- 3,053
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- kilesa4568
Final Quick Match Races 2-7-18
- Thread starter MOPARbarrett5
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- 626
- Northern Ireland
- GTRP_mirial
I hope you guys won't kill me for this post.
I'm lightyears away from being good in car mechanics / car physics.
@mirial would you try to explain the relations in what you mentioned above.
I'd be satisfied with a short essay
!
It's one of the most confusing (and understandably so) things that throw the vast majority of people outside of motor racing circles, and has taken lesser mortals like me, years to figure out most of it and to just speculate the rest.
This is very complex, but grip is basically divided into two components; mechanical deformation friction and adhesive friction (at the very least, half the total grip, which is why racing cars are so much slower in the wet, because adhesion is virtually non existent). We'll just ignore mechanical tearing as another component, because we are dealing with racing and looking after tyres unlike the D1 drifters who tear the 🤬 out their tyres. Deformation friction is the rubber physically interlocking into the texture of the road (think of rough, dry concrete) and the adhesive friction is the rubber itself that has filled that very rough texture and sticks to whatever parts of that rough texture. Think of the adhesion itself as rubber against glass in isolation.
As for the road surface at Bathurst, I'm speculating that it is 'green' asphalt because of the feedback from when the car begins to slide, like smooth sandpaper, as opposed to somewhere like midfield which seems to be like rubbered-in asphalt, where the tyres screech immediately and the car slides smoothly. I mentioned stiffer roll bars for Bathurst, so can only speculate that because the car generates more and faster weight transfer to the outside, that the adhesion itself is being generated sooner than a car with softer roll bars and more body roll. The track is narrow and most of the corners are slow/medium speed, so we can afford to run cars with more roll stiffness and relatively high ride height because the car isn't in danger of exceeding the limit of grip (much higher cornering loads at tracks like Suzuka means that when we are looking for the optimum biting point, the front generally and sometimes the rear, are in danger of losing grip, so we can't run the car too high either for example.
No one has ever been able to explain properly why increasing ride height often increases grip (in GT and in real life in odd ball scenarios) but can only speculate that it's because more vertical load on one side of the car is actually preventing the car from sliding simply because when more vertical load is placed on something, it takes a larger force to actually get it moving, plus for reasons already explained, the additional vertical load at that given moment is also generating better adhesion in that type of asphalt or Tarmac that might not be rubbered-in properly. Getting away with more weight transfer of any kind is something typical of lighter racing cars with high cornering power, so many of those guys who say weight transfer is a bad thing are sometimes wrong, because these cars can accept it. The Porsche 908/3 had most of the weight on the right hand side to take advantage of the anti-clockwise circuits which was very successful on the tight mountain roads. Also, some single seater drivers deliberately increase pre-load (like running stiffer front springs) to push the front tyres hard into the road before any hard cornering takes place. Again, single seaters are an example of cars with high cornering power which aren't like other racing cars where they are often limited by mid corner grip (when the car is subjected to max weight transfer).
Silverstone seems to be very abrasive Tarmac that hasn't been rubbered-in at all simply because the sliding action feels rough in comparison, and deliberately drifting the car and setting it up with stiff roll bars is what generates the adhesion when the outside gets loaded up and is where most of the total grip comes from. Somewhere like midfield where adhesion is immediate favours a style where sliding is delayed.
@kilesa4568 PSN GTRP Mirial Will try and get on after 8 for a few races. 👍
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- 1,800
- United Kingdom
- bone_tone
Bathurst tonight, into the room came @kilesa4568 and @StirlingMoose (although Stirling couldn't stay long), then followed by @mirial .
Became a GTP domination event, much to the disgust of the other racers, one of whom accused us of using SRF......
Became a GTP domination event, much to the disgust of the other racers, one of whom accused us of using SRF......
- 1,510
- United Kingdom
- StirlingMoose
Bathurst tonight, into the room came @kilesa4568 and @StirlingMoose (although Stirling couldn't stay long), then followed by @mirial .
Became a GTP domination event, much to the disgust of the other racers, one of whom accused us of using SRF......
I came back to look for you but found @coryclifford instead. I can't say we dominated, well I didn't anyway, but we had a laugh.
- 3,053
- England
- kilesa4568
I've been gagging for a racing session like that for a week. Hard racing with lots of dodging around the nutters.👍
Quality racing with you guys.
Quality racing with you guys.
- 2,017
- Ludwigsburg
- RocketJoe1-61
Bathurst tonight, into the room came @kilesa4568 and @StirlingMoose (although Stirling couldn't stay long), then followed by @mirial .
Became a GTP domination event, much to the disgust of the other racers, one of whom accused us of using SRF......
Shortly after you'd left I entered the room and tried to be a good substitute ... and there was at least one great
GTP 1 2 3 👍
@mirial
You're not only dang fast at the wheel, you also seem to have quite a bit of indepth knowledge
!You're a crazy man - I never expected some scientific paper on driving physics - you did exactly that.
After reading I didn't decide to "burn after reading" but to read it again with bit more time and a dictionary
.Thanks mate.
- 5,684
- Ohio
I did pretty good if I wasn't destroyed by a select few. Some have it out for you if you do good. Blast by everyone on lap 1, let a few by, have fun for two laps. Laughing the whole time. Some have an agenda. That's the funny part when they fail. Good to see you @StirlingMoose
- 1,510
- United Kingdom
- StirlingMoose
Always a pleasure to watch the famous tailgating, and be the victim of it occasionally. We should have had a 1-2 once the srf-er had gone but it's such hard work passing here, especially when you don't know if you can trust them.
- 2,017
- Ludwigsburg
- RocketJoe1-61
Hey Cory, racing with your setup atm and slowly getting into it, really nice one 👍.
- 626
- Northern Ireland
- GTRP_mirial
[QUOTE="ROCKET JOE, post: 11931530, member: 262771]
you also seem to have quite a bit of indepth knowledge
I never expected some scientific paper on driving physics.[/QUOTE]
Well, that is a short essay and I'm still speculating some of it, but I've tried to clear things up because there is a lot of contradiction. Years of racing RC cars was a good starting point for the frustration, plus a couple of really good books has made GT a bit easier. PD have simplified things in their physics with no tyre deformation and either ignoring camber change or ensuring that the wheels are always upright in the corner.
The key thing is to think about what all four wheels are doing throughout the lap and to think about where the less than ideal characteristics are occurring exactly and to think about what horizontal and vertical loads those wheel(s) are being subjected to at that given moment combined with that exact driver input. It's a case of making the right adjustment to either increase the load or reduce it without compromising the other handling characteristics too much. If the tyres are biting properly and then let go suddenly somewhere, then the load on that tyre needs to be reduced in some way (lower ride height/softer roll bar/softer springs/less camber. If the tyres feel as though they aren't biting, then do the opposite.
@bone_tone I was also accused, and when I said I didn't, the user then tried to redeem himself. There are also some nasty SRF users out there, there was a guy the other night who deliberately bashed others in order to trigger the collision penalty at the start.,He hated me beating him with no assists apart from ABS, with him taking stupid speed on the way into corners.
you also seem to have quite a bit of indepth knowledge
I never expected some scientific paper on driving physics.[/QUOTE]
Well, that is a short essay and I'm still speculating some of it, but I've tried to clear things up because there is a lot of contradiction. Years of racing RC cars was a good starting point for the frustration, plus a couple of really good books has made GT a bit easier. PD have simplified things in their physics with no tyre deformation and either ignoring camber change or ensuring that the wheels are always upright in the corner.
The key thing is to think about what all four wheels are doing throughout the lap and to think about where the less than ideal characteristics are occurring exactly and to think about what horizontal and vertical loads those wheel(s) are being subjected to at that given moment combined with that exact driver input. It's a case of making the right adjustment to either increase the load or reduce it without compromising the other handling characteristics too much. If the tyres are biting properly and then let go suddenly somewhere, then the load on that tyre needs to be reduced in some way (lower ride height/softer roll bar/softer springs/less camber. If the tyres feel as though they aren't biting, then do the opposite.
@bone_tone I was also accused, and when I said I didn't, the user then tried to redeem himself. There are also some nasty SRF users out there, there was a guy the other night who deliberately bashed others in order to trigger the collision penalty at the start.,He hated me beating him with no assists apart from ABS, with him taking stupid speed on the way into corners.
- 355
- Morocco
- MwerteMP4-24
@bone_tone
Yesterday i had the same problem ... no grip at all ...i barely manage 2.06 ..... second turn u re icesking and barely keepin it from the wall and i did stick in the lobby for more infos and i notice the bug when someone always win the race with a +1 LAP ... maybe its nothing but many players came and go and no change no grip
Yesterday i had the same problem ... no grip at all ...i barely manage 2.06 ..... second turn u re icesking and barely keepin it from the wall and i did stick in the lobby for more infos and i notice the bug when someone always win the race with a +1 LAP ... maybe its nothing but many players came and go and no change no grip
- 2,017
- Ludwigsburg
- RocketJoe1-61
- 355
- Morocco
- MwerteMP4-24
Really?! everytime a 240sec wait is a sign of bug ... i didnt see ur msg and i didnt know that .... ty for the info
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- 1,800
- United Kingdom
- bone_tone
Those +1 Lap races seem to be the worst for the grip change. When it's one of those QMs with a boost setting, then sometimes it gives the person showing as one lap behind permanent boost, meaning they run much faster than everyone else.
Saw that you and @ROCKET JOE were online last night, and with @coryclifford being around too looks like we nearly managed a room full of GTP members!
Would be a good room wouldn't it - bit competitive though, just have to hope we didn't all fall out!
- 1,800
- United Kingdom
- bone_tone
Well, that is a short essay and I'm still speculating some of it, but I've tried to clear things up because there is a lot of contradiction. Years of racing RC cars was a good starting point for the frustration, plus a couple of really good books has made GT a bit easier. PD have simplified things in their physics with no tyre deformation and either ignoring camber change or ensuring that the wheels are always upright in the corner.
The key thing is to think about what all four wheels are doing throughout the lap and to think about where the less than ideal characteristics are occurring exactly and to think about what horizontal and vertical loads those wheel(s) are being subjected to at that given moment combined with that exact driver input. It's a case of making the right adjustment to either increase the load or reduce it without compromising the other handling characteristics too much. If the tyres are biting properly and then let go suddenly somewhere, then the load on that tyre needs to be reduced in some way (lower ride height/softer roll bar/softer springs/less camber. If the tyres feel as though they aren't biting, then do the opposite.
@bone_tone I was also accused, and when I said I didn't, the user then tried to redeem himself. There are also some nasty SRF users out there, there was a guy the other night who deliberately bashed others in order to trigger the collision penalty at the start.,He hated me beating him with no assists apart from ABS, with him taking stupid speed on the way into corners.[/QUOTE]
I told the accuser to have a look at GTPlanet, to see how anti-SRF we all were!
- 2,017
- Ludwigsburg
- RocketJoe1-61
@coryclifford
Like I mentioned some hours ago I'm getting into your Megane tune ( I'm not very quick at learning a car ) and it will take some more laps to reach my end speedwise. I'm sry somehow that I can not give you such a detailed and specific report like e. g. @mirial did with his write on suspension but only a 'feel' and some impressions.
First thought was it's slow and it's wobbly like @StirlingMoose called it. I think the former derives from the other 'cos your soft suspension takes out a lot of the drama the car had before which generated a ( false ) sense of speed. It's definitely a big step forward to keep the tires grippy.
I tried to find the driving style that is best for the tune ( floating is a good advice ) and I had to adapt quite a bit.
A few laps later though I actually had the feeling that I can trust this car to take me round the track. You gotta be calm and smooth and you get faster and faster. Btw having watched you drive in replays from time to time
( always thought that nothing in this world can get this guy excited or upset when racing ) I'm sure the tune should fit you perfectly ... no wonder - you made it :-)
Only minus I found is that the car is a bit sluggish when you have to make a superquick move like avoiding another car which makes it harder ( and dangerous sometimes ) to recover.
There's way more potential in this tune than I could ever use 'cos I'm just not good enough, but I had a couple of moments when I could feel what is possible. I'll try to improve on that ... and anyway it's been a good experience, so tnx very much.
👍 👍 👍
Like I mentioned some hours ago I'm getting into your Megane tune ( I'm not very quick at learning a car ) and it will take some more laps to reach my end speedwise. I'm sry somehow that I can not give you such a detailed and specific report like e. g. @mirial did with his write on suspension but only a 'feel' and some impressions.
First thought was it's slow and it's wobbly like @StirlingMoose called it. I think the former derives from the other 'cos your soft suspension takes out a lot of the drama the car had before which generated a ( false ) sense of speed. It's definitely a big step forward to keep the tires grippy.
I tried to find the driving style that is best for the tune ( floating is a good advice ) and I had to adapt quite a bit.
A few laps later though I actually had the feeling that I can trust this car to take me round the track. You gotta be calm and smooth and you get faster and faster. Btw having watched you drive in replays from time to time
( always thought that nothing in this world can get this guy excited or upset when racing ) I'm sure the tune should fit you perfectly ... no wonder - you made it :-)
Only minus I found is that the car is a bit sluggish when you have to make a superquick move like avoiding another car which makes it harder ( and dangerous sometimes ) to recover.
There's way more potential in this tune than I could ever use 'cos I'm just not good enough, but I had a couple of moments when I could feel what is possible. I'll try to improve on that ... and anyway it's been a good experience, so tnx very much.
👍 👍 👍
- 626
- Northern Ireland
- GTRP_mirial
@ROCKET JOE
The more forgiving setup you describe probably works well here in comparison to mine because almost all the key corners have heavy braking before them and are short in length, so the extra momentum plus possibly a bit of understeer tends to deliver the ideal balance and good weight transfer to get the grip and for long enough. A softer more forgiving car might not so good at a track like trial mountain because all the corners there are mostly long and medium speed. I tried the car soft, but probably didn't force it enough at Bathurst.
It's a case of each driver finding what suits him best. I've shared great setups that have worked for me in the past with aliens and they hated them and were slower.
The more forgiving setup you describe probably works well here in comparison to mine because almost all the key corners have heavy braking before them and are short in length, so the extra momentum plus possibly a bit of understeer tends to deliver the ideal balance and good weight transfer to get the grip and for long enough. A softer more forgiving car might not so good at a track like trial mountain because all the corners there are mostly long and medium speed. I tried the car soft, but probably didn't force it enough at Bathurst.
It's a case of each driver finding what suits him best. I've shared great setups that have worked for me in the past with aliens and they hated them and were slower.
- 2,017
- Ludwigsburg
- RocketJoe1-61
- 5,684
- Ohio
I want to reply to the comments above, but first I wanted to share this…
- 626
- Northern Ireland
- GTRP_mirial
I will try yours as well for sure - and I'm looking forward to it
Ride height corrected to 70 70. Maybe change the front to 65 to give it some understeer.
- 1,510
- United Kingdom
- StirlingMoose
At least he's honest about it. I remember him now. From my first outing at Bathurst.
- 3,053
- England
- kilesa4568
All the people who've ever raced you will read that comment and say "yeah, right. Pull the other one." I hope that one day, I'll reach your "not good enough" standard.
As for the accuser last night, I remember racing them in the 458's at Tokyo R246 and shaking my head at their 3 second per lap speed difference. It wasn't the first time I'd seen them using it either. Figured it was a waste of time sending them a reply.
Now that's funny. Mega troll trying to take the moral high ground.
- 1,800
- United Kingdom
- bone_tone
What a laugh!
Something going wrong on the forum, I tried to reply to a post earlier, and now appear to be the author?
- 2,017
- Ludwigsburg
- RocketJoe1-61
Got the exact answer a long time ago. Great that you post this here though.
Sadly, exploiting the game is not 'moral low ground', it's smart
!Says who : Mr. Understatement in person
?
- 1,800
- United Kingdom
- bone_tone
This from the guy that ran a 6:19 at Bathurst last night.....All the people who've ever raced you will read that comment and say "yeah, right. Pull the other one." I hope that one day, I'll reach your "not good enough" standard.
- 3,053
- England
- kilesa4568
PB after PB last night with how hard you lot were pushing. Nearly got an 18 later on and messed up a probable high 17 by the end of a 3 hour session. 7.4 first lap...I've no idea where that came from.
You definitely took me out of the comfort zone that I've had all week and I thank you for it.👍
You definitely took me out of the comfort zone that I've had all week and I thank you for it.👍
- 2,017
- Ludwigsburg
- RocketJoe1-61
- 1,800
- United Kingdom
- bone_tone
Mutual - you helped me too, ran my PB lap, and PB race time
- 2,017
- Ludwigsburg
- RocketJoe1-61
Funny night ! Me and my son shared our accounts rotating from race to race racing Bathurst and Monaco .
He did know none of the tracks, he even stopped once to ask a steward for the way.
I don't want to know what the opponent drivers must have been thinking !
.He did know none of the tracks, he even stopped once to ask a steward for the way
.I don't want to know what the opponent drivers must have been thinking
!
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