FFB 1.12 Update

[skazz]

Also I can't understand what makes the T300RS so damn expensive. It doesn't have a shifter and the pedals are crap (and there's no clutch). The motor and internals are better, but surely it's not worth $300 above the G25. Makes me appreciate what a good deal my G25 was really.

I'm not sure how expensive the brushless motor is on the T300, but to give you an idea: The big chunky T500 motor retails at around $90 just by itself. Compare that to the inkjet motors in a G27 which retail for well under $10.

 

[LeGeNd-1]

I'm not sure how expensive the brushless motor is on the T300, but to give you an idea: The big chunky T500 motor retails at around $90 just by itself. Compare that to the inkjet motors in a G27 which retail for well under $10.

Aren't they still made of the same things though? Just a bit bigger. It's still just magnet and wires. It's not like some exotic material like carbon fibre or titanium right?

I recently opened my G25 and I'm pretty surprised how simple the insides actually are compared to its cost (I realize niche products will always be expensive, but still). A motherboard, 2 motors and a couple of plastic gears. The illusion of driving that these things produce are very convincing though

 

[MidNightGT]

Aren't they still made of the same things though? Just a bit bigger. It's still just magnet and wires. It's not like some exotic material like carbon fibre or titanium right?

I recently opened my G25 and I'm pretty surprised how simple the insides actually are compared to its cost (I realize niche products will always be expensive, but still). A motherboard, 2 motors and a couple of plastic gears. The illusion of driving that these things produce are very convincing though

Much difference between motors in build quality, the wind style, rotor, material, bearings etc all make a big difference between a cheap motor and a quality one

 

[LeGeNd-1]

Much difference between motors in build quality, the wind style, rotor, material, bearings etc all make a big difference between a cheap motor and a quality one

Fair enough. I just don't expect the difference to be that much in terms of cost. Especially since the motors themselves are not new technology.

 

[MidNightGT]

Fair enough. I just don't expect the difference to be that much in terms of cost. Especially since the motors themselves are not new technology.

I haven't looked at the motors but I would think much of it is to do with the bearings. ABEC 7 I would hope, they do not come cheap for quality made ABEC-7. Plus I would hope a high level of efficiency and good heat dissipating design.

What we need is a Logitech Next Gen Solution bridging the gap

 

[Saidur_Ali]

G27 is capable of very strong forces and detailed feedback in pCARS compared to how GT6 was before 1.12 but now the gap regarding strength is relatively large. The hardware is good enough to deliver, it is up to PD to make use of it. Will be interesting to see how the T300 wheel is in comparison when I do receive it though, I have done a few laps with T500RS before and that wheel is quite strong IIRC.

That's funny- I bet he was pissed

Indeed, interestingly watching that video with Jonny Smith, IIRC I probably did a faster time with the Megane trophy car than he managed with a F1 car and the 911 RSR so probably they don't get many people who set reasonable times in a few laps (Less than 10 minute session) so that could be reason for disbelief.

 

[skazz]

G27 is capable of very strong forces and detailed feedback in pCARS compared to how GT6 was before 1.12 but now the gap regarding strength is relatively large. The hardware is good enough to deliver, it is up to PD to make use of it. Will be interesting to see how the T300 wheel is in comparison when I do receive it though, I have done a few laps with T500RS before and that wheel is quite strong IIRC.

I've been watching the wheelcheck/ffbclip thread on the AC forums recently, and did lots of wheelcheck testing on my own T300 and T500 yesterday. So if you want to know how powerful the (speed limited) motors are, I can give you an idea in terms of rotational capabilities.

Wheelcheck attempts to see how far a wheel rotates over 300ms from stationary with different levels of force %. This gives a maximum number of degrees rotated in 300ms, which can easily be converted over to rpm:

• The T500 will reach a peak spin speed of around 133 rpm (GTE rim) = 800 degrees of rotation in 1 second
• The T300 can hit around 100 rpm (PS rim) = 600 degrees of rotation in 1 second
• The G25 can hit around 70 rpm = 420 degrees of rotation in 1 second
• The DFGT can hit around 60 rpm = 360 degrees of rotation in 1 second

 

[Saidur_Ali]

I've been watching the wheelcheck/ffbclip thread on the AC forums recently, and did lots of wheelcheck testing on my own T300 and T500 yesterday. So if you want to know how powerful the (speed limited) motors are, I can give you an idea in terms of rotational capabilities.

Wheelcheck attempts to see how far a wheel rotates over 300ms from stationary with different levels of force %. This gives a maximum number of degrees rotated in 300ms, which can easily be converted over to rpm:

• The T500 will reach a peak spin speed of around 133 rpm (GTE rim) = 800 degrees of rotation in 1 second
• The T300 can hit around 100 rpm (PS rim) = 600 degrees of rotation in 1 second
• The G25 can hit around 70 rpm = 420 degrees of rotation in 1 second
• The DFGT can hit around 60 rpm = 360 degrees of rotation in 1 second

I guess other thing is how easy it is to turn the wheel and I imagine the T300 is probably the quickest out of them wheels?

 

[Glowplug007]

@@@@@Also I can't understand what makes the T300RS so damn expensive. It doesn't have a shifter and the pedals are crap (and there's no clutch). The motor and internals are better, but surely it's not worth $300 above the G25. Makes me appreciate what a good deal my G25 was really.@@@@@

^^^^^^^ This x1000. Brushless electric motors aren't some magical thing anymore- china is pumping them out by the millions- and the pedals look worse then what comes with a 100$ DFGT. And the shifter is 180$?!!!!!! And u need a pedal set with a clutch to enjoy it!!! Now I imagine that thrustmaster is a much smaller company then logitech which makes sense that it would be somewhat more expensive but unlike the PC folks- I don't think console racers are willing to throw that kinda cash to play GT7.
As far as I have have tested GT provides the best "simulation" on a console- every time I buy another racing game I just get disappointed - so for me it's stupid to invest that much to play 1 game/series

 

[Saidur_Ali]

@@@@@Also I can't understand what makes the T300RS so damn expensive. It doesn't have a shifter and the pedals are crap (and there's no clutch). The motor and internals are better, but surely it's not worth $300 above the G25. Makes me appreciate what a good deal my G25 was really.@@@@@

^^^^^^^ This x1000. Brushless electric motors aren't some magical thing anymore- china is pumping them out by the millions- and the pedals look worse then what comes with a 100$ DFGT. And the shifter is 180$?!!!!!! And u need a pedal set with a clutch to enjoy it!!! Now I imagine that thrustmaster is a much smaller company then logitech which makes sense that it would be somewhat more expensive but unlike the PC folks- I don't think console racers are willing to throw that kinda cash to play GT7.
As far as I have have tested GT provides the best "simulation" on a console- every time I buy another racing game I just get disappointed - so for me it's stupid to invest that much to play 1 game/series

It seems like a bargain if you compare the T300 to the Fanatec CSW V2 base for example and pedals from what I've read are comparable to the G27 but no clutch pedal.

 

[skazz]

The T300 feels slightly faster to turn than a G25. The fact that it's motors can spin it 30% faster means it gets out of the way better than a G25. For instance when drifting in AC you have to help the G25 any time you want to initiate a drift and really want to spin the wheel. The T300 needs far less help but you can chuck it just as easily, so the end result is much nicer (note: This is only PC sim testing, I'm not sure how GT6 feels with it since I've not yet tried my T300 on GT6).

T300 pedals are not up to G25 level but are better than the DFGT ones. The accelerator is fine, quite a nice throw. The brake is not good: Far too light and very difficult to judge modulation accurately. Yes, it's better than the DFGT brake (which is so floppy you get 5% brake showing no matter how lightly you rest your foot on it!), but just like a DFGT threshold braking (with ABS=0) is extremely difficult with the T300 pedals.

 

[OdeFinn]

My wish for ps4: support for Leo Bodnar adapter for G27.

 

[avens]

@@@@@Also I can't understand what makes the T300RS so damn expensive. It doesn't have a shifter and the pedals are crap (and there's no clutch). The motor and internals are better, but surely it's not worth $300 above the G25. Makes me appreciate what a good deal my G25 was really.@@@@@

^^^^^^^ This x1000. Brushless electric motors aren't some magical thing anymore- china is pumping them out by the millions- and the pedals look worse then what comes with a 100$ DFGT. And the shifter is 180$?!!!!!! And u need a pedal set with a clutch to enjoy it!!! Now I imagine that thrustmaster is a much smaller company then logitech which makes sense that it would be somewhat more expensive but unlike the PC folks- I don't think console racers are willing to throw that kinda cash to play GT7.
As far as I have have tested GT provides the best "simulation" on a console- every time I buy another racing game I just get disappointed - so for me it's stupid to invest that much to play 1 game/series

In the simracing hardware world the sky is the limit, both in terms of price and of quality.

Think of it like flight simulators, arcade stick, headphones or whatever else really: some are toys for which what matters is just serving the purpose, like the G25/27, others are advanced enthusiast users hardware, like the T300, and others are tailor made using real parts (Derek Speare's and many others). After all that comes the high roller tier, of course.

In other words, what you are saying is: "But dude, my 2002 Corolla is a car just like your Ferrari 458. Look, it has pedals and a wheel", or "Why would you buy a $400 headphone if my $5 earphone does the same thing", or "lol you spent 1m in your house and for only $50k I have a roof too".

So, the T300 is night and day when compared to a G25, even though they somewhat serve the same purpose. Everyone that has tested it and that knows what they are talking about have had nothing but praise about it. It indeed is $200 nicer.

 

[Gojira]

I like my tried and true G27, prices on those fancy wheels need to come down

 

[diesel97]

the G27 will be dicontinued before the t300/500 will drop $200

 

[Gojira]

the G27 will be dicontinued before the t300/500 will drop $200

I already got a G27 and maybe something else will show up in the mean time. For the moment GT7 & Project Cars are not even released. I have no use for a PS4 or beginning that investment at the moment, I can let the prices on everything drop, even look for deals on used T500/T300 that start showing. I think I got a year or two at least before GT7, Project cars I can play on PC with my G27 while waiting for GT7.

 

[Glowplug007]

In the simracing hardware world the sky is the limit, both in terms of price and of quality.

Think of it like flight simulators, arcade stick, headphones or whatever else really: some are toys for which what matters is just serving the purpose, like the G25/27, others are advanced enthusiast users hardware, like the T300, and others are tailor made using real parts (Derek Speare's and many others). After all that comes the high roller tier, of course.

In other words, what you are saying is: "But dude, my 2002 Corolla is a car just like your Ferrari 458. Look, it has pedals and a wheel", or "Why would you buy a $400 headphone if my $5 earphone does the same thing", or "lol you spent 1m in your house and for only $50k I have a roof too".

So, the T300 is night and day when compared to a G25, even though they somewhat serve the same purpose. Everyone that has tested it and that knows what they are talking about have had nothing but praise about it. It indeed is $200 nicer.

Dude the g25/27 are not an entry level wheel- that's anything by madcatz and the DFGT----- you are mistaken and because you probably own one are justifying the cost to yourself- which is fine- however the the G25/27 is the benchmark standard for your average enthusiast sim racer- especially in the PC world which is known to be more "hardcore" then the console crowd. I'm not denying its a better wheel, for some 200$ better, but get real

 

[Omniscient]

Just want to throw in my two cents as a fanatec CSR owner.

The ffb is AMAZING now. Before, my biggest problem was that I could never feel my car slipping, whether understeer or oversteer, but now I can feel both cases very well and catching slides and finding peak front end grip is so much more fun and intuitive now. Also, the tracks feel nice and bumpy. Before I would see my car responding to the bumps on the track, but could not feel about 70% of the bumps including some rumble strips. Now though I feel almost all the bumps, and every rumble strip.

Turning resistance has gone down a bit in some cars, and a lot in others, but to me that isn't a big deal. Detail is much more important than resistance in FFB imo.

I've always been a bit dissapointed in PD's lack of support for Fanatec, but with this update, the FFB is almost PERFECT.

My settings are:
In game: Torque: 6, Sensitivity: 10
On wheel:
Sen: off
ffb: 100
Dri: 1
Spr: 0
Dpr: 0
Lin: 0

 

[Johnnypenso]

Dude the g25/27 are not an entry level wheel- that's anything by madcatz and the DFGT----- you are mistaken and because you probably own one are justifying the cost to yourself- which is fine- however the the G25/27 is the benchmark standard for your average enthusiast sim racer- especially in the PC world which is known to be more "hardcore" then the console crowd. I'm not denying its a better wheel, for some 200$ better, but get real

The G27 is probably better characterized as the low-end of the mid-range of racing wheel systems. Mid-range because it comes with decent pedals, clutch and separate shifter, but the low end of the scale because the motor is the weakest of the group, probably the loudest and has the roughest FFB etc. It sells well mainly because of it's price point and for the money it's exceptional value. In the better wheels belt drives kick the quality up significantly, brushless motors, more solid pedals etc.

 

[Glowplug007]

I could totally agree with that-^^

 

[avens]

Dude the g25/27 are not an entry level wheel- that's anything by madcatz and the DFGT----- you are mistaken and because you probably own one are justifying the cost to yourself- which is fine- however the the G25/27 is the benchmark standard for your average enthusiast sim racer- especially in the PC world which is known to be more "hardcore" then the console crowd. I'm not denying its a better wheel, for some 200$ better, but get real

First things first, I never said the G27 was the entry level. Those are your words, so everything you wrote is you discussing with yourself really, lol. Go read the post again.


Anyway and since you point it out, as far as FFB wheels go the DFGT is the very entry level, but the G25/G27 is only the "low end" "bang for the buck", that's only just above the entry level.

They do the job yes, actually you could become "simracing" world champion with one, but there's stuff way better than them. That better stuff includes:
a) Fanatec and Thrustmaster wheels, with buttkickers and accessories, which are the mid and high range depending on each of their products. That's the enthusiast level, and
b) The proper simulator level. No, your Playstation game with Logitech hardware is not one.


What I said is that in the grand scheme of things, when you consider materials used and performance, the G27 really is just a toy.

The whole idea of a wheel is to imitate how a car works, with the G27 only going so far. No, the wheel, pedals and shifter of a real car aren't like the G27 in any way whatsoever. Some wheels and setups are much better for that purpose, and even the said examples are vastly different than the real deal anyway.
In real life "FFB" comes from your butt and from all your senses, not from the wheel. Proper simulators work like that, not like commercial wheels and setups do.

So, it might be a expensive toy for some, but just like cars you cannot buy a proper sports car with spare cash and that you can't afford the real deal doesn't mean your "bang for the buck" is really something noteworthy. A Miata is not noteworthy in a world with C7 Corvettes and Paganis.

 

[Glowplug007]

First things first, I never said the G27 was the entry level. Those are your words, so everything you wrote is you discussing with yourself really, lol. Go read the post again.


Anyway and since you point it out, as far as FFB wheels go the DFGT is the very entry level, but the G25/G27 is only the "low end" "bang for the buck", that's only just above the entry level.

They do the job yes, actually you could become "simracing" world champion with one, but there's stuff way better than them. That better stuff includes:
a) Fanatec and Thrustmaster wheels, with buttkickers and accessories, which are the mid and high range depending on each of their products. That's the enthusiast level, and
b) The proper simulator level. No, your Playstation game with Logitech hardware is not one.


What I said is that in the grand scheme of things, when you consider materials used and performance, the G27 really is just a toy.

The whole idea of a wheel is to imitate how a car works, with the G27 only going so far. No, the wheel, pedals and shifter of a real car aren't like the G27 in any way whatsoever. Some wheels and setups are much better for that purpose, and even the said examples are vastly different than the real deal anyway.
In real life "FFB" comes from your butt and from all your senses, not from the wheel. Proper simulators work like that, not like commercial wheels and setups do.

So, it might be a expensive toy for some, but just like cars you cannot buy a proper sports car with spare cash and that you can't afford the real deal doesn't mean your "bang for the buck" is really something noteworthy. A Miata is not noteworthy in a world with C7 Corvettes and Paganis.

O please- you certainly implied the g27 is the bottom rung on the ladder or a 2002 Toyota corolla as you say. All wheel setups are toys- some are wrapped in leather(g27*wink wink) and some are not. Yes the sky is limit with sim gear but this convo has deviated from the intent of this thread. I officially disengage, give yourself a pat on the back and lay your head down tonight with that thrilling feeling of *winning the Internet today*

 

[BLACK86]

I've been watching the wheelcheck/ffbclip thread on the AC forums recently, and did lots of wheelcheck testing on my own T300 and T500 yesterday. So if you want to know how powerful the (speed limited) motors are, I can give you an idea in terms of rotational capabilities.

Wheelcheck attempts to see how far a wheel rotates over 300ms from stationary with different levels of force %. This gives a maximum number of degrees rotated in 300ms, which can easily be converted over to rpm:

• The T500 will reach a peak spin speed of around 133 rpm (GTE rim) = 800 degrees of rotation in 1 second
• The T300 can hit around 100 rpm (PS rim) = 600 degrees of rotation in 1 second
• The G25 can hit around 70 rpm = 420 degrees of rotation in 1 second
• The DFGT can hit around 60 rpm = 360 degrees of rotation in 1 second

Great info!!!

Do you know if anyone has results of the csw v2?

 

[Pdreams]

I am not quite sure if its post FFB 1.12 update, but it seems that the kerbs and chicanes do not vibrate as much.

With the DS3, its almost immediate vibration upon driving on the kerbs and chicanes.

However, on my T500RS, the frequency of vibration does not correspond to the kerbs, not to mentioned they feel very muted.

I have tried all settings for sensitivity but they don't make much of a difference. It just feels very much like a normal wheel. I remembered the old G25 Logitech having more feedback of the road.

Anyone here feeling the same. I have checked the T500RS using the TM interface on the PC. Everything is working as it is. Its just on GT6 that it feels very muted. Strange.

 

[tka_tha]

I am not quite sure if its post FFB 1.12 update, but it seems that the kerbs and chicanes do not vibrate as much.

With the DS3, its almost immediate vibration upon driving on the kerbs and chicanes.

However, on my T500RS, the frequency of vibration does not correspond to the kerbs, not to mentioned they feel very muted.

I have tried all settings for sensitivity but they don't make much of a difference. It just feels very much like a normal wheel. I remembered the old G25 Logitech having more feedback of the road.

Anyone here feeling the same. I have checked the T500RS using the TM interface on the PC. Everything is working as it is. Its just on GT6 that it feels very muted. Strange.

I agree with you. For me the best FFB for T500RS in GT6 was in update 1.12 pre hotfix, but it seems that PD is unable to give us that back for some reason.

 

[Gojira]

For me the best FFB for T500RS in GT6 was in update 1.12 pre hotfix, but it seems that PD is unable to give us that back for some reason.

Because others with the same wheel don't feel the same way. Its seems with every wheel some are happy and some are sad. If they go with what you want others will not like it. Its a no win situation so PD will do what PD thinks is best for their game, some will like it and some wont, oh well.. I happen to like the new FFB & Im happy PD has improved it in my book.

 

[poumpoum]

I agree with you. For me the best FFB for T500RS in GT6 was in update 1.12 pre hotfix, but it seems that PD is unable to give us that back for some reason.

I didn't have the chance to try it but right now the wheel is REALLY too heavy for me. For now, the only "solution" I've found is to use a wheel with a bigger diameter (35cm) on my T500...

 

[Gojira]

........................

Why please fix the power steering for T500RS users? It doesn't work for anybody....

 

[LeGeNd-1]

The new FFB is actually awesome. Last night when I drove the X2014 Standard at Suzuka Seasonal the car bottomed out along the backstraight. For a moment the wheel just got stuck in straight position and vibrated like crazy. Then when I started to brake for the chicane the sensation diminishes. I drove the Standard many times before 1.12 for grinding and never felt it. It was AWESOME!!!

Also, with road cars the wheel is actually pretty heavy now. I had to turn FFT down to 3 to drift last night. It takes some getting used to, but once you do it's definitely a step up, even for Logitech users 👍

 

[Le_Manuz]

yep track/car feedback is a good step forward for most of us
but the FFT is wrong for a lot of us depending of the wheel used
or it's too strong (mostly only on T500RS) or too weak (mostly on Logitech wheels)