Fanatec CSW/CSR Elite Modders Thread *UPDATE February 2014*
- Thread starter eKretz
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- 36
- Sussex
Sorry about this off topic post. Could one of you motor savvy guys drop me a PM please. Im interested in modding my non PS3 compatible wheel (lol) and could so with a little help regarding upgrading the motor.
Im following this thread with great intrest. Love seeing stuff like this. Keep up the good work guys.
PS: Here's the Japanese guys blog translated
http://translate.google.co.uk/trans...&sa=X&ei=je9UUb_OAY3APJrJgagC&ved=0CDQQ7gEwAA
Im following this thread with great intrest. Love seeing stuff like this. Keep up the good work guys.
PS: Here's the Japanese guys blog translated
http://translate.google.co.uk/trans...&sa=X&ei=je9UUb_OAY3APJrJgagC&ved=0CDQQ7gEwAA
Firstly, thanks for all the responses, gents, I'm trying to answer all questions;
Well, firstly it has an overall "grainy" feel, compared to complete smoothness before, almost if a badly worn cog was in the way, or a collapsed bearing. Second, it feels like sometimes the FF cuts in-out (it becomes stronger/weaker then back). This is a random thing, but happens often enough to completely mess with my ability to race accurately. I also suspect that (at least) one fan gave up inside - not sure which, but I suspect it's the exhaust one - it used to whine during racing, now it's not.
The wheel is 5 years old.
Maybe I'd be better off just buying a new one, eh?
I've asked them to quote the price for sending the replacement, still waiting for a response. They came to the conclusion that the motor is the problem based on a video I've sent them: http://ysumail.com/public/20130323_094535.avi
Well, firstly it has an overall "grainy" feel, compared to complete smoothness before, almost if a badly worn cog was in the way, or a collapsed bearing. Second, it feels like sometimes the FF cuts in-out (it becomes stronger/weaker then back). This is a random thing, but happens often enough to completely mess with my ability to race accurately. I also suspect that (at least) one fan gave up inside - not sure which, but I suspect it's the exhaust one - it used to whine during racing, now it's not.
The wheel is 5 years old.
Maybe I'd be better off just buying a new one, eh?
I've asked them to quote the price for sending the replacement, still waiting for a response. They came to the conclusion that the motor is the problem based on a video I've sent them: http://ysumail.com/public/20130323_094535.avi
- 1,603
- IN
- Eric_J2358
It sounds like you do have a damaged commutator. RacerXX's method of redoing the water break-in could possibly bring it back, you should at least try it. Replacing the motor should be cheap and easy, but Fanatec can be difficult to get parts from out of warranty sometimes for some reason. You might be able to change to a slightly different motor with the same size and characteristics if you do some looking.
- 36
- Sussex
Hi. Im interested in possibly upgrading the motor in my MS 360 WRW wheel. I have a way to modify the electronics to get more power to the motor worked out. But, being worried about burning it out I'd like to find out a little about motors and see if there's a better one out there I could use. I think the stock motor is a size down from the Mabuchi 550's used by Fanatec.
In addition Im looking at replacing the spur gear wit ha pulley setup. I already did some experimenting with old parts from a printer:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vBmk6liikUk
- 1,603
- IN
- Eric_J2358
It's not real clear in the vid what kind of belt you have. Is it a cogged (synchronous) belt or a poly-v belt? I don't think a poly-v belt would work unless you changed the way the wheel's position is reported. It appears that the motor has an encoder on the shaft that reports position. This means if the belt slips you have no way of keeping the wheel aligned, so I hope you're using a synchronous belt. Can you see any numbers on the motor can or flux ring? Like 540, 550, etc? If not can you measure the diameter and length of the motor can? If you have one of these sizes there are a lot of replacement motors available. There are a lot of options really if you're modifying. What are your plans to get more power to the motor?
- 4,182
- Ottawa
- 36
- Sussex
Its a cogged (timing) belt but at only 3mm wide and with such a small pitch it doesn't have enough bite to cope with the torque from the motor. Im planning to get 2mm pitch pulleys and a 9mm belt soon.
The wheel position is recorded by a potentiometer coupled to the main wheel shaft. I would like to change this arrangement though. With the gear slop there is a noticeable dead zone in the FFB around center. However inside that dead zone there is still steering input to the game so it feels really unnatural going down the straights. I also think having the in game steering input directly related to the FFB motors movement should be better. That's how Fanatec and Logitech do it (except in the CSW/CSR). This also why Im looking into pulleys to replace the cogs. I want to reduce the gear slop (which will also make the wheel much quieter) and improve the feel.
The motor has 'JOHNSON' stamped on the pinion end and along the sleeve the numbers - '1060494' and '311312 28'. The diameter is 35mm and it is 50mm long.
What is a Flux Ring?
On the motor power: The MS WRW wheel uses a Allegro Micro A3950 driver chip. In the datasheet it states the chip is capable of 2.8A if run at its max voltage of 36v. The MS wheel runs 24v. So thats one way to up the FFB strength. This can be taken further though as 2 x A3950 ic's can be paralleled for around 5 to 6A peak (with adequate heatsinking). There is an identical chip made by Texas Instruments called the DVR8800, DRV8801. TI have a nice application note about running these chips in parallel: http://www.ti.com/lit/an/slva320/slva320.pdf
And relavent info here also: http://ebldc.com/?p=373
For me this seemed the simplest way as the main board logic is designed to use these chips so it a simple case of tapping into the signals and beefing up the PSU, in essense. There are even convenient via's on the PCB I could solder on to tap into the logic signals. There's even a small PCB I found on the net thats designed for 2 of these chips and could be used to run them in paralell with a little bit of modding: http://www.avayanelectronics.com/Products/AE_DualDC3A/ae_dualdc3a.html
Cheers for allowing the hijack BTW 👍
- 1,603
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- Eric_J2358
I got started on them last week, but I've decided to switch to aluminum since the price of just raw material for copper is pretty crazy right now. I'm also working on some experimental hand-winds on the Bühlers too, I want to see if I can obviate the need for some of the cooling. If anybody is interested I guess I could snap a few shots of the hand-winding process. I'm waiting for my magnet wire to arrive at the moment, got some good high temp stuff in a few different gages.
BnD, the flux ring or torque ring is the steel ring wrapped around the motor can used to help contain the magnetism. It basically redirects the flux of the magnet inside the can, making the field stronger.
Sounds like you've researched the power issues, so we'll concentrate on the other stuff. I think you'd be better off going to 3mm pitch since it's pretty commonly used. I think your motor is a 540. You could get any number of replacement motors. I'll see if I can find specs on that motor.
Hmm I've been digging through the Johnson Motor website and can't find anything with those numbers. Can you pull the flux ring and check under it? It's a 24V motor right? And about how old is the wheel? The website may not have anything if its too old.
BnD, the flux ring or torque ring is the steel ring wrapped around the motor can used to help contain the magnetism. It basically redirects the flux of the magnet inside the can, making the field stronger.
Sounds like you've researched the power issues, so we'll concentrate on the other stuff. I think you'd be better off going to 3mm pitch since it's pretty commonly used. I think your motor is a 540. You could get any number of replacement motors. I'll see if I can find specs on that motor.
Hmm I've been digging through the Johnson Motor website and can't find anything with those numbers. Can you pull the flux ring and check under it? It's a 24V motor right? And about how old is the wheel? The website may not have anything if its too old.
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- 36
- Sussex
Nothing under the Flux Ring Im afraid. It has a 3mm spindle with a flat if that helps?
Oh, there's something odd with the wiring also. There are the usual red and black wires but also an additional green (gnd) wire soldered to the can of the motor. Not sure what that's about.
Im wondering if simply replacing it with a Mabuchi 550RS will make any difference..
- 1,603
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- Eric_J2358
Well, why don't you try running it as-is, but with more power. Johnson motors look to be pretty decent quality. What is you end goal? More torque? More wheel speed? The green wire sounds like a ground wire. When I saw it in the vid (hard to see the specifics, never got a really clear shot to see if there was an encoder) I thought it was an encoder signal wire! 
- 36
- Sussex
Hehe!
Off the bat I could up supply the voltage to 30v and not need to change any components.
I'd like Stronger FFB in general, speed and torque ideally. I don't necessarily want a really heavy wheel but I want the FFB effects to be more pronounced. If the wheel snaps back to center faster that would be a bonus, especially for rally games.
Do you know much about rotary encoders? Im trying to find out how to replace the pot with a encoder but cant find the info I need.
- 36
- Sussex
Thanks for the info 👍
The motor seems to have zero cogging and is there is very little friction. As eKretz said I think I should probably start by upping the juice to the stock motor and see how I get on. I've added a motor heatsink and small fan to help it keep cool.
Would be nice to try a Fana-Buchi in there just to see though.
- 36
- Sussex
I cant use WheelCheck as its the original MS WRW for xbox 360. It is PC compatible but when MS wrote the driver sofware they forgot to enable FFB. So it does work on PC but without FFB. Hoping some software genius might do something to remedy that someday...
Whats the best way to do the fishscale test?
Oh, and whats viddies?
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- Eric_J2358
Haha, I think it's more that they feel like they're being teased and taunted rather than not being aware or preferring not to realize that there are better ways to reach goals. But maybe I'm wrong. It might be better to give everyone a general idea of what you've discovered than to say, "I found something that works great for this problem everyone's having, but I'm not going to share it." I think most are looking to share info here and some maybe feel like you're a bit evasive with certain answers, lol. At least that's the way it looks to me by some of their responses and PMs.
Hey RXX, how do you think a coreless motor would work? I've seen some of these and they have ridiculous torque and practically next to nothing for rotor inertia. It might be too hard to get rid of heat though since there's no "sink" effect from the iron core. Wonder if it would be worth trying a couple eBay versions. I think some of the very best motors made today are Maxon, Faulhaber, etc. but boy are those suckers expensive. Close to $500 for one motor the size of the Bühlers.
Hey RXX, how do you think a coreless motor would work? I've seen some of these and they have ridiculous torque and practically next to nothing for rotor inertia. It might be too hard to get rid of heat though since there's no "sink" effect from the iron core. Wonder if it would be worth trying a couple eBay versions. I think some of the very best motors made today are Maxon, Faulhaber, etc. but boy are those suckers expensive. Close to $500 for one motor the size of the Bühlers.
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- 4,182
- Ottawa
I do not yet know how this is differing between the other things you have posted? You are talking about many things and including very few details always... This is fine.
What I am confusing about is why we see no video or pictures to support these comments. You show the brake made but that is all. Why is this? You speak frequently of using 4 motors but there is no proof of this.
I am not meaning to be rude. It is simple fact that people may be more curious if these things were done rather than whether they are being hidden. Because of this I do not think you not saying this will be upsetting. It is normal for you so I would not worry.
Why this talk of selling?
I think many would like to see a photo of 4 motors mounted in wheel ready to use. Better would be video even on your blog.
You do seem to have annoyance about these questions but you should not. It may be nice to have pictures which you often post accompany your comments. Without these people wonder. Like me.
What is wrong with a simple photo as you post so many others? We have only seen posts with things on cloth on tables. Indulge us some instead of being upset.
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- Eric_J2358
I understand where RXX is coming from, I guess it's more of a personality thing maybe. I understand the other side of it too, though. Some people like to show everybody their stuff and help others learn, some don't. Just like some people believe everything they read on the internet or are told, and some don't. I have seen a few things and talked about a few things with RXX that he hasn't posted here, I am certain that he is doing what he says he is doing, I don't feel he's just making up stories.
On another note, since a lot of people have been asking me through PM's about availability of better motors, I contacted a guy that actually makes his own custom motors and invited him to work something up and see what he can possibly do. His name is John Holmes and his company is Holmes Hobbies. If there are enough people interested and he gets something worked out that is effective, maybe if enough people buy them we can get price to a reasonable level. He is going to try to hit the Buhler pricepoint, which are ~$120 new.
And also, RXX, no comments on the coreless motors?
On another note, since a lot of people have been asking me through PM's about availability of better motors, I contacted a guy that actually makes his own custom motors and invited him to work something up and see what he can possibly do. His name is John Holmes and his company is Holmes Hobbies. If there are enough people interested and he gets something worked out that is effective, maybe if enough people buy them we can get price to a reasonable level. He is going to try to hit the Buhler pricepoint, which are ~$120 new.
And also, RXX, no comments on the coreless motors?
