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- TenEightyOne
- TenEightyOne
Fight for $15. (Fast food protest)
- Thread starter CAMAROBOY69
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we as in those individuals who believe we live under a free market system. as for the fascism part, I'm referring to the excessive amount intervention in the economy on the part of governments.
Danoff
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@SuzukaStar, spare yourself over a thousand pages of turgid prose. Atlas Shrugged's basically about a petulant Marty Stu and his gazillionaire buddies running away from society because they're getting "triggered" by taxes and quality control regulations, and of course society collapses without them.
I wonder if you appreciate the fact that this does actually happen. Not only on a large scale, where companies restructure to outside the US to avoid double taxation (Google, Apple, Adobe, IBM, GE, Microsoft, Johnson & Johnson, Oracle, it goes on and on - these are all no longer US companies). It also happens on the smallest of scales - where families choose to forgo income in exchange for working less because of their tax bracket (this hurts the economy and everyone in it). And it happens everywhere in between, like when Breaking Bad gets filmed in New Mexico instead of California. At every possible level in the economy exactly what you misunderstood in Atlas Shrugged happens to a major degree. In fact, human nature (capitalism) perfectly predicts it.
Well the movies were not executed well. The Hobbit was also not executed well, doesn't mean you shouldn't read the book.
- 2,188
- Northwest Passage
- 27,387
- Toronto
- NewAesthetic
- SlipZtrEm
I take it by that last comment that you don't consider their current skill-set particularly useful, which begs the question of why you think they deserve a massive pay increase for continuing to do the same job.
Describe "survive", because that Subway employee seems to be surviving.
It makes no sense that certain parts of the country cost more to live in than other parts of the country? Really?
...is this now your argument? Really?
Still waiting on answers.
CodeRedR51
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Yes, that one. Was there another mentioned?
CodeRedR51
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Ah, that one.
$3000 pre-tax a month isn't enough to survive? I won't argue that 75 hours a week is too much - I did it for one summer and it took its toll - but even at 50 hours a week at his current wage, that'd be $2000 pre-tax each month. Not enough to build an extension onto a house or tour the South of France anytime soon, but I refuse to believe that can't cover rent and food.
...and this still ignores the myriad negative effects a hike to $15 would have. At Subway, maybe Mr. Carrillo stays on. Maybe he can can cut his hours to a mere 40 per week, and enjoy $2400 a month. That doesn't help the coworkers that were subsequently let go so that Subway could afford to pay him his new wage. Woops, and now that there are less employees, there are more open shifts that need to be covered...
CodeRedR51
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Yeah I think the point is the hours they have to work to get by in a location where pretty much everyone knows it's expensive to live anyway.
Don't get me wrong, I think the minimum wage needs to be raised. Not to $15/hr, maybe something more realistic like $9/hr would certainly help.
Don't get me wrong, I think the minimum wage needs to be raised. Not to $15/hr, maybe something more realistic like $9/hr would certainly help.
McLaren
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Agreed.
It's as if someone asked during a meeting, "What should we ask them to raise the minimum wage to?" & someone piped up in the back, "Let's ask them to double it!" And they just went from there.
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- Neomone
But if everyone knows it's expensive to live there, why choose to live there when you know you're working a low wage job?
I could live in the CBD if I wanted, but it would cost me a fortune. So I live in the suburbs, and found myself a job in the suburbs. My money goes a lot further, and I have a three bedroom house with a yard and a garage for less rent than a one room studio in the city.
This sounds like a cupcake generation problem to me, people who know that they don't have much still want to have it all instead of making rational choices about what is really important. If you can't afford to live in New York, maybe you should move out of New York. It's called budgeting, and it's an important skill.
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CodeRedR51
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There could be several reasons why they stay. Family in the area might be one, or they just simply cannot afford to move could be another. These are things we do not know.
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- Neomone
If I can move from New Zealand to Australia with $800NZ, they can move to a different town if they want. People make these things more difficult than they need to be.
If they're staying for family in the area, then they need to be weighing up whether the cost of living close to their family is worth it. There's no rule that says you have to be able to have your cake and eat it too. Sometimes you find yourself in situations where you just have to choose.
There are many good reasons to stay in a place, and they should all be weighed against the things that you have to do to stay. If I have to sell myself on the street corner every night just to be able to afford to live near my family, maybe I don't think that's worth it. Maybe some people would think that it was.
But the right answer is not "pay me more for my low skilled job so that I can continue to live this lifestyle that I've arbitrarily decided that I'm entitled to". The answer is to work on the things that you can change yourself, either get yourself more income or reduce your expenses in the myriad ways that can be done (only one of which is relocation).
CodeRedR51
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And some people like yourself make it sound easier than it probably would be for them. We don't know these people personally so we can only make assumptions as to their situation.
But this is how society operates today, telling people they are worthless on the internet while hiding behind a computer screen because they don't live a life that we categorize as "normal".
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- Neomone
We're talking about moving town, not sailing around the world. It may be emotionally difficult, but it doesn't make it practically difficult. If someone wants to move, there's no real obstacle unless they have no money at all or are looking at moving serious distance.
The only obstacle is mental, in that once you've decided to move it's really not that hard at all. People have trouble making that decision.
Ah, abuse.
It's not about telling anyone they're worthless, and I'd prefer that you didn't imply that I had. Nor did I imply that everyone should live a "normal" life, whatever that means. I doubt I qualify as living a "normal" life.
I'm simply pointing out the obvious, that if you're having trouble making ends meet then it's a lot more effective to actually do something to improve your situation than it is to handball your problems to the government to solve. But that requires you to put yourself out there and take some chances, which is something that a lot of people are pretty uncomfortable with. Nor am I saying people should do it all on their own, there are lots of organisations out there that will help along with individuals who will help with everything from advice to money and goods and whatever else you need. People are nice when they see you're trying to do something hard.
It can be tough sometimes, don't get me wrong, but if life gives you lemons then you can have a little cry, or you can get out there and make some sort of delicious lemon drink, sell it to passersby and create a multi-million dollar beverage franchise.
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- TenEightyOne
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- Rave2Grave
That's the biggest reason why people don't move. I want to move to the west coast, but I can't save money to move because it all goes to paying rent, food, and utilities. I don't have much in assets either, maybe $5,000 if I also sell my car. I don't know anyone out there I could stay with. How did people migrate to America with no money and no job? Where did they sleep? What did they do? I would only move over 50 miles away if I was guaranteed a job nearby.
- 87,465
- Rule 12
- GTP_Famine
Who would it help?
Minimum wages lead to four things inevitably:
* Short term inflation, as lowest paid workers' wealth increases
* Short term devaluation, as highest per income spenders (lowest paid workers) push more currency into the money pool
* Medium term unemployment, as lowest paid workers' jobs are removed to save on expenditure or replaced with automation
* Long term increase of the minimum wage, as money is worth less and fewer people are paid so some bright spark thinks the solution is to get those people paid more
Minimum wage hurts the lowest paid workers, by reducing the value of their salary and by prompting their employers to seek ways to replace them with automation. It makes it illegal for them to accept a job at $5/hr (or whatever) because the law says they can't be paid $9/hr - so they either need the skills to exceed the value of automation or they do not work. It also kills small businesses, by making it illegal for them to employ people that they can afford to pay.
It also generally leads to a fifth thing - the increase of property prices, though this isn't inevitable and it depends on the climate at the time. As we saw from the sub-prime lending fiasco, it can lead to the tanking of property prices through oversupply (from people being sacked due to minimum wage and losing their houses), but this may lead to a sudden increase as property developers and landlords buy up vacant properties and lease them, increasing demand...
If you're a valuable enough future employee, an employer will go out of their way to get you there. They will cover (or occasionally loan) your moving costs and help get you set up in your new location - but you need to be worth their time. If you're an unskilled worker, why would they take you 3,000 miles when they could pull in any old schmuck off the street?
This is something you need to bring up in your cover letter - that you're willing to move great distances for this exciting opportunity - and at interview.
Desperation. They figured that anything was better than what they had and the land of opportunity was the place to go.
Lots of them died.
Jubby
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Ultimately, if the minimum wage is increased to $15/hour, the people I'd feel worse for are those making 35-50 grand per year.
If a minimum wage person makes $7.50/hour over 2000 hours per year, that's 15 grand per year. They'll now make 30 grand... for what? Nothing.
The people making more than that (35-50 grand) usually have worked their tails off to obtain a management or high skill position. We know that there are a few consequences of the increased pay (not all inclusive); prices will be higher, hours will be less (for those hourly workers), demand (stress) will be more, and people will be laid off or benefits will be reduced.
Those people already earning more will be impacted by a few of those; higher prices causes a purchasing power issue reducing the value of their money (essentially), the demand and stress will increase as these folks will most likely be managing the people who make minimum wage, and most companies will cut money out of the budget via benefits. This further stretches expenses on those already earning higher wages.
It's not fair for people to be making $7.50 per hour? Maybe. Is it fair to double their pay and screw those that have earned the positions that already pay around/more than that? Nope.
If a minimum wage person makes $7.50/hour over 2000 hours per year, that's 15 grand per year. They'll now make 30 grand... for what? Nothing.
The people making more than that (35-50 grand) usually have worked their tails off to obtain a management or high skill position. We know that there are a few consequences of the increased pay (not all inclusive); prices will be higher, hours will be less (for those hourly workers), demand (stress) will be more, and people will be laid off or benefits will be reduced.
Those people already earning more will be impacted by a few of those; higher prices causes a purchasing power issue reducing the value of their money (essentially), the demand and stress will increase as these folks will most likely be managing the people who make minimum wage, and most companies will cut money out of the budget via benefits. This further stretches expenses on those already earning higher wages.
It's not fair for people to be making $7.50 per hour? Maybe. Is it fair to double their pay and screw those that have earned the positions that already pay around/more than that? Nope.
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- Rave2Grave
There's a good book everyone here should read called "What Social Classes Owe Each Other" and here's an excerpt...
PDF here: https://mises.org/sites/default/files/What Social Classes Owe Each Other_2.pdf
PDF here: https://mises.org/sites/default/files/What Social Classes Owe Each Other_2.pdf
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The answer to that is "nothing".
Which brings us onto another consequence...
What's the point in paying tens of thousands to put yourself through college/university to get attractive skills and qualifications when you come out of it earning very little over what you would earn shuffling flattened, ground offal? More to the point, if you're going to be doing that in order to earn enough to put yourself through college/university anyway, why not just do that instead?
As people realise that, it leads to a massive reduction in the average education of the population. You know all those really stupid people that we all encounter on a daily basis? Now imagine there's loads more of them.
There's also a direct correlation between stupidity and violence - particularly violent crime, which is at an all time low at the moment, thanks to the gradual increase in intelligence in global populations.
While we're on that tack, there's also a direct correlation between poverty and violent crime. Minimum wage inherently increases the latter and is a feasible cause of the former.
Do you want more spree shootings? Only that's how you get more spree shootings.
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- Rave2Grave
People seem to deny the fact that, as the poor grow larger and larger in number, the rich must solve the problem or be destroyed. They have the power. They have the responsibility.
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Demonstrate that it is a fact, not an hypothesis.
I wouldn't object to you answering a few of the questions from earlier in the thread either, as at the moment it looks more like you're proselytising.
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- Rave2Grave
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What does that have to do with your statement that it is a fact that "the rich must either solve the problem or be destroyed"?
When are you going to answer any questions posed to you in this thread?
ROAD_DOGG33J
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I think these excerpts might answer one of the questions.
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