Female Car Enthusiasts

[TenEightyOne]

These kind of stereotyping is the main core for Socialism.

Which in particular? Villa/City?

 

[FoRiZon]

Which in particular? Villa/City?

Well, safe to say, whole country.

Not sure to pick either, although the village one is more "traditional". But im against limiting someones freedom of life choice ESPECIALLY for as simplistic as gender.

 

[FoolKiller]

@FoolKiller I should first say that I'm sorry, my first thought when replying to Keef was to ignore his mention of you and your daughter but then I reconsidered thinking I'd explained what I meant well enough, but now reading your reply I regret doing so regardless of how adequately I explained what I was trying to say. I didn't mean to make it personal or anything, but I should've seen that's exactly what I was doing - sorry about that. Also I have to admit I haven't actually read any of the other posts except Keef's first and second because I wanted to respond to those directly so I've clearly missed something.

If I came off as being upset or offended I apologize. That was not my intent. It may seem snippy because I was running short on time and rushed to type it up. Also, I tend to be wordy. It isn't a rant. It's just me.

Well, to me it would mean that the things you did when she was younger took hold and she was less influenced by the interactions she had with society 'in the wild', I suppose. I'm not exactly sure I understand what you're getting at here, though, you might need to dumb it down/explain a little for me.

So it still isn't her making a natural decision. It is influence. The only difference is people think it might be better this way because I break social norms. Truth is, I'd be doing the exact same things with a boy. I just don't know how to do girly things. I'm not some groundbreaking parent. I'm a dude who knows jack all about girls.

As much as I hate conformity, it is social expectations that make us get along in a community. Look around you. There are hundreds of things you do a certain way, not because the law says so, but because you don't want to be an ass. Being an ass is subjective to the observer. The jokes my friends and I make at each other would not go over well in many groups. We don't say those things around other people because it would be highly offensive outside our group.

Of course, I wasn't questioning that at all and I apologise if it came across that way. However, it seems that you're talking about filtering the information society is broadcasting through every possible channel, but the it's message you're filtering that I was referring to. Things like photoshopped models on magazine covers, the idealised presentation of men and women on TV, in films and in music videos, music itself and how it talks about men and women, games and how they shape what boys (and girls, to a lesser extent) think a woman should be and what's an acceptable way of interacting with women, strangers/friends/teachers at school, on the street, at home, on the phone, on the internet and so on all acting on how they've interpreted this data, so on and so forth. It's far beyond the scope of this thread to try to work out from where this message has originated, who perpetuates it (if it's any single entity - I personally think it's just societal memes, for the most part, backed up by advertising), whether they're doing it consciously or not and so on, but the fact is notions like 'marry a rich man and make babies' or 'women aren't supposed to be engineers' have come from somewhere. Keef is right in that they originated 160,000 years or more ago, but they're severely out of date notions and yet they're still being perpetuated.

I should point out that we cut the cable a long time ago. TV viewing is her pointing at the shows on the Netflix Kids page that she wants to watch. I should also note that she recently asked if she could watch a Superman cartoon with me and now looks forward to our nightly episode of the Justice League cartoon. She also likes me to tie her blanket on like a cape so she can play Superman, which she learned from a boy at school.

That's another outside influence that is going against type. She is choosing which influences she wants to react to. I find that curious. In these discussions we forget to account for the fact that there are other influences and we react to the ones we choose. I grew up in a farming community as a nerd who wanted to play video games and read comic books and worried about getting into certain colleges. My group of friends was small. We were the rare few. If societal pressure is the only influence then I'd have been wearing cowboy boots and trying to have the biggest belt buckle (seriously, that was a matter of pride in my school). I was drawn to comic books and created my circle of friends based on that. No one in my family read comic books. There was no outside influence regarding it. My dad let me watch Superman 3 when he watched it and I was hooked. I asked him to get me the first two. Everything I wanted from that day forward was Superman related. I even had a music box. There is video of my fifth birthday where everything is Superman themed.

We could point at my dad as the influence, but then there were tons of cartoons I watched while he sat with me that I apologize for today. His response was always, "You liked it so I sat there with you."

We want to oversimplify it.

This is me getting wordy again. Not arguing with you. I am aware that you said:

I agree completely, maybe I came across wrong or didn't read my posts thoroughly enough before posting them.

You will also notice there was a double space between paragraphs where I wasn't intending to directly respond to you, but make a general statement.

What I've been talking about isn't about making women be more like men, it's about removing the obstacles that women have should they wish to take on traditionally male roles and vice versa, that's what equality is in my opinion.

I agree with this, and for the most part I believe we are nearly there. I think on an executive level you will need a generation for the old guard to leave before women can even get a shot at those roles, but there are more female executives all the time.

That said, my view may be off kilter, as I work in an organization with a 70% female workforce. And our top management is so proud of that fact.

But I took the approach I did because you can see throughout this thread that comments have been made that women don't even wish to choose those roles because they have been influenced to the point of brainwashing.

As I said before, what would satisfy me is if a woman could just decide one day that she wants to be an engineer and then go and do it the exact same way I did, without any additional friction caused by her gender. If not one single woman ever actually does it makes no difference to me whatsoever, it's their decision and if they're happy doing what they're doing then that's great. But, if it would make them happy to be an engineer and something, anything was stopping them or preventing them from achieving what I am able to achieve just because she's a woman - that's not good.

I don't see these things holding them back. The females of my generation in my family are a marine biologist, an optometrist, and a bank manager at a local bank. I also know female account executives at Churchill Downs (horse racetrack company). As a manager myself I only had two males vs four females in higher ranks in my department.

That doesn't mean that I don't think there aren't places with glass ceilings, but as far as becoming what you want, no one is holding them back in the educational or professional world. Family is a whole other thing.

Choice of childhood toys isn't the be-all and end-all, but I recently saw a photo (I wish I could find it) of two packets of five Lego figures. The blue 'boy' box had five men who were engineers, scientists and doctors, while the pink 'girl' box had, I don't even know what, one was a baker, I remember that much. In any case, it prompted this, which is fair enough really.

There is a company called Goldieblox, started by female engineers to design building blocks for girls. The first set was a dress shop (two steps back?) NDA has since been rebranded as TheSpinning Machine. My daughter had that one and quickly got bored. Then we got her the parade float. She liked it but it was a very short time before she turned it into a car.

 

[Ramanujan]

I am repelled by the people who like to ignore the difference between boys and girls to call them equal.
The sexes are not the same, so they have different values, strong points and behaviour.

This is not to say some woman like male stuff, and some males like female stuff. But the most common way things go is that women are acting like woman and males act like men. This is not a bad thing!

So could we please stop with forcing girls to behave like boys, and boys to behave like girls?

Every gender deserves to life the way it wants, don't force anything on anybody, certainly on a young age.
This is no way of saying one gender is better than the other, but they are both better in some things than the other.

 

[Bopop4]

I am repelled by the people who like to ignore the difference between boys and girls to call them equal.
The sexes are not the same, so they have different values, strong points and behaviour.

This is not to say some woman like male stuff, and some males like female stuff. But the most common way things go is that women are acting like woman and males act like men. This is not a bad thing!

So could we please stop with forcing girls to behave like boys, and boys to behave like girls?

Every gender deserves to life the way it wants, don't force anything on anybody, certainly on a young age.
This is no way of saying one gender is better than the other, but they are both better in some things than the other.

You've missed the point and all the posts that go with it by soooo much.

 

[FoRiZon]

I am repelled by the people who like to ignore the difference between boys and girls to call them equal.
The sexes are not the same, so they have different values, strong points and behaviour.

This is not to say some woman like male stuff, and some males like female stuff. But the most common way things go is that women are acting like woman and males act like men. This is not a bad thing!

So could we please stop with forcing girls to behave like boys, and boys to behave like girls?

Every gender deserves to life the way it wants, don't force anything on anybody, certainly on a young age.
This is no way of saying one gender is better than the other, but they are both better in some things than the other.

The real problem isnt why people on one gender cant do or interested to do the other genders thing, but why people force it on them.

Id say let them be. Why forcing anything in the first place TBH. Ex. Girls likes to be fashion designer? Fine. An engineer? Also fine. Real problem is mainstream people like to force into the first and goes unreasonably mad when finds out the second.

 

[Encyclopedia]

I am repelled by the people who like to ignore the difference between boys and girls to call them equal.
The sexes are not the same, so they have different values, strong points and behaviour.

This is not to say some woman like male stuff, and some males like female stuff. But the most common way things go is that women are acting like woman and males act like men. This is not a bad thing!

So could we please stop with forcing girls to behave like boys, and boys to behave like girls?

Every gender deserves to life the way it wants, don't force anything on anybody, certainly on a young age.
This is no way of saying one gender is better than the other, but they are both better in some things than the other.

People have basically argued for the opposite in this thread. Yes there are general differences between the sexes but there's also a huge difference between individuals, and also some overlapping. Hence why gender norms can be bad. They define people by their gender rather than person.

Wanting to get rid of these norms is the opposite of forcing girls to be boys and boys to be girls.

 

[mirial]

I am repelled by the people who like to ignore the difference between boys and girls to call them equal.
The sexes are not the same, so they have different values, strong points and behaviour.

This is not to say some woman like male stuff, and some males like female stuff. But the most common way things go is that women are acting like woman and males act like men. This is not a bad thing!

So could we please stop with forcing girls to behave like boys, and boys to behave like girls?

Every gender deserves to life the way it wants, don't force anything on anybody, certainly on a young age.
This is no way of saying one gender is better than the other, but they are both better in some things than the other.

Give everyone a free choice without recommending or exposing impressionable youngsters how you must look or behave because it makes those that aren't comfortable with it feel insecure and confused. I'd say it's likely feminists are angry at the imprisonment their female ancestors lived through by virtue of the church, so let those women that want to become masculinised to get on par with men feel free to do so.....it seems the majority of contemporary men don't oppose it and find it very attractive anyway. So let them gain well toned muscular figures with mosaics of tattoos and assertive mannerisms if that's what they want.

I liked this quote on another forum: "Real men don't want an intimate on-going relationship with the equivalent of another male competitor who just happens to have a female anatomy."

And another from a research paper titled:

East European Women and the Battle of the Sexes
in American Culture

"Whenever I meet an EE girl who acts masculine, I ask her if she has lived in America or Britain. Most of the time, the answer is yes. Even once back in her homeland, she keeps a lot of masculine habits. She was been infected with a virus that has no immediate cure."


What a shame if this is true. Whilst It's none of my business what happens in America since I've never even been, I am entitled to an opinion that has an effect on the UK. In Northern Ireland with it's largely Presbyterian culture, has still managed to preserve traditional behaviours where many women still love good manners and being treated well.

 

[Katiegan]

I am repelled by the people who like to ignore the difference between boys and girls to call them equal.
The sexes are not the same, so they have different values, strong points and behaviour.

This is not to say some woman like male stuff, and some males like female stuff. But the most common way things go is that women are acting like woman and males act like men. This is not a bad thing!

So could we please stop with forcing girls to behave like boys, and boys to behave like girls?

Every gender deserves to life the way it wants, don't force anything on anybody, certainly on a young age.
This is no way of saying one gender is better than the other, but they are both better in some things than the other.

This is far from the point we're trying to make here. The point we're trying to make here is that parents are forcing their children to follow the gender stereotypes to a point where anyone who dares to go out of the 'norm' is judged.

Personally, I think the media has something to do with it. You're forever seeing those glossy mags filled with size zero models, and shows about the Kardashians or other 'reality' shows that are equally as pain inducing. Girls see these size zero women or see these Kardashians and think that is what a girl should be. The glossy mags bully any celebrity that has an ounce of fat on them, or any celebrity that just so happens to be popping to the corner shop for a morning paper and didn't bother putting any make-up on, and just promote women as these skinny little things that were only made to stand around and look pretty.

But again, parents can start to come into this. Parents are allowing their children to watch these things (which, might I add, I have no problem with), but then don't tell their children they don't have to look like that, or they don't have to be like that. Throughout my childhood my mother always told me to not care what other people thought of me and to just be myself. Don't live your day to please everyone, live it to please yourself. So that's what I did. I didn't play with the other girls at school, I played with the boys. I didn't do handstands or cartwheels with the other girls at lunchtime, I played football or armies with the boys. I'd run around the playground pretending to drive a car (a MK1 Focus RS, for the record), I'd play with Hot Wheels and Matchbox at home, and my best friend was a boy. Now, let me just stress that I wasn't forced to behave 'out of the ordinary', my mum just told me to be myself and do what I wanted to do, not what others wanted me to do, and the things that I just so happened to want to do was play with the boys and play with toy cars. That was never, ever, forced upon me, in fact my mum tells me she tried to get me into more girly things, but I just wanted boys toys. And she was okay with that. She let me play with the boys, she let me have boys toys, even if I wasn't like the other girls my age. I believe that helped me a great deal to where I am today. I didn't, and still don't care about what others thought of me, and I wasn't bothered if I wasn't following any social groups. I knew from the age of 6 that I wanted to be a mechanic, and that ambition never changed. Had my mother not taught me to be myself and not care what others thought of me, I might have changed my ambitions to 'fit in', and I might not be training to be a mechanic today.

Too many people these days are followers instead of leaders and are too afraid to step out of the 'norm' and what is expected of them, and I think parents need to tell their children from a young age that they don't have to be a follower, and they don't have to do or be what is expected of them. If you're telling your child that, then I salute you.

 

[FoRiZon]

@Ramanujan So many replies. Given up yet?

 

[Roo]

@Ramanujan So many replies. Given up yet?

As he's not been online since he made that post - a mere 5 hours before you posted that - I wouldn't suggest he's given up. Maybe he just has a life outside GTP. (What a weird thought!)

 

[Scaff]

And another from a research paper titled:

East European Women and the Battle of the Sexes
in American Culture

"Whenever I meet an EE girl who acts masculine, I ask her if she has lived in America or Britain. Most of the time, the answer is yes. Even once back in her homeland, she keeps a lot of masculine habits. She was been infected with a virus that has no immediate cure."

That's rather odd.

The quote you just cited from the research paper doesn't appear to actually be in the research paper?

http://digitalcommons.unl.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1717&context=greatplainsresearch


Rather its from this blog talking about the research paper...

http://www.rooshv.com/eastern-european-women-become-more-masculine-in-america

...the author of which seems to be misinterpreting the paper to say (in a rather long winded manner) 'get back n the kitchen'.

Your source is a guy moaning about not being able to get laid if a girl has lived outside of Poland.


Please in future provide links to your sources, as this demonstrates the issue with not doing so.

 

[Lucas]

I believe it won't change from one day to the next. Hell, I won't believe it won't have changed in 10 years. And that's assuming everyone agrees to stop with sexism, which is an impossible scenario. My brother has his stance on the subject of toys: when he gets a kid, he said he will go to a store and ask him/her: "choose whatever you want". But as I said... that's not enough, because if the media and everything you see on the outside world tells you something that has been passed on from generations, it's hard to actually make a choice.


EDIT: FoolKiller nailed it with his post. It's in our genetics, and that's not going to change from one year to the next, even if the society tries his best.

 

[niky]

...traditional behaviours...

Anyone who says women can't be assertive and bossy without being "infected" with radical feminism hasn't been married.

Or if they have, they haven't been married long.

 

[Ramanujan]

I didn't give up.

And i wasn't aware this was a argument that could be won. As we all have different opinions clearly.

But what most people here like to agree on, is that we don't want girls/boys to be forced in a certain behavior.
And that is what i am seeing a lot lately. Guys are forced to be to feminine and girls are being forced to act male.

- Women have to be caring , good looking, confident, successful in their work.
- Man have to be strong, fashionable, successful in their work, able to take care of the children.
Not much difference anymore, is there?

Many values are being put onto us by marketing. Other come as government rules.

An example of the later is this:
In the company were i work we need to have a certain percentage of female managers.
The problem is that not many woman want to have that function. So the pool of which to choose from is very small compared to the guys. Because of this they are much less qualified as their male counterparts. Who have to work harder and be better qualified to get the same function. So we went from a point were the best suitable person gets the job to a manipulated "sex equality" system.

If i look at the young guys walking around now they are dressed up as the (mostly gay) magazine models. And they walk around as insecure as most girls of that age who are afraid they will be judged based on their looks.

So i would like to see all people should be given equal chances, and getting jobs based on qualities not gender.

But please don't force guy stuff on girls and girl stuff on boys.
And we should try to teach children to ignore marketing. As most of these stupid values used to judge people come from the marketing campaigns of companies just trying to sell more.

As an example i can tell that women started smoking because of marketing. The tobacco industry just realized they could sell their stuff to both man and woman. That had nothing to do with feminism, it was pure marketing.

Bottom line is that every person should choose their own path in life. And not be judged on their gender, but pure on capabilities/interest. And don't ignore the qualities both genders have. Ignoring ones strong points is silly.


Maybe my viewpoint is different than some others here as i life in a country with a very open attitude to gay/lesbians.
And we are much more open minded in this region than most other countries.

 

[Lucas]

But please don't force guy stuff on girls and girl stuff on boys.

Thing is, we shouldn't force anything on anyone.

 

[TenEightyOne]

In the company were i work we need to have a certain percentage of female managers.
The problem is that not many woman want to have that function.

Are you saying that you just have unnaturally unambitious women where you work or that women in general don't want that function?

If the second then a) citation required and b) BS.

 

[Pseudopod]

Boys shouldn't be forced into girl stuff, girls shouldn't be forced into girl stuff. Boys shouldn't be forced into boy stuff, girls shouldn't be forced into boy stuff.

Many things we think of as typical guy jobs aren't actually historically guy jobs. I'll mention software engineering as one example. That used to be dominated by women in the beginning. The clothes we wear aren't based on anything buy recent human constructs about what should be worn and by who. A 1700s (or something) male wearing pink tights wouldn't be an unusual sight. A woman wearing pink in the late 1800s would be thought of as a total dyke.

Yet, girls still prefer pink clothes when they are young nowadays... strange, perhaps society strongly influences what kids gravitate to? Perhaps this could be true for more things than just fashion, or maybe I'm just talking crazy!

 

[TenEightyOne]

A woman wearing pink in the late 1800s would be thought of as a total dyke.

Grr, etchings or it didn't happen!

 

[Lucas]

Boys shouldn't be forced into girl stuff, girls shouldn't be forced into girl stuff. Boys shouldn't be forced into boy stuff, girls shouldn't be forced into boy stuff.

More over, "boy stuff" and "girl stuff" implies there's a reason for kids to play with those kind of toys, depending on their gender.

 

[Pseudopod]

Grr, etchings or it didn't happen!

Pink was considered a very strong and powerful color, therefore it was obviously a masculine color.

The change to the typical blue for boys, pink for girls color scheme happened sometime around one of the two world wars. I forgot exactly when.

More over, "boy stuff" and "girl stuff" implies there's a reason for kids to play with those kind of toys, depending on their gender.

we should clearly just rename them to "technical toys" and "social toys".

 

[Katiegan]

A woman wearing pink in the late 1800s would be thought of as a total dyke.

I call BS. Everyone knows people only wore black and white back then!

 

[TenEightyOne]

I call BS. Everyone knows people only wore black and white back then!

Damn, good spot.

 

[Scaff]

An example of the later is this:

In the company were i work we need to have a certain percentage of female managers.

And I personally would not argue that this is a good idea, you don't help yourself with some of the comments you then go onto make.

The problem is that not many woman want to have that function. So the pool of which to choose from is very small compared to the guys. Because of this they are much less qualified as their male counterparts. Who have to work harder and be better qualified to get the same function. So we went from a point were the best suitable person gets the job to a manipulated "sex equality" system.

Can you provide something to back up a claim that women don't want to be managers? That they would be less qualified to do so?

You see many would argue that the reason why you end up with affirmative action is that people put forward beliefs like this.

If i look at the young guys walking around now they are dressed up as the (mostly gay) magazine models. And they walk around as insecure as most girls of that age who are afraid they will be judged based on their looks.

Sorry but why exactly was the 'gay' identification needed on that?

So i would like to see all people should be given equal chances, and getting jobs based on qualities not gender.

So would I, but its not helped if people insist on forcing stereotypes on other such as women can't/don't want to be managers or most models are gay

 

[FoolKiller]

The point we're trying to make here is that parents are forcing their children to follow the gender stereotypes

Forcing is a strong word. That would indicate refusing to allow certain shows or toys to ever be seen or watched. Few parents will take a toy away or block the TV in this way. There is encouraging and influencing but forcing is not happening.

Are you saying that you just have unnaturally unambitious women where you work or that women in general don't want that function?

I have found that women aren't unambitious but many focus on things outside of work. And this isn't just family stuff. I had one woman turn down a promotion because it wouldn't give her time to pursue her club tennis tournaments. Men were more willing to give up personal/family time for work. I do it. My wife sees no problem with attending a school function at 2:00 on a Thursday. I find it to be a hassle and a bit inconsiderate of the school.

It isn't a hard gender rule but when offering promotions or overtime opportunities more men were willing to do it in a department that had twice the number of women. It could be a local mindset and not a generalization about broads broad generalization, but I've seen this happen multiple jobs.

 

[Pseudopod]

I call BS. Everyone knows people only wore black and white back then!

Damn, I got found out

 

[DK]

That's rather odd.

The quote you just cited from the research paper doesn't appear to actually be in the research paper?

http://digitalcommons.unl.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1717&context=greatplainsresearch


Rather its from this blog talking about the research paper...

http://www.rooshv.com/eastern-european-women-become-more-masculine-in-america

...the author of which seems to be misinterpreting the paper to say (in a rather long winded manner) 'get back n the kitchen'.

Your source is a guy moaning about not being able to get laid if a girl has lived outside of Poland.


Please in future provide links to your sources, as this demonstrates the issue with not doing so.

I'm pretty sure moaning about not getting laid is the basis for 90% of "men's rights advocacy" and r/TheRedPill.

 

[MatskiMonk]

Women have babies, they have a maternal instinct that say dangerous stuff is bad for everybody. Cars kill people.

Ugh.

Me Man, must hunt kill and eat...

 

[FoolKiller]

We went to the Kentucky Science Center today and I found a very interesting exhibit.

It's DNA.

 

[FoRiZon]

We went to the Kentucky Science Center today and I found a very interesting exhibit.

View attachment 245387

It's DNA.

Funny how the title is gender while the description is all about twins. Feels like a news headlines there.