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- driftking18594
- CiaranGTR94
Fight for $15. (Fast food protest)
- Thread starter CAMAROBOY69
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- 6,963
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...Interesting. Not sure what the cost of living is like in Finland, but that amount should be too little to offer a comfortable, NEET-like existence, I think.
I also think the target for this scheme might be important as well - if I was a pimply-faced fresh meat straight out of a local high school with nothing but a single pat on the back for surviving it, then would I be "incentivised" to find work right away when there's enough moolah for me to buy the.... uh, latest copy of COD? Hmm.
...Heh, maybe I should emigrate to Finland. The weather might be terrible but the free cash sounds like a good bait to me. Provided, of course, as long as this whole thing passes the mustard. And the Finnish gov folks increase the amount a wee bit more....
- 6,963
- South Africa
...Done deal, then. I better get started on immigration procedure to Australia right away.
In all seriousness, though - for how long the Aussie gov pony up this money for? Also, I'd think there should be some strings attached there. The way I read that Finnish thing is that they are willing to pay the unemployed folks indefinitely, whether they have found jobs or not.
With Australia, isn't it basically the unemployment grant/fund run by the national/federal government? Which, I believe many other countries also do have.
xyloscissor
(Banned)
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If anyone can pull this off it's those damn way to smart finnish
It's an interesting approach and it makes me think right off, can we set aside our differences and gain mutual respect. I hope so, the mix of marx and smith is way too cool to ignore and I don't know where else it is happening in a successful manner so ... 👍
Time will tell.
- 6,963
- South Africa
...Okay, no more kidding around. Time for a serious question - who is going to shore up the coffers of this "universal basic income"? I know it's the Finnish government, so that means it's via collected taxes. But in 100 years time (my somewhat shaky estimation) when we are all replaced out of our jobs by the robots, we wouldn't be able to pay the taxes in the first place. So where would the gov officials come up with the money, then?
Collect it from the business owners? From those with stable income/jobs? What are the moral implications here?
Obviously, I'm simplifying things greatly here, but can't help but feel it may not work as intended. 2000 people earning 560 Euros every month doesn't seem a lot of money, but if the number of recipients increases to hundreds of thousands, maybe even to millions, then just how much "taxing" would be for the government to make sure the whole thing doesn't collapse?
Collect it from the business owners? From those with stable income/jobs? What are the moral implications here?
Obviously, I'm simplifying things greatly here, but can't help but feel it may not work as intended. 2000 people earning 560 Euros every month doesn't seem a lot of money, but if the number of recipients increases to hundreds of thousands, maybe even to millions, then just how much "taxing" would be for the government to make sure the whole thing doesn't collapse?
BobK
Premium
- 7,020
- Massachusetts, USA
I'm skeptical of its basic premise.
According to the head of Finland's Social Insurance Institution legal affairs unit:
I really don't see how a guaranteed minimum income is going to make people more eager to find work. Seems to me the incentive is exactly the opposite.
According to the head of Finland's Social Insurance Institution legal affairs unit:
Marjukka Turunen
I really don't see how a guaranteed minimum income is going to make people more eager to find work. Seems to me the incentive is exactly the opposite.
xyloscissor
(Banned)
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- 28,470
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- Johnnypenso
The part I don't get is, how can they just cherry pick a couple of thousand people to receive taxpayer money with no strings attached. Random or not, it would not be acceptable to me that only a handful of people will receive this benefit.
- 29,262
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- GTP_Mars
Apparently Glasgow City Council is considering becoming the first to trial a universal basic income in the UK - my initial reaction was to think I'd been asleep for 3 months and it was April Fool's Day already. One idea as to where the money will come from is to redistribute the existing welfare spend, or in other words, take from those who are already poor and share it between everyone regardless of need... it's a very socialist idea, but I can't see it helping the poor!
- 9,401
- Western Sydney
- mustafur
Sounds like the GFC to me.
- 28,470
- Windsor, Ontario, Canada
- Johnnypenso
- 11,638
- Intercourse, PA
- Carbonox
It's only an experiment phase, so that's why.
I'm just annoyed that they're constantly calling it basic income nowadays, when the alternative term I've heard every now and then (citizen wage) sounds a lot more eloquent.
- 28,470
- Windsor, Ontario, Canada
- Johnnypenso
Whatever they call it doesn't matter really. It's a government handout, aka citizen tax money, and such it should be available to all qualified citizens.It's only an experiment phase, so that's why.
I'm just annoyed that they're constantly calling it basic income nowadays, when the alternative term I've heard every now and then (citizen wage) sounds a lot more eloquent.
xyloscissor
(Banned)
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I think it is important to note, at least imo, they are successful at mixing socialism with capitalism. I know it's an oxymoron but it just might be they are onto something here and the fairness part you are asking for might not really matter.
I hate "progressive" 99% of the time but hey, we are speaking of Finland
- 28,470
- Windsor, Ontario, Canada
- Johnnypenso
Fairness might not matter? How does it not matter? If I was unemployed and living in Finland and my neighbours who are in the exact same situation as me get a free government handout and I don't, I'd be up in arms about it. It's essentially a benefit lottery. Since when are citizens ok with their tax money being handed out to citizens on a random basis?I think it is important to note, at least imo, they are successful at mixing socialism with capitalism. I know it's an oxymoron but it just might be they are onto something here and the fairness part you are asking for might not really matter.
I hate "progressive" 99% of the time but hey, we are speaking of Finland
xyloscissor
(Banned)
- 933
- United States
Give it a little bit of time before you jump in with all that, I'm not disagreeing with you on principal however sometimes there is a natural progression.
Added just for fun sake, you will never be unemployed first off and it's probably a stretch to think you'd ever be living there. Ok that is the joke part but the serious part is you do not pay tax in that country.
Added just for fun sake, you will never be unemployed first off and it's probably a stretch to think you'd ever be living there. Ok that is the joke part but the serious part is you do not pay tax in that country.
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- 9,401
- Western Sydney
- mustafur
Global Financial Crisis.
If I'm Mistaken a select few where given a massive cash injection so they didn't collapse.
- 6,963
- South Africa
While reading this article, I remembered this thread so I shall leave behind a link.
"Japanese Insurance Firm Replaces 34 Staff Members with A.I."
Apparently, the move will increase the productivity by 30% and save the firm around $1.2 Mil per year in salaries.
Hmm. I don't know about you, but I've never trusted any insurance agents. They all seemed like a bunch of man-eating jackals out to make as much buck off me all the while doing everything in its powers not to pay me what's been owed....
And now, they are all going The Terminator, at least in Japan. Can I safely say that now these insurance guys are even less human-like?
"Japanese Insurance Firm Replaces 34 Staff Members with A.I."
Apparently, the move will increase the productivity by 30% and save the firm around $1.2 Mil per year in salaries.
Hmm. I don't know about you, but I've never trusted any insurance agents. They all seemed like a bunch of man-eating jackals out to make as much buck off me all the while doing everything in its powers not to pay me what's been owed....
And now, they are all going The Terminator, at least in Japan. Can I safely say that now these insurance guys are even less human-like?
- 29,826
- Bratvegas
- GTP_Liquid
AI will replace a lot of jobs over the next 50 years. There will be many people who become unemployed and suddenly find themselves unskilled for the job market. And we're not even close to having robots be able to do everything for us and have all most people be able to live in autonomous luxury.
Tough times ahead.
Tough times ahead.
- 29,262
- Glasgow
- GTP_Mars
It is funny how used to the concept of 'working for a living' we have become - and that the very idea of not working yet living comfortably seems 'wrong' somehow. But it is not only possible but increasingly likely that the future for many people will involve 'not working' for one reason or another - the question is how to ensure that living standards continue to improve while more and more people leave the labour market. It is a complex situation and my understanding of economics is clearly not advanced enough to pretend to understand how it might all work out, but it is at least worth bearing in mind that the mindset/attitude/belief that it is necessary for a human being to work in order to enjoy a high standard of living may be something that we need to move away from, and that - for human beings at least - it may well be possible to have our cake and eat it, as it were.
Danoff
Premium
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- Mile High City
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...-really-helps-workers/?utm_term=.6f41c23139c1
Whaaaaat? Forcing employers to pay $15/hr to people that can't earn that results in reduced hours, layoffs, and postponed hiring? No way... that's crazy talk. Makes no sense whatsoever. The fact that this contradicts economic studies should make everyone skeptical of economic studies because... duh!
Here's one of the problems with one of the old studies:
Current study accounts for that nonsense:
Whaaaaat? Forcing employers to pay $15/hr to people that can't earn that results in reduced hours, layoffs, and postponed hiring? No way... that's crazy talk. Makes no sense whatsoever. The fact that this contradicts economic studies should make everyone skeptical of economic studies because... duh!
Here's one of the problems with one of the old studies:
article
Current study accounts for that nonsense:
article
- 3,417
- NJ
- Rave2Grave
If employers can't pay full-time workers a living wage, meaning enough to afford a single man or woman a one-bedroom apartment/flat in a decent part of town + transportation + food, then they don't deserve to have employees at all. They should themselves go work for an employer who CAN afford or WANTS to pay their workers enough to not need to beg the government for help, or work themselves to death, or share a room. /end rant
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Employers are only able to get away with paying low wages because people are willing to work for those low wages.
Danoff
Premium
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- Mile High City
What do you mean "deserve" to have employees? Maybe you should read @Northstar's post more closely.
It's a voluntary contract. Employer has money, needs work. Worker has labor to give, needs money. Value is exchanged. Employers do not need to "earn" having any employee, it's just an exchange between two people.
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I see he hasn't learned anything from his last go at this thread.
- 28,470
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- Johnnypenso
FTFY
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