FITT - Federation of International Tuners and Test-Drivers

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Myself and @DaBomm4 are currently determining if the z28 is going to be banned. It looks as if it will be but the euro and jdm cars may be what allows it to stay given that my stock for stock testing put the 240z 8 seconds behind the z28 with over a 100pp deficit. And i personally havent tested any euro cars yet.
 
Myself and @DaBomm4 are currently determining if the z28 is going to be banned. It looks as if it will be but the euro and jdm cars may be what allows it to stay given that my stock for stock testing put the 240z 8 seconds behind the z28 with over a 100pp deficit. And i personally havent tested any euro cars yet.
same tires? if yes the Z28 is going to need handicapping, or the rest of the American cars will need boosting...
 
Myself and @DaBomm4 are currently determining if the z28 is going to be banned. It looks as if it will be but the euro and jdm cars may be what allows it to stay given that my stock for stock testing put the 240z 8 seconds behind the z28 with over a 100pp deficit. And i personally havent tested any euro cars yet.
I've tuned all the American cars your talking about using, and without question would use the Z28 (even with a handicap) over all the others. But I enjoy it more so that would make sense.

Would be curious to hear a JDM and Euro list.
 
Rough time of year right now, lack of those willing to commit to testing. As usual.:indiff:
Challenges held after mid November have a tough time getting testers. it's just what happens at this time of the year. I can tell you the 4 day difference from when we were talking in here to when the Toge challenge posted made a serious difference for me personally, kept me out of group 2 for tuning and will limit my testing time to group 2 only.
Agreed on the time of year but this is more based on experience with trying to organise testing many times before, people are happy to give you half a dozen laps in a few cars but to get balancing right you need consistent and accurate data and that means more of a time commitment than people are prepared to give.
Myself and @DaBomm4 are currently determining if the z28 is going to be banned. It looks as if it will be but the euro and jdm cars may be what allows it to stay given that my stock for stock testing put the 240z 8 seconds behind the z28 with over a 100pp deficit. And i personally havent tested any euro cars yet.
The Z28, C3 Corvette and GT40 are all a league above
 
Agreed on the time of year but this is more based on experience with trying to organise testing many times before, people are happy to give you half a dozen laps in a few cars but to get balancing right you need consistent and accurate data and that means more of a time commitment than people are prepared to give.

The Z28, C3 Corvette and GT40 are all a league above
I agree TOTALLY, on both comments mentioned.👍
 
The only way to cure rabbit fever is to make them run on lesser tyres, hammer their PP down or a combination of both until they turn lap times competitive with the rest of the crowd.
I'd certainly like to see the under 2.0 litre class run on stickier rubber as I'm sure, back in the Trans-Am days, if a race was 10,15,20, whatever laps long, someone running a 800-900kg Alfa or Datsun would've run better tyres compared to someone in a 1300-1400kg Camaro, Cuda etc.. That had to make their tyres last the race distance.
 
The only way to cure rabbit fever is to make them run on lesser tyres, hammer their PP down or a combination of both until they turn lap times competitive with the rest of the crowd.
I'd certainly like to see the under 2.0 litre class run on stickier rubber as I'm sure, back in the Trans-Am days, if a race was 10,15,20, whatever laps long, someone running a 800-900kg Alfa or Datsun would've run better tyres compared to someone in a 1300-1400kg Camaro, Cuda etc.. That had to make their tyres last the race distance.

In all honesty the lighter car shouldn't need the extra traction, the only clear regs I found on tires is the were required to have a tread depth(before race wear) of no less than 1/10" so the most any car would run is SS tires and that they were not allowed to be more than 1" taller or wider than factory without presenting a safety concern. Now the only reason I haven't proposed a <2.0 L class is in the format we have and the way the PP rating system is setup I see no reason a >2.0 l 500pp car would be so much faster than a <2.0l 500pp car that it would require a separation atleast not in this medium.
 
Ok, likes here, How many of you would be interested in a 2nd class and the 2 classes would be

They would be as follows.
Class A:
7 litre < (7000cc or less)
500pp*
SS tyres*
Limiter >95%

Class B:
3.5 litre< (3500cc or less)
450pp**
SH Tyres**
Limiter >95%

* Ghosts/ Rabbits will be either 475pp or SM Tyres, with a minimum of 50kg in the location of your choosing.

** Ghosts/Rabbits will be either 425pp or CS Tyres, with a minimum os 35kg in the location of your choosing.

The weight minimum is a regardless deal meaning you choose PP or Tyres and either way you add the weight.

Both groups will be tested at Apricot Hill and the standard scoring system in place.

Still in preliminary testing but looking at previous posts and the few (I'm going to say international cars since I am from the US) international cars that fit the previous regs and and some come close and others do not. Though I would like to point out some cars will be eligible for both classes meaning you can enter a <3500cc car in Class A if you feel it is competitive and meets 500pp. Class A has no minimum Displacement.
 
In all honesty I can't understand your thinking around the tyres.
I've been following motor racing for a very long time & what I haven't seen live, I've read about it or watched it on DVD.
Never, ever have I seen a lighter car take a harder compound with less grip and more durability than a heavier (outright) car unless the heavier car was planning on a sprint strategy by splitting the race into two halves with a planned Pitstop for new rubber halfway through. It just doesn't make sense. Why would a serious competitor finish a race with tyrewear still up his sleeve? You wouldn't want them down to the canvass but at the same time you wouldn't plan on using them again either. They're throw away items after the checkered flag.

If you want a well tuned little car to be able to nip at the heels of an average big car, swap the tyre regs or they haven't got a snowflake's chance in hell!

Besides all that, 0-2000cc & 2001-6000cc have now become >3500cc & 3501-7000cc.

????
 
Well, as for the tyres IRL if the cars were competing against each other across classes I can see using a softer grippier compound on a lighter less tyre abusing car but they typically weren't in direct competition across classes. Meaning you are competing with cars that are close to the same weight as you and trying to get the same advantages as you.

The displacement change is simply because there are very few cars for example a 240zg is not eligible in the <2.0l class but is not competitive in the >2.0l, partially because it maxes at 489pp and with the 2.4 litre's lack of power, producing 294hp maxed it seems unfair to require that car to be ineligible in the class it can be competitive in without being overpowered and requiring it to compete with cars that very quickly produce 2 and 3 times the power at similar PP levels. So using a lower class of 3.5l or 3500cc allows for a wider diversity in the lower class.


I assure you this isn't going to be a hodge podge. I'm not just throwing rules out to mess everything up. I'm Comparing the car selection we have to the original classes and adapting them to suit our car selection.

That said I do appreciate the criticism. I am finding that organizing my thoughts into a cohesive event is not as easy as would be expected.
 
Keep refining. Sounds intresting, you may be on to something.

About 3 minutes ago I was starting to agree with you but, the rabbits are multipltying or one of our rabbits is just alot easier to drive because I tuned a Z28 using a tune based heavily on my GT350 tune (both cars are similar size and HP so stands to reason tunes wouldn't be severely different) and the two are right at 1.5 sec apart with me going full retard at the wheel of the Shelby, sliding and whatnot.
 
About 3 minutes ago I was starting to agree with you but, the rabbits are multipltying or one of our rabbits is just alot easier to drive because I tuned a Z28 using a tune based heavily on my GT350 tune (both cars are similar size and HP so stands to reason tunes wouldn't be severely different) and the two are right at 1.5 sec apart with me going full retard at the wheel of the Shelby, sliding and whatnot.
Organizing & balancing a FITT comp with more than one car is never easy.
As you're finding out, it requires a lot of time, testing & refining.
 
Yes, Now with what I have found so far my best course of action to Maintain my sanity, the integrity of the events nature and keep it easy on the testers is to scrap my classes and pick 3 cars for each of the original classes, meaning at most a tester would buy/tune 6 cars.

I have already found the three for the >2 litre class and it is funny because it's a rivalry that is as old as motor sports it's self it seems.

The >2litre cars are
AAR Cuda
Z28 Camaro
Shelby GT350(non R)

500pp
SS Tyres

all three are within 2 seconds of each other with basic tunes at 500pp, though I should mention the GT350 was a prior tune I had finish that was part of my inspiration on this event.

<2.0l cars
Bellett 1600GT-R
Celica 1600GT
Galant GTO MR

450pp
SH Tyres

Questions, comments or random cursing of my name?
 
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Yes, Now with what I have found so far my best course of action to Maintain my sanity, the integrity of the events nature and keep it easy on the testers is to scrap my classes and pick 3 cars for each of the original classes, meaning at most a tester would buy/tune 6 cars.

I have already found the three for the >2 litre class and it is funny because it's a rivalry that is as old as motor sports it's self it seems.

The >2litre cars are
AAR Cuda
Z28 Camaro
Shelby GT350(non R)

500pp
SS Tyres

all three are within 2 seconds of each other with basic tunes at 500pp, though I should mention the GT350 was a prior tune I had finish that was part of my inspiration on this event.

<2.0l cars
Bellett 1600GT-R
Celica 1600GT
Galant GTO MR

450pp
SH Tyres

Questions, comments or random cursing of my name?
Curiosity got the better of me & I had to do a quick comparison.
I ran the Cuda in absolute stock condition on CS tyres around Laguna Seca for a 1:49:xxx. Swapped over to the Alfa GTA 1600 on SH tyres in absolute stock condition and lapped in 1:50:xxx.
Tried the Shelby GT350 in the same condition and the first flying lap was a 1:46:xxx.
In stock form, the Cuda & Alfa were a lot closer than I imagined.
Of course they're all standard & that leaves a lot of tuning available. Cuda being a 3-speed, Shelby a 4-speed & Alfa a 5-speed.
If they're all allowed a 5-speed with optimized ratios, those gaps will probably blow out a bit. More so on a different track.
 
Did you try the '71 Mustang in place of the Shelby?

I haven't, only because I knew the Shelby and the AAR had very good chances of keeping pace with the Z28. It's apparent to me now that more cars means more issues. Just to compare the Mach 1 and a couple others would have required the fc trans on a factory basis because it's out of wind at 110mph. That said The line up listed should make for some interesting results.

Curiosity got the better of me & I had to do a quick comparison.
I ran the Cuda in absolute stock condition on CS tyres around Laguna Seca for a 1:49:xxx. Swapped over to the Alfa GTA 1600 on SH tyres in absolute stock condition and lapped in 1:50:xxx.
Tried the Shelby GT350 in the same condition and the first flying lap was a 1:46:xxx.
In stock form, the Cuda & Alfa were a lot closer than I imagined.
Of course they're all standard & that leaves a lot of tuning available. Cuda being a 3-speed, Shelby a 4-speed & Alfa a 5-speed.
If they're all allowed a 5-speed with optimized ratios, those gaps will probably blow out a bit. More so on a different track.

They all will be allowed 5 speeds and trans tuning. Seeing the Cuda lay times right with the Z28 factory even with a 3 speed tells me tuning will even this playing field. The GT350 was the same story.

I forgot the track would still be Apricot Hill.
 
Round 1: GT350 '65 vs Camaro SS '69
GT350: 500pp
Deep Forest rev - 1:21.728
Silverstone National - 59.771

Camaro SS: 500pp
Deep Forest rev - 1:21.077
Silverstone National - 1:00.138

Track choice would depend on which car is better, over all they are both close.

Round 2: Camaro Z28 '69 vs GT350R '65
Camaro Z28: 525pp
Deep Forest rev - 1:19.363
Silverstone National - 58.095

GT350R: 525pp
Deep Forest rev - 1:20.394
Silverstone National - 58.775

Not even close, but that might be my tune for the GT350R.

Here is a little testing that @Bowtie-muscle did with his tunes, I couldn't improve on the time gap any, and I tried. Just a little fruit for thought. He has done a lot of testing with his tunes at different tracks, if you haven't visited his shop, I would encourage you to, enlightening, to say the least. Like your idea and admire your determination, just trying to help.
 
It would be fantastic! but I think they would have to have redo the caluation a bit. I think the biggest factor is the Aero G's the cars get from body design not being counted correctly.
Not likely, the 69 Camaro SS and Z28 Should be the same once you add full custom suspension and extremely close stock. They are far apart so Aero would not explain the difference. Modeled grip is the difference, they require different setups and cannot run similar lap times at the same pp level on the same tires.

Oddly enough, take the '00 and '04 Z06. They too should be very similar if Not totally the same suspension wise, yet I have found the '00 to have more grip. Unless it's just me.

'69 Vettes similar issue regarding grip.
 
Aero isn't really the problem, it might not be very accurate or sophisticated but at least its fairly consistent in application. In most track situations the speed you'll be hitting at the end of the straight is defined by the speed you carried out of the previous corner rather than your drag coefficient
 
Aero isn't really the problem, it might not be very accurate or sophisticated but at least its fairly consistent in application. In most track situations the speed you'll be hitting at the end of the straight is defined by the speed you carried out of the previous corner rather than your drag coefficient
IMO I think that speed at the end of a straight is more determined by power than anything else. I can get cars to with in a couple km/h at the breaking point, even with in a 10-15 km/h entrance difference, if it's a race car even more so, the "giant" wings and flat floor seem to pretty well set top speed at X for X power for a given distance. It's just a matter of how fast can you get the car to that speed, thats what determines the lap time.
 
IMO I think that speed at the end of a straight is more determined by power than anything else. I can get cars to with in a couple km/h at the breaking point, even with in a 10-15 km/h entrance difference, if it's a race car even more so, the "giant" wings and flat floor seem to pretty well set top speed at X for X power for a given distance. It's just a matter of how fast can you get the car to that speed, thats what determines the lap time.
Its definitely related to power but that should come as no surprise, low weight only really counts towards acceleration at low speeds. Low weight means you need less energy to get it moving but once the object is moving and momentum takes over it takes very little energy to keep it moving, now the main enemy is the air you've got to push out of the way and thats where it all comes down to power. The missing part of the equation is the aerodynamic qualities of the car, I suspect they use a simplified model based on the vehicles height and width with a modifier based on the type of car (ie. a barn fronted muscle car will be less efficient than a low nosed supercar with similar power). Downforce related parts are a modifiable variable based on the shown numbers but are constant in application (ie. a mustang and a camaro will both be producing the same relative amount of downforce/drag when wing set at 20).

If the majority of lap time is spent going in a straight line then reducing the amount of time spent on the straights will give you the advantage, if you're spending more time in the corners then that's where the gains lie
 
a barn fronted muscle car will be less efficient than a low nosed supercar with similar power)

Exactly.
However, how this is applied to "evening-up" cars in a class is overlooked. Simple over-power in a car in the past has resulted in handicaps. If you remember waaaaay back the Z28 wasn't even allowed in the same clasd because of overpower. And at low PP levels, I still see that as needed. But at 500pp-ish, that overpower means jack squat. Because here now you have the same cars as before, but the 'boxy' ones now have the power they needed to compete. But the 'squareness' also acts as a wind deturrent when breaking. (It stops with less effort).
How a car handles on the end of straight through the apex, is never looked at, only the apex on out. (it seems)

Anyway, enough of that b/s. I just popped in to say HI to everyone. I have been tuning a lot lately and having a blast. Took a 6-7 month break, but thats long over now.
How is everyone doing?
 
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