Explosion in Manchester UK

[DLR_Mysterion]

More on what is known about the POS:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...salman-abedi-named-manchester-suicide-bomber/

 

[Famine]

More on what is known about the POS

I don't want to know more. I don't care about the perpetrator in any way and don't think they merit any particular attention beyond a footnote in history that says 'Some 🤬'.

 

[DLR_Mysterion]

I don't want to know more. I don't care about the perpetrator in any way and don't think they merit any particular attention beyond a footnote in history that says 'Some 🤬'.

If you don't learn about your enemy, how do you intend to prevent things like this in the future? It seems a bit head-in-the-sandy

While I agree about the carry-on-as-normal mantra that's always trotted out to an extent we also showed something else in our resilience when we show Blitz spirit and that's the knowledge that we are better in our hearts and that we are fighting back against whatever threat it happens to be, be it the Nazis or the IRA. Knowledge is key.

 

[Famine]

If you don't learn about your enemy, how do you intend to prevent things like this in the future?

I don't. Do you? Does knowing this dick's name, parents, school and recent travel plans help you, personally, stop a religiously radicalised suicide bomber at a public event in future?

Nope.

I'm sure that this information is terribly useful to the security services, but I have no use for it.

The cult of villain worship - detailing their lives down to the last microsecond and plastering it all over every newspaper and news broadcast - gives the perpetrators of acts like this all the attention and immortality any of them could ever want. All the bollocks about their religion and where they've been recently just sows fear and distrust between them and us - in fact it creates them and us.

And what does Da'esh want? Everyone in the world to hate Muslims so that their arseholish ideology and propaganda about everyone in the world hating Muslims comes true. It's literally their best recruitment tool.


So I choose not to care who this dick was. I didn't care who the last one was either. I won't care who the next one is. They're just dicks.

 

[PzR Slim]

If you don't learn about your enemy, how do you intend to prevent things like this in the future? It seems a bit head-in-the-sandy

While I agree about the carry-on-as-normal mantra that's always trotted out to an extent we also showed something else in our resilience when we show Blitz spirit and that's the knowledge that we are better in our hearts and that we are fighting back against whatever threat it happens to be, be it the Nazis or the IRA. Knowledge is key.

We don't need to know any more. The security services do. The less airtime this guy gets the less propaganda there is for the cause he believed in.

Edit: What Famine said, much more eloquently than me!

 

[doblocruiser]

in fact it creates them and us.

"Them and Us" is created by those who are unwilling to adapt in the society they live in because of their cultural and religional background. It seems that many forget how generous and open western society is to those with other "beliefs" in the first place. Probably too generous in combination with laxism and the unwill to handle accordingly, which causes those excesses to exist and develop itself.

 

[Moglet]

"Them and Us" is created by those who are unwilling to adapt in the society they live in because of their cultural and religional background. It seems that many forget how generous and open western society is to those with other "beliefs".

If by "beliefs" you mean the tiny minority of extremists with the belief that they are doing good by blowing up a load of teenage girls, I'd say we're far from generous to them given that law enforcement frequently raid their houses and make arrests.

 

[Famine]

"Them and Us" is created by those who are unwilling to adapt in the society they live in because of their cultural and religional background.

A 'them and us' situation is created any time that any one group thinks that another group is against them because of any perceived difference, regardless of whether it's true or not.

In my post it's 'normal' Westerners as 'us' and 'Muslims who've recently been to Syria/Libya' as 'them'.

 

[doblocruiser]

If by "beliefs" you mean the tiny minority of extremists with the belief that they are doing good by blowing up a load of teenage girls, I'd say we're far from generous to them given that law enforcement frequently raid their houses and make arrests.

To generous yes because they have all the freedom to stay nomatter what they are preparing. Most have a double nationality. Problem could be fixed real quick if you simply deport thoses excesses from society. Why frequently raid? If the forces even think about raiding your house you probably have already enough up your sleeve.

• Suspect, double nationality?
• Suspect, criminal activities?
• Suspect, link with extremisn?

I simply ask, what the hell are they waiting for before they act? Yes we wait until someone blows himself up after a concert. It is sickening how far rights can go of those who can cause serious damage to society and add to creating even more diversity! It is everytime the same story over and over again and there is no rationalising for the way those behave.

A 'them and us' situation is created any time that any one group thinks that another group is against them because of any perceived difference, regardless of whether it's true or not.

In my post it's 'normal' Westerners as 'us' and 'Muslims who've recently been to Syria/Libya' as 'them'.

If you go to Syria or Libya and you fit a certain profile, have a double nationality, that person simply shouldn't be let back into the country because of the risk it brings for society. I think the freedom of western society and the well being of the people living here go beyond those individuals.

 

[Famine]

If you go to Syria or Libya and you fit a certain profile, have double nationality, that person simply shouldn't be let back into the country because of the risk it brings for society. I think the freedom of western society and the well being of the people living here go beyond those individuals.

If you say so.

I have no idea why any member of the public needs to know that any individual is 'a certain profile' (Muslim) and has recently been to Libya or Syria. I have no use for this information, and I certainly have no use for the information after they have killed themselves (with or without taking anyone else with them). It's meaningless to me.

But the news wants to constantly harp on about it, as if everyone who is a Muslim and has travel plans that have in any way involved going to see other Muslims in countries where lots of Muslims, including their relatives, live is just waiting to blow themselves up.

That creates suspicion among the general public (in countries where innocence is presumed and guilt has to be proved) about an entire group of people. And guess what Da'esh wants? It wants the general public to treat that group of people as if they are terrorists, because it creates an us vs. them atmosphere that they can then use as a recruitment tool for actual terrorists.


In essence, the fear that some guy going on holiday might become radicalised is a self-fulfilling prophecy.

 

[doblocruiser]

@Famine I can see your point but those 2 countries are a pretty high riskfactor for the westerns (including all). I agree with you that the media should back off and give room to the special forces to do their work efficiently. We don't need to know every single detail measured out by 25 "experts" in all forms.

 

[Moglet]

To generous yes because they have all the freedom to stay nomatter what they are preparing. Most have a double nationality. Problem could be fixed real quick if you simply deport thoses excesses from society.

That's a whole lot of innocent people you're suggesting deporting for no reason other than "they might be dangerous". Before you even get to the thought process behind it the logistics are mind boggling. Who's going to pay for it all? What counts as "links with extremism"? What do you determine as being "criminal activity"; should someone be deported because he researched Da'esh for a thesis and broke the speed limit once?

 

[doblocruiser]

That's a whole lot of innocent people you're suggesting deporting for no reason other than "they might be dangerous". Before you even get to the thought process behind it the logistics are mind boggling. Who's going to pay for it all? What counts as "links with extremism"? What do you determine as being "criminal activity"; should someone be deported because he researched Da'esh for a thesis and broke the speed limit once?

You know as well as me that those guys have more than a simple speeding ticket. If the profile of the spcial forces ticks all the right boxes I don't see why you would take the risk for the grand public.

I really don't see an issue if the suspect has a double nationality and has a criminal record or has a double nationality and is linked with extremism.

 

[Dotini]

Overnight on BBC radio I got the following messages:
1) The bomber lacked the skills to make the bomb
2) The critical security clampdown and troop deployment may be related to the urgency to track down and liquidate the bomb maker
3) UK persons may in fact be irked that US intel sources leaked the name of the bomber

More on what is known about the POS:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...salman-abedi-named-manchester-suicide-bomber/

Quite a bit of information is conveyed about the identity and potential location in Britain of the bomb maker in this article. In accordance with forum gurus, I urge this forum to avoid reading it.

 

[Dave A]

You know as well as me that those guys have more than a simple speeding ticket. If the profile of the spcial forces ticks all the right boxes I don't see why you would take the risk for the grand public.

I really don't see an issue if the suspect has a double nationality and has a criminal record or has a double nationality and is linked with extremisn.

If we treat people like that based on a profile rather than what they've done or are clearly involved in plotting to do, then we are no better than the extremists we as a society are so proud not to be.

 

[Dotini]

If we treat people like that based on a profile rather than what they've done or are clearly involved in plotting to do, then we are no better than the extremists we as a society are so proud not to be.

"I would remind you that extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice! And let me remind you also that moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue!"

-- Barry Goldwater, US Senator from Arizona, from his acceptance speech as the 1964 Republican Presidential candidate.

note: The above is not my idea, but I thought it might be pertinent to the discussion. I'm against extremism in all its forms.

 

[Dennisch]

If we treat people like that based on a profile rather than what they've done or are clearly involved in plotting to do, then we are no better than the extremists we as a society are so proud not to be.

People like this perp tick certain boxes that should warrant increased surveillance. Times have changed and it needs new tactics to fight it.

If you have people like the assholes who carried out the attacks throughout Europe under increased surveillance, you don't need extra security elsewhere, so that we, law abiding citizens, can live that life we're used to.

A lone wolf will always be a risk. There is no way of stopping that, but these assholes are almost always part of a network, and are usually already on the radar.

Edit.

Police have arrested 3 more people including the brother of blowuppie.

 

[doblocruiser]

If we treat people like that based on a profile rather than what they've done or are clearly involved in plotting to do, then we are no better than the extremists we as a society are so proud not to be.

Under normal circumstances I would agree but in the situation we are in I think society has the right to be protected the best way possible. Those profiles are very specific and it also effects a rather "small" group within the overal society.

 

[mustafur]

I wouldn't sacrifice my Liberty for something that is less likely to have me killed then going for a walk to the shops.

Perspective is needed.

The more you get scared the more they know what they are doing works.

 

[PzR Slim]

Quite a bit of information is conveyed about the identity and potential location in Britain of the bomb maker in this article. In accordance with forum gurus, I urge this forum to avoid reading it.

People are free to read it if they want. The point Famine and I were making is that it is not information that anybody but the security services 'need' to know. They may want to know it but certainly don't need to know it.

 

[Dotini]

Under normal circumstances I would agree but in the situation we are in I think society has the right to be protected the best way possible. Those profiles are very specific and it also effects a rather "small" group within the overal society.

I strongly disagree that "society has a right to be protected in the best possible way". The statement is too vague, and needs a lot of qualification. There must be a cost/benefit ratio involved.

@PzR Slim
Yes, society has no need for too much information related to its safety and security. That is the job of the authorities, not the citizens themselves. Our role is to work and spend money, and not rock the boat.

 

[doblocruiser]

I strongly disagree that "society has a right to be protected in the best possible way". The statement is too vague, and needs a lot of qualification.

What I meant to say is that special forces should be given more authority to profile and remove certain individuals from the street even if it costs some individual rights for a certain amount of time. I don't want mass surveillance because that really has no use.

 

[Famine]

What I meant to say is that taskforces should be given more authority to profile and remove certain individuals from the street even if it costs some individual rights for a certain amount of time.

Well there's no danger of that ever being abused.

 

[doblocruiser]

Well there's no danger of that ever being abused.

How much longer do you want those radicals abuse our society?

Yes of course there is but what alternatives do we have. Wait for the next one to blow himself up from which we knew he already had a criminal record, was know with authorities and had links with radicals?

I think some messures are needed that don't fix into a "politcal correct" box.

 

[Famine]

Yes of course there is but what alternatives do we have.

"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."

People who hate our freedoms and think we hate them blow themselves up to exploit our freedoms, and your solution is to feed the hate and limit our freedoms.

That'll show them.

 

[doblocruiser]

"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."

So meanwhile with all the information authorities have you will be happy that another one will blow himself up in the middle of a crowd from who we knew in advance had problems with the law and frequented a radical network?

I don't see where I give up liberty for society if the messure would only concern a specific profile? Maybe I see it wrong myself and there is more a sense a laxism under authorities? Are to afraid to handle because of consequences?

 

[UKMikey]

So meanwhile with all the information authorities have you will be happy that another one will blow himself up in the middle of a crowd from who we knew in advance had problems with the law and frequented a radical network?

I don't see where I give up liberty for society if the messure would only concern a specific profile?

It may not be your liberty we're talking about giving up if the authorities throw out habeus corpus and start scooping up Muslims solely on a profile basis. But it's the thin end of the wedge.

 

[doblocruiser]

It is not what I am saying. You think that the British Muslim with wife and children that go to school in Britain form a risk? There is simply a certain group within Muslim society that forms a high risk for all people that live in society.

 

[Dotini]

So meanwhile with all the information authorities have you will be happy that another one will blow himself up in the middle of a crowd from who we knew in advance had problems with the law and frequented a radical network?

That is the new normal. We must get used to it. France and England have a long history with the Middle East, and there's no going back and no fixing it. Gardening may take your mind off it. Also drink lots of wine and watch racing on TV, not the news.

 

[TheCracker]

So meanwhile with all the information authorities have you will be happy that another one will blow himself up in the middle of a crowd from who we knew in advance had problems with the law and frequented a radical network?

I don't see where I give up liberty for society if the messure would only concern a specific profile? Maybe I see it wrong myself and there is more a sense a laxism under authorities? Are to afraid to handle because of consequences?

Once you grant governments authority to limit peoples liberty, even if its under the guise of stopping radical muslims, that authority then exists to limit everyone's liberty. Do we really want our western governments to be any more authoritarian?