'm sorry I don't spend 24/7 here to defend my posts. But as usual someone has to take one line I post and blow it out of proportion and in 10 different directions from my point!
Even though I like him and voted for him and STILL support him, I think he's an idiot just like everyone else in office!

I'm seriously about to quit this damn site! I've received nothing but flack from here just cause when I signed up I mainly stayed in the GT Drag Racing sections(which y'all think the entire section is a bunch of idiots like the Drifters...) And now cause I support Trump) After almost 5 years here I still get accused of crap and politely disrespected!!
I get it, y'all think I'm a 🤬 idiot! Then proceed to ask a thousand questions knowing I'm going to get confused, to make me look like more of an idiot!!

I'm sorry @TenEightyOne and everyone else for "derailing" the thread. I respect the fact you hid it due to images, I'm sorry. I'm a dumb arse and to lazy to click a spoiler.

R.I.P. to the people who have passed. My thoughts are with the families of the surviving victims. Stay strong UK.

If I get a temp ban or perma-banned it was kinda fun here and I'll miss the peeps I liked.

Now I'm going to try to give myself alcohol poisoning, I feel depressed.

 

[LeMansAid]

I've received nothing but flack from here just cause when I signed up I mainly stayed in the GT Drag Racing sections(which y'all think the entire section is a bunch of idiots like the Drifters.

Not once have thought of @Vagabond as an idiot.

You shouldn't get upset. I would not be able to post here if I wasn't confident that 99% of the time it is like a sport. Friends fight each other in MMA and boxing, and friends fight each other in here. The fight won't always have such a clear cut end, but there's generally the spirit of a post-fight handshake in play regardless. You're a good guy, and you really should only take this stuff serious enough to be able to learn, when learning is there to be embraced. I'm under no illusions about how much I've had to learn.

 

[MUSC4EVER]

Eight people still in police custody as they try to hunt down the bomb maker behind it, can see the threat level staying at 'critical' for at least a week, which is a good move as has been mentioned on this thread there are some big events taking place this bank holiday weekend and extra security is needed.

Armed police will be on trains nationwide for the first time ever in the UK, started happening this afternoon.

 

[DLR_Mysterion]

I don't. Do you? Does knowing this dick's name, parents, school and recent travel plans help you, personally, stop a religiously radicalised suicide bomber at a public event in future?

Nope.

I'm sure that this information is terribly useful to the security services, but I have no use for it.

The cult of villain worship - detailing their lives down to the last microsecond and plastering it all over every newspaper and news broadcast - gives the perpetrators of acts like this all the attention and immortality any of them could ever want. All the bollocks about their religion and where they've been recently just sows fear and distrust between them and us - in fact it creates them and us.

And what does Da'esh want? Everyone in the world to hate Muslims so that their arseholish ideology and propaganda about everyone in the world hating Muslims comes true. It's literally their best recruitment tool.


So I choose not to care who this dick was. I didn't care who the last one was either. I won't care who the next one is. They're just dicks.

I'm surprised this is liked so much. Then again, I see in the Britain thread Labour is leading in the poll (I chose to spoil the ballot). The same party that produced the Mayor of Manchester who said that an Islamic terrorist who recited prayers in the street and became "very religious" wasn't a Muslim....

http://www.lbc.co.uk/radio/presente...ster-mayor-bomber-was-a-terrorist-not-muslim/

But then again, he was the Health secretary when Mid-Staffs went down so....

-----

How can you create a level of discourse if you aren't aware of the facts? How can you vote without knowing who you're putting your trust in to keep you and your family safe? How can you comment on policies without knowing what it can lead to? When I talk of prevention this is what I speak of as well. The popular narrative, and the one that you are suggesting is that by carrying on as normal and ignoring who we are fighting we will somehow defeat them. That by creating a "them and us" we are doing the terrorists work. Instead this is just recognising facts. The bomber was an Islamic terrorist, much like the LRA were Christian terrorists. By looking at that article you would have also realised that one of the Imams was giving anti-ISIS speeches and that one of his relatives shopped him to the police. Now I don't know about you but I'd put those guys in the "us" camp.

I dunno, it just seems like by ignoring the perpetrators' history I'm reminded of

(Bit of context, this episode was quite a few years before the Hebdo attacks and was in response to the Danish cartoons of the Prophet Muhammad. Trey Parker and Matt Stone were trying to convince Comedy Central to let them show the "Prophet" but were rebuked in the name of safety so created a show on free speech. The episode aired without the image of the "Prophet", and ended with a monologue about how we had to stand up to terrorism.)

 

[Famine]

I'm surprised this is liked so much. Then again, I see in the Britain thread Labour is leading in the poll (I chose to spoil the ballot). The same party that produced the Mayor of Manchester who said that an Islamic terrorist who recited prayers in the street and became "very religious" wasn't a Muslim....

http://www.lbc.co.uk/radio/presente...ster-mayor-bomber-was-a-terrorist-not-muslim/

But then again, he was the Health secretary when Mid-Staffs went down so....

-----

How can you create a level of discourse if you aren't aware of the facts? How can you vote without knowing who you're putting your trust in to keep you and your family safe? How can you comment on policies without knowing what it can lead to? When I talk of prevention this is what I speak of as well. The popular narrative, and the one that you are suggesting is that by carrying on as normal and ignoring who we are fighting we will somehow defeat them. That by creating a "them and us" we are doing the terrorists work. Instead this is just recognising facts. The bomber was an Islamic terrorist, much like the LRA were Christian terrorists. By looking at that article you would have also realised that one of the Imams was giving anti-ISIS speeches and that one of his relatives shopped him to the police. Now I don't know about you but I'd put those guys in the "us" camp.

I dunno, it just seems like by ignoring the perpetrators' history I'm reminded of

View attachment 649192

(Bit of context, this episode was quite a few years before the Hebdo attacks and was in response to the Danish cartoons of the Prophet Muhammad. Trey Parker and Matt Stone were trying to convince Comedy Central to let them show the "Prophet" but were rebuked in the name of safety so created a show on free speech. The episode aired without the image of the "Prophet", and ended with a monologue about how we had to stand up to terrorism.)

You'd have saved yourself a lot of typing if you'd answered the first (or second) question in the post you quoted.

 

[DLR_Mysterion]

You'd have saved yourself a lot of typing if you'd answered the first (or second) question in the post you quoted.

I come from a place where I can report things, yes. I leave it then to the Police or security services. But I think even people "in the shires" can do their bit by educating themselves, be it by forming rallies, political protests, or voting etc.

 

[Famine]

I come from a place where I can report things, yes. I leave it then to the Police or security services. But I think even people "in the shires" can do their bit by educating themselves, be it by forming rallies, political protests, or voting etc.

That still doesn't answer the question...

Amusingly your entire previous post hinges on the notion that the general public can fight terrorism, making us soldiers in the war. Guess what terrorist organisations tell their soldiers to justify our murders? Yep, it's that we're all their enemy and no-one is innocent. Congratulations, you just played into their narrative too.

 

[DLR_Mysterion]

That still doesn't answer the question...

Amusingly your entire previous post hinges on the notion that the general public can fight terrorism, making us soldiers in the war. Guess what terrorist organisations tell their soldiers to justify our murders? Yep, it's that we're all their enemy and no-one is innocent. Congratulations, you just played into their narrative too.

Huh? I thought I answered your question?

And I posted what I think about the narrative, and how we are conditioned not to fight back. After all, all religious stuff aside, fact is people who can kill will always be subject to those who can

 

[Famine]

If you don't learn about your enemy, how do you intend to prevent things like this in the future?

I don't. Do you? Does knowing this dick's name, parents, school and recent travel plans help you, personally, stop a religiously radicalised suicide bomber at a public event in future?

Nope.

You're not going to prevent anything. Neither am I. Knowing what dick blew people up and why is useless to the general public.

All the papers should say about it is "Some dick blew himself up and took kids with him because he's an absolute ringpiece.", rather than granting him fame and martyrdom.

 

[DLR_Mysterion]

You're not going to prevent anything. Neither am I. Knowing what dick blew people up and why is useless to the general public.

All the papers should say about it is "Some dick blew himself up and took kids with him because he's an absolute ringpiece.", rather than granting him fame and martyrdom.

I disagree.

We know that....

- He became more religious in the months leading up to his attack
- He visited ME warzones before the attack
- His family were involved in terrorist activities
- His Imam had concerns about him
- His family had concerns about him

 

[TenEightyOne]

I disagree.

We know that....

- He became more religious in the months leading up to his attack
- He visited ME warzones before the attack
- His family were involved in terrorist activities
- His Imam had concerns about him
- His family had concerns about him

And that's thanks to the very newspaper (and other media) reports that @Famine mentioned. In summarising them you don't explain what that's useful to the general public?

 

[DLR_Mysterion]

And that's thanks to the very newspaper (and other media) reports that @Famine mentioned. In summarising them you don't explain what that's useful to the general public?

I think I did. In my original reply

 

[Famine]

I disagree.

We know that....

- He became more religious in the months leading up to his attack
- He visited ME warzones before the attack
- His family were involved in terrorist activities
- His Imam had concerns about him
- His family had concerns about him

And no part of that helps you or any other member of the public prevent the next one. Just as I said.

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

I am so sick of hearing about him. Everything is always racist this, sexist that, look now stupid Americans are for voting in a guy with bad hair. He's president, deal with it, and unless some idiot decides to pop his head off because they think that will miraculously give the keys to the White House to Hillary Clinton and not Mike Pence, he's going to be that way for at least the next 3 years and 9 months.

But I digress...

What the heck do you think you're doing spouting off reality in the face of grandiose dreams?

 

[TenEightyOne]

I think I did. In my original reply

No, your answer seemed to not refer to how the public might prevent the next one, only security agencies. If indeed you did mean that answer to apply to the general public then perhaps you could expand?

 

[Brend]

I disagree.

We know that....

- He became more religious in the months leading up to his attack
- He visited ME warzones before the attack
- His family were involved in terrorist activities
- His Imam had concerns about him
- His family had concerns about him

Unless the evil bastard rises from the dead, none of this helps us stop further attacks.

 

[Animera]

Seriously people, you're arguing for the sake of arguing.
Learning how to identify suspicious behaviour could help stop another attack.

Too many atrocities happen because people choose to ignore telltale signs that something is amiss.

 

[x3ra]

Time to drop a moab on ISIS. Time to terrorise the terrorists. Don't tell them you're coming this time. Allied Axis of Knobheads aren't doing enough. Stop going after Assad. Decimate Isis, then negotiate with Assad.

Turning the other cheek to a tiger will get you eaten.

Immigration where the immigrants don't conform to social norms is an invasion.

 

[PeterJB]

Unless the evil bastard rises from the dead, none of this helps us stop further attacks.

Not in this case specifically. But it helps if ordinary citizens know the signs to look out for.

 

[Famine]

Time to drop a moab on ISIS.

Sure thing. Where is ISIS again?

Not in this case specifically. But it helps if ordinary citizens know the signs to look out for.

Learning how to identify suspicious behaviour could help stop another attack.

Too many atrocities happen because people choose to ignore telltale signs that something is amiss.

I concur.

How do I identify someone who has recently been to Libya? How do I identify someone whose family and priest are worried about?

The after-the-fact information about where this dick has been and who he is has no relevance to stopping him or the next one.

His behaviour is what might have helped, but, frankly, I wouldn't even think twice about any guy hanging around outside a girly concert in Manchester at 10.30pm wearing a bulky coat. I might even exchange the mutual 'Your kids wanted to go and you let them get on with it while you went for a burger until collection time' glance and nod with them.

And that's the society I live in, not the fear-all-Muslims one.

 

[Brend]

Not in this case specifically. But it helps if ordinary citizens know the signs to look out for.

I agree but surely these warning signs would be so apparent that most would report the behavior? If I knew someone was starting to show extremist tendencies, I'd definitely report it to the authorities.

Truth be told, in the wake of events like this the media can almost be glorifying the event in their coverage. Constantly giving him and others 'inspired' the attention they crave and want to use as fuel to keep their 'fight' alive.

The sharing of useful knowledge? Sure.

Highlighting that he disrespected the local Imam at the mosque? Not so much.

 

[Scaff]

Time to drop a moab on ISIS. Time to terrorise the terrorists. Don't tell them you're coming this time. Allied Axis of Knobheads aren't doing enough. Stop going after Assad. Decimate Isis, then negotiate with Assad.

Turning the other cheek to a tiger will get you eaten.

How did you manage to miss the entire invasion of much of the middle east and Afghanistan?

Immigration where the immigrants don't conform to social norms is an invasion.

Given that logic Britain has invaded Spain.

 

[polysmut]

Immigration where the immigrants don't conform to social norms is an invasion.

A comically weak attempt at an invasion maybe.
What's the relevance of it here?

 

[DLR_Mysterion]

Hmm it seems I will never be able to understand the logic of letting our country be at the mercy of boogeymen because we are too scared to investigate what drives individuals to attack us so flagrantly.

Puzzling indeed

 

[x3ra]

How did you manage to miss the entire invasion of much of the middle east and Afghanistan?

Errrr. Really. I thought they were trying to get rid of Assad.

Given that logic Britain has invaded Spain.

Possibly, but I'm not sure that were are that different to the Spanish.

 

[Famine]

Hmm it seems I will never be able to understand the logic of letting our country be at the mercy of boogeymen because we are too scared to investigate what drives individuals to attack us so flagrantly.

Puzzling indeed

If you stopped confusing the general public with investigatory bodies (which was the root of my still unanswered question about how you, personally, intend to stop future attacks with this information), your puzzlement would end.

The police, and other bodies, would find the information that a young second generation immigrant had recently been to a country on the terror watch list and his family and pastor had expressed concerns about his views on several occasions. They might even put him under surveillance under reasonable suspicion and it may help them determine if he has any cause to be outside a concert with a suspiciously bulky jacket.

For the general public it's useless information when it comes to preventing an attack. None of it would have helped any of us to stop him from blowing himself up. It won't help with the next one either - unless you think these people walk around with a big sign above their head that says "This man is a young second generation immigrant has recently been to a country on the terror watch list and his family and pastor have expressed concerns about his views on several occasions", how would you even hope to identify them?


Knowing who the dick is, where he's been and what his friends said after he has blown himself up is useless. And you have no way of knowing who the next dick is, where he's been and what his friends said until he's blown himself up (or been stopped by security services).

 

[Scaff]

Errrr. Really. I thought they were trying to get rid of Assad.

So that's the only thing that's gone on in the region in the last couple of decades is it?

You're being more than a little selective to say the least.

Possibly, but I'm not sure that were are that different to the Spanish.

The Spanish may well disagree with that.

Entire communities that refuse to use the local language, have their own customs, restaurants and shops. Almost cut off from the native population. All the while sponging off the Spanish state, sending kids to English only schools and the while tying up and inflating the value of property making it affordable to young Spanish families.

 

[Touring Mars]

Knowing who the dick is, where he's been and what his friends said after he has blown himself up is useless. And you have no way of knowing who the next dick is, where he's been and what his friends said until he's blown himself up (or been stopped by security services).

Therein lies the rub - the security services do stop more attacks than are actually successful, but they are struggling to keep up... they can't stop every attack, but information regarding suspicious behaviour or behaviour that is consistent with radicalisation could well be helpful, and that is where information from the public could be useful. I get the impression that you guys are almost talking at cross purposes here - evidently it is not much use to write a detailed obituary about a suicide bomber in the hope that 'he won't do it again!'... but there are aspects of this guy's activities that should have (and for some people did) raise alarm bells. It is clearly a balancing act though - by treating innocent people like terror suspects, you are only likely to increase resentment and play more into the hands of extremists who push the 'we are being oppressed!' narrative; but I would argue that it goes well beyond that in order to convince someone to commit an atrocity such as a suicide bombing - this requires a process of radicalisation, funding, a network of people etc., all things that could be detected before it gets to the stage where someone is armed with a suicide bomb belt (by which point it is too late already). It is this fact - that pre-emptive action is required to stop a would-be suicide attacker - that makes it particularly difficult to deal with without infringing on civil liberties - but terrorists and extremists know this perfectly well and will exploit the situation regardless.

 

[x3ra]

Entire communities that refuse to use the local language, have their own customs, restaurants and shops. Almost cut off from the native population. All the while sponging off the Spanish state, sending kids to English only schools and the while tying up and inflating the value of property making it affordable to young Spanish families.

Big fan of immigrants?

 

[prisonermonkeys]

Turning the other cheek to a tiger will get you eaten.

That's a fantastic piece of advice.

Or it would be if you hadn't just advocated turning the other cheek to a tiger:

Decimate Isis, then negotiate with Assad.