Extra Books = paid loot boxes (by proxy)?

[tankuroded]

This is something that I already said here and re-addressed here, but I've noticing that Extra Books are getting dangerously close to paid loot box territory. You are required to buy them on your own money (although some extra books include cars that were part of previous main books), and with exception of the Fairlady Z and Type R books, they award Roulette Tickets, otherwise not purchasable by any currency (only Daily Workout), which still has comparisons to loot boxes despite that (not to mention the lack of odds disclosure, although free-only loot boxes seem to be exempt from the mandate) and, unless you exploited a certain bug, can only be claimed once per book. However, by buying the missing cars in each extra book for the purpose of obtaining the tickets, you might be effectively paying for the tickets, which is in paid loot box/gambling territory in an indirect/"by proxy" way.

For reference, here's the amount you will be paying for each Extra Book as of writing:

86: Cr. 62,552 (Levin given in Menu Book 10)
Type R: Cr. ~450,000 (EK9 '98 and DC2 '98 given in Menu Book 5) - awards NSX Gr.B (valued at Cr. 450,000) instead of a ticket
Rotary: Cr. ~352,500 (Cr. 282,500 if you get the FC RX-7 from golding Beyond the Horizon)
Fairlady Z: Cr. 139,660 (370Z given in Menu Book 18) - awards FuguZ (valued at Cr. 300,000) instead of a ticket
Viper: Cr. 390,000
Abarth: ~Cr. 104,000 (Abarth 500 given in Menu Book 7)
Gr.2: Cr. 3,000,000
Corvette: Cr. 395,000 (C7 given in Menu Book 27)
Midship Porsche: Cr. 6,230,000 (most expensive so far)

(Value for used cars in the calculation above based on the same method for calculating changed LCD prices. They tend to be lower than the value based on that method in practice it seems.)

 

[NJ72]

This is something I've thought from the beginning too. Loot boxes/ roulette tickets/ card packs etc. are a plague in gaming. Utterly hideous tactics to inflate gameplay hours and increase time to completion; not to mention the money-grabbing nature of them.

The only time I kinda accept it is in an F2P game, but putting it in a first party title - and locking specific features (engine swaps and specific special tuning parts) is just abhorrent.

I spammed the engine bonanza tickets a while back, but outside of that I haven't won a single engine that wasn't in a specific engine ticket - and I bet those only came to be because people were angry about the ridiculous odds of obtaining an engine.

And as a final edited point - they are 100% gambling, despite what developers may suggest.

 

[tankuroded]

And as a final edited point - they are 100% gambling, despite what developers may suggest.

Even if you can't pay (directly) for it? (If you have no extra books to do, the only way is daily workout.)

 

[Fezzik]

This is something that I already said here and re-addressed here, but I've noticing that Extra Books are getting dangerously close to paid loot box territory. You are required to buy them on your own money (although some extra books include cars that were part of previous main books), and with exception of the Fairlady Z and Type R books, they award Roulette Tickets, otherwise not purchasable by any currency (only Daily Workout), which still has comparisons to loot boxes despite that (not to mention the lack of odds disclosure, although free-only loot boxes seem to be exempt from the mandate) and, unless you exploited a certain bug, can only be claimed once per book. However, by buying the missing cars in each extra book for the purpose of obtaining the tickets, you might be effectively paying for the tickets, which is in paid loot box/gambling territory in an indirect/"by proxy" way.

For reference, here's the amount you will be paying for each Extra Book as of writing:

86: Cr. 62,552 (Levin given in Menu Book 10)
Type R: Cr. ~450,000 (EK9 '98 and DC2 '98 given in Menu Book 5) - awards NSX Gr.B (valued at Cr. 450,000) instead of a ticket
Rotary: Cr. ~352,500 (Cr. 282,500 if you get the FC RX-7 from golding Beyond the Horizon)
Fairlady Z: Cr. 139,660 (370Z given in Menu Book 18) - awards FuguZ (valued at Cr. 300,000) instead of a ticket
Viper: Cr. 390,000
Abarth: ~Cr.104,000 (Abarth 500 given in Menu Book 7)
Gr.2: Cr. 3,000,000
Corvette: Cr. 395,000 (C7 given in Menu Book 27)
Midship Porsche: Cr. 6,230,000 (most expensive so far)

(Value for used cars in the calculation above based on the same method for calculating changed LCD prices. They tend to be lower than the value based on that method in practice it seems.)

You aren't required to buy them and you're not using your own money, in-game credits are not the same thing (unless you bought them through MTX, which is incredibly foolish and not needed). As you state, there are other ways to receive tickets, even if the odds are incredibly heavily favoured against the player receiving something substantial

If they were locking cars/parts/engines behind tickets that could only be bought with real currency, then it would be a major issue. As it is it's just a crappy design choice - that they would defend by saying the point of the menus is to encourage collection of the cars themselves with the reward being a bonus, not the other way around.

 

[tankuroded]

You aren't required to buy them and you're not using your own money, in-game credits are not the same thing (unless you bought them through MTX, which is incredibly foolish and not needed).

But it's still currency being spent, even if you don't pay real money to help purchase the required cars.

 

[eran0004]

If you could buy roulette tickets repeatedly it would be a problem, because it would encourage you to spend more and more money until you get the prize you want. But since they are one-time purchases only and released a month apart I don’t see much incentive to buy MTX to complete these.

 

[Nuschel01]

Enough internet for today, this is ridiculous.

 

[MagpieRacer]

I'll be honest, I can't see the correlation between the extra menus and loot boxes at all. Everything can be earned in game, you don't have to buy the extra menus, roulette tickets can only be won and can't be bought in any way, shape or form. If you buy credits with real money and use that to buy a car in game, the impact that has on the roulette ticket is zero.

There is no requirement for them to disclose the odds of winning certain things because you aren't gambling your money, even if you decide to buy credits with real money, you still can't buy roulette tickets, ergo no need to disclose anything. It's merely an in game prize function with a predetermined result.

 

[Canucks_9419]

What even is this thread? 😂

 

[stpatty]

I mean.... no. By literally every possible definition, no.

 

[Razgriz2118]

But it's still currency being spent, even if you don't pay real money to help purchase the required cars.

But, that's just.... normal game progression....? Like in any other game where you need to buy things to progress which also gives you rewards....???

Look, I'm someone who hates microtransactions, pay-to-win, and loot boxes, but this is simply not one of those scanarios.Like, you can't buy a roulette ticket or menu book outright, either with real money or in-game currency, and if you're going to comment that you can buy in-game currency with real money, then literally the entire game is a paid loot box because you can buy all of the menu book cars if you want to.

 

[RACECAR]

But it's still currency being spent, even if you don't pay real money to help purchase the required cars.

Definition of a Loot Box:

Loot boxes are mystery bundles of virtual items related to a video game. They can be won by a gamer as a reward or can be purchased with real money. If your child likes to play video games, then chances are they have encountered a feature called “Loot Boxes”. The contents may allow you to unlock special characters, equipment, or “skins” which can change the appearance of something in the game or allow access to new levels.

This is right up there with people declaring the Roulette wheel is a Gacha Mechanic (Which falls apart completely because you don't spend ANY currency to make that wheel spin and you never have in ANY GT game). Would really be nice if people stopped using terms that aren't even accurate to describe something they don't like.

 

[Samus]

Definition of a Loot Box:



This is right up there with people declaring the Roulette wheel is a Gacha Mechanic (Which falls apart completely because you don't spend ANY currency to make that wheel spin and you never have in ANY GT game). Would really be nice if people stopped using terms that aren't even accurate to describe something they don't like.

The bit before you bolded seems to fit though...

I agree they're on the verge simply because there is no other gameplay involved. You buy the three cars, and you get a ticket. There is no other gameplay involved, no races. Just a simple buy cars to get a ticket.

 

[RACECAR]

The bit before you bolded seems to fit though...

I agree they're on the verge simply because there is no other gameplay involved. You buy the three cars, and you get a ticket. There is no other gameplay involved, no races. Just a simple buy cars to get a ticket.

That same bit however is highlighted to show that this doesn't involve real money (which is the key part of Loot Boxes and similar predatory tactics). While I can see how this is poor game design, I also can't help but see this thread as another growing example of complaints that misuse terms specifically to complain about again terrible game design (Something we seem to keep ending up finding in GT as of late, seemingly cementing that maybe they in fact don't pay attention to other games). I get we're tired of these mechanics in games and the numerous sleezy ways they are implemented, but it feels more and more legitimate complaints are becoming less frequent and drowned by the outrage crowd who care little about actual facts.

 

[Samus]

That same bit however is highlighted to show that this doesn't involve real money (which is the key part of Loot Boxes and similar predatory tactics).

What you quoted literally says loot boxes can be rewards OR purchased though. So it fits the definition for me, even if it's not the worst kind.

Personally I don't really care, it's just terrible game design primarily but I understand why people don't like loot boxes even if they are only given after spending fictional money.

 

[RACECAR]

What you quoted literally says loot boxes can be rewards OR purchased though. So it fits the definition for me, even if it's not the worst kind.

Yes it does but its also that bolded portion, which mentions with real money, that separates the concreate definition (not personal definition) of Loot boxes specifically from a simply having something that can be won as a prize (which is what these menu books have however terribly implemented they are) and thus why I highlighted it.

But it's still currency being spent, even if you don't pay real money to help purchase the required cars.

This right here is specifically the problem I have with this thread: It simply says its headed towards Loot box territory purely due to spending ANY currency relative to the mechanic when how they actually work (as opposed to how someone THINKS they work) is making you spend real money. Those in-game credits aren't what profits a Company.

 

[breeminator]

The bit before you bolded seems to fit though...

The bit he bolded fits, you CAN (but don't have to) buy them with real money. You can use real money to buy the cars that unlock the roulette tickets. I don't know if there is any legislation that would see that as a problem.

 

[RACECAR]

The bit he bolded fits, you CAN (but don't have to) buy them with real money. You can use real money to buy the cars that unlock the roulette tickets.

No it does not. Another key point I forgot to mention (and this is a HUGE difference as well) is that Loot boxes are randomized. You buying the exact car you need with real money (Something you can already do in GT Sport) is not buying a loot box because you know what you are getting.

 

[doomtrain69]

Personally I think we should be complaining but not about this, I've never bought credits for a Menu Book. We should complain about the complete lack of content though this is getting ridiculous

Take Madden for example, the ONLY ways to complete the good sets is to either pay like $100+ on special bundles or sometimes playing an insane amount of H2H and dominating everyone will do it. Extra Menu Books don't lock anything you NEED to have and just playing singleplayer and buying the occasional used car with your earnings gets it done

 

[Talon16]

Or you just don't buy the cars and don't care if the ticket is not complete?

 

[Artremis]

Eh this is a massive stretch. It's just rewards for filling your collection.

 

[tankuroded]

No it does not. Another key point I forgot to mention (and this is a HUGE difference as well) is that Loot boxes are randomized. You buying the exact car you need with real money (Something you can already do in GT Sport) is not buying a loot box because you know what you are getting.

With exception of the Fairlady Z and Type R menu books (since these grant a fixed car), you are buying the car in question for purposes of completing something that grants you a random item. Keyword I said in the OP: by proxy.

 

[StealthVel]

Alright I'm starting to think the community is running out of things to complain about

 

[05XR8]

I think if it were like GT Sport, where one could spend real money on the cars, that’d definitely be what you’re suggesting.

 

[RACECAR]

With exception of the Fairlady Z and Type R menu books (since these grant a fixed car), you are buying the car in question for purposes of completing something that grants you a random item. Keyword I said in the OP: by proxy.

As opposed to spending money directly in the hopes for getting a certain item (Again using Real money), therefore its even more obvious that its not a Loot box. Even if you mean "by Proxy", its absolutely a desperate stretch to say it almost is.

 

[breeminator]

No it does not. Another key point I forgot to mention (and this is a HUGE difference as well) is that Loot boxes are randomized. You buying the exact car you need with real money (Something you can already do in GT Sport) is not buying a loot box because you know what you are getting.

But the OP's point is you're buying roulette tickets. They are randomized. You can buy these tickets by buying the cars that unlock them with real money. It's a mechanism that the game has whereby you CAN exchange real money for randomized items (albeit slightly indirectly), if you choose to do so.

 

[Dave A]

Yes it does but its also that bolded portion, which mentions with real money, that separates the concreate definition (not personal definition) of Loot boxes specifically from a simply having something that can be won as a prize (which is what these menu books have however terribly implemented they are) and thus why I highlighted it.

This right here is specifically the problem I have with this thread: It simply says its headed towards Loot box territory purely due to spending ANY currency relative to the mechanic when how they actually work (as opposed to how someone THINKS they work) is making you spend real money. Those in-game credits aren't what profits a Company.

If what you posted is what you are referring to as the concrete defintion then it literally says it can be won in game or bought with money, so the tickets fit that defintion entirely.

Let's be honest, they are a loot box mechanic, but they aren't predatory in the sense of encouraging players to buy one more to get the prize they want since the only way to spend real money towards one is to spend real money to buy credits to buy the cars to complete the menu book which is a stretch.

They aren't paid as far as spending real money on them as there's no option to buy them directly.

 

[Kean_1]

But the OP's point is you're buying roulette tickets. They are randomized. You can buy these tickets by buying the cars that unlock them with real money. It's a mechanism that the game has whereby you CAN exchange real money for randomized items (albeit slightly indirectly), if you choose to do so.

I think we all get the argument but the point is that it's a stretch to tie it to what many are familiar with as the "paid loot box" controversy where people are actually buying (with real money) loot boxes that have random prizes.

I agree with @RACECAR on this one and also believe some of these MTX mechanics get grouped together that really are not as similar as they are made out to be. Perhaps that's partly due to some of these adopted definitions (arguable in some cases) being so broad to encompass a variety of models including those that resemble little to ones that made them so infamous.

"Pay to win" is another good example of one of those that get used inappropriately IMO.

 

[Pizzicato1985]

But it's still currency being spent, even if you don't pay real money to help purchase the required cars.

Currency that requires a lot of time to acquire at that. Time is the most precious commodity to all mankind, more valuable than any currency, hard or fiat. In a way that's almost worse than real money gambling, but since one is playing by choice knowing full well what a slog it is it's hard to pin the blame on anyone other than oneself for foolishly squandering that time.

 

[RACECAR]

If what you posted is what you are referring to as the concrete defintion then it literally says it can be won in game or bought with money, so the tickets fit that defintion entirely.

Let's be honest, they are a loot box mechanic, but they aren't predatory in the sense of encouraging players to buy one more to get the prize they want since the only way to spend real money towards one is to spend real money to buy credits to buy the cars to complete the menu book which is a stretch.

They aren't paid as far as spending real money on them as there's no option to buy them directly.

I posted that (which appears to be universal everywhere I look) because it matches exactly what I saw in Star Wars battlefront II (A game I actually own) and what I saw in multiple games: Spending real money directly on a randomized box hoping it gives you the prize you want. So reading just what the OP said and further reiteration, it did not at all line up with what I had seen and it just seemed like a overly convoluted stretch (Especially when said tickets, which are the randomized item, cannot be directly purchased with real money). Having refamiliarized myself with the books since I haven't seen a video with them in a while and looking at it, I still feel like its abit out there to look at it as a Loot Box Mechanic. If it is, the only portion I see even relating to it is the spending part (which is also what you do for Optional DLC or Microtransactions or pay-to-win). This just feels like a very lackluster design that is argued could be sped up with buying a car for real money instead of using in-game currency to get said cars but even then when you really think about, its not really anymore convenient as you're still stuck having to do the races (and read the Oscar worthy dialogue) in order to complete the task instead of cutting out multiple very unsettling looking Middleman by just throwing money in to bypass all that work.

I think we all get the argument but the point is that it's a stretch to tie it to what many are familiar with as the "paid loot box" controversy where people are actually buying (with real money) loot boxes that have random prizes.

I agree with @RACECAR on this one and also believe some of these MTX mechanics get grouped together that really are not as similar as they are made out to be. Perhaps that's partly due to some of these adopted definitions (arguable in some cases) being so broad to encompass a variety of models including those that resemble little to ones that made them so infamous.

"Pay to win" is another good example of one of those that get used inappropriately IMO.

This is precisely why I take issue with this. At worst, this just seems like an ineffective game design that doesn't seem beneficial for literally anyone (Obviously, the people keep making it clear that they don't like it and I certainly couldn't see Activision or Rockstar finding this convenient when they are all about draining you dry in the fastest and efficient means possible at the moment) so its odd to even link this mechanic purely based on something as broad as spending (Real or in-game).