FCA Dealer Vegas Show Details.

[psntomaz]

From allpar forum:

Ok so lots of news from the dealer show, some unexpected stuff, stuff we kinda knew was coming and confirmation of other things discussed here. They were told everything shown is 12-24 months out from being on the lots.

Jeep
1. Grand Wagoneer is official as expected and will be going after Land Rover.
2. Wrangler was shown at the end of the show, SM specifically mentioned that it will get at least 30 mpg(diesel, but wasn't specifically mentioned) was announced as a 2017.
3.Grand Cherokee Trackhawk- 700 hp, AWD Hellcat powered, 0-60 in under 3 seconds(2.7).
4. New Subcompact Jeep was shown.
5. New Compass is based off the Renegade platform and looks like a mix of the current version and the Grand Cherokee.

Chrysler
1. New SUV/CUV that's bigger than the Durango(possibly shared with the Grand Wagoneer)
2. T&C- plug in hybrid confirmed, much simpler stow and go. As expected the Grand Caravan is done in the US. It will continue on in Canada and the rest of the world.

Ram
1. New Power Wagon, apparently much more focused than the current model
2. They showed the 2018 Ram and I was told it's going to be a game changer. I'm trying to get more details.

Dodge
1. Durango SRT is official. 6.4 RWD
2. They showed the next gen Charger, much more streamlined and takes cues from the 99 Charger R/T concept
3. They showed a street legal Challenger Drag car with some version of the Hellcat making more than 707.
4. Showed the Dart refresh, no SRT version. AWD will be an option. 300 HP engine will be optional across ALL trim levels. Basically you will be able to get the performance with whatever level of equipment you want instead of having to pay for a R/T or SRT.
5. Brand new Cuda coupe and convertible, smaller than the Challenger with modern styling.

My eyes didn't stay for the Fiat part since they don't sell them. He did say that the Giulia was there and looks awesome.

Wagoneer is going to be 60k+, Trackhawk is expected to start 10-15k above the 2016 Challenger Hellcat.

 

[YSSMAN]

I'm actually surprised how much of this is give/take in line with the Five Year Plan from last year. Even if most of this is already delayed quite a bit.

• Grand Wagoneer: I'd like to know how necessary something like this is. I mean, on the one hand, it makes sense to finally have a competitor to the luxury SUVs, but I don't really get why it'd need to be bigger than the Grand Cherokee... Let alone how much more luxurious it'd actually be. So, Range Rover is the target... Great. How do they expect to pack in the features necessary, let alone the capability, to beat it on price? Is the Land Cruiser chopped liver at this point?
• New Wrangler is a Wrangler is a Wrangler. Its the bread-and-butter for FCA, they won't **** it up. Other reports seemed to indicate that they're taking a Porsche approach, again, and just nipping and tucking on the same elements we've had since forever. Okay.
• Cherokee Hellcat: Always down for more Hellcat. At $80k, it seems like a decent value, too. Still makes me wish GM would do a LT4-powered Tahoe.
• Compass: Why? Honestly, why? I mean, the Compass never sold nearly as well as the Patriot - which is exactly what the Renegade replaced. And if people wanted a round Renegade, why wouldn't you just point them to a 500X? I mean, unless the Compass is basically a de-contented, even softer road 500X... Why would it be anywhere near a decent option? I just don't get this decision.
• Chrysler's Tahoe Competitor: They need it, that's for damn sure. I think my concern here would be how easily they could set it apart from the Grand Wagoneer, let alone, the slightly smaller Durango. If it mimics the premium feel of the 200C, I could see it being an interesting counterbalance not to the Tahoe, but, to the Yukon - but the thing they'd need to sell on would have to be outright reliability and capability, something every FCA vehicle needs desperately. At this point, you buy a GMTK2 because not much is going to break. I don't know if a Chrysler can ever get there.
• Town and Country: Man, this thing better be good. Getting rid of the Grand Caravan instead of the T&C still feels like a bad move to me, but, "branding." I'd be interested to hear if they plan on moving the van further upmarket in some trims, like the 200C vs 200 Limited, to differentiate it from the Sienna and so on. But, this also assumes that FCA knows what they're doing.
• Ram Stuff: Trucks, guys! Trucks! More Raptor competition? Go for it. Sounds like the Power Wagon will be serious business... Rest of the trucks much better. Considering that the Ram is the only one that's been forcing GM and Ford to move the chains as of late, I'm all for it.
• Durango SRT: K. I mean, I thought the R/T was 9/10ths an SRT. How much more can they do other than add power?
• Charger: Why the '99 concept as inspiration? I mean, back in '99, it was cool as hell... But it has not aged well at all. It actually worries me a bit that they'd go that route simply because the current updates on the car look so good (door skins not included). Granted, I can see where they'd get stuck with the current language, and aside from the earlier Chargers historically, there aren't many successful designs to go with. I dunno. Something new is nice... But not the '99 Concept. Not at all. BUT HEY - NEW CHASSIS! AND STUFF! No more Mercedes!
• Barracuda: Smaller size, smaller engine (according to Jalopnik - 340ci V8), convertible? All sounds like good decisions to make considering the competition, and I'd certainly be curious to see how the lower trimmed Barracudas would be equipped. Man, I'd love to see a fast-back model return again, but I already know that's a long shot. Cool kids know, of course, that the Barracuda was waaaaaay cooler than the Mustang early on.
• Dart: FINALLY THEY'RE DOING IT. Jesus H. White Christ, someone at Dodge got around to going, "Hey, these things are kinda expensive, aren't they? And they depreciate like a rock? Maybe we should do something..." Christ. The fact that you can't find an affordable Dart, ****ing anywhere, is so ****ing stupid on behalf of FCA, I honestly can't fathom it most of the time. When Foci and Cruzes are flying off the shelves, these things sit and sit and sit and sit even with $5000+ taken off the top. Hint: Offer the damn thing with what people want, not what you'd think would sell. The Jalopnik reported return of the GLH badge is crazy-awesome to me, and making that model kick off at under $20K (read, $19,995) is a hell of a deal - same with putting that 300 BHP 1.8T in every model. You crazy, FCA... Curious to know how the Dart R/T AWD would go, particularly with that engine. Sounds like it'll almost be the spiritual successor to the Evo in a strange way.

 

[psntomaz]

I'm actually surprised how much of this is give/take in line with the Five Year Plan from last year. Even if most of this is already delayed quite a bit.

• Grand Wagoneer: I'd like to know how necessary something like this is. I mean, on the one hand, it makes sense to finally have a competitor to the luxury SUVs, but I don't really get why it'd need to be bigger than the Grand Cherokee... Let alone how much more luxurious it'd actually be. So, Range Rover is the target... Great. How do they expect to pack in the features necessary, let alone the capability, to beat it on price? Is the Land Cruiser chopped liver at this point?
• New Wrangler is a Wrangler is a Wrangler. Its the bread-and-butter for FCA, they won't **** it up. Other reports seemed to indicate that they're taking a Porsche approach, again, and just nipping and tucking on the same elements we've had since forever. Okay.
• Cherokee Hellcat: Always down for more Hellcat. At $80k, it seems like a decent value, too. Still makes me wish GM would do a LT4-powered Tahoe.
• Compass: Why? Honestly, why? I mean, the Compass never sold nearly as well as the Patriot - which is exactly what the Renegade replaced. And if people wanted a round Renegade, why wouldn't you just point them to a 500X? I mean, unless the Compass is basically a de-contented, even softer road 500X... Why would it be anywhere near a decent option? I just don't get this decision.

The Renegade Replaced the Liberty. THe Compass, which there are new Spyshots of. Is the Replacement of the Compass.

• Chrysler's Tahoe Competitor: They need it, that's for damn sure. I think my concern here would be how easily they could set it apart from the Grand Wagoneer, let alone, the slightly smaller Durango. If it mimics the premium feel of the 200C, I could see it being an interesting counterbalance not to the Tahoe, but, to the Yukon - but the thing they'd need to sell on would have to be outright reliability and capability, something every FCA vehicle needs desperately. At this point, you buy a GMTK2 because not much is going to break. I don't know if a Chrysler can ever get there.

Its Not Going to be based on the Wagoneer, it will be Based on the Minivan

• Town and Country: Man, this thing better be good. Getting rid of the Grand Caravan instead of the T&C still feels like a bad move to me, but, "branding." I'd be interested to hear if they plan on moving the van further upmarket in some trims, like the 200C vs 200 Limited, to differentiate it from the Sienna and so on. But, this also assumes that FCA knows what they're doing.

Caravan Will be sold in Other Markets

• Ram Stuff: Trucks, guys! Trucks! More Raptor competition? Go for it. Sounds like the Power Wagon will be serious business... Rest of the trucks much better. Considering that the Ram is the only one that's been forcing GM and Ford to move the chains as of late, I'm all for it.
• Durango SRT: K. I mean, I thought the R/T was 9/10ths an SRT. How much more can they do other than add power?

100 more Horsepower and the Brakes to stop it

• 
  
• Charger: Why the '99 concept as inspiration? I mean, back in '99, it was cool as hell... But it has not aged well at all. It actually worries me a bit that they'd go that route simply because the current updates on the car look so good (door skins not included). Granted, I can see where they'd get stuck with the current language, and aside from the earlier Chargers historically, there aren't many successful designs to go with. I dunno. Something new is nice... But not the '99 Concept. Not at all. BUT HEY - NEW CHASSIS! AND STUFF! No more Mercedes!

Its a Charger, they goal is to bring back as much as possible to the late 60's design. We will have Americans only 4 Door Sedan.

• Barracuda: Smaller size, smaller engine (according to Jalopnik - 340ci V8), convertible? All sounds like good decisions to make considering the competition, and I'd certainly be curious to see how the lower trimmed Barracudas would be equipped. Man, I'd love to see a fast-back model return again, but I already know that's a long shot. Cool kids know, of course, that the Barracuda was waaaaaay cooler than the Mustang early on.
• Dart: FINALLY THEY'RE DOING IT. Jesus H. White Christ, someone at Dodge got around to going, "Hey, these things are kinda expensive, aren't they? And they depreciate like a rock? Maybe we should do something..." Christ. The fact that you can't find an affordable Dart, ****ing anywhere, is so ****ing stupid on behalf of FCA, I honestly can't fathom it most of the time. When Foci and Cruzes are flying off the shelves, these things sit and sit and sit and sit even with $5000+ taken off the top. Hint: Offer the damn thing with what people want, not what you'd think would sell. The Jalopnik reported return of the GLH badge is crazy-awesome to me, and making that model kick off at under $20K (read, $19,995) is a hell of a deal - same with putting that 300 BHP 1.8T in every model. You crazy, FCA... Curious to know how the Dart R/T AWD would go, particularly with that engine. Sounds like it'll almost be the spiritual successor to the Evo in a strange way.

The 300hp Engine will be Optional on Every trim, same goes for AWD. This means the 1.8T should crank out a Standard 240hp. The 2.0T Hurrican is the 300hp version.

 

[YSSMAN]

So they may as well call the big Chrysler SUV the Pacifica again. Got it.

It always baffled me as to why they didn't do a second-gen Pacifica when they otherwise invented the category that later went on to be dominated by the Lambda bodied GM crossovers. By all means it was a model ahead of its time, even if the quality wasn't quite up to snuff by the end.

 

[bremics]

300 hp AWD Dart? Sounds nice, but I wonder what the catches will be, aka heavier, auto only, understeer like mad, crazy expensive, even more unreliable, etc.

Also on the spiritual Evo comment? I doubt it will have S-AWC, WRX competition at best.

With added optional engine and AWD I expect it to be over $30k at least.

 

[psntomaz]

This wouldn't be the Same Dart as we know now. Also with the Dart. the 300hp Engine would be Option across all trims. same goes for AWD. But i assume the 300hp will be matted to AWD online like the 200S AWD is only available with the V6

 

[bremics]

This wouldn't be the Same Dart as we know now. Also with the Dart. the 300hp Engine would be Option across all trims. same goes for AWD. But i assume the 300hp will be matted to AWD online like the 200S AWD is only available with the V6

Did they redo the chassis and crap? I just expected a minor face lift.

Trims or not, starting at $16.5k, doubling the horsepower from base has to be at least $5k.

Then the AWD likely adds another $5k.

I can't see the bare bones version with AWD costing less than $26k.

 

[Grandea GTR]

Did they redo the chassis and crap? I just expected a minor face lift.

Trims or not, starting at $16.5k, doubling the horsepower from base has to be at least $5k.

Then the AWD likely adds another $5k.

I can't see the bare bones version with AWD costing less than $26k.

I would most likely say a base AWD Dart would probably be about $18-21k.

 

[bremics]

I would most likely say a base AWD Dart would probably be about $18-21k.

With the 300hp Engine though?

I don't think 157hp is enough to make it a Evo successor

$21k would be a $4.5k increase over base so I could see that.

+edit+

Ah, I see the point of confusion. I meant the AWD with 300 hp. Oops.

 

[Grandea GTR]

With the 300hp Engine though?

I don't think 157hp is enough to make it a Evo successor

We're talking about a base Dart, right?

Hold up.

*Checks OP again

Wait wat

 

[bremics]

We're talking about a base Dart, right?

Hold up.

*Checks OP again

Wait wat

Yeah, 1.8L turbo with 300 hp... More than the 2.0 T in the Genesis... Don't recall how much it has compared to the SRT4.

2.4 L with 230 hp.

***** are they getting so much power of a 1.8

So the last gen Dart was about 100 lbs lighter and the new engine has 30 more horsepower. Add AWD and I think the Dart will be a 100 lbs heavier. Will be interesting to see the pricing.

I think the STi will be out of its class, but it could prove a solid competitor to the WRX.

I wonder if they will try to compare it with the Ford RS?

 

[Omnis]

300hp 1.8 liter? Lol. Good luck getting beyond 50k on the odo.

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

Yeah, 1.8L turbo with 300 hp... More than the 2.0 T in the Genesis... Don't recall how much it has compared to the SRT4.

2.4 L with 230 hp.

***** are they getting so much power of a 1.8

So the last gen Dart was about 100 lbs lighter and the new engine has 30 more horsepower. Add AWD and I think the Dart will be a 100 lbs heavier. Will be interesting to see the pricing.

I think the STi will be out of its class, but it could prove a solid competitor to the WRX.

I wonder if they will try to compare it with the Ford RS?

Depends on the year for the SRT4 neon since it was rated anywhere from 230-260hp. As for a 1.8T doing even that I just don't see how forget about 300hp. I mean are they actually planning a ground up build, cause I highly doubt it from Chrysler.

As for the RS, if you think the STi is out of reach then you might as well put the RS right with the STi.

 

[bremics]

Depends on the year for the SRT4 neon since it was rated anywhere from 230-260hp. As for a 1.8T doing even that I just don't see how forget about 300hp. I mean are they actually planning a ground up build, cause I highly doubt it from Chrysler.

As for the RS, if you think the STi is out of reach then you might as well put the RS right with the STi.

Pretty sure there was a post showing a base(?) Focus RS for $35k.

So this super Dart would be the same price or cheaper and be a "Italian" sedan which will appeal to the "ew hatchback " group.

Doesn't the STi start at $40k+?

Perhaps the 1.8 is a mistake and it's meant to be 2.8? The flat 4 in the WRX is a 2.6 right?

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

Pretty sure there was a post showing a base(?) Focus RS for $35k.

So this super Dart would be the same price or cheaper and be a "Italian" sedan which will appeal to the "ew hatchback " group.

Doesn't the STi start at $40k+?

Perhaps the 1.8 is a mistake and it's meant to be 2.8? The flat 4 in the WRX is a 2.6 right?

2.5 unless they changed something and if it was a 2.8 it'd be a new engine because no where does FCA have something like this. Also at 2.8 if that were the case (probably isn't though)..why not just make it easier on themselves and do a V6 3L and easily get the same power.

 

[YSSMAN]

I guess I'm confused as to where the bones of the 1.8T comes from in the first place.

Is this just a stroked 1.6 MultiAir? A furthering of the 1.7 MultiAir in the 4C? Or a completely new design? It being Fiat, I'd probably go more towards the first, and I'd be curious to know how well the power output has improved across the band. I seem to remember people saying the 1.4T was pretty peaky, the main reason why the 2.4L Tigershark almost entirely replaced it in the Dart for 2014+ models. Hell, where are we even expecting power outputs to go to... Is it a straight replacement for the Tigershark, sitting around 180 BHP? More than 200 BHP?

As for this Hurricane business, I thought I had been put under the impression before that this was FCA slapping a turbo on the Tigershark - which would make a hell of a lot more sense than 300 BHP out of a 1.8L. Sure, AMG gets 335 BHP out of a 2.0L, and BMW tops out at 240 with their 2.0L, GM cuts off at 270 with their 2.0L - I honestly can't think of anything that comes close to that kind of output at a sub-2.0L displacement. Maybe the dealer dudes didn't read it right (do they ever?), but it just seems silly how much engineering would have to go into that... Let alone having it available in every model... With potentially crazy build numbers.

Also on the spiritual Evo comment? I doubt it will have S-AWC, WRX competition at best.

I guess in my mind, I'm seeing it more as a continuation of where the Evo VII and VIII left off than the techno powerhouse than the IX and X ended up being. Big turbo power, solid AWD option (fair bet is a Haldex-type setup like what's on the 200), and hopefully a stick. Best of all, if its cheap (like the Evo and WRX used to be), it really carries the banner for a segment that has otherwise disappeared.

 

[CodeRedR51]

I honestly can't think of anything that comes close to that kind of output at a sub-2.0L displacement.

You can easily get 300hp out of a stock Mazda BP 1.6L, but that's aftermarket so....

 

[Legro]

I'm not sure how they're going to make the Grand Wagoneer competitive in the same market as the Range Rover, especially outside North America. People who buy such vehicles have mostly already decided which one they'll have even before considering buying another one, and I find it unlikely that those who haven't would choose one by brand that's known for producing lower-market models.

The Cuda sounds interesting, though. I think they might have hit the right spot with smaller and cheaper sportscar under the Challenger. I'm certainly waiting what they'll come up with that one.

Sure, AMG gets 335 BHP out of a 2.0L, and BMW tops out at 240 with their 2.0L, GM cuts off at 270 with their 2.0L - I honestly can't think of anything that comes close to that kind of output at a sub-2.0L displacement.

Volkswagen/Audi got 300 hp out of their 2.0, and PSA has 270 hp 1.6, so I wouldn't deem the 1.8, certainly out yet, especially if it's developed by the Italians, in case they've came up with a use for such engine themselves.

 

[hasslemoff]

I guess I'm confused as to where the bones of the 1.8T comes from in the first place.

Is this just a stroked 1.6 MultiAir? A furthering of the 1.7 MultiAir in the 4C?

The 4C and the Giulietta QV don't run the Multi Air engine. Its was a new aluminium block engine for the 4C, which currently runs at 240 bhp in the 4c and G. A extra 60 bhp is doable out of the engine with a bit of tuning and a few more tweaks and even hits 40000 miles on the odo without going boom and still going.

 

[YSSMAN]

But going "boom!" is the FCA way!

 

[GTboyz]

300 hp Dart out of 1.8l turbo ? Well this is interesting....

Cuda, newly refreshed Charger sounds cool too.

 

[bremics]

I'm curious about the Cuda, a smaller Challenger would be amazing and possibly make me regret buying the Genesis and not waiting a couple years.

Is this all the details they have so far? Also the "modern styling" comment makes me wonder if it's going to be semi-italian style like the Dart.