Female Car Enthusiasts

[FoolKiller]

Funny how the title is gender while the description is all about twins. Feels like a news headlines there.

The full exhibit was about how genders come about. This was a small sign to the side highlighting local research.

 

[Alutec]

This thread... It's gold XD

 

[Ramanujan]

Can you provide something to back up a claim that women don't want to be managers? That they would be less qualified to do so?

You see many would argue that the reason why you end up with affirmative action is that people put forward beliefs like this.

Some background info, most women in the company i work are working based on part-time contracts(By their own choice). Mostly 50-70%. The promotion would mean they would have to go to >80%. Plus they would have to work later shifts. They mostly don't want this and cherish their free time. (This goes for women with and without children in my line of work.)

In the last promotional round there were 5 spots left in the management team. And quite a view men(>30) and 6 women tried to get the positions. The 5 slots were filled with 5 women, because of the quotum. We all knew these persons male and female. And the 5 choosen were not the strongest ones among all participants.

Sorry but why exactly was the 'gay' identification needed on that?

So would I, but its not helped if people insist on forcing stereotypes on other such as women can't/don't want to be managers or most models are gay

I didn't say most women can't be managers. But if you put every one that wants a position into that position despite having better males around. You won't get the best management team. This goes for all jobs in wich females are present in a much smaller number than males. If you have to pick the management out of both sexes for 50% the females won't be the strongest options. Pure based on the size of the pool you get them out. I never hear about the quotum in female orientated jobs, were males get promoted despite being present in much smaller numbers, or less qualified.

I used the gay identification as a lot of male models are gay, as are male ballet dancers. So you got a certain type of 'character' in the newest clothes. I don't say they all are, but the percentage is above average i think. Not trying to offend anyone. I have nothing against gay people (i work with a lot of them on a daily basis).

I just would like to see we can agree that there are differences between man and woman and that we can appreciate the strong points of both. As i feel that because of marketing and these 'positive'discrimination rules we are putting a lot of stress on the young ones to be more of a homogeneos species. Were the distinction between the sexes are being leveled.

 

[Ramanujan]

@FrzGT givin up already?

The female liberation in the smoking department came out of Edward Bernays ideas. All put under the feminism movement, but clearly only a marketing exercise.

 

[FoRiZon]

@FrzGT givin up already?

The female liberation in the smoking department came out of Edward Bernays ideas. All put under the feminism movement, but clearly only a marketing exercise.

Nah. But i already give my ideas.

No forcing anything on people, whever to boy or girl into boy or girl things. Let them be.

 

[niky]

And that is what i am seeing a lot lately. Guys are forced to be to feminine and girls are being forced to act male.

- Women have to be caring , good looking, confident, successful in their work.
- Man have to be strong, fashionable, successful in their work, able to take care of the children.
Not much difference anymore, is there?

You start off making sense, then you get to that part and it all falls a part.

Since when has being confident been bad trait for women?

And since when has being caring been a bad trait for men?

-

What you're failing to consider is that what you think is "natural" female behaviour is simply that which is foisted upon them by society.

If i look at the young guys walking around now they are dressed up as the (mostly gay) magazine models. And they walk around as insecure as most girls of that age who are afraid they will be judged based on their looks.

You're assuming men have never cared about their looks.

(A sizable percentage of) men have always been as vain, if not moreso than women. It's only in the reactionary 80's and 90's (I guess 60's hippie culture counts? Though that got assimilated into hippies kitsch in mainstream culture), thanks to punk and grunge where anti-fashion became more fashionable. But such things are cyclical, thus it's not surprising to see an emphasis on men's looks coming back to the fore.

Being fashionable or well-groomed is a mark of success in many societies, both modern and ancient. The only difference, across cultures, is how you define fashionable. The anti-fashion look of torn jeans and white shirt is the epitome of anti-fashion turned into fashion. When you can buy pre-faded, pre-stressed and pre-torn jeans off the rack, you know the jig is up.

---

And those insecure boys? They're right. Everyone is judged based on their looks, and looking as good as possible (without looking like you're really trying) is a good way to achieve advancement in your career and social life.

---

As for females and PC/Quota hiring: sadly... fact of life. But the obverse has been true in the past. As for women who want to stay contractual... there are reasons. Some jobs just aren't compatible with raising a family (for women who want to do so), especially if maternity leave packages aren't favorable in your country/company.

In the past, it was more common for women to sacrifice their jobs for their children. Nowadays, however, with men sharing the parental work and sometimes acting as the homemaker, women can and do fill high-level job positions quite easily. I know one who got promoted from marketing at Ford to VP, to regional all the way up to Dearborn Michigan within just a few short years.

As for qualifications... I don't know what it's like in your company... but out here, the only way to make it big (as a woman) is to actually be better than anyone else. And in some fields, women hold a lot of the big jobs.

 

[Ramanujan]

Wel, actually being seen insecure is a very femine show. High heels, standing unbalanced, weak wrists they are all female signs of being available and looking for support. Once males go into the unsecure area all gets unbalanced.
Some female qualities are brought onto by evolution, and not by society. Women are more about children and are naturaly more attached to them. That is why women wake up from craying babys and guys sleep trough it.
That is why women can sleep for 4 hours and wake up, were guys need more hours. Is it so difficult to see girls and boys are different the moment they start their life? Purely based on their gender?

Please don't get me started on the anti-fashion but still fashionable look..... Who is kidding who?

I like the bold though, are you too?

 

[Ramanujan]

Nah. But i already give my ideas.

No forcing anything on people, whever to boy or girl into boy or girl things. Let them be.

Here have a wiki page.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torches_of_Freedom

 

[niky]

Wel, actually being seen insecure is a very femine show. High heels, standing unbalanced, weak wrists they are all female signs of being available and looking for support. Once males go into the unsecure area all gets unbalanced.
Some female qualities are brought onto by evolution, and not by society. Women are more about children and are naturaly more attached to them. That is why women wake up from craying babys and guys sleep trough it.
That is why women can sleep for 4 hours and wake up, were guys need more hours. Is it so difficult to see girls and boys are different the moment they start their life? Purely based on their gender?

Please don't get me started on the anti-fashion but still fashionable look..... Who is kidding who?

I like the bold though, are you too?

Show me, firstly, how high heels and "limp wristed" are universal across all cultures, and are evolutionary, rather than specific cultural stereotypes.

-

No one is denying that there are physiological and psychological differences between the sexes. I have a dozen units in anatomy and neuroanatomy and my minor was in health education, with a semester or two on sex education, as well.

I simply find it funny that you're confusing/confounding cultural norms for universal norms.

In the absence of stereotypes engendered by society, the truth eventually comes out:

 

[mirial]

Anyone who says women can't be assertive and bossy without being "infected" with radical feminism hasn't been married.

Or if they have, they haven't been married long.

I'd imagine in a dominant man/submissive woman relationship a lot less though!

That's rather odd. The quote you just cited from the research paper doesn't appear to actually be in the research paper?

I suppose I should have said related to the paper.

What's interesting is the effect it's had on the blogger was the same effect it had on me in the workplace. There were a couple of female engineers learning the ropes with two different attitudes; one very bright, capable, but still feminine and at ease, whilst the other not as capable and full of anger. Myself and others felt compelled to help and treat both the same particularly because they're in a male environment and it's interesting how the very reactionary attitude of the latter where you couldn't say boo without there being some 'sexism' in it just makes you say to yourself "you're on your own love, get on with it". Not to mention the ingratitude too.

From observation, those that maintained the feminine traits seemed to fit in very well because they behaved the way men like women to behave, whilst at the same time they weren't compromised from being able to get promotion either.[/QUOTE]

 

[jimipitbull]

[/COLOR][/B]

You can't use color to end [GENDER] tags

 

[Scaff]

Some background info, most women in the company i work are working based on part-time contracts(By their own choice). Mostly 50-70%. The promotion would mean they would have to go to >80%. Plus they would have to work later shifts. They mostly don't want this and cherish their free time. (This goes for women with and without children in my line of work.)

And you know all of this about these women specifically because?

Or are these just assumptions you have made based on (at best) anecdotal evidence that you have then generalized to all working women?

In the last promotional round there were 5 spots left in the management team. And quite a view men(>30) and 6 women tried to get the positions. The 5 slots were filled with 5 women, because of the quotum. We all knew these persons male and female. And the 5 choosen were not the strongest ones among all participants.

So you were part of the interview process in this?

I didn't say most women can't be managers.

Actually by generalizing in the manner you did that is exactly what you infered.

But if you put every one that wants a position into that position despite having better males around. You won't get the best management team. This goes for all jobs in wich females are present in a much smaller number than males. If you have to pick the management out of both sexes for 50% the females won't be the strongest options. Pure based on the size of the pool you get them out. I never hear about the quotum in female orientated jobs, were males get promoted despite being present in much smaller numbers, or less qualified.

I've already said that I don't agree with affermative action, so I'm not sure quite why you are still going on about it.

I used the gay identification as a lot of male models are gay, as are male ballet dancers. So you got a certain type of 'character' in the newest clothes. I don't say they all are, but the percentage is above average i think. Not trying to offend anyone. I have nothing against gay people (i work with a lot of them on a daily basis).

Define gay character?

Oh and while you are at it then explain to me why a model or a dancer being gay matters to this at all?

Models don't design clothes, ballet dancers don't write ballets; as such their sexuality makes no difference to this at all.

I just would like to see we can agree that there are differences between man and woman and that we can appreciate the strong points of both. As i feel that because of marketing and these 'positive'discrimination rules we are putting a lot of stress on the young ones to be more of a homogeneos species. Were the distinction between the sexes are being leveled.

The problem that's not what you are doing at all, what you are calling for is not a level playing field at all, its a maintenance of the status-quo, a status-quo that is still discriminates against women in terms of both potential and earnings.

I suppose I should have said related to the paper.

No in future you will make sure that you are both accurate in your citations and you provide sources, the AUP is quite clear regarding this manner.

I have to say it still strikes me as rather odd that you managed to attribute a quote to a source that clearly doesn't contain it and quite clear comes from a totally different source. It took me all of 30 seconds on Google to unearth that.

As such your reason for this occurring was either an attempt to attribute greater weight to this claim that it warranted or you were simply being incredibly lazy and/or inept. Either way its not a good way to post here at GT Planet.

What's interesting is the effect it's had on the blogger was the same effect it had on me in the workplace.

What, that western living is toxic to women because it makes it harder for you to get them to sleep with you?

There were a couple of female engineers learning the ropes with two different attitudes; one very bright, capable, but still feminine and at ease, whilst the other not as capable and full of anger. Myself and others felt compelled to help and treat both the same particularly because they're in a male environment and it's interesting how the very reactionary attitude of the latter where you couldn't say boo without there being some 'sexism' in it just makes you say to yourself "you're on your own love, get on with it". Not to mention the ingratitude too.

From observation, those that maintained the feminine traits seemed to fit in very well because they behaved the way men like women to behave, whilst at the same time they weren't compromised from being able to get promotion either.

Ah I see now.

So if a women doesn't fit into your pre-existing, narrowly defined idea of what a women should be then if she asks to be treated differently then its her fault.

To be honest your own comment of "you're on your own love, get on with it" pretty much sums it up, and I thought my own industry (automotive) still had its share of '70s dinosaurs.

 

[niky]

You can't use color to end [GENDER] tags

One can dream, right?

 

[mirial]

What, that western living is toxic to women because it makes it harder for you to get them to sleep with you? .

As you ask, it makes it harder for a lot of them to sleep with me actually.

The effect I was talking about is more daily social interaction either in the workplace or outside it, in that if they don't want to be receptive to chivalry because they either haven't been used to it, or don't want it, then I won't bother being chivalrous to those that don't appreciate it. It does remain to be seen how much this 'western living' has an effect on all personality types though. I maintain personality can magnify/de-magnify how someone is conditioned, which would mean there are many that will remain less affected by being conditioned to be less feminine.

Ah I see now. So if a women doesn't fit into your pre-existing, narrowly defined idea of what a women should be then if she asks to be treated differently then its her fault.

Manners, generosity and being treated with respect doesn't cost anything on behalf of who is giving it, so I'd say it's down to the individual, upbringing and social conditioning for failing to recognise good from bad. If Animals can recognise being treated well, then I would have thought humans should be capable of this too......

To be honest your own comment of "you're on your own love, get on with it" pretty much sums it up, and I thought my own industry (automotive) still had its share of '70s dinosaurs.

Yes, after numerous attempts of a concerted effort by me of giving the girl the benefit of the doubt.

 

[Scaff]

As you ask, it makes it harder for a lot of them to sleep with me actually.

Oh boy you do seem insistent on bringing a stereotype home.

However nice attempt at a deflection concerning your link to one of the most ridiculous blogs I've seen in quite a while, that you self-identify with even a part of what the author has to say speaks volumes on its own.

The effect I was talking about is more daily social interaction either in the workplace or outside it, in that if they don't want to be receptive to chivalry because they either haven't been used to it, or don't want it, then I won't bother being chivalrous to those that don't appreciate it. It does remain to be seen how much this 'western living' has an effect on all personality types though. I maintain personality can magnify/de-magnify how someone is conditioned, which would mean there are many that will remain less affected by being conditioned to be less feminine.

You do know that chivalry has always been a credo/ethic/behavior that expects no reward?

That said, what reward are you expecting? How should they be receptive to you?

Manners, generosity and being treated with respect doesn't cost anything on behalf of who is giving it, so I'd say it's down to the individual, upbringing and social conditioning for failing to recognise good from bad. If Animals can recognise being treated well, then I would have thought humans should be capable of this too......

To be honest you are yet to demonstrate anything that would lead me to believe you used manner, generosity or respect in this matter.

Yes, after numerous attempts of a concerted effort by me of giving the girl the benefit of the doubt.

So you don't see any potential issue with the words you used at all?

 

[Nessy]

Women in general, i would imagine don't like being called "love" by their work colleagues.

 

[Scaff]

Women in general, i would imagine don't like being called "love" by their work colleagues.

Bingo.

It's not good manners, generous or respectful, and for a member who is trumpeting being Chivalrous it falls well short of the mark.

 

[TenEightyOne]

That said, what reward are you expecting? How should they be receptive to you?

Well, when I take laaadies out to dinner I always take them to 1962. That way we all know exactly what's what.

@Ramanujan; do you think women in general agree with your views?

 

[FoolKiller]

^Where did I say that? It isn't the post it links me to.

 

[Scaff]

^Where did I say that? It isn't the post it links me to.

You didn't. I did. Very odd.

 

[Team THRT Drift]

@Katiegan

"Ooh, na-na
Look what you done started..."

If you wonder why guys will immediately hit on you if you like cars... it's simple. You've got the anatomy that men love, but now you've also got the same interest. Talking to you will be easier now. There's no pressure, there's no tension, it's just cars. You already have a common interest.

While as for the guys who push women away, they're just asshats. They still have that "Duuude, a gurl beat you!?!?!" mentality.

 

[TenEightyOne]

You didn't. I did. Very odd.

My original mistake I'm sure... but when I edit the post now I can't see the quote at all, even in BB mode.

EDIT: Working now. Apologies

 

[mirial]

Oh boy you do seem insistent on bringing a stereotype home.

But, most importantly of all, I have never, ever duped a woman either, something that so many men cannot claim these days. It does harm to a woman's emotional well-being as well as having a knock-on effect to the next potential suitors. I think that more than makes amends for some of the misogynistic feelings I have. I can also very confidently say I've been blown out a lot too....which have never been ego trips either.

However nice attempt at a deflection concerning your link to one of the most ridiculous blogs I've seen in quite a while, that you self-identify with even a part of what the author has to say speaks volumes on its own.

I was most concerned with his comment: "Whenever I meet an EE girl who acts masculine, I ask her if she has lived in America or Britain. Most of the time, the answer is yes. Even once back in her homeland, she keeps a lot of masculine habits. She was been infected with a virus that has no immediate cure."

.....and not the explicit vocabulary he uses. I said that if this true, then this is rather tragic for women that have unlearned their homeland traditions.

The paper which he has linked goes into the detail however.

You do know that chivalry has always been a credo/ethic/behavior that expects no reward?
That said, what reward are you expecting? How should they be receptive to you?

It's not the reward; it just makes life so much easier and it inspires me to do kind things I wouldn't have done otherwise if received with negative body language, responses or mannerisms.

To be honest you are yet to demonstrate anything that would lead me to believe you used manner, generosity or respect in this matter.

Socially, I've got a very good track record with lots of credible referees from all sources including dozens of women actually.

So you don't see any potential issue with the words you used at all?

I'm assuming the word "love" that was used previously, which I've hardly ever used in discussions and never ever used to address a woman verbally.

 

[Scaff]

But, most importantly of all, I have never, ever duped a woman either, something that so many men cannot claim these days. It does harm to a woman's emotional well-being as well as having a knock-on effect to the next potential suitors. I think that more than makes amends for some of the misogynistic feelings I have. I can also very confidently say I've been blown out a lot too....which have never been ego trips either.

Kudos for not duping them, shame about the misogyny.

Image how it may work if you got it right on both those fronts, and how much more the damage would be, because as the father of three girls I can assure you that sexist assholes most certainly don't help emotional well being either.

I was most concerned with his comment: "Whenever I meet an EE girl who acts masculine, I ask her if she has lived in America or Britain. Most of the time, the answer is yes. Even once back in her homeland, she keeps a lot of masculine habits. She was been infected with a virus that has no immediate cure."

.....and not the explicit vocabulary he uses. I said that if this true, then this is rather tragic for women that have unlearned their homeland traditions.

The paper which he has linked goes into the detail however.

Which assumes that the cultural norm for women in Eastern European countries is an equal and unbiased place traditionally.

The problem is that its not, as such its far from tragic to loose that (well that is unless you consider women not being considered lower than men to be tragic).

It's not the reward; it just makes life so much easier and it inspires me to do kind things I wouldn't have done otherwise if received with negative body language, responses or mannerisms.

That would still be you doing them with the expectation of a reward; your post makes it quite clear that without a reward or some form of positive re-enforcement you feel you have been wronged or slighted in some way.

Socially, I've got a very good track record with lots of credible referees from all sources including dozens of women actually.

Of which we have no idea. We can only base our impressions on how you are here and the way you comment on women (and the sources you use to back that up), we have nothing more.

I've shown your posts and links to the two of my girls who still live at home, to say the feedback they gave was negative would be a rather large understatement.

I'm assuming the word "love" that was used previously, which I've hardly ever used in discussions and never ever used to address a woman verbally.

So you use it to address women when discussing them with what you see to be a mainly male peer group, but would never use it when addressing them.

Now not only does that raise alarm bells but it also makes you comment that "I have never, ever duped a woman either" totally untrue. If you use language to discuss women in private that you would never use to them in person then you are masking who you are from them, its a dupe. You may not realise it yourself but quite frankly you have some characteristic and attitudes that are more than a little concerning.

 

[The Bman]

Can I ask why this debate is specific to female car enthusiasts as opposed to the concept of tomboyism as a whole?

 

[Scaff]

Can I ask why this debate is specific to female car enthusiasts as opposed to the concept of tomboyism as a whole?

Does a female car enthusiast have to be a tomboy?

 

[The Bman]

Does a female car enthusiast have to be a tomboy?

The way that the OP was presented was in a way that when females like things mostly attributed to males, it is considered to be "unfitting" for their gender.

 

[Scaff]

The way that the OP was presented was in a way that when females like things mostly attributed to males, it is considered to be "unfitting" for their gender.

Personally I don't consider anything particularly 'unfitting' for any gender, but that would depend on what one considered unfitting in the first place.

 

[niky]

Tomboy-ism would be displaying male attributes. Although I believe this would be a ridiculous way to define gender, as male attributes and mannerisms are partly culture-based rather than gender-based. And, innocuous as it is (I use it, too, hard not to.), it subtly points to a culture frowning upon women behaving in "inappropriate" ways.

Better than the alternative for boys. We simply call anything non-gender appropriate (in the Western context) for boys gay. Which is sad, really.

-

I've met female car enthusiasts who were "tomboy-ish", but a whole lot of them are very, very girly.

-

And it's with these women you see the most resistance. Apparently, to some people, you're not allowed to have nail polish and a torque wrench in the same toolkit.

-

Ah... Chivalry. I open doors for men, too. It's simply the polite thing to do.

 

[Cale]

hey bb u got snapchat lolz