FITT challenge. Viper Strike Closed Congratulations to Lap; Lionheart2113 & Drivers choice Xande1959

  • Thread starter Otaliema
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You'd normally start tuning a car at 0.00/0.00 to get an honest feel for the car, right? Then from there you'd start to adjust your springs/dampers etc, to find the best balance, you tend to adjust one thing at a time to isolate the effects.
The problem with adjusting camber at the moment is that it is changing two things at once which makes it hard to pin down actual improvements. If I can find the relative changes (ie. If you were to add X front camber you would need to set Y toe) then it would be much easier to zero in where the improvements lie.

Again, ignoring all real world descriptions of what is happening in GT6. I move the lever one way and something happens, then the other way and the opposite happens. If the camber lever will not work properly without also moving another, then I'm fine with that. But, which lever (toe) and how far paired with different camber settings?

I actually have been testing starting with the default camber settings. I don't want to start with zero and assume its best. I get everything out of the car using the default camber numbers then start trying many camber settings. Should I be approaching it differently and tuning camber first?
 
Again, ignoring all real world descriptions of what is happening in GT6. I move the lever one way and something happens, then the other way and the opposite happens. If the camber lever will not work properly without also moving another, then I'm fine with that.
That is exactly what I was thinking. I approach tuning like the volume knob on the radio. Do I know the real world answers of what happens inside the radio to allow the volume to be adjusted??? Not a clue, but I do know that turning the knob to the left turns it down and turn it to the right; it gets louder! I would love to learn real world applications, but to be honest, it's just a video game and I think PD misses the mark on these real world physics. I have yet to hear any NASCAR racers scream that their cars get aero tight when behind another car, even though in "real world" we all know this happens.
 
Again, ignoring all real world descriptions of what is happening in GT6. I move the lever one way and something happens, then the other way and the opposite happens. If the camber lever will not work properly without also moving another, then I'm fine with that. But, which lever (toe) and how far paired with different camber settings?

I actually have been testing starting with the default camber settings. I don't want to start with zero and assume its best. I get everything out of the car using the default camber numbers then start trying many camber settings. Should I be approaching it differently and tuning camber first?
The default camber settings, much like the default toe settings are very stable and a little bit too safe to be fast. They also run more rear camber than front which is done to enhance stability at the cost of rotation. I wouldn't keep them in that ratio unless the car had serious stability issues.


The closest I can give to a definitive answer in terms of lever moving is:-

(Sports tyres)
1.0 Front Camber = -0.18 Front Toe (approx.)
2.0 Front Camber = -0.40 Front Toe (approx.)

This is the amount of toe I would set to neutralise the handling characteristics while retaining the extra mid corner grip gained by adding camber. This basically returns it to 0.00 in terms of feel, you can further enhance the characteristics by adjusting the toe values as normal.
Using the values above as reference, you can now test different camber values more quickly and easily when trying to make it suit your car and track. If for instance I decided to set 1.5 degrees on the front axle I could look at these figures and estimate that I will need to run about -0.30 toe to retain the same overall feeling. The process of finding the ideal angles is now just trial and error as it would be with any other settings.
 
Again, ignoring all real world descriptions of what is happening in GT6. I move the lever one way and something happens, then the other way and the opposite happens. If the camber lever will not work properly without also moving another, then I'm fine with that. But, which lever (toe) and how far paired with different camber settings?

I actually have been testing starting with the default camber settings. I don't want to start with zero and assume its best. I get everything out of the car using the default camber numbers then start trying many camber settings. Should I be approaching it differently and tuning camber first?
I would either stick with starting at 0.0 or 1.0/0.5.....avoid default camber setting.
 
I would either stick with starting at 0.0 or 1.0/0.5.....avoid default camber setting.

This. I always start with zeroed out settings as far as toe and camber are concerned. In my opinion, using PD's default settings is the worst thing you can do. With RH, I start with that in the middle of the slider, same with dampers and ARB. SR I'll start either 1/4, 1/2, or 3/4 of the way from the half way mark, depending on the car and track.
 
I should probably also mention my driving style. I do most of my braking in a straight line, I am not a trail braker by any stretch of the imagination. @Motor City Hami was one of the first ones I saw who hit on this and wrote about it way back in GT5 when GT Academy '13 came out with "GT6 physics". And he makes a clearer reference to it in his GT6 tuning guide about braking characteristics. Im only guessing here but it would seem that if trail braking is your style, you wouldn't see much gain with camber.

That's an interesting notion. I tend to trail brake and I've not been able to create or find a tune that is quicker with camber since the fix.

I tried your Viper at the weekend and drove it 8 laps before removing the camber. Drove three laps without camber and improved on the best lap with each one, .9s faster on third lap.

I found turn in better without camber however the tyres were more prone to lighting up under load at the bottom of the hill after the tunnel but still carried more speed through that turn. Went back to your tune and threw it around as hard as I could. Needless to say I trashed it more often than not but did luck out on one lap to finish within a couple tenths of the camber-less best.

Out of interest, do any of you guys ever remove the camber from your tune to see how it compares?
 
That's an interesting notion. I tend to trail brake and I've not been able to create or find a tune that is quicker with camber since the fix.

I tried your Viper at the weekend and drove it 8 laps before removing the camber. Drove three laps without camber and improved on the best lap with each one, .9s faster on third lap.

I found turn in better without camber however the tyres were more prone to lighting up under load at the bottom of the hill after the tunnel but still carried more speed through that turn. Went back to your tune and threw it around as hard as I could. Needless to say I trashed it more often than not but did luck out on one lap to finish within a couple tenths of the camber-less best.

Out of interest, do any of you guys ever remove the camber from your tune to see how it compares?
I'd be willing to run the top 5 again at 0 camber and compare my lap times from my previous test. Any trail brakers wanna run with/without as well?
I've already got a permanent home in my garage for @xande1959 and @oppositelock Vipers!
 
That's an interesting notion. I tend to trail brake and I've not been able to create or find a tune that is quicker with camber since the fix.

I tried your Viper at the weekend and drove it 8 laps before removing the camber. Drove three laps without camber and improved on the best lap with each one, .9s faster on third lap.

I found turn in better without camber however the tyres were more prone to lighting up under load at the bottom of the hill after the tunnel but still carried more speed through that turn. Went back to your tune and threw it around as hard as I could. Needless to say I trashed it more often than not but did luck out on one lap to finish within a couple tenths of the camber-less best.

Out of interest, do any of you guys ever remove the camber from your tune to see how it compares?

Yes, every time. When I test and tune, no stone gets left unturned. That's why it takes me forever to publish a tune.
 
I'd be willing to run the top 5 again at 0 camber and compare my lap times from my previous test. Any trail brakers wanna run with/without as well?
I've already got a permanent home in my garage for @xande1959 and @oppositelock Vipers!
we can't have a good test with out more than one data point i'm a straight line beaker as well I'll re do the top 5 @ 0 camber with ya.

Yes, every time. When I test and tune, no stone gets left unturned. That's why it takes me forever to publish a tune.
Hence why we want you in one of these FITT comps :) your tunes rock, roll and kick 🤬 and take names
 
-


The 1960 Milliken MX1 Camber Car showing a large negative camber.

-programs already exist today for you to calculate the camber but does not always work, but gives us a sketch of what we need.:cheers:

Interesting car. With motorcycle tyre profiles it cannot lay its tread flat ever, so any performance gain must be down to camber thrust.
 
OK my testing is done. I will also include a second test for @DaBomm4 car because I accidentally ran it with flat floor and the difference between the two was unimaginably different. It will be in red at the end.

I did my testing a bit different then everyone else but still had a minimum of 10 laps for each car. I would give my self 2 laps at about 70% to get a feel for the car and then set a fast lap. I then game myself 5 laps to beat my best time. If I beat it then the 5 lap count to beat it would start over. If I couldn't best that time in 5 laps then the test was over. most cars had about 20 laps in before I couldn't beat myself.

So here they are in no particular order because I separated them by parts for the sake of cost.

@Otaliema 1:25.094 DC-6

- Everything was opposite from what I expected with a powerful car. When I expected grip it would push wide and when I expected wheelspin it would grab and go.
- I could have gotten another 1/2 a second or more out of the car but it could have come 5 laps later or 100 laps later. I never quite had this car figured out.
- I expect this time was due to the driver and not the tune. This is because it was faster than cars that I liked better.

@Bowtie-muscle 1:24.863 DC-8

- the car was very predictable overall and had very useable gearing. 3rd,4th,and 5th are the meat for the track and they were nearly perfectly matched to the power. I had a bit of exit understeer and had to wait a bit longer than i wanted to get back on the gas. Both of those (small) gripes probably would have disappeared with a higher accell setting.
- the car felt great and behaved as expected.

@brian wolf 1:24.542 DC-9 *tied for best DC*

- Most maneuverable car besides lionhearts's car. great turn in and did not push wide mid corner.
- Absolute best 3rd gear in the test. would jump out of the slower corners without much wheelspin and the wheelspin you did get was perfectly useable so the was no lifting to correct. JUST ALL GAS BABY ! lol
- this car made want a photographer following me around to catch all my sweet drifts, and it had a fast lap to boot.

@xande1959 1:24.425 DC-7.5 *fastest lap*

- despite being my fastest lap, this was not my favorite car. I constantly got caught wanting to be between 3rd and 4th gear. I had to exit too may turns near the top of 3rd which had me fighting wheelspin a lot.
- to counter this I would exit in a higher gear for the turn and then down shift once straighter. I had to basically shift twice as much per lap than any other car but this was the secret to getting this car around quickly.
- Once I started using my shifting technique, the car had great on throttle grip that got it around the track faster than anyone else.
- My only other gripe was that if you got this car unsettled it was a roll of the dice as to which way it would go. sometimes it would regain grip and shoot across the track and sometimes it would continue it's slide as expected.

@oppositelock 1:24.895 DC-8.5

- This car was a bit frustrating for me. It felt really good but was the only one that spent time on it's roof. lol. When it went bad in this car it did it better than any other car.:cheers:
- It felt similar to bowtie's car in that I liked the way it drove and got a decent lap out of it. just couldn't make any mistakes.

@Motor City Hami 1:24.620 DC-8

- This was another frustrating car for me. if you lifted mid turn, that turn was ruined. and if you did it going into a straight, the whole lap was ruined.
- I sometimes got some surprise grip loss on the sweeper after the jump. I could never figure that out.
- This car loved trail braking, once I was either always on the gas or the brake it really woke up. When I figured it out it would take every corner faster than every other car. This was hands down the fastest car in the test if you nailed every corner...but I couldn't
- I left possibly a whole second out on the track but could not get that perfect lap together. It was the fastest car but also the hardest to use.

@DaBomm4 1:26.412 DC-7

- the soft compression made bumps and curbs feel like a trampoline at times. it would launch itself which made me have to slow down too much around the less smooth parts.
- It really rewarded throttle control when coming out of a corner but you had to be perfect with it or it would start smoking and you were a gonner :)
- I felt like I had to brake longer than in other cars. I feel like I could have gotten more out of this car but just needed more time.

@Ridox2JZGTE 1:26.341 DC-8

- was one of the best handling cars off throttle with some understeer on braking but went away as soon as I lifted.
- with comparable power this really would have been a contender. Nice car man.

@Lionheart2113 1:24.580 DC-9 *tied for highest DC*

- the gearbox definitely favored an automatic transmission. longer gears would have helped a lot in an already fast car because it could hold 4th gear in a burnout lol.
- Despite having to wrestle for grip in 3rd and 4th it had the best handling and maneuverability in the group.

@shaunm80 1:25.418 DC-7

- low LSD setting had me roasting the inside tire. Kept the car on the line but had me waiting until i was straight or using a higher gear to find grip.
- despite having a stiffer setup than most cars, i liked it because it was very balanced over the bumps. there were no surprises while driving this car.

@krenkme 1:25.495 DC-8.5

- feels just a couple of tweaks away from greatness. it was the happiest car on throtthle as long as you stayed away from curbs.
- great gearing made throttle steer fun and made me look a lot better than i am :)
- The car as a whole was a bit too soft and jumped over bumps and curbs like a truck.
- still a really fun drive though.

@MrGrado 1:26.270 DC-6

- i can kinda hear my mom saying that if you don't have anything nice to say then don't say anything at all. So i'm not trying to sound mean but i am just relaying the notes I wrote down while driving it.
- I just couldn't figure out how to drive it. I could get through some turns fast but could figure out how or why to try and replicate it through other turns.
- it did not like trail braking or braking at all actually. When I hit the brakes it would snap back to straight and would not turn at all.

@DolHaus 1:25.164 DC-8

- If i went into a turn even slightly too fast it would dive in and then push out. I really had to nail my entry.
- really fighting wheelspin in 3rd and 4th gear had me hesitating to get on the gas fully. I think a NA build would have helped a lot. 675ftlb of TQ vs. 834ftlb with the supercharger.
- Otherwise a predictable and neutral handling car.

@Gino Caberlin 1:24.761 DC-8.5

- Very predictable and safe.
- lower LSD settings than I would have preferred but that is what contributed to the safe feel of the car.
- the only car that I felt I was racing myself the whole time (that's a compliment)
- not the fastest car but it's the one I would take to a race due to it's quickness but more due to it's predictability. this car never did anything unexpected.

@787bcgr 1:25.589 DC-7

- always wanted to drift (fun but bad for lap times)
- even the smallest bumps would upset the chassis, which would lead to the drifting
- very unforgiving of sloppy throttle control. Mastering this car would make you a much better driver.
- nothing bad about this car really, it just would keep you on your toes.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I think the aero type C was so incredibly horrible looking that the cars that used it were slower because I couldn't concentrate...sorry guys :)

This was my first time testing. It was long but fun and I will definitely be doing it again. I will be happy to re-drive anyones car and give more detailed input if they request it. just pm me. Congrats guys !
 
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OK my testing is done. I will also include a second test for @DaBomm4 car because I accidentally ran it with flat floor and the difference between the two was unimaginably different. It will be in red at the end.

I did my testing a bit different then everyone else but still had a minimum of 10 laps for each car. I would give my self 2 laps at about 70% to get a feel for the car and then set a fast lap. I then game myself 5 laps to beat my best time. If I beat it then the 5 lap count to beat it would start over. If I couldn't best that time in 5 laps then the test was over. most cars had about 20 laps in before I couldn't beat myself.

So here they are in no particular order because I separated them by parts for the sake of cost.

@Otaliema 1:25.094 DC-6

- Everything was opposite from what I expected with a powerful car. When I expected grip it would push wide and when I expected wheelspin it would grab and go.

- I could have gotten another 1/2 a second or more out of the car but it could have come 5 laps later or 100 laps later. I never quite had this car figured out.

- I expect this time was due to the driver and not the tune. This is because it was faster than cars that I liked better.

@Bowtie-muscle 1:24.863 DC-8

- the car was very predictable overall and had very useable gearing. 3rd,4th,and 5th are the meat for the track and they were nearly perfectly matched to the power. I had a bit of exit understeer and had to wait a bit longer than i wanted to get back on the gas. Both of those (small) gripes probably would have disappeared with a higher accell setting.

- the car felt great and behaved as expected.

@brian wolf 1:24.542 DC-9 *tied for best DC*

- Most maneuverable car besides lionhearts's car. great turn in and did not push wide mid corner.

- Absolute best 3rd gear in the test. would jump out of the slower corners without much wheelspin and the wheelspin you did get was perfectly useable so the was no lifting to correct. JUST ALL GAS BABY ! lol

- this car made want a photographer following me around to catch all my sweet drifts, and it had a fast lap to boot.

@xande1959 1:24.425 DC-7.5 *fastest lap*

- despite being my fastest lap, this was not my favorite car. I constantly got caught wanting to be between 3rd and 4th gear. I had to exit too may turns near the top of 3rd which had me fighting wheelspin a lot.

- to counter this I would exit in a higher gear for the turn and then down shift once straighter. I had to basically shift twice as much per lap than any other car but this was the secret to getting this car around quickly.

- Once I started using my shifting technique, the car had great on throttle grip that got it around the track faster than anyone else.

- My only other gripe was that if you got this car unsettled it was a roll of the dice as to which way it would go. sometimes it would regain grip and shoot across the track and sometimes it would continue it's slide as expected.

@oppositelock 1:24.895 DC-8.5

- This car was a bit frustrating for me. It felt really good but was the only one that spent time on it's roof. lol. When it went bad in this car it did it better than any other car.:cheers:

- It felt similar to bowtie's car in that I liked the way it drove and got a decent lap out of it. just couldn't make any mistakes.

@Motor City Hami 1:24.620 DC-8

- This was another frustrating car for me. if you lifted mid turn, that turn was ruined. and if you did it going into a straight, the whole lap was ruined.

- I sometimes got some surprise grip loss on the sweeper after the jump. I could never figure that out.

- This car loved trail braking, once I was either always on the gas or the brake it really woke up. When I figured it out it would take every corner faster than every other car. This was hands down the fastest car in the test if you nailed every corner...but I couldn't

- I left possibly a whole second out on the track but could not get that perfect lap together. It was the fastest car but also the hardest to use.

@DaBomm4 1:26.412 DC-7

- the soft compression made bumps and curbs feel like a trampoline at times. it would launch itself which made me have to slow down too much around the less smooth parts.

- It really rewarded throttle control when coming out of a corner but you had to be perfect with it or it would start smoking and you were a gonner :)

- I felt like I had to brake longer than in other cars. I feel like I could have gotten more out of this car but just needed more time.

@Ridox2JZGTE 1:26.341 DC-8

- was one of the best handling cars off throttle with some understeer on braking but went away as soon as I lifted.

- with comparable power this really would have been a contender. Nice car man.

@Lionheart2113 1:24.580 DC-9 *tied for highest DC*

- the gearbox definitely favored an automatic transmission. longer gears would have helped a lot in an already fast car because it could hold 4th gear in a burnout lol.

- Despite having to wrestle for grip in 3rd and 4th it had the best handling and maneuverability in the group.
Well done, great review:tup:, thank you Sir. You say exit understeer, most others have said exit over steer, but I'll take it.:dopey:....but there should be a few more, no?
 
Dabomm4 1:24.252 DC-9.5

- Very surprised at time for first lap. 1:24.5xx like it was nothing.
- super easy to drive, longer gears really helped.
- slightly stiffer ext., ARB's, and a higher accell diff setting would have been a DC-10 and even faster lap.
- the accidental flat floors really transformed this car. I felt really bad after taking it off and not doing very well.
 
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@ImToLegitToQuit
. I congratulate the back too quickly by driving it to your style, I really felt the same a few turns. my G27 steering wheel with this problem in the brake pedals at the time that it speeds then this hindering me in some tunings. thank you for driving sta monster.:cheers::bowdown:👍:gtpflag:
 
@DaBomm4 1:26.412 DC-7

- the soft compression made bumps and curbs feel like a trampoline at times. it would launch itself which made me have to slow down too much around the less smooth parts.
- It really rewarded throttle control when coming out of a corner but you had to be perfect with it or it would start smoking and you were a gonner :)
- I felt like I had to brake longer than in other cars. I feel like I could have gotten more out of this car but just needed more time.
Dabomm4 1:24.252 DC-9.5

- Very surprised at time for first lap. 1:24.5xx like it was nothing.
- super easy to drive, longer gears really helped.
- slightly stiffer ext., ARB's, and a higher accell diff setting would have been a DC-10 and even faster lap.
- the accidental flat floors really transformed this car. I felt really bad after taking it off and not doing very well.
Firstly, :bowdown::bowdown::bowdown::bowdown:.

I tried the Flat Floors but I could not get a good enough feel out of the car compared to without. It is probably what is hurting my times this round. Also, the throttle control issue you stated is probably due to tuning on a G27 with great throttle control response, so I didn't think about the change. Great review. :cheers:
 
@Motor City Hami 1:24.620 DC-8

- This was another frustrating car for me. if you lifted mid turn, that turn was ruined. and if you did it going into a straight, the whole lap was ruined.
- I sometimes got some surprise grip loss on the sweeper after the jump. I could never figure that out.
- This car loved trail braking, once I was either always on the gas or the brake it really woke up. When I figured it out it would take every corner faster than every other car. This was hands down the fastest car in the test if you nailed every corner...but I couldn't
- I left possibly a whole second out on the track but could not get that perfect lap together. It was the fastest car but also the hardest to use.

Great review. In racing school they taught us that cars like input. To be the fastest, you need to always be on the brakes or on the gas, rarely coasting or you are leaving lap time on the table. In that last switchback before the start finish, I was able to trail brake to scrub some speed and aim the car, then back to full throttle before touching the first corner apex. That is how I was taught to drive. It shows in how aggressive I like my cars.

Thanks for testing.
 
Great review. In racing school they taught us that cars like input. To be the fastest, you need to always be on the brakes or on the gas, rarely coasting or you are leaving lap time on the table. In that last switchback before the start finish, I was able to trail brake to scrub some speed and aim the car, then back to full throttle before touching the first corner apex. That is how I was taught to drive. It shows in how aggressive I like my cars.

Thanks for testing.
It was incredibly good and fun when you got it right. My favorite corner was after the 1st tunnel you have the slow right and then the uphill chicane before the next tunnel. I'd take the left full throttle and then hard brake to change direction and full throttle through the whole uphill right hander. The first time I did it I had to pause it to just smile and then at the checkpoint on the straight I was 8 tenths ahead of my ghost. I will be exploring your car for a while. :)
 
USER=231817]@Lionheart2113[/USER] 1:24.580 DC-9 *tied for highest DC*

- the gearbox definitely favored an automatic transmission. longer gears would have helped a lot in an already fast car because it could hold 4th gear in a burnout lol.
- Despite having to wrestle for grip in 3rd and 4th it had the best handling and maneuverability in the group.

This was my first time testing. It was long but fun and I will definitely be doing it again. I will be happy to re-drive anyones car and give more detailed input if they request it. just pm me. Congrats guys !
Thank you for the review and congrats on your first time testing. Glad to have ya!👍 Great job in all of your write ups and there are some pretty quick times in there as well!:cheers:
 
In terms of tuner and driver turn out this one was great. 14 tuners and 6 test drivers.
if you figure that each car got an average of 11 laps during testing, we put down 924 laps for this challenge just for the testing.
Total distance 2,282.28 miles / 3,677.52 km that's a lot of driving :lol:
 
In terms of tuner and driver turn out this one was great. 14 tuners and 6 test drivers.
if you figure that each car got an average of 11 laps during testing, we put down 924 laps for this challenge just for the testing.
Total distance 2,282.28 miles / 3,677.52 km that's a lot of driving :lol:

Great job hosting. I wonder how many miles we all tested? Maybe an average of five hours per tester, two minute lap time would account for time in load and tuning screens. 14 tuners x 5 hours each = 70 hours of tuning or 4,200 minutes. 4,200 minutes divided by 2 minutes = 2,100 laps. 2,100 laps times 2.47 miles per lap = 5,187 miles of tuning?

@xande1959 @oppositelock @Lionheart2113 is this a personal best for all three of you? Is this your highest placement?
 
Great job hosting. I wonder how many miles we all tested? Maybe an average of five hours per tester, two minute lap time would account for time in load and tuning screens. 14 tuners x 5 hours each = 70 hours of tuning or 4,200 minutes. 4,200 minutes divided by 2 minutes = 2,100 laps. 2,100 laps times 2.47 miles per lap = 5,187 miles of tuning?

@xande1959 @oppositelock @Lionheart2113 is this a personal best for all three of you? Is this your highest placement?
It my head hurt more than my screaming 4 y/o trying to think about that. :lol:
I think I over tuned my car. I put over 2k km on it during the tuning phase. and it showed in the results. I was too familiar with the car and could push it harder than a new driver in it.

@Motor City Hami @Bowtie-muscle @DolHaus thank you. It was fun. as I said a biit a go compaired to the STi vs Evo challenge hosting this one was a breeze.
I updated the master blank scoring sheet to support 20 tuners and 10 testers so future challenges I shouldn't run into space issues i hope :lol:
 
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