FFB 1.12 Update

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Take a peek at this video

Discovery channel visited a college in England with a professional grade F1 simulator. Yes, I am aware GT6 is not this. However according to guy running the program- when the F1 car is at speed and loaded aerodynamically the weight of the wheel is upward of 70 kilos. 70..... Let that sink in a moment.................

In its current condition what would you guess our wheels are pulling now in GT6- 10, maaaaybe 20 kilos? I doubt it- but we can now add validity to the claim that nerf'ing wheel wieght is not a step toward adding realism to the simulation aspect of GT6. If anything it should be cranked up 4x what it was before the patch.
 
Glowplug007
In its current condition what would you guess our wheels are pulling now in GT6- 10, maaaaybe 20 kilos?
Click to expand...
Trouble is, your G27 motor is pitifully weak compared to those numbers... Let me quote you text from the iRacing forum, by the iRacing FFB guy about a G27:

"If you imagined the force needed to lift a liter carton of milk, and applied that force to the rim of a 300 mm wheel, you would end up with about a 1.5 Nm of torque. Your wheel peaks out at about 60% greater than that, maybe that will help put things into perspective. Or if you think about the fact you use two hands to drive, then each hand is lifting a little less than the weight of a milk carton at peak output. And of course during normal driving your wheel is hardly even outputting half that force. Your real car, on the other hand, outputs something closer to 10 Nm when taking a hard corner, if you ever do manage to take a hard corner in it"

A G27 can achieve around 2.5Nm of torque, which using his logic seems to equate to around 2 kilos of force at the rim (less than 2 liters of milk)

A CSW or T500 can achieve around 5-6Nm of torque, and typical direct drive wheels are capable of say 12-15Nm at the wheel rim. Those wheels can easily break your fingers.

P.S. I don't for one minute believe the 70kg figure: Imagine dead-lifting a fully grown adult male - in every corner for a 2 hour race. Not remotely feasible....
 
skazz
Trouble is, your G27 motor is pitifully weak compared to those numbers... Let me quote you text from the iRacing forum, by the iRacing FFB guy about a G27:

"If you imagined the force needed to lift a liter carton of milk, and applied that force to the rim of a 300 mm wheel, you would end up with about a 1.5 Nm of torque. Your wheel peaks out at about 60% greater than that, maybe that will help put things into perspective. Or if you think about the fact you use two hands to drive, then each hand is lifting a little less than the weight of a milk carton at peak output. And of course during normal driving your wheel is hardly even outputting half that force. Your real car, on the other hand, outputs something closer to 10 Nm when taking a hard corner, if you ever do manage to take a hard corner in it"

A G27 can achieve around 2.5Nm of torque, which using his logic seems to equate to around 2 kilos of force at the rim (less than 2 liters of milk)

A CSW or T500 can achieve around 5-6Nm of torque, and typical direct drive wheels are capable of say 12-15Nm at the wheel rim. Those wheels can easily break your fingers.
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Of course there's no way a G27 could pull that off- but that guy just also reinforced my point by mentioning a real car average 10nm- which if we are asking for more realism in this game then the FFB should be heavier then it's ever been, pushing our wheels to the max by default and allowing the user to turn down the force from there if they so desire.

I have read a lot of post by folks appreciating the subtleties of the new FFB profile- but the fact is- subtleties or not- if you want to get closer to "real" (as possible with a ps3)---- then you should all be begging for more wheel weight.
 
Glowplug007
Take a peek at this video

Discovery channel visited a college in England with a professional grade F1 simulator. Yes, I am aware GT6 is not this. However according to guy running the program- when the F1 car is at speed and loaded aerodynamically the weight of the wheel is upward of 70 kilos. 70..... Let that sink in a moment.................

In its current condition what would you guess our wheels are pulling now in GT6- 10, maaaaybe 20 kilos? I doubt it- but we can now add validity to the claim that nerf'ing wheel wieght is not a step toward adding realism to the simulation aspect of GT6. If anything it should be cranked up 4x what it was before the patch.
Click to expand...


Try to understand steering an aerodynamically loaded F1 and your steering the wheel on a Caravan, should NOT feel the same, how much downforce is your Caravan making lol. Please tell me you can see there is no comparison, AT ALL.

Given the X1 Cars and 97T could be a bit heavier for all that realism, This is not an F1 SiM. A few member with broken wheels after driving X1's too much before 1.12 might think it was too heavy for their wheels to handle, I broke a wheel with too high FFB in GT5, just too much.
 
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Hahhahahaha yea I'm not comparing F1 to a minivan lol it's probably making some serious drag but downforce not so much!

I know it's not an F1 sim but the gt300/500 cars have the same weight as the granturismo stingray corvette----we need more adjustment, as this wasn't the case on release.

What wheel did u break?
 
Glowplug007
Hahhahahaha yea I'm not comparing F1 to a minivan lol it's probably making some serious drag but downforce not so much!

I know it's not an F1 sim but the gt300/500 cars have the same weight as the granturismo stingray corvette----we need more adjustment, as this wasn't the case on release.

What wheel did u break?
Click to expand...


Its becoming more about those cars, but at its core its still IMO more about simulating driving the street cars, honestly closer to your minivan, than GT300/500. The level of realism and true diversity of 1200 cars is not realistically possible as we all want it to be on a PS3, they are most probably applying improvements as they develop GT7 where applicable, and that is not as many places as we as users would like. I think GT6 is a transitional learning venue for PD to implement the new data they have worked in from Yokohana and KW.
 
It strikes me as naïveté to consider that PD are making any of these changes with the Logitech wheels in mind, a range of products abandoned in the console format by their manufacturer, with no licensing contracts in place. Meanwhile, you will see banner ads for the T300RS on the GT6 website in any country where the T300 has been released, and an integral part of the 1.12 update was full control implementation and recognition of the T300 wheel. In many ways, the T300 feels like a direct replacement for the G27 style of wheel, albeit a slightly stronger and much smoother experience. Obviously that is little consolation to anyone who rightly argues that they should not be required to purchase another wheel. My decision to do so was guided more so by the concept of future proofing for the PS4, with Project Cars, GT7 and F1 2015 in mind. Whilst one could argue that the less than stellar performance of the G27 post-update was not a deliberate move per se, there is really no arguing that the current FFB model suits the T300 perfectly. Nor is there any argument that licensing deals exist between Sony, PD and Thrustmaster.
 
wahwah
It strikes me as naïveté to consider that PD are making any of these changes with the Logitech wheels in mind, a range of products abandoned in the console format by their manufacturer, with no licensing contracts in place. Meanwhile, you will see banner ads for the T300RS on the GT6 website in any country where the T300 has been released, and an integral part of the 1.12 update was full control implementation and recognition of the T300 wheel. In many ways, the T300 feels like a direct replacement for the G27 style of wheel, albeit a slightly stronger and much smoother experience. Obviously that is little consolation to anyone who rightly argues that they should not be required to purchase another wheel. My decision to do so was guided more so by the concept of future proofing for the PS4, with Project Cars, GT7 and F1 2015 in mind. Whilst one could argue that the less than stellar performance of the G27 post-update was not a deliberate move per se, there is really no arguing that the current FFB model suits the T300 perfectly. Nor is there any argument that licensing deals exist between Sony, PD and Thrustmaster.
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It seems more naive to think they don't. While yeah they are promoting the product that will also be compatible with GT7 they IMO still think of the people who currently play the PS3 on Logitech wheels & DS3 controllers, it would be pretty stupid of them to mess the game up for logitech users and say, "Hey, get a TM" it would be naive. Logitech is Fine for Most (as to a poll) But I think maybe some old wheels might not be up to it or something about the new effects trigger irregular lightness on faulty wheels, or people just want too much weight, but for me and MANY Logitech wheel owners, our wheels are plenty weighty enough. If you expect sim quality on a PS3, its a problem with unrealistic expectations.

The new FFB OMG my downstairs neighbors must hate me when I hit rumble strips lol
 
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My G27 is less than a year old and works exactly as it did on all other games. It is only on GT6 post 1.12 update that there is a noticeable lightness in the wheel. By your logic, hundreds of G27s all around the world simultaneously collapsed, coinciding with the moment the update was installed, but then miraculously work again with any other FFB game, failing again mysteriously when GT6 is put in the PS4. I'm hoping you can see how ridiculous a suggestion that is.

Sony, PD and Thrustmaster are cross promoting each other's products because they are in business together. None of them are in business with Logitech. There is nobody to push Logitech's case amongst them. Technology moves forward, business moves on, and some things, even good, useful things are rendered obsolete. Such will be the case with Logitech console peripherals beyond the PS3. That's not a matter of conjecture or opinion, it's simply a fact. It would seem that you are counting on goodwill as a motivator in profit based industries. As much as I appreciate idealism, there is a point where it tips over into delusion.
 
No by the Poll a majority have no problem with the new FFB on Logitech wheels

I see it like this IMHO Im nobody Special.

A) Some people want too heavy of a wheel / Old FFB was too much weight

B) Some people have something about their wheel that only shows its face on GT6 making the wheel too light with the new FFB triggering the irregular lightness.

I see A as more plausible than B
 
If we follow the logic that PD are concerned about all, not just some of Logitech's customers, then we could expect to see the implementation of the offering of choice in GT6 with regard to FFB. The complaints with regard to G25/27s post 1.12 began immediately, so by that logic PD are well aware of the situation. Thus the choice of returning to the pre 1.12 FFB paradigm for the many who prefer it must be imminent. That's the solution that will appease all of their customers who use the peripherals of a company they no longer have any dealings with. Personally, I hope that happens, even though I have moved on to the T300. For whatever reason, in two subsequent updates, no such option has been forthcoming. Meanwhile, the GT6 FFB feels better than ever on a T300, with a more than adequate dynamic range of adjustment for a wide variety of personal preferences. Interestingly, at the middle settings of 5/5, it feels a lot like a G27 pre 1.12 update, set to around 6, the main improvement being the superior smoothness of the T300s motor.
 
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Glowplug007
Of course there's no way a G27 could pull that off- but that guy just also reinforced my point by mentioning a real car average 10nm- which if we are asking for more realism in this game then the FFB should be heavier then it's ever been, pushing our wheels to the max by default and allowing the user to turn down the force from there if they so desire.
Click to expand...
I won't disagree, but there's a huge difference between heaviness at all times and dynamic range of forces growing stronger mid corner.

If you read the various Atlas plots on iRacing, you will see that only 1-2% of forces felt on the wheel ever come close to that 10Nm figure. Most cars have light steering under normal circumstances and will only weight up heavily under very high speed cornering which will be found briefly on some tracks.

Trouble with a wheel like G27 is that it has such a small force output range. I think PD is trying to increase the dynamic range of their FFB (since the Thrustmaster wheels can handle twice the range of Logitechs). For a more powerful wheel this means gradually feeling the wheel get heavier while corners or from jolts against curbs. For a a Logitech wheel it means most of the time you are operating in the very weak force range in order to have any kind of dynamic range for heavy forces where they are needed.

The only way to avoid this problem with Logitech wheels is to make FFB forces very non-linear, so that medium forces from the G27 are being provided all the time. Clearly PD were able to do this previously, the question is whether they are prepared to revert their new FFB engine, or more preferably build in an optional "loudness" function to compress forces (which would allow Fanatec users to keep the good FFB they get via Logitech piggyback).
 
I think PD on one hand might of switched over to a (and I don't know how the tech works really) 0 to 100% scale of available feedback, and uses weight vs road feedback balancing to keep effects and weight both registering inside the available feedback range of the wheel being used. Versus previously trying to simulate X weight on all wheels regardless of wheels range or FFB strength ability.

If all the strength is providing the weight, road feedback can only make the wheel feel lighter, it was a problem IMO, too high a FFB setting would drown out much of the road feedback, the heavier the wheel weight, the weaker the feedback from the road is. Now IMO the balance is where I like it for my cheap 6 year old wheel DFGT, its even better on my brand new G27.

Not all Logitech owners are upset, I am a happy one (I classify myself as a realist) The poll confirms I am not alone and we happy formed the majority (agreed that is of small reflection of things, its a sigh not all are upset), I expect it to feel more like a Civic wheel vs an F1, I expect the next gen wheels on a next gen console to be much more dynamic on next gen games, much of why last gen wheels may not be compatible.



I think some cheaper more realistic wheel options need to get put out for next gen, paying nearly double the cost of the console, is still too pricey.
 
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Testing with my G27 comparing to my DFGT, the new current FFB is better on my G27 vs DFGT. The core FFB engine Im unsure if they are exactly the same but it sure feels like it. The weight of the wheel and the strength of the effects is the same on both but with the G27 the FFB effects are much smoother and more precise. The Helical gears no doubt are responsible, providing smoother rotation much of the detail in the FFB that I wasn't feeling as clearly with the DFGT is felt with greater detail, this lets me respond better, quicker and more accurate. I have the FFB on both wheels at 6/6, this seems to be perfect for Logitech wheels providing excellent balance between wheel weight and FFB strength.

At the core, I think this is the best way to see FFB vs Wheel Weight. These 2 aspects require the same FFB system to reproduce & the more available strength used to simulate one, will come at the cost of strength in the other. Heavier wheel weight comes at the cost of Strength in FFB effects. Stronger FFB effects come at the cost of wheel weight, If we look at the system as having 100% available force, if one of them is using 75% of it, there is only 25% left for the other. Many people have ended up with broken wheels playing Gran Turismo from FFB too high and driving certain cars like the X1's (X1s notably the car with the heavies wheel weight in the game) This IMO is because the game was trying to make the wheel see more strength than it can handle jerking it around through both wheel weight and FFB effects. I broke a DFGT like this in GT5 driving a X1, and broke another in GT6 with a GT3 car, but the wheel is still useable. Before 1.12 FFB set at 10 was just too high for Logitech wheels to really handle & the Fix in my humble opinion has only reduced the wheel weight force by enough to allow both the wheel weight and FFB effects to be felt and work inside a more reasonabe force range that will be less likely to break users wheels. A user with a broken wheel, may not have the loot to replace the wheel and PS3/PS4 owners vs PS3/PS4 owners with wheels is a factor for them.

No we wont get the Simulated weight of a loaded F1 on Logitech wheels, I think that level of wheel simulation is for next gen wheels that are really more for next gen consoles vs the PS3, yeah GT6 Reps the T500 hard core, but this is a transitional moment, in both wheel technology & gaming system technology. The super hightech wheels when first got released had no games working off of their abilities, but now more of them coming out while still expensive developers are taking advantage of what they can do.


The thing about this is the new generation of SiM wheels have a much higher range of strength, and detail that many last gen wheels just don't have, these new wheels have more range to simulate a heavier wheel and all the strength left over for FFB effects. GT6/PS3 is still working more in the range of last gen wheels WHILE at the same time accommodating the new wheels.
 
All of what you said is probably tru- but for me with a g27 the FFB is now more realistic in gt5.

I'm at a crossroads now---- do I blow a huge wad of cash on a new wheel/pedal set and shifter(I like H pattern more then paddles)- along with a new PS4 when GT7 comes out or....... With the same money or less- pick up a used gaming computer on Craigslist with decent specs- some functional gauges to mount on my sim cockpit and maybe even a used 1080p projector to plug the video signal into. And of a course rfactor2 and a year subscription to iracing. All off which has way more realistic FFB - even on my trusty ol G27.

Hmmmmmm decisions decisions... O btw, have they developed video streaming for the ps4 yet? Lol
 
Glowplug007
Take a peek at this video

Discovery channel visited a college in England with a professional grade F1 simulator. Yes, I am aware GT6 is not this. However according to guy running the program- when the F1 car is at speed and loaded aerodynamically the weight of the wheel is upward of 70 kilos. 70..... Let that sink in a moment.................

In its current condition what would you guess our wheels are pulling now in GT6- 10, maaaaybe 20 kilos? I doubt it- but we can now add validity to the claim that nerf'ing wheel wieght is not a step toward adding realism to the simulation aspect of GT6. If anything it should be cranked up 4x what it was before the patch.
Click to expand...

I've tried that simulator before for a few laps but with Megane Race car instead around the same track IIRC. Can't remember about FFB much but you don't need to be strong to use it and the effects IIRC is a bit like Grid Autosport but probably a bit harder to feel the limit. Might be also due to only doing a few laps around this track for first time using a wheel and on motion simulator. I got told that that most find it hard to stay on track so best to go slowly first, the student was in disbelief when I beat his best lap time by over a second after my first few laps as he said it took him like a years practice to achieve that time :lol:.
 
Saidur_Ali
I've tried that simulator before for a few laps but with Megane Race car instead around the same track IIRC. Can't remember about FFB much but you don't need to be strong to use it and the effects IIRC is a bit like Grid Autosport but probably a bit harder to feel the limit. Might be also due to only doing a few laps around this track for first time using a wheel and on motion simulator. I got told that that most find it hard to stay on track so best to go slowly first, the student was in disbelief when I beat his best lap time by over a second after my first few laps as he said it took him like a years practice to achieve that time :lol:.
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That's funny- I bet he was pissed
 
The FFB in F1 2013/2014 is no stronger than GT6, I would of thought that F1 would be a game where a heavy wheel is more important, all the cars are F1's. I have Grid2, but haven't played it yet, Ill check it out sometime this week to see how it weighs up. I'm looking for the games that have the heavy wheel that GT6 new FFB is supposed to be so much lighter than.
 
Glowplug007
All of what you said is probably tru- but for me with a g27 the FFB is now more realistic in gt5.

I'm at a crossroads now---- do I blow a huge wad of cash on a new wheel/pedal set and shifter(I like H pattern more then paddles)- along with a new PS4 when GT7 comes out or....... With the same money or less- pick up a used gaming computer on Craigslist with decent specs- some functional gauges to mount on my sim cockpit and maybe even a used 1080p projector to plug the video signal into. And of a course rfactor2 and a year subscription to iracing. All off which has way more realistic FFB - even on my trusty ol G27.

Hmmmmmm decisions decisions... O btw, have they developed video streaming for the ps4 yet? Lol
Click to expand...
There are so many factors in that decision but I think you're right that cost isn't really one of them. For about $800-1000 you can get a very good gaming PC that works with any wheel and is upgradable whereas a new PS4 + a new wheel + a couple of years subscription to PS+ is also about $1000.
 
Johnnypenso
There are so many factors in that decision but I think you're right that cost isn't really one of them. For about $800-1000 you can get a very good gaming PC that works with any wheel and is upgradable whereas a new PS4 + a new wheel + a couple of years subscription to PS+ is also about $1000.
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500 (PS4) + 200 (PS+) + 300 (wheel) = 1000 (plus GT7, which is $60)

Yep, that'll do it. I have both right now, and I find myself connecting my G27 to the Playstaion more than the PC. PS+ is a really good deal, and I'd take that for granted. I'll stick with PS for now.
 
EF12345678
500 (PS4) + 200 (PS+) + 300 (wheel) = 1000 (plus GT7, which is $60)

Yep, that'll do it. I have both right now, and I find myself connecting my G27 to the Playstaion more than the PC. PS+ is a really good deal, and I'd take that for granted. I'll stick with PS for now.
Click to expand...

Wheel wont be 300$ unless your going to run a PS3 level wheel on all that losing out on sooooo much. All of it IMO is not worth much without a wheel that currently is closer to 800$, wheel & shifter, PS4 (fixed) wont run the Logitech G27 300$ wheel either.
 
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EF12345678
500 (PS4) + 200 (PS+) + 300 (wheel) = 1000 (plus GT7, which is $60)

Yep, that'll do it. I have both right now, and I find myself connecting my G27 to the Playstaion more than the PC. PS+ is a really good deal, and I'd take that for granted. I'll stick with PS for now.
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In @Glowplug007 's case, he already has a G27 which works on the PS3. For you, anyone buying a PS4, the T300 is the cheapest FFB wheel for the PS4 at this point and it's $400+ and that's with a cheapo pedal set, no clutch and no shifter. To get a new pedal set and new shifter to match is going to cost you another $300 at least bringing the total to $1400. Admittedly it would be better than the G27 but if total cost is an issue, the G27/PC route might be a better option for him. He would also have the option in the future of buying the T300 or T500 and an adaptor to use the G27 pedals and shifter with either wheel.
 
Johnnypenso
In @Glowplug007 's case, he already has a G27 which works on the PS3. For you, anyone buying a PS4, the T300 is the cheapest FFB wheel for the PS4 at this point and it's $400+ and that's with a cheapo pedal set, no clutch and no shifter. To get a new pedal set and new shifter to match is going to cost you another $300 at least bringing the total to $1400. Admittedly it would be better than the G27 but if total cost is an issue, the G27/PC route might be a better option for him.
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Yeah, I don't have that kind of money.

MidNightGT
PS3 wont run the Logitech G27 300$ wheel either.
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You mean PS4 right, or am I magical?
 
""""""In @@Glowplug007 's case, he already has a G27 which works on the PS3. For you, anyone buying a PS4, the T300 is the cheapest FFB wheel for the PS4 at this point and it's $400+ and that's with a cheapo pedal set, no clutch and no shifter. To get a new pedal set and new shifter to match is going to cost you another $300 at least bringing the total to $1400. Admittedly it would be better than the G27 but if total cost is an issue, the G27/PC route might be a better option for him. He would also have the option in the future of buying the T300 or T500 and an adaptor to use the G27 pedals and shifter with either wheel."""""""""""

Exactly! For the money it would cost to get an equivalent setup on a ps4 I could have a totally pimped out everything if I went PC and kept my fully functional wheel/pedal/shifter- Or I could go with a very solid PC setup and save a crap ton of money.

Either way thrustmaster or fanatec need to come up with their version of the g27 set up that costs 3x less then what they are charging now. That's what made the g27 so popular- solid components and a good price point.
 
Glowplug007
""""""In @@Glowplug007 's case, he already has a G27 which works on the PS3. For you, anyone buying a PS4, the T300 is the cheapest FFB wheel for the PS4 at this point and it's $400+ and that's with a cheapo pedal set, no clutch and no shifter. To get a new pedal set and new shifter to match is going to cost you another $300 at least bringing the total to $1400. Admittedly it would be better than the G27 but if total cost is an issue, the G27/PC route might be a better option for him. He would also have the option in the future of buying the T300 or T500 and an adaptor to use the G27 pedals and shifter with either wheel."""""""""""

Exactly! For the money it would cost to get an equivalent setup on a ps4 I could have a totally pimped out everything if I went PC and kept my fully functional wheel/pedal/shifter- Or I could go with a very solid PC setup and save a crap ton of money.

Either way thrustmaster or fanatec need to come up with their version of the g27 set up that costs 3x less then what they are charging now. That's what made the g27 so popular- solid components and a good price point.
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I agree with you. $800 should buy me a movie theater, not one wheel with no accessories.

I'm going to hold off until July 2015 and see what can be done with my wheel regarding the PS4. There has to be some way to get it to work, through hacks, updates, or devices.
 
Here in Australia: PS4 ($550) + T300 ($700) + Ricmotech pedal adapter ($20) + GT7 ($90) + PS Plus 1 year ($70) = $1430

I could build a high end gaming PC for that amount, keep my G25, and have unlimited games and free online.

Problem is I want GT7. And my G25 has become slightly off centre over the last few months so it's a good time as any to get a new wheel.

Decisions decisions...

I'll probably just wait until GT7 release to decide before buying anything. Hoping for PS4 Logitech support by then but I'm not holding my breath.

Also I can't understand what makes the T300RS so damn expensive. It doesn't have a shifter and the pedals are crap (and there's no clutch). The motor and internals are better, but surely it's not worth $300 above the G25. Makes me appreciate what a good deal my G25 was really.
 

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