Fanatec ClubSport Pedal V2 - Tuning

[Lucas Moreira]

Hey Logi, I was actually thinking of doing something very similar with the original Shocks for the V2's. Never quite got around to it and once I got the Mugen's I didn't look back.

I like the progressive spring you have there, I used my old nixim one from my g27 and the feel is great!

Now I am just waiting on a set of fast-track shoes so I can stop using socks and my plan is to crank up the brake by moving it up one peg.

 

[LogiForce]

Hey Logi, I was actually thinking of doing something very similar with the original Shocks for the V2's. Never quite got around to it and once I got the Mugen's I didn't look back.

I like the progressive spring you have there, I used my old nixim one from my g27 and the feel is great!

Now I am just waiting on a set of fast-track shoes so I can stop using socks and my plan is to crank up the brake by moving it up one peg.

Nice, never knew the Nixim works. Makes me wonder if I could fit a GTeye one as well. Hrm... might experiment at some point. Or better yet, if there is one with a GTeye and CSP v2 pedals... could you try please?

Also you can bump up the resistance with adding a thicker silicon oil to the damper.


Thanks for letting me know! And keep modding!

 

[Nick Moxley]

I would personally be weery of using Thicker oil, Especially with the stock piston combo. Granted Im on a completely different shock but im using Losi 35w with 5x1.2 piston and build "Dead"

FYI the Stock oil which i think is listed as 120 is NOT 120w Oil. Just so you know and IMO its Shi* oil. Go to your local hobby shop and pick up a bottle of Losi or AE oil. Even some of our Kits from the BIG brand RC companies come with this Crap oil and the True Racer's Bin it in favor of name brand stuff.

 

[posimosh]

Im confused Posimosh, what exactly did you break ?

Nothing (yet). I'm just wondering how much load the little thingiee that the oil shock connects to can bear. I ask because this looks to be where people are attaching various resistance increasing apparatus.
If the reason I mentioned oil getting everywhere is if you were to bend the stock oil shock or one of those rc racing shocks, failure would be quick and catastrophic. Anyway, I should have been more straightforward. Has anyone snapped the mounting protrusion that the end of the oil shock closest to the pedal affixes to?
Ps the frex oil that came with my hydrobrake works nice in the fanatec kit. However, the biggest problem with the fana-shock (see what I did there?) is the fact that air is present and the oil isn't pressurized (or at least on mine there is no efficient way to pressurize it). Not that I would necessarily think pressurizing that cylinder/piston setup would be that great an idea.

 

[novadave]

As long as the shock is not fully compressed to the point of hitting it`s mechanical end point or spring coil bind. There should not be a problem with breaking the mounting point.
These shocks actually do not really create any high pressures internally as all they are doing is displacing the disc valve from one end to the other. The size and number of the orifices on the valve are what control the resistance to it`s displacement in the cylinder. The oil viscosity is the easiest way to make fine adjustments to the displacement resistance.
Note - I often see these shocks mounted in the wrong way. the cylinder end should always be mounted higher than the piston rod end so that the disc valve is fully immersed in the oil at all times. ( at the bottom of the cylinder when the cylinder is mounted at the highest point ). this will eliminate any problems with aeration when and if the valve encounters any air.

 

[Nick Moxley]

Technically there shouldn't be a piggyback shock used in this application, that Adds immensely to the Air in the shock issue. IMO its just a Crappy shock that is easily replaced by a quality unit like the Mugen MBX7. and for 30-35$ can you really complain ? I think not.

 

[Lucas Moreira]

Yeah I find the stock unit to be extremely sub-par especially considering all the options that are out on the market that are basically plug and play.

 

[RacerXX]

Here is a nice concept that has worked well for me. Using 10x "thicker" fluid with better o-rings for more of a hydraulic feel. Gives high feel and a quick release action that aids modulation. Not to mention no leaking.

Look above the load cell - one way action. This tweak has the damper acting in bump/brake-apply only with no rebound / brake-release action.

 

[Lucas Moreira]

That's an interesting idea on setting up the brake, not something I would have thought of I Must admit.

 

[RacerXX]

That's an interesting idea on setting up the brake, not something I would have thought of I Must admit.

Thanks, it really helps when you trail brake into a turn and want to ride the edge of the friction circle. You can reduce braking quicker than stock due to the one-way damping and stronger spring I added separately. So it can help you find split seconds and course position at those times.

I've done the same thing with steering so that countersteer can be delivered in much less time than stock. And initiated right when it is needed, more often. See a recent thread I just started...it leads to better lap times 100% for sure.

 

[eKretz]

Yep, ^^^^^^^

That guy is the best thing to happen to the world since sliced bread. Hell, he will tell you all about it.

 

[Lucas Moreira]

Yeah I guess I wouldnt think of it because I can't see how thats helpful in the least.

 

[RacerXX]

My pedal mod is quite simple to DIY, just try it out if you are curious. Instead of using the stock 1200 centistoke visosity fluid, I'm using cheap, readily available 10,000 cSt fluid. IIRC there might have also been an 800 cSt fluid used early on.

So this is around 8 times more viscous than stock. This provides tons more hydraulic feel on brake application. No leaks in over a year by just using better o-rings. Can we agree that much thicker fluid provides more shock damping effect? It is quite noticeable if you work the pedal with your hand. If you like the change in feel from adding a damper, this just provides more of that type of feel.

When you release the brakes, there is no damping effect to slow this down as I have decoupled the shock from the pedal linkage. Stock or with better RC shocks added, you wind up slightly slowing down the release or pedal return part of the brake action. This is because the damping action happens when the brake is applied as well as when it is released. Agreed?

Thirdly, when the brake is released using my mod, there is no damping action at all. So the pedal can pop back up more rapidly. Just watch the viddie clip. So the pedal returns as fast as stock, or more rapidly if you have fast feet and use firmer springs.

If you use weak levels of shock damping there is less benefit from this one way mod. If you use strong levels of damping, this mod helps a ton. At first I tried internal valving changes and even some high tech knob adjustable approaches. But what I found out was that at high damping force levels, mostly what I needed was less rebound / brake release damping. As it turned out it was much simpler / cheaper / more effective to do things like I showed in my video.

 

[Lucas Moreira]

I hear you there but I just don't really see the gain in having zero damping on the return of the brakes.

I don't usually flat out release the brake into a turn, I try to do it gradually so that the weight transfers are smooth. I also tend to trail brake so having that mod really brings me no advantage.

What I am really curious tho is to see you go back to the iRacing forums and explain your zero-friction hoseclamp + 2 screws mod that apparently magically makes wheels perfect! I will offer up $10 of my own money for your explanation complete with pics. Ok I will make it $20 if it has pics.

 

[RacerXX]

I hear you there but I just don't really see the gain in having zero damping on the return of the brakes.

I don't usually flat out release the brake into a turn, I try to do it gradually so that the weight transfers are smooth. I also tend to trail brake so having that mod really brings me no advantage.

What I am really curious tho is to see you go back to the iRacing forums and explain your zero-friction hoseclamp + 2 screws mod that apparently magically makes wheels perfect! I will offer up $10 of my own money for your explanation complete with pics. Ok I will make it $20 if it has pics.

The hose clamp helps CSR-E wheel swaps stay rock solid, it has nothing at all to do with friction. This is a work-around for what I regard as a design flaw with the wheel attachment method. Those two stock bolts get threaded through the wheel adapter and then into the shaft adapter hence the two threads fight one another. So you wind up with some wheel wobble if you do nothing. If you just load on the Formula Rim from a never removed GT rim and never swap back you'll likely be okay without this tweak. In my case the wheel has been apart quite a few times lol.

Sometimes when you use the brakes, it is to help put the weight where you need it. The clip below is from a corner where I set a PB time split. I could not quite take it flat out, but I left foot braked with about 90% throttle and I used the brakes lightly as required to hold the line. So far this has proven fastest for me in that particular turn. It is faster than left foot trail braking into the turn and then maintenance throttling followed by progressive increase. Very, very busy feet AND hands at that split. I can't always pull it off properly but when I can it helps the time splits and my exit MPH.

As you can see, each time I released the brakes with my left foot, I was able to get the braking action to reduce as I intended, rather than being unnecessarily retarded by the damping action. Just look at the red o-ring. In the apply direction, the driver gets to enjoy more of the nice hydraulic feel we're all familiar with from real cars, and the muscle force is sufficient to overwhelm the damping force at those times.

 

[Lucas Moreira]

The hose clamp helps CSR-E wheel swaps stay rock solid, it has nothing at all to do with friction. This is a work-around for what I regard as a design flaw with the wheel attachment method. Those two stock bolts get threaded through the wheel adapter and then into the shaft adapter hence the two threads fight one another. So you wind up with some wheel wobble if you do nothing. If you just load on the Formula Rim from a never removed GT rim and never swap back you'll likely be okay without this tweak. In my case the wheel has been apart quite a few times lol.

Sometimes when you use the brakes, it is to help put the weight where you need it. The clip below is from a corner where I set a PB time split. I could not quite take it flat out, but I left foot braked with about 90% throttle and I used the brakes lightly as required to hold the line. So far this has proven fastest for me in that particular turn. It is faster than left foot trail braking into the turn and then maintenance throttling followed by progressive increase. Very, very busy feet AND hands at that split. I can't always pull it off properly but when I can it helps the time splits and my exit MPH.

As you can see, each time I released the brakes with my left foot, I was able to get the braking action to reduce as I intended, rather than being unnecessarily retarded by the damping action. Just look at the red o-ring. In the apply direction, the driver gets to enjoy more of the nice hydraulic feel we're all familiar with from real cars, and the muscle force is sufficient to overwhelm the damping force at those times.

Well, you basically entirelly negated the Hydraulic dampening on the pedal I again do not see the point in doing this! I picked these pedals because of the hydraulic "feel" and load cells (Pricepoint helps too) what you did there is make it so that all of the pressure is handled by the spring. Which is fine for you but its not what I am looking for and I don't see why you wouldnt just bother ditching the shock all together and just using a simpler spring + rod design without the need for a piston at all.

Sure the pedal might return faster but with the nixim spring I have mounted on Mugen Xb6's I have plenty of push back on my foot and the brake returns to zero on a blink.

 

[RacerXX]

Well, you basically entirelly negated the Hydraulic dampening on the pedal I again do not see the point in doing this! I picked these pedals because of the hydraulic "feel" and load cells (Pricepoint helps too) what you did there is make it so that all of the pressure is handled by the spring. Which is fine for you but its not what I am looking for and I don't see why you wouldnt just bother ditching the shock all together and just using a simpler spring + rod design without the need for a piston at all.

Sure the pedal might return faster but with the nixim spring I have mounted on Mugen Xb6's I have plenty of push back on my foot and the brake returns to zero on a blink.

Umm, that design seems to work quite well and it hasn't broken in about a year of use. It provides more of the feel of a hydraulic (stock is actually very weak there and many agree with me about that), And yet it clearly provides faster brake-off action than stock upon release. It's been datalogged too, works fine. Good enough for countless *very* fast laps. Remember that I'm using it with a modified wheel that has proven to be very fast on the track (more towards the direction of a servo wheel than most folks are using) and it can keep up. Heck you can see on that very fast lap in a tricky corner that release was quicker. Had release been slower more momentum would have been lost due to slightly more braking taking place.

If you'd like try out my suggestion about doing different things with your feet on tricky turns and comparing splits. I've datalogged many famous / fast racers in real racecars and found that the Aliens make a great deal of their speed with their feet compared to mere mortals. This comes from logging their steering / gas / brakes along with car behavior. You might like it. The faster ones have traces like I have shown elsewhere with lots of active and fast steering inputs and corner entry strategies that help cut understeer along with using low understeer car setups.

 

[Lucas Moreira]

Yes, the stock one sucks balls which is why I went with the beefier mugens. On the plus side they are the perfect diameter to fit a nixim mod spring and those are beautifully progressive and hard springs that give the brake some nice weight to it.

Not sure I agree with you about your mod giving you MORE hydraulic feel. Lets analize the situation here. For the Hydraulic dampening to work the piston has to move up and down with the spring so that the oil gets compressed and has to squeeze through the vents in the piston head. For this to work the mounting point HAS to be connected to the piston right? Well you have DISCONNECTED the piston from the mounting point. As per your image there it is going straight through it so the piston slides freely back and forth.

That will give you a faster return - YES! But it will give you no dampening... all the dampening is being handled by the spring now! Its obvious on your gif that there is zero dampening.

Anyway, I do not care.. keep doing what you are doing bro and chasing that magic dragon! As far as I am concerned I am happy where I am at. Also For christ sake stop making claims and backing them up with zero evidence.. seriously..

I don't believe you are fast on track.. I also don't believe you set track records.. I do not believe your wheel is all that quick.. I am not sure I even believe you are real!

 

[fatkrakr]

The first time I seen that image of his shock I thought he was going to be asking someone how to fix it. Read the post and he did it on purpose. LOL.

 

[mrbasher]

Using 10x "thicker" fluid with better o-rings for more of a hydraulic feel. Gives high feel and a quick release action that aids modulation.

There are couple things going on here that need addressing...
This gif he's attached shows what is really going on here best. Let's talk about it... He's using "10x 'thicker' fluid" So, we can assume it has more dampening than stock. This happens on compression, which is what it sounds like people want and obviously what he wants. Unfortunately, it also happens on extension, as evidenced by the gif he provided.

See how the end of the shock comes off away from the end stop? At this point there is no spring pressure pushing the pedal back up. Once this happens, the only thing pressing the pedal back up is the foam slug inside the brake body. Not the spring on the shock.

With that in mind, let's go back to something he just stated:

Had release been slower more momentum would have been lost due to slightly more braking taking place.

That's kind of true, compared to stock it might release quicker. (meaning, the signal will go back to zero quicker) Though it would be identical to a set of CSP V1. This is because what's now happening is the foam slug is pressing the pedal back up, the other end of which is still pressing on the load cell to make that happen. The shock/spring is doing absolutely nothing. Feel wise, there is a problem in my opinion...

This mod makes successive braking inputs, like he's shown, feel progressively weaker. If the shock isn't allowed the time necessary to return completely before the next press, it will not provide any "feel" or resistance until it's engaged again at some unknown point in travel. It would be akin to a car with the brakes that were not properly bled. That feels like crap.

In my opinion, if you want to do this at least "better" then a spring can be added between the black brake body (holding the load cell), around the rod that goes into it. Such that the spring is pressing on the pivot at the back of the brake pedal and on the black brake body. This will provide separate pressure, that is always there.

Either way however, the "hydraulic" nature is only active on compression and only if given sufficient time to return.

Lastly, this mod isn't complex and requires no machining. He simply screwed a piece of rod with the end threaded into the base of the shock, then mounted the pivot sideways in the hole it would normally be mounted in such that the rod could slide through it.

 

[fatkrakr]

I seen the problem, that's why I thought he was going to ask how to fix it. Hes basically added a variable dead zone he has no control over.

 

[mrbasher]

Implosion seems imminent so we probably won't have to worry about stuff like this much longer anyhow.

To be more... on topic... He does have a point, it's just executed quite poorly.

Adjustable rebound would be the way to go if you want to do what he suggests. I have no idea if these would fit, but they are apparently adjustable:

http://www.rcplanet.com/Integy_Rebound_Adjustable_Piggyback_Shock_Savage_X_p/intt6723red.htm

 

[novadave]

Jon - it is even less effective than you might think.
The PU foam insert does not have enough stored energy to actually return the pedal to rest once released therefor there will always be a small amount of pressure applied to the load cell if the pedal is not pulled back.
At least the V.1 pedal set had a coil spring at the pedal piston/block to return the brake pedal once released.
On the v.2 this is done by the shock mounted spring instead.
As far as I can tell by the various photos I have seen he does not have any return spring other than the stock coil spring and since he has stalled the rebound to a point that the shock spring retainer actually pulls away from the mount area upon release has virtually made this pedal non responsive when modulating the brake.
A TOTAL WASTE OF TIME.

 

[mrbasher]

Jon - it is even less effective than you might think.
The PU foam insert does not have enough stored energy to actually return the pedal to rest once released therefor there will always be a small amount of pressure applied to the load cell if the pedal is not pulled back.
At least the V.1 pedal set had a coil spring at the pedal piston/block to return the brake pedal once released.
On the v.2 this is done by the shock mounted spring instead.
As far as I can tell by the various photos I have seen he does not have any return spring other than the stock coil spring and since he has stalled the rebound to a point that the shock spring retainer actually pulls away from the mount area upon release has virtually made this pedal non responsive when modulating the brake.
A TOTAL WASTE OF TIME.

AH, yes! That's what I thought (the spring on the V1, I didn't remember if it had one) So then I was correct, before I editted... This actually makes the release slower than even a set of V1s.

 

[Lucas Moreira]

Agreed, Having adjustable rebound would be pretty awesome but as it is I am quite happy with what i've got now. To me it feels a lot better than stock and I know its not my equipment that is holding me back from being fast, I still have to learn and work on techniques and so on. Not something that a break mod is going to fix all of a sudden.

I think we have finally unmasked Mr. Racer as a fraud at this point a deluded fraud unfortunately. As I stated over on the other thread, I almost feel bad for the guy. He is either the biggest troll I have EVER seen or he seriously needs some help grasping the reality of the situation.

 

[Paul Hope]

Guys, my first post here so be gentle..

If the dampers you are using have a similar design in terms of having at least two holes in the piston and you would like a much faster return rate on your damper after you release brake pressure the best and simplest way would be to make your own return valve as per this guide below.. and experiment with different hole diameters on the piston.

http://www.instructables.com/id/valved-pistons-for-RC-car-shocks/

I think I'd try and find something a bit more substancial and better suited than thin polythene as the valve though.

 

[RacerXX]

Yes, the stock one sucks balls which is why I went with the beefier mugens. On the plus side they are the perfect diameter to fit a nixim mod spring and those are beautifully progressive and hard springs that give the brake some nice weight to it.

Not sure I agree with you about your mod giving you MORE hydraulic feel. Lets analize the situation here. For the Hydraulic dampening to work the piston has to move up and down with the spring so that the oil gets compressed and has to squeeze through the vents in the piston head. For this to work the mounting point HAS to be connected to the piston right? Well you have DISCONNECTED the piston from the mounting point. As per your image there it is going straight through it so the piston slides freely back and forth.

That will give you a faster return - YES! But it will give you no dampening... all the dampening is being handled by the spring now! Its obvious on your gif that there is zero dampening.

Anyway, I do not care.. keep doing what you are doing bro and chasing that magic dragon! As far as I am concerned I am happy where I am at. Also For christ sake stop making claims and backing them up with zero evidence.. seriously..

I don't believe you are fast on track.. I also don't believe you set track records.. I do not believe your wheel is all that quick.. I am not sure I even believe you are real!

Your post seems inappropriate to me as far as the personal comments go. The on topic points indicate that you may not understand what my design is doing.

Again, with all due respect, the damper I have shown works just like I have described above and just like I have shown via video. You can easily make an example yourself if you are handy and then you'd see what I mean. My sample took maybe an hour or so to build. I found this to be more effective than a few adjustable rebound designs I produced involving modified pistons and valving and extra parts. Those used conventional solid mounts on each end of the damper. In my testing I kept finding that less and less rebound seemed to be the way to go, so I went to zero (which you cannot hit with internal valving, and there is seal drag to consider too). I dispensed with the internal valving approach and accomplished the goal more effectively and in a simpler manner by zigging instead of zagging.

It truly does have *way* more dampening than stock on compression, which happens during brake application. Most of the extra dampening force comes from using way stiffer than stock shock fluid. 1,200 vs 10,000 vis. This lead to imo too slow brake return using the normal both ends solid mounted layout that comes stock on these pedals.

When you lift off of the brake pedal, there is no damping force retarding the return of the brake pedal coming from the damper anymore since the linkage provides zero rebound damping to the brake pedal. This is because there is a one way linkage. So your suggestion about the shock piston doing nothing is not correct. Since on apply the device presses against the tiny rod end I have used for this application and so the piston works normally as if the linkage was not present.

Once again this design does provide high damping force on brake application. And zero on brake off. A slight drawback (which may also be an advantage at times) is that on very quick reapplications of the brakes, the shock will not have had time to reextend fully via the spring force encouraging that extension. You can see this on the video too. But at those hairy times I don't notice any issues personally. On a simply apply and then slowly come off the brakes as you enter steering input this does not occur.

On wheels I posted some data on another forum showing a way to measure sim-wheel countersteer inputs which *anyone* can do if they have Wheelcheck. The design of my wheel modifications does seem to permit much faster than stock wheel speed during these critical times. It is from that improvement I have found lap time benefits and can push car setup towards looser at times to good effect. You can try out your own wheel if you give my Wheelcheck idea a shot, which (again lol) noone else has come up with. It works and can demonstrate countersteer performance. You might have faster hand speed than me, but for sure if you tried my wheel you'd go even faster. Or if you have slower hand speed, you'd also see benefit.

If you want to modify the Fanatec wheels, you can use different motors as a number have done. But if you want some of the low drag benefits you'd not replicate all of the stock design limitations as that paints you in a corner quite a bit. I tried and found better ways to get the FFB stronger and more reliable but at the same time cut the drag so that things like feel and countersteer improved further than I could accomplish using the stock constraints. There are a few ways to do this sort of thing, not just how I got it done. I'm just sharing that I was delighted to find solid car control benefits coming from keeping the wheel from holding back the driver quite as much. Try out the wheelcheck test I detailed elsewhere, and I think you may also find what I have found.

 

[LeMansAid]

If we're talking about the level (of ability) where reduced, minimal, or no damping on return is of use, I would think that the gap with no damping on re-application would feel significant. ie. The relatively unregulated jump from no damping to 10,000 viscosity damping.

Just seems like a person would need to be good enough that the former matters, but not good enough for the latter to matter. If they are indeed on different levels at all.

 

[RacerXX]

If we're talking about the level (of ability) where reduced, minimal, or no damping on return is of use, I would think that the gap with no damping on re-application would feel significant. ie. The relatively unregulated jump from no damping to 10,000 viscosity damping.

Just seems like a person would need to be good enough that the former matters, but not good enough for the latter to matter. If they are indeed on different levels at all.

Seems logical to me. In my own case when I left foot brake and have that foot moving, right foot throttle and have that foot moving all while the wheel rim is moving with some countersteers sprinkled in trying not to lose the car I am so overwhelmed that brake pedal feel has not come to my attention. Trying to do a record lap leaves me sweaty and with a rapid pulse indeed (and a smile).

Note that the stock damper is pretty darn weak. Even ~8x stronger is not exactly that strong compared to leg force potential. I'll have to increase shock action and look into it further.

But note my comment about it could be a good or a bad thing then (at the times when reapplies occur rapidly). Since the brake pedal input could be slightly quicker due to less apply damping at those instants. Yet at slower or more conventional braking moments the pedal would have only higher force going on and less than stock coming off.

Some of this stuff also start to get into morality. Since the wheel behavior I've embraced helps a driver during very trying periods on track. It shows up in lap times, on video, in my data logs, in wheelcheck using driver inputs (see my graphs elsewhere). See...the wheel can be physically moved more quickly than you can do in a real car. Real cars if you massively correct (or turn in uber fast) can briefly rip the tire patch contact from the track surface since too much wheel turn/steer occurred during a given wheel RPM rotation. However at all times the driver inputs are what made it happen, which is a key point. And on real cars there are ways to deal with that issue to good effect (alignment and corner entry strategy, more towards center point steering, and other things happening about 1/2-1 second before the issue may occur). And for pedal sets, some of our inputs can be made in ways that help lap time yet could not be replicated in real life. Is that ok?

There is also some crossover. I've been thinking about real car countersteer behavior. Since I found for-sure benefits in virtual racing, there should be some in reality too.

 

[Paul Hope]

Hi RacerXX,

I'm trying to understand what this advantage you speak of might be.

I assume you are using a standard loadcell on your CSP2 pedals. You have a rebound which at first appearance seems to rebound much quicker due it appearing to act as a one way damper. However... and by your own admission, the delay in the rebound is still there it is just that instead of it being on the pedal it has simply been transfered to the dampers piston and you have merely created some unwanted play in the pedals damping during continued repeated brake pumping instead.

...Or am I missing something really crucial here?