FITT challenge. Viper Strike Closed Congratulations to Lap; Lionheart2113 & Drivers choice Xande1959

[Lionheart2113]

Yeah! He doesn`t like me doing donuts in the carpark!

Edit : Just got it!

I wasn't going to say anything!
And thank you for testing and the review. I'll def check out your suggestion about the 3rd gear. I'm in the middle of my transmission setups and learning all the time. Thanks again old boy!

 

[brian wolf]

I wasn't going to say anything!
And thank you for testing and the review. I'll def check out your suggestion about the 3rd gear. I'm in the middle of my transmission setups and learning all the time. Thanks again old boy!

I don`t think the gearbox needs much. Maybe just take the FG 20 clicks to the left. Of course, it might just be my lead foot!

 

[Motor City Hami]

So are there any thoughts about camber after seeing and driving the top tunes? The top three cars right now all used some camber. One used camber to reduce rear grip and two used small amounts around 1.0 front and 0.5 rear.

I thought that camber still reduces grip but much less with the 1.09 update. So, would @Lionheart2113 and @oppositelock be even faster with 0 front camber or did the 1.0 front add something else to their tunes?

 

[DaBomm4]

Well, I was really looking forward to testing all these cars but my PS3 is on the fritz right now and I don't have the time to fix it and then test. This would have been a fun testing group also. If I get enough time and will to come back and test these just to give feedback on them I will.

 

[Otaliema]

@brian wolf ill get your results loaded in the morning thank you for the feedback on the tune, I just missed the mark this time :bow: to @Lionheart2113 and @oppositelock for getting it just right.
@Motor City Hami i think the front camber gave the tunes the needed mid corner grip to keep the car rotating around the turn.
I'll take me for a spin with out camber on the front see what they do. I noticed something when tuning, at least for me, that removing camber reduced my time a bit but made the car more unstable than it was with camber on the car.

 

[GTP_CargoRatt]

Great job guys as always. Really enjoy following this thread as well as the other F.I.T.T. related threads. You guys are really to be commended, the true heart and soul of the tuning community.

 

[Lionheart2113]

So are there any thoughts about camber after seeing and driving the top tunes? The top three cars right now all used some camber. One used camber to reduce rear grip and two used small amounts around 1.0 front and 0.5 rear.

I thought that camber still reduces grip but much less with the 1.09 update. So, would @Lionheart2113 and @oppositelock be even faster with 0 front camber or did the 1.0 front add something else to their tunes?

I would suspect that on my tune, it would get a little more squirrelly on corner entry and thru mid corner. From my notes on camber...

Increase Front - Helps dive into corners with a little more control. (Increase understeer)
Too Much - Allows you to carry too much speed (feeling like superman) into corner and start scrubbing it off trying to get to apex slowing you down. (Wider arc into corner if track allows)

Increase Rear - More stability after initial turn in thru mid corner. (Increase understeer)
Too Much - Have to wait too long at apex to pick up throttle. If you hit throttle at normal apex this will cause more speed coming out of the turn causing a tight condition on exit.

Needs to work hand in hand with TOE.

Now these are just my notes, right or wrong, I'm guessing it depends on your driving style. Even for me, there is a very small sweet spot IF I decide to use camber.

 

[GTP_CargoRatt]

I would suspect that on my tune, it would get a little more squirrelly on corner entry and thru mid corner. From my notes on camber...

Increase Front - Helps dive into corners with a little more control. (Increase understeer)
Too Much - Allows you to carry too much speed (feeling like superman) into corner and start scrubbing it off trying to get to apex slowing you down. (Wider arc into corner if track allows)

Increase Rear - More stability after initial turn in thru mid corner. (Increase understeer)
Too Much - Have to wait too long at apex to pick up throttle. If you hit throttle at normal apex this will cause more speed coming out of the turn causing a tight condition on exit.

Needs to work hand in hand with TOE.

Now these are just my notes, right or wrong, I'm guessing it depends on your driving style. Even for me, there is a very small sweet spot IF I decide to use camber.

Bang on my friend. 👍 That's the same exact thing I said in another thread when trying to explain my use of camber. And yes, the sweet spot for camber does seem very small from everything I've seen so far. Two or three clicks in either direction of the sweet spot and grip deteriorates very rapidly. I think that may be a main reason why some people are still insisting that no camber still yields the fastest lap times. They may not be taking the time to find the sweet spot and therefore just giving up and going back to the no camber and calling it good.

 

[Lionheart2113]

Bang on my friend. 👍 That's the same exact thing I said in another thread when trying to explain my use of camber. And yes, the sweet spot for camber does seem very small from everything I've seen so far. Two or three clicks in either direction of the sweet spot and grip deteriorates very rapidly. I think that may be a main reason why some people are still insisting that no camber still yields the fastest lap times. They may not be taking the time to find the sweet spot and therefore just giving up and going back to the no camber and calling it good.

I should probably also mention my driving style. I do most of my braking in a straight line, I am not a trail braker by any stretch of the imagination. @Motor City Hami was one of the first ones I saw who hit on this and wrote about it way back in GT5 when GT Academy '13 came out with "GT6 physics". And he makes a clearer reference to it in his GT6 tuning guide about braking characteristics. Im only guessing here but it would seem that if trail braking is your style, you wouldn't see much gain with camber. Like mentioned, I only see a very small window of opportunity with camber with my style, but I would bet that trail brakers would see less if any gain at all, hence saying that camber is still "broken". I'm not here to start up the discussion again because my head hurts just thinking about it! @GTP_CargoRatt can you give the link to that post of yours about your thoughts on camber, if it's not too much trouble?

 

[Motor City Hami]

@Lionheart2113 and @GTP_CargoRatt I am still a bit undecided on camber. Interesting thought about trail braking. Camber just doesn't seem to do much. So if it is such an insignificant part of the tune, it's probably not worth arguing about too much. I am tuning an NSX right now and everything from zero to 1.0 feels the same and runs almost identical lap times.

 

[DolHaus]

@Lionheart2113 and @GTP_CargoRatt I am still a bit undecided on camber. Interesting thought about trail braking. Camber just doesn't seem to do much. So if it is such an insignificant part of the tune, it's probably not worth arguing about too much. I am tuning an NSX right now and everything from zero to 1.0 feels the same and runs almost identical lap times.

Camber by itself doesn't really do anything useful, it needs to be used in conjunction with toe settings to get improvements. The improvements are small but you can really change the characteristics of a car by balancing the front/rear camber and toe.
Once you get it in the right range in terms of angle you can feel the benefits but the range is quite tight. You really have to concentrate on it though as the effects are very subtle, you need to do a lot of testing to feel when the angles are working correctly. You can feel the car gaining and loosing grip as the load changes through a corner, the idea is to keep making small adjustments until it is gaining more than it is losing.
Toe settings are definitely key, running camber without adjusting toe is like running downforce without speed, the two need each other to function correctly. Adding toe-out seems to counter the entry problems with braking and initial turn in without adding the usual mid corner grip problems associated with higher toe out angles.

I don't think camber by itself it is ever going to make huge differences in terms of speed but there are definitely benefits to be found that could make the difference when every tenth counts

 

[Motor City Hami]

Camber by itself doesn't really do anything useful, it needs to be used in conjunction with toe settings to get improvements.

I still don't understand what this means. Can you expand on this more? So if we add camber to my Viper tune, what also needs to change in toe settings to make camber work? Help me a bit here. I really don't know which way to move the levers to test this.

 

[Bowtie-muscle]

I am not sure about the toe/camber working totally together. On my Viper, I felt more stability and slightly more grip using camber, lowering or zeroing felt like sport hard or medium tires. However, I was tuning a '00 Z06 yesterday that has been in the works since 1.08, it still uses 0.0/0.0 camber and I will NOT add it either. For the new seasonal, I built a GSX-R4 with 0.0 camber and it did not like camber either. Car/track selection may be involved, maybe not. I still believe it is only a tool to help the tune, not fix it or necessarily make it faster on it's own. Had we used a different track with this Viper, 0.0 camber may have been faster. I still do not think it is totally where it should be, only closer and now usable. If Hami sticks to not using it, he may very well beat us again in the next challenge. Jury is still deliberating.

 

[Lionheart2113]

One example I have down regarding TOE...
Rear TOE = Mainly used for corner exit.
Rear TOE Increase (IN) - Helps from center>off. Too much tightens the car and can struggle getting down to apex on turn in. If this is used, Front Camber increase will help with entry to corner.

Rear TOE is what I wanted for my Viper on corner exit, but I had to use front camber to combat the negative side of using rear TOE. Does that help?

 

[DolHaus]

I still don't understand what this means. Can you expand on this more? So if we add camber to my Viper tune, what also needs to change in toe settings to make camber work? Help me a bit here. I really don't know which way to move the levers to test this.

Ok, first thing to consider is what the the camber is doing in relation to toe. The easiest way of visualising this is to look at how a motorbike turns corners by leaning (camber thrust), if you want to turn left you lean onto the left side of the tyre and then the wheels follow along an arc.
With negative camber the wheels are leaning onto their inside edge and therefore trying to turn towards each other, this is very similar to the effect of Toe In. In the same way as setting Toe In, this means you get improved mid corner grip at the cost of initial turn in and responsiveness.
To counteract this we need to add Toe Out to straighten the lines of travel for the set of wheels we are adjusting, we are basically looking to find 0.00 again.

These numbers are mostly just to illustrate the point

(Front)
0.0 Camber / 0.00 Toe = Wheels pointing straight ahead (Neutral)
0.0 Camber / 0.14 Toe = Wheels pointing in towards each other (better mid corner grip/reduced initial response)
1.0 Camber / 0.00 Toe = Wheels pointing in towards each other (better mid corner grip/reduced initial response)
1.0 Camber /-0.14 Toe = Wheels pointing straight ahead (Neutral)

 

[Lionheart2113]

Ok, first thing to consider is what the the camber is doing in relation to toe. The easiest way of visualising this is to look at how a motorbike turns corners by leaning (camber thrust), if you want to turn left you lean onto the left side of the tyre and then the wheels follow along an arc.
With negative camber the wheels are leaning onto their inside edge and therefore trying to turn towards each other, this is very similar to the effect of Toe In. In the same way as setting Toe In, this means you get improved mid corner grip at the cost of initial turn in and responsiveness.
To counteract this we need to add Toe Out to straighten the lines of travel for the set of wheels we are adjusting, we are basically looking to find 0.00 again.

These numbers are mostly just to illustrate the point

(Front)
0.0 Camber / 0.00 Toe = Wheels pointing straight ahead (Neutral)
0.0 Camber / 0.14 Toe = Wheels pointing in towards each other (better mid corner grip/reduced initial response)
1.0 Camber / 0.00 Toe = Wheels pointing in towards each other (better mid corner grip/reduced initial response)
1.0 Camber /-0.14 Toe = Wheels pointing straight ahead (Neutral)

Well 🤬 My notes say the exact opposite of all of this!

I agree with @Bowtie-muscle more and more challenges will start to show a pattern...hopefully!

 

[Motor City Hami]

@DolHaus - I'm not going to talk real world with you. It is not relevant.

With the numbers that you posted, it looks as if this is trying to use toe to offset cambers negative effects in a straight line? How do you optimize camber in the corner at full weight transfer and with some steering input?

 

[Motor City Hami]

If Hami sticks to not using it, he may very well beat us again in the next challenge. Jury is still deliberating.

Not sure I am the expert post 1.09. Many others spending much more time with the game than I get to in the summer.

Besides, I am seventh in this competition.

 

[Bowtie-muscle]

@DolHaus , I somewhat get what you are trying to say/explain, but not sure it's not over thinking it. There has to be a reason why PD changed to 0.5/1.5 camber and 0.0/0.60 toe as default. No one with mediocre tuning ability would pull those settings out of the bag. It has to be a bandaid for a code issue or they are trying to make it easier to use certain difficult cars for the casual gamer. Hami once said we are over thinking it and giving PD too much credit and I agree. This challenge was a good first step but we need another similar challenge, 1 car 1 track but smooth and fast. Twin Motegi or Silverstone, that type of track and camber may hurt more than help. Should stick with FR drivetrain with a lower pp. I have been finding, the lower the pp, the less camber needs or should be used. Might just be me though and you see where my tune is in this challenge.

 

[Bowtie-muscle]

Not sure I am the expert post 1.09. Many others spending much more time with the game than I get to in the summer.

Besides, I am seventh in this competition.

You still are and will continue to be The Professor around here for myself and many others until someone proves otherwise. Lack of time to test has you behind others in testing, not knowledge Sir. You sure about 7th, believe that would be me.

 

[GTP_CargoRatt]

Camber by itself doesn't really do anything useful, it needs to be used in conjunction with toe settings to get improvements. The improvements are small but you can really change the characteristics of a car by balancing the front/rear camber and toe.
Once you get it in the right range in terms of angle you can feel the benefits but the range is quite tight. You really have to concentrate on it though as the effects are very subtle, you need to do a lot of testing to feel when the angles are working correctly. You can feel the car gaining and loosing grip as the load changes through a corner, the idea is to keep making small adjustments until it is gaining more than it is losing.
Toe settings are definitely key, running camber without adjusting toe is like running downforce without speed, the two need each other to function correctly. Adding toe-out seems to counter the entry problems with braking and initial turn in without adding the usual mid corner grip problems associated with higher toe out angles.

I don't think camber by itself it is ever going to make huge differences in terms of speed but there are definitely benefits to be found that could make the difference when every tenth counts

This whole post says it all. This is exactly what my testing and findings show also. I have felt this way from the very beginning when camber was fixed and what I have been trying to continually say and convey. Regardless of what the naysayers say, I will continue using camber in my tunes as it has shown me to be a beneficial asset in my tuning. While it may not net me lap time gains in every tune I do, it has never cost me time and in those instances where times seem to be the same, it still makes the car that much more better to drive handling wise. I guess this is a case of, you go your way and I'll go mine.

 

[Bowtie-muscle]

This whole post says it all. This is exactly what my testing and findings show also. I have felt this way from the very beginning when camber was fixed and what I have been trying to continually say and convey. Regardless of what the naysayers say, I will continue using camber in my tunes as it has shown me to be a beneficial asset in my tuning. While it may not net me lap time gains in every tune I do, it has never cost me time and in those instances where times seem to be the same, it still makes the car that more better to drive. I guess this is a case of, you go your way and I'll go mine.

Cargo we really need to see you join a challenge as your time attack/trial tunes or some of the best here on GTPanet. I agree camber has benefits but do not believe it is where it should be. Would love to see your tune reviewed vs the others here. Besides, what is 1 more tuner ahead of me going to hurt

 

[Otaliema]

Times input from @brian wolf here are the new current standings.
Lap time
1 @Lionheart2113 1:24.627 +00.000
2 @oppositelock 1:24.890 +00.263
3 @xande1959 1:24.963 +00.335
4 @brian wolf 1:25.172 +00.545
5 @Otaliema 1:25.245 +00.618
Drivers Choice
1 @xande1959 8.840
2 @Lionheart2113 8.720
3 @oppositelock 8.600
4 @Motor City Hami 8.600
5 @brian wolf 8.400

As far as camber goes I'm still getting the hang of it. What i'm noticing thinking about the way the vipers handled and I noticed during tuning, is that every person that has an opinion on how camber is working has part of it correct, and no body has everything correct, and by mashing bits and pieces of how camber is working might just be the answer.
It's clear that camber is at least not hurting the tunes. But also no one ran 0/0 in this so direct comparison in this challenge.

If no one minds I'll host a new one car one track challenge every two weeks for a while so we can really work this out. Compared to the STi vs Evo challenge this was a snooze I figured out what I need on the scoring sheet to sort out the issues. If this is something that is desisred I'll start a suggestion thread on track/car combo's so we can have a steady stream of challenges that can be put together quickly and easily. They wont over lap long plan challenges like the one that @Ronald6 is planning currently.

 

[xande1959]

Not sure I am the expert post 1.09. Many others spending much more time with the game than I get to in the summer.

Besides, I am seventh in this competition.

. instead, be patient, I run over the guy.

 

[Bowtie-muscle]

Times input from @brian wolf here are the new current standings.
Lap time
1 @Lionheart2113 1:24.627 +00.000
2 @oppositelock 1:24.890 +00.263
3 @xande1959 1:24.963 +00.335
4 @brian wolf 1:25.172 +00.545
5 @Otaliema 1:25.245 +00.618
Drivers Choice
1 @xande1959 8.840
2 @Lionheart2113 8.720
3 @oppositelock 8.600
4 @Motor City Hami 8.600
5 @brian wolf 8.400

As far as camber goes I'm still getting the hang of it. What i'm noticing thinking about the way the vipers handled and I noticed during tuning, is that every person that has an opinion on how camber is working has part of it correct, and no body has everything correct, and by mashing bits and pieces of how camber is working might just be the answer.
It's clear that camber is at least not hurting the tunes. But also no one ran 0/0 in this so direct comparison in this challenge.

If no one minds I'll host a new one car one track challenge every two weeks for a while so we can really work this out. Compared to the STi vs Evo challenge this was a snooze I figured out what I need on the scoring sheet to sort out the issues. If this is something that is desisred I'll start a suggestion thread on track/car combo's so we can have a steady stream of challenges that can be put together quickly and easily. They wont over lap long plan challenges like the one that @Ronald6 is planning currently.

Gran turismo S @ Twin Motegi East? or is it South?.....550pp Sport Medium? How does this sound. I have yet to drive that car in GT6.

 

[xande1959]

Times input from @brian wolf here are the new current standings.
Lap time
1 @Lionheart2113 1:24.627 +00.000
2 @oppositelock 1:24.890 +00.263
3 @xande1959 1:24.963 +00.335
4 @brian wolf 1:25.172 +00.545
5 @Otaliema 1:25.245 +00.618
Drivers Choice
1 @xande1959 8.840
2 @Lionheart2113 8.720
3 @oppositelock 8.600
4 @Motor City Hami 8.600
5 @brian wolf 8.400

As far as camber goes I'm still getting the hang of it. What i'm noticing thinking about the way the vipers handled and I noticed during tuning, is that every person that has an opinion on how camber is working has part of it correct, and no body has everything correct, and by mashing bits and pieces of how camber is working might just be the answer.
It's clear that camber is at least not hurting the tunes. But also no one ran 0/0 in this so direct comparison in this challenge.

If no one minds I'll host a new one car one track challenge every two weeks for a while so we can really work this out. Compared to the STi vs Evo challenge this was a snooze I figured out what I need on the scoring sheet to sort out the issues. If this is something that is desisred I'll start a suggestion thread on track/car combo's so we can have a steady stream of challenges that can be put together quickly and easily. They wont over lap long plan challenges like the one that @Ronald6 is planning currently.

- camber will always be necessary.
even when the game or recent update does not show., my tunings, are based, tire wear / fuel consumption (Fast), online at least 10 laps.
camber angle (+ F) / (-R) toe angle (-F) / (R +) but have cars that do not accept these procedures,👍

 

[Otaliema]

Gran turismo S @ Twin Motegi East? or is it South?.....550pp Sport Medium? How does this sound. I have yet to drive that car in GT6.

ugg Masatrati at a flat track are you asking to spin out could be fun. I do think it will be a good test bed tho.
Just tossing an idea we start low and work up?
say 450 pp FF car to start go up 50 to 75 pp and change drive train with each testing challenge so we can establish a pattern on the tunes. Based on what @xande1959 has said sounds like camber may have it's best use in the enduro races, which with current FITT rules would be hard to test so might have to get the FITT council blessing for some online testing, maybe a static host room from someone that has a spare PS3 or doesn't play a ton so wont miss out on play time.

 

[DolHaus]

@DolHaus - I'm not going to talk real world with you. It is not relevant.

With the numbers that you posted, it looks as if this is trying to use toe to offset cambers negative effects in a straight line? How do you optimize camber in the corner at full weight transfer and with some steering input?

I'm not talking real world, I'm talking in game, I only use real life examples because they are easier to visualise and explain.

Its just angles, that's all camber and toe are. Change one angle and you are going to have to adjust the other to suit it.

I use rear camber to adjust stability, front camber to adjust handling.
If I add front camber I add a relative amount of Toe Out to counteract the negative effects of camber on entry so I can better utilise the increased grip in mid corner. On their own Camber is giving me more mid corner grip but less responsiveness and Toe Out is giving me sharper turn in but reduced mid corner grip, use the two together and you get both benefits with less overall loss.

I'm trying to find the ratio between camber and toe adjustments but its going to take time, there is definitely a pattern there though. When you add camber, you essentially move where the 0.00 position of toe is. Once discovered it should make setting the initial angles easier to set.

You'd normally start tuning a car at 0.00/0.00 to get an honest feel for the car, right? Then from there you'd start to adjust your springs/dampers etc, to find the best balance, you tend to adjust one thing at a time to isolate the effects.
The problem with adjusting camber at the moment is that it is changing two things at once which makes it hard to pin down actual improvements. If I can find the relative changes (ie. If you were to add X front camber you would need to set Y toe) then it would be much easier to zero in where the improvements lie.

 

[Bowtie-muscle]

ugg Masatrati at a flat track are you asking to spin out could be fun. I do think it will be a good test bed tho.
Just tossing an idea we start low and work up?
say 450 pp FF car to start go up 50 to 75 pp and change drive train with each testing challenge so we can establish a pattern on the tunes. Based on what @xande1959 has said sounds like camber may have it's best use in the enduro races, which with current FITT rules would be hard to test so might have to get some the FITT councle blessing for some online testing, maybe a static host room from someone that has a spare PS3 or doesn't play a ton so wont miss out on play time.

Fair enough, but sticking with FR for now might be best. FR-S/GT86/BRZ @ 450PP? maybe S2000 or be really brave and try the Solstice?

 

[shaunm80]

Gran turismo S @ Twin Motegi East? or is it South?.....550pp Sport Medium? How does this sound. I have yet to drive that car in GT6.

I Like the idea of the Maserati for a one make car tune. That car is fun